Speaker recommendation for HT/Music - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 07-11-2013, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone - I am really new to this and looking for some help on purchasing speakers for HT and music.

Here is what it currently looks like:
TV Room Size - 15 x 18 with cathedral ceilings
The current bose speakers are installed at 9 ft above ground level and they are Bose Direct/Reflecting® cube speaker arrays. There were left by previous home owner (we just bought the home). I know many do not speak highly of bose but I will eventually replace these down the line. I just need to get something now to build on.
See pics of room attached. I know some will think this room is not ideal and I understand but for now this is what it is. I plan on building a real HT/Game room Man cave down the road in my 3rd floor eventually. So please don't recommend I change rooms now wink.gif. I will consider room treatments if you recommend them.

With that said, this room will always have a TV in it despite my future plan for HT in 3rd floor. So I need help selecting speakers that are not to bulky and out of the way as much as possible without sacrificing too much sound for HT and Music. I know that HT has many different requirements than music playing so I would need an optimal balance for both.

I plan on purchasing the Denon X4000 but do not know where to go with speakers as it seems its an even more saturated market than receivers are and I had a very hard time deciding on the denon. BTW, I am open to changing receivers if it makes sense money wise in order to get better speakers.

My Budget will not be unlimited but I would like to have recommendations on 3 levels if possible. What would you buy if you had:
1. A Tight Budget up to 3000
2. Balanced budget up to 5000
3. High Budget up to 10000

The reason for this is I might end up using some of this equip (if possible for the real HT down the road). If this is not possible due to my restrictions with the aesthetics, size and WAF....then so be it. I still would like to know what he high end equip would cost. Keep in mind I don't need to get everything at once...i can build on each piece. I just want the best value possible.

Thanks for you time,

Steven




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post #2 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 10:25 AM
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Unless you want the 4K Ultra HD processing in the Denon 4000, be sure to check out last year's Denon models. Usually they are on closeout pricing this time of year. Here is an overview of the xx13 series: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq#post_21995235

For subwoofers for your setup, look at subs from SVS Audio, Power Sound Audio, Rythmik, HSU Research, and Outlaw Audio. Then with your high end budget, the Seaton Submersive. These Internet direct subwoofer manufacturers typically provide the best price/performance value.

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post #3 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 10:35 AM
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If you plan on keeping your speakers that high up on the wall, make sure you plan your setup around using something like these wall mounts, which allow you to angle your speakers toward the listening position.

http://www.amazon.com/Pinpoint-AM-40B-Clamping-Bookshelf-Speaker/dp/B002UV03MW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1373650208&sr=8-2&

You can fit some pretty high quality monitor sized speakers on those mounts.

It looks like there is only 1 speaker mounted above your TV though?
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post #4 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Unless you want the 4K Ultra HD processing in the Denon 4000, be sure to check out last year's Denon models. Usually they are on closeout pricing this time of year. Here is an overview of the xx13 series: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq#post_21995235

For subwoofers for your setup, look at subs from SVS Audio, Power Sound Audio, Rythmik, HSU Research, and Outlaw Audio. Then with your high end budget, the Seaton Submersive. These Internet direct subwoofer manufacturers typically provide the best price/performance value.

Thank you. I will definitely look into last years denon models. Are there any major significant differences other than the 4K HD? Given how new I am to this, I thought the newer denon would help me the most with tweaking my sound?

I will look into those companies for the speakers. Any of these companies you mentioned (or others) specialize in small speakers with still that big sound?
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post #5 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 02:03 PM
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Nebulasworm,

If your fairly confident that the third floor hideout will be built, I would suggest that you plan your speaker purchase around that plan. Stick around the forum and learn about the various aspects of this hobby. You are willing to spend 10K over serveral years, so take your time. Stick with the Bose until you draw up the plans for the third floor. Buying the compromise speakers, will take money away from the speakers you would eventually want. Find a audio specialty store in your area and listen to a few brands.
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post #6 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

If you plan on keeping your speakers that high up on the wall, make sure you plan your setup around using something like these wall mounts, which allow you to angle your speakers toward the listening position.

http://www.amazon.com/Pinpoint-AM-40B-Clamping-Bookshelf-Speaker/dp/B002UV03MW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1373650208&sr=8-2&

You can fit some pretty high quality monitor sized speakers on those mounts.

It looks like there is only 1 speaker mounted above your TV though?

Yes I would like to keep them there unless there is an issue? There are two speakers and these are not above the TV. They are behind the couch and unfortunately not eqi-distant to the seating area. I may have to move one to the other end. They are positioned like this with respect to couch.


S -- -- -- -- - TV
|
|________
S
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post #7 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulasworm View Post

Are there any major significant differences other than the 4K HD?

Yes, X4000 has Audyssey XT32, which is a major upgrade over 3313CI with Audyssey XT.
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post #8 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulasworm View Post

Thank you. I will definitely look into last years denon models. Are there any major significant differences other than the 4K HD? Given how new I am to this, I thought the newer denon would help me the most with tweaking my sound?

This post discusses the differences in the new E series over the previous year. Batpig, who created this post and the other one I linked to, is considered the authority on Denon at AVS. Probably knows more than many Denon sales people smile.gif
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Originally Posted by nebulasworm View Post

I will look into those companies for the speakers. Any of these companies you mentioned (or others) specialize in small speakers with still that big sound?

Those Internet direct companies are the best for subwoofers. HSU does carry some very good bookshelf speakers, as does EMPTek, Arx, and Ascend Acoustics. Outlaw Audio has some speakers, but they are fairly pricey.

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post #9 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D_M View Post

Nebulasworm,

If your fairly confident that the third floor hideout will be built, I would suggest that you plan your speaker purchase around that plan. Stick around the forum and learn about the various aspects of this hobby. You are willing to spend 10K over serveral years, so take your time. Stick with the Bose until you draw up the plans for the third floor. Buying the compromise speakers, will take money away from the speakers you would eventually want. Find a audio specialty store in your area and listen to a few brands.

Thanks D_M - I will have to keep this room with TV and surround setup regardless so I would still like to get some speakers here for both HT and Music. So perhaps this would be the place for my low to mid budget speakers? The one requirement is that they need to look nice and try to be somewhat reasonable in size without sacrificing to much sound. The deck you see in picture and the kitchen (right next to room) are both wired with speakers as well so I would like to get them all controlled from this room along with speakers of its own.
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post #10 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

Yes, X4000 has Audyssey XT32, which is a major upgrade over 3313CI with Audyssey XT.

Yes. I am not sure how much more helpful this is over last years model but it appears the newer X4000 and last years model have some features, such as multizone, I would need to control my deck and kitchen speakers. Anyone doing this sort of thing? How does it work and is it easy?
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post #11 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

This post discusses the differences in the new E series over the previous year. Batpig, who created this post and the other one I linked to, is considered the authority on Denon at AVS. Probably knows more than many Denon sales people smile.gif
Those Internet direct companies are the best for subwoofers. HSU does carry some very good bookshelf speakers, as does EMPTek, Arx, and Ascend Acoustics. Outlaw Audio has some speakers, but they are fairly pricey.

Thanks cel4145. I will start looking into these companies and post back here with somethings I am considering.
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post #12 of 31 Old 07-12-2013, 05:39 PM
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Thought I'd chime in on the receiver as also. I decided on the Denon AVR X-2000 even after considering the discounted out of production models and am happy with it. I didn't need so many of the features in the other upper end new models. I wanted to be sure I still had 4k up-scaling and pass through to be sure I had future proofing. You might take a look at that as well. I will be upgrading my speakers soon as well so I'm interested in your options for speakers.
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-14-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Everyone - Started looking over some subwoofers from recommended companies. I have not finished looking through each companies products but I wanted to post some items I am considering. Let me know your thoughts.

Subwoofers - Is this the most important part of HT system? I heard this a few times but I wonder how much an impact it has on the music aside from the deep bass?

HSU VTF-1 MK2 Subwoofer 419
HSU ULS-15 Subwoofee 1199

SVS has free shipping on theirs
SVS PC12-NSD free shipping 749
SVS SB12-NSD free shipping 649
SVS SB-1000 free shipping 499

Power Sound Audio XS15 749

The Rythmik have some subwoofers that are ideal for music. What makes them ideal?
Rythimik E15 Direct Servo subwoofer 1349
Rythimik F15 Direct Servo subwoofer 1149 - Ideal for HT/music
Rythimik F12 Direct Servo subwoofer 874 - Ideal for HT/music Recommended for speakers with 5” woofers or larger.
Rythimik F12 Direct Servo subwoofer 999 - Signature Edition Ideal for HT/music

I heard outlaw audio has wireless capabilities? How does it work and is it good direction to head in if dont have an ideal spot I can wire to for the subwoofer?
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX 649
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus 549
Outlaw Audio The M8 Powered Subwoofer 299

That's it for now. I really cant tell what the important differences are between these subwoofers. If someone can weed out some while educating me that would help.

I head back to look at some speakers.

Thank you all for your help.
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-14-2013, 04:08 PM
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Outlaw Audio makes the OAW3 wireless system for use with subwoofers. You can get a discount on it if you buy an Outlaw sub, but you can buy it separately.

The most important thing first is to make sure you get a sub with enough SPL (output) for your room. Your room is pretty big with the cathedral ceilings. Does it have openings into other rooms?

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post #15 of 31 Old 07-14-2013, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Outlaw Audio makes the OAW3 wireless system for use with subwoofers. You can get a discount on it if you buy an Outlaw sub, but you can buy it separately.

The most important thing first is to make sure you get a sub with enough SPL (output) for your room. Your room is pretty big with the cathedral ceilings. Does it have openings into other rooms?

The room is open to the dinette and kitchen. You can see it in some of pics. There are no walls there and the cathedrals are above 9 ft.

I saw some sites claiming speakers for room size but forgot where I seen em. How will I know how much I need for this room? Does it make that much difference that the room is completely open to another?
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post #16 of 31 Old 07-14-2013, 04:29 PM
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Optimal performance from subs comes from when a sub can pressurize the air space. If your big room is open to other big rooms, that's really hard for a sub to do.

Consequently, I'd go with the Rythmik FV15HP ported sub or one of the big PSA subs if you can. For around $800, the PSA XV15, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, or HSU VTF-3 MK4. I'd forget the 12" Rythmik sealed subs all together.

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post #17 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Optimal performance from subs comes from when a sub can pressurize the air space. If your big room is open to other big rooms, that's really hard for a sub to do.

Consequently, I'd go with the Rythmik FV15HP ported sub or one of the big PSA subs if you can. For around $800, the PSA XV15, Outlaw LFM-1 EX, or HSU VTF-3 MK4. I'd forget the 12" Rythmik sealed subs all together.

Thanks cel4145. Can I ask what measurement are you looking at that tells you output (SPL)? Just trying to understand what things set these subwoofers apart from the others for you?
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post #18 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks cel4145. Can I ask what measurement are you looking at that tells you output (SPL)? Just trying to understand what things set these subwoofers apart from the others for you?

Measurements like the ones in this table and reading lots of reviews and testimonials. smile.gif

That, and if you build two subs with the same driver and amp, but one is optimized for sealed, and the other is optimized for a larger ported design, you will get more output out of the ported version. Thus why I would stay away from the 12" sealed Rythmiks.

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post #19 of 31 Old 07-17-2013, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Well - I've been looking over speakers the past few days and there seems to be alot more variety here. Not sure how much difference I would noticed if the all were in front of me playing but here is what I had time to look at.

**HSU**
HB-1 MK2 Horn Bookshelf Speaker 189/ea
HC-1 MK2 Horn Center Channel 259/ea

I noticed they sell this package.Not sure if its best to buy this way or if I would end up better off mix and matching.
Hybrid 3 - 5.1 $1,699.00
VTF-3 MK4
2 HB-1 MK2 Horn Bookshelf Speakers
1 HC-1 MK2 Horn Center Channel speaker

**EMPTek**
EMP Tek Cinema 5 Compact HT System ( how are these systems?) $649.00 System
E5Bi Bookshelf Speakers 225.00 PAIR
E41 Bookshelf Speakers 299.00 PAIR
E5Ci Center Channel Speaker 195.00 EACH

**Arx**
Anyone know what warranty these carry?
Arx A2c center / LCR loudspeaker 229.00 ea
Arx A3c floorstanding loudspeaker 539.00 pr

**Ascend Acoustics**
SIERRA-1 REFERENCE MONITOR 948 Pair
CBM-170 SE BOOKSHELF MONITOR 298/pair
HTM-200 SE HOME THEATER MONITOR 298/pair
CMT-340 SE CENTER CHANNEL SPEAKER 298/each
CMT-340 SE MINI-TOWER MONITOR 568/pair

**Outlaw Audio**
I did not see any speakers for sale here. They stated them as discontinued.

Will I be sacrificing alot buy going with bookshelves or smaller for the L/R instead of towers?

For subwoofers I only heard from one person. Can anyone else look at my list and give me recommendations? I am leaning towards FV15HP right now.

Thank you all.
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post #20 of 31 Old 07-19-2013, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Is anyone using OAW3 wireless system for use with subwoofers? Wondering if its worth it?
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post #21 of 31 Old 07-21-2013, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Everyone disappeared wink.gif
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post #22 of 31 Old 07-21-2013, 10:50 PM
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For subwoofer and wireless subwoofer connection discussions, you might want to try researching in the AVS subwoofer forum instead of the speaker forum. For instance, I know that the OAW3 has been discussed before.

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post #23 of 31 Old 07-22-2013, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

For subwoofer and wireless subwoofer connection discussions, you might want to try researching in the AVS subwoofer forum instead of the speaker forum. For instance, I know that the OAW3 has been discussed before.

Thanks. Apparently the wireless units work pretty good. Some have mentioned you lose a little volume but something like Audessey should compensate when you recalibrate again.

I am now leaning towards the FV15HP Subwoofer and Denon X4000. For speakers I am really struggling to strike a balance with the size, aesthetics and the quality of sound for HT and Music. My wife definitely does not want anything big and unpleasant looking. And Oh, and she does not want me to hang anymore speakers on walls eek.gif

Are there any ultra small speakers that might fit this bill? Everything I have seen so far has been modest in size to very large.
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post #24 of 31 Old 07-22-2013, 06:28 PM
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The thing is that small drivers in small speakers are not a great choice for room filling sound for an HT setup. If nothing else, small drivers will have trouble producing good midbass. If you can, fight for speakers with five or six inch drivers, and you definitely don't want little cubes.

However, one option which might be more aesthetically pleasing to the wife are NHT speakers. They make some of their models in white, so it would not be these hulking brown or black boxes on the wall.

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post #25 of 31 Old 07-22-2013, 09:13 PM
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One other thought. To make the wife happy, you might check out Funk Audio subwoofers. They come in a wide variety of finish options (she could choose). For example, here is their 15.3 subwoofer: 1 driver and two passive radiators, with many choices for her on what kind of stain. A little pricier than the Rythmik, but it might be worth it to make the wife happy smile.gif

Here is the discussion thread for Funk Audio: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1283555/funky-waves-audio-official-thread-prebuilt-and-custom-subs

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post #26 of 31 Old 07-23-2013, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I think I might be able to get the FV15HP if its better since it sitting on the floor. The real problem will be the speakers. I saw NHT's and they look decent and will show my wife later. However, I don't know how much I am sacrificing going with NHT versus something like the CBM-170 SE's? The sizes are not that different.

12" x 9" x 10" CBM-170 SE's
vs
12.125"Hx 7"Wx 8.875"D NHT Classic Two Bookshelf Speaker - White

Thank you for all your help here....
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post #27 of 31 Old 07-23-2013, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulasworm View Post

Thanks. I think I might be able to get the FV15HP if its better since it sitting on the floor. The real problem will be the speakers. I saw NHT's and they look decent and will show my wife later. However, I don't know how much I am sacrificing going with NHT versus something like the CBM-170 SE's? The sizes are not that different.

12" x 9" x 10" CBM-170 SE's
vs
12.125"Hx 7"Wx 8.875"D NHT Classic Two Bookshelf Speaker - White

Thank you for all your help here....

I don't think you'll be sacrificing anything with NHT. They're really good speakers and get great reviews. Maybe order both and see which ones you like best and send the others back.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
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post #28 of 31 Old 07-29-2013, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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After showing my wife the speakers I have been narrowing down, she apparently would prefer we go with Towers since they look much better. With that said, what do you guys think of these? Keep in mind I prefer both movies and music so I am not sure if the THX certified are bad in this case?

I got these from a thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers which has list of HT speakers and there ratings. Not sure how accurate but at least its something to help start me on.

Crystal Acoustics THX® Ultra2 Certified Special Edition TX-T3
Axiom Audio M50
Crystal Acoustics TX-T2 SE THX ULTRA2 Certified Floor-Standing
JBL Studio L890
Paradigm Monitor 11 Series 7
Aperion Audio Versus Grand


As always, your help is always appreciated.

Regards,

Steven
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post #29 of 31 Old 08-01-2013, 05:03 AM
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Inwalls or on walls for the living room.

What are the system goals besides "unobtrusive"?
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post #30 of 31 Old 08-01-2013, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Eyleron. No Inwalls or on Walls. Wife wanted unobtrusive but she liked the way the towers looked so much compared to the bookshelves that she is fine with floor standers. Only thing is we don't want them bulky and to overly huge.

Basic goals:
1. Great for movies although I doubt I would listen at reference level. That maybe too loud.
2. Good for music. Not really to much into Bass music but more acoustical, alternative, classic rock, etc.
3. Unobtrusive but i don't want to sacrifice sound to much for this. As mentioned, my wife already ok'd floor stander as long as they are not to bulky
4. Look nice. This will be in a family/living room where we will also entertain. I know the location is not ideal for HT but we have to work with what we have. I will be building a real HT in future in another area in house and buying equip for that as well.
5 I have considering the FV15HP Subwoofer. Given how open my space is, this was recommended by a few folks on this forum as a good sub for the area. see pics and details above of my room.
6. I am considering the Denon X4000 as the receiver. I think this has enough power for any of the speakers I choose but let me know if i am wrong here.

I still need to choose a center and I am getting around to looking at this but been busy with everything else plus real life. Also, right now I have some Bose satellite speakers (previous owner left them) up on the walls that I plan on using as the surrounds in the back until I have time to replace them.

Thanks for your help.
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Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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