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26K views 248 replies 88 participants last post by  Chevypower 
#1 ·
OK So please don't attack me. I'm in no way an audio noob, just a noob to the forum.


I've been working with music for about 15 years. I've DJed, produced, engineered, mixed CDs, etc. The best speakers I've heard to this date were Yorkville, but Mackies didn't come far behind. I actually never really owned anything Bose besides headphones. My mom had that clock cd radio thing everyone gets.


So now that I'm looking for a home theater the Bose Cinemate GS II or whatever the full name is really attracted my attention. I've heard them in the store before and I love them, and regardless of haters I probably will purchase. They're going for something like $600 now. I get it's not a real subwoofer, more of a module as Bose admits, but between what I want and what my future wife doesn't want (bulkiness all over the room), this seems to fit where I'm at.


I'm just curious how this hatred to Bose started. "No highs, no lows, must be Bose". It seems that people who WANT to be audiophiles are the ones really feeling this quote. Do real audiophiles eventually admit that besides the price tag attached, Bose is actually a decent brand, or is it a hatred till the end?


I understand you can get floor speakers, 7.1, a sick receiver, etc. and will have an absolutely amazing sounding movie-theater like home theater, but for someone looking to get a 2.1 system to keep the wife happy, who hates the look of Soundbars, etc., do audiophiles still attack this?


Just curious to hear opinions.
 
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#27 ·
I can vouch for the Energy 5.1 Take Classic. I installed one in my non-audiophile parents basement and I was pleasantly surprised at the sound quality of the system. Very nice for the money and Amazon has it on sale right now for $279.99. That's an amazing price for that system.
 
#28 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred#post_23537606


Bose makes some stylish systems that will appeal to women and that's a target market most of the other speaker mfrs ignore. They don't want wires, big speakers, bulky receivers and equipment, etc.


I have heard plenty of women ask about a Bose setup for their living room, they don't know any other brands. Shows how powerful their marketing is.


That Cinemate GS II the OP asked about doesn't need a AV Receiver, just an optical out from the TV if all the other devices are connected directly to the TV via HDMI.

I think you hit the nail on the head. As much as we would like to think that people care about sound quality, they just don't. If it sounds better than the TV speakers then they are happy. What sets Bose apart is ease of use and customer support. We can talk about how simple it is to set up a receiver with only HDMI inputs, 5 satellite speakers, 1 sub, and audyssey room correction but the simple fact is that most people don't want to go through even that much effort. Try explaining a crossover point to 99.5% of consumers and you will get a blank stare with absolutely 0 comprehension. They don't want options, they don't want choices, they don't want to do research. They want it to look good and be unobtrusive. Bose products look good. Their "receiver" that comes with their surroundsound systems is better looking to a non-techie than anything else on the market.


If SQ is not the top priority for you, which for most it is not, then Bose is exactly what you want. Though I can't prove it, I would venture to guess that many people who buy Bose products actually see them as being very high value because their priorities are aesthetics and ease of use.


I don't see a problem with making those types of products. My only issue with Bose is their willingness to attack any reviewer who doesn't write a glowing review of their products. Consumer Reports anyone?
 
#29 ·
Hi,


Here are some alternative to Bose that sound far better & have similar size/form factor:


1) Cambridge Audio Minx

2) Anthony Gallo A'Diva or Nucleus

3) Orb Audio

4) Cabasse

5) KEF E Series

6) Monitor Audio Mass


These are just a few & there are probably quite a few more options available in the US market as well. I currently have the Cambridge Audio Minx (Min20's/Min21's) & they are a world of difference from the Bose. You can get the satellites of your choice & get a decent ID branded subwoofer from the likes of SVS (SB12-NSD/SB1000) etc for even better value/performance.


Bazzy!
 
#30 ·
Don't mistake Cambridge soundworks from Massachusetts with Cambridge audio from UK.

2 different company's.
 
#31 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred#post_23539792


I think you hit the nail on the head. As much as we would like to think that people care about sound quality, they just don't. If it sounds better than the TV speakers then they are happy. What sets Bose apart is ease of use and customer support. We can talk about how simple it is to set up a receiver with only HDMI inputs, 5 satellite speakers, 1 sub, and audyssey room correction but the simple fact is that most people don't want to go through even that much effort. Try explaining a crossover point to 99.5% of consumers and you will get a blank stare with absolutely 0 comprehension. They don't want options, they don't want choices, they don't want to do research. They want it to look good and be unobtrusive. Bose products look good. Their "receiver" that comes with their surroundsound systems is better looking to a non-techie than anything else on the market.


If SQ is not the top priority for you, which for most it is not, then Bose is exactly what you want. Though I can't prove it, I would venture to guess that many people who buy Bose products actually see them as being very high value because their priorities are aesthetics and ease of use.


I don't see a problem with making those types of products. My only issue with Bose is their willingness to attack any reviewer who doesn't write a glowing review of their products. Consumer Reports anyone?

I agree with your points above, specifically that there is a market for very simple to use/connect systems and that not everyone values sound quality above all else. The problem I have with Bose (besides the litigious nature of the company you've pointed out) is that Bose positions itself through its marketing and pricing as a provider of high performance audio products, this combined with the fact the company refuses to publish specifications serves to rip off folks that really don't know any better. Their motto is "better sound through research" but should really be "home audio made simple" or "home audio your wife will approve" or something along those lines, I have a problem with the "better sound" part in particular. Heck, maybe their motto should be "better percieved sound through marketing"
. Speaking of motto's, you have to like Orb audio... "small speakers for smart people"
 
#32 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23540570


Their motto is "better sound through research" but should really be "home audio made simple" or "home audio your wife will approve" or something along those lines, I have a problem with the "better sound" part in particular. Heck, maybe their motto should be "better percieved sound through marketing"
To me, it has always been better sales through marketing rather than better sound through research.
 
#34 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23541636


I've always said exactly the same thing - better sales through marketing is the real phrase.
No, it's better profits...through hype.
 
#36 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23541835


I just found out that Dr. Bose passed last week. Makes me feel bad about what I've said said above. Oh well, by all accounts he was a brilliant man, RIP Dr. Bose.

On the human side of things, I am sorry for his family's loss.


From the consumer side, I could care less if Bose looses it's steam and dies out. They are brilliant at marketing quality that doesn't exist. I bet there are case studies done on this.
 
#37 ·
Bose may be the worst speaker in the world, except for kraco. They also have the best marketing in the US. If GM or Microsoft had their marketing group, they would be much bigger than they are now. Brilliant marketing, crappy speakers. If you listen to their car speakers, they are no better, but it sounds better because you're in a car with little airspace. Although their headphones seem ok, their $400 dollar clock alarm radio is a really bad joke. Anyone who thinks Bose systems sound good, has never heard a real system. Period.
 
#38 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally_br  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23542592


On the human side of things, I am sorry for his family's loss.


From the consumer side, I could care less if Bose looses it's steam and dies out. They are brilliant at marketing quality that doesn't exist. I bet there are case studies done on this.

Though I am far from a fan of Bose speakers, I would rather them stay in business but move towards actually following their motto. If they were to actually improve the sound quality of their products, the ease of use, extremely good customer support, and dealer network is already in place.
 
#39 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally_br  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23542592


On the human side of things, I am sorry for his family's loss.


From the consumer side, I could care less if Bose looses it's steam and dies out. They are brilliant at marketing quality that doesn't exist. I bet there are case studies done on this.

To be totally honest, one thing that bugs me about Bose is the smugness of some of its customers. The audio in my home theatre cannot be called high end by any stretch (especially given the standards of some folks here) but for less than $3500 I'm very happy with what I've put together, nothing was purchased used but I was able to get my speakers and AVR on sale. The $3500 happens to be in line with the cost of a top end "Bose Lifestyle System", and I've had a couple friends and colleagues comment that for that much money I was stupid to not get a Bose system, my favorite comment being "you don't need all those big ugly speakers for good sound, Bose sound just as good and look better"


I have an SVS PB-1000, Energy CF-50s, CC-10, CR-10's side surround, and CB-20s rear surround along with a Yamaha RXV 667 and Oppo 103 along with about $100 worth of the best monoprice speaker cables, HDMI cables and RCA cables, banana plugs etc . I'm very pleased with the sound of my set-up and don't think its unreasonable to say that it will absolutely destroy the best Bose system in every way except perhaps WAF. The best part is that I can easily upgrade as I see fit... perhaps an antimode, 2nd PB-1000, an ext. amp for the fronts etc.


Anyhow, seeing Bose go out of business would surely get rid of some of that smugness
.


It would be great if a company like Pioneer could put together a system (and market it) as a Bose killer for half the price. Start with a set of specially designed compact Andrew Jones speakers and a slim/compact form factor AVR with most connections of a full size model.
 
#40 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543190


To be totally honest, one thing that bugs me about Bose is the smugness of some of its customers. The audio in my home theatre cannot be called high end by any stretch (especially given the standards of some folks here) but for less than $3500 I'm very happy with what I've put together, nothing was purchased used but I was able to get my speakers and AVR on sale. The $3500 happens to be in line with the cost of a top end "Bose Lifestyle System", and I've had a couple friends and colleagues comment that for that much money I was stupid to not get a Bose system, my favorite comment being "you don't need all those big ugly speakers for good sound, Bose sound just as good and look better"


I have an SVS PB-1000, Energy CF-50s, CC-10, CR-10's side surround, and CB-20s rear surround along with a Yamaha RXV 667 and Oppo 103 along with about $100 worth of the best monoprice speaker cables, HDMI cables and RCA cables, banana plugs etc . I'm very pleased with the sound of my set-up and don't think its unreasonable to say that it will absolutely destroy the best Bose system in every way except perhaps WAF. The best part is that I can easily upgrade as I see fit... perhaps an antimode, 2nd PB-1000, an ext. amp for the fronts etc.


Anyhow, seeing Bose go out of business would surely get rid of some of that smugness
.


It would be great if a company like Pioneer could put together a system (and market it) as a Bose killer for half the price. Start with a set of specially designed compact Andrew Jones speakers and a slim/compact form factor AVR with most connections of a full size model.

I don't think that would work. People wrongly assume price=quality. I think you would need to price it 10-20% less than a comparable Bose product for people to believe they are competing products. I also think having Bose products in the same demo area as other brands in retail stores would be needed.


What would really help is if professional reviewer were able to give honest reviews of Bose products without fear of being sued for being honest.
 
#41 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543219



What would really help is if professional reviewer were able to give honest reviews of Bose products without fear of being sued for being honest.

+1
 
#42 ·
Hi All,


I have tried to convert/convince many a friend/colleague/relative to try out something other than Bose citing many of the numerous reasons & logic we are all aware of. It made little or no difference - despite very best efforts, they would only consider Bose.


It got me thinking why this was so, especially when many of these folks were very intelligent, rational & successful people! In the end I think I have figured out why - Bose gives them something that no other brand does according to both their thinking & feeling. It is the "Social" recognition, acceptance & approval that gives them the impression & validation that they have bought that which their peers feel is the best & "acceptable". They all have Bose & therefore, to be approved, get the nod, find alignment with etc - it has to be Bose & nothing else. They seem to get so much satisfaction from it you can see it on their faces when asked what speakers they have - even the wives - I have witnessed this many times myself. The look on their face when they say "Bose" is full of absolute conviction & they seem to await a response from you which will validate their thinking which in turn reinforces thing s even further!


It is rather like when rich folks buy "Rolex" watches just because all other rich people do thinking they are then are deemed equals, will be accepted & fit in rather buy something else they make actually like or prefer - not saying Rolex are bad by any means but just trying to draw a parallel!


This is where Bose has really succeeded to a level that no other speaker brand has & dare I say it, ever will - they have succeeded into getting into the "Social Mentality & Fabric" of classes of people into endearing their products quite vehemently & this then filters down from class to class backed up by the very best marketing models in the business. Some of them actually feel lacking personally if they do not buy certain brands - in in the speaker business, Bose is first in line by a long shot.


Bazzy!
 
#43 ·
Bose wouldn't be bad or hated if they were priced right. Most of their speaker systems are on or near par with most HTiB systems offered in stores, but they cost so much more.


If a 5.1 bose system with those cube speakers and the Acoustimass bass module and a receiver were $300. If someone said I want surround sound but I don't need anything too good and the smaller the better so the wife lets me have it, I would recommend the Bose.


The thing that kills me is that the 5.1 V25 Lifestyle system is $2,500...... I have a 7.2 system with an Onkyo 808 AVR ( I paid $563 ) BIC Acoustech PL-89 7.0 speakers ( I paid $989) 2 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus subs ( I paid $998). That is a total of $2,550 and that is delivered to my house. You could put 10 of those Bose systems in my room and it still wouldn't even compare to my system.
 
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#44 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543704


I have tried to convert/convince many a friend/colleague/relative to try out something other than Bose citing many of the numerous reasons & logic we are all aware of. It made little or no difference - despite very best efforts, they would only consider Bose.
You can fool some of the people all of the time...
Abraham Lincoln.
 
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#45 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543219


I don't think that would work. People wrongly assume price=quality. I think you would need to price it 10-20% less than a comparable Bose product for people to believe they are competing products. I also think having Bose products in the same demo area as other brands in retail stores would be needed.


What would really help is if professional reviewer were able to give honest reviews of Bose products without fear of being sued for being honest.

You are probably right about the price vs. percieved quality issue...


OK, how about this...


A Pioneer "Elite" Branded HTIAB system.

Andrew Jones designed compact speakers but in real wood finishes

A slim full featured AVR with a matching slim blue ray / network player with wifi

A pair of compact powered sealed 10" subs (think a pair of mini SB-1000s)

Monoprice speaker and HDMI cables in the box


All for the low low price of $1999
 
#48 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543834


You are probably right about the price vs. percieved quality issue...


OK, how about this...


A Pioneer "Elite" Branded HTIAB system.

Andrew Jones designed compact speakers but in real wood finishes

A slim full featured AVR with a matching slim blue ray / network player with wifi

A pair of compact powered sealed 10" subs (think a pair of mini SB-1000s)

Monoprice speaker and HDMI cables in the box


All for the low low price of $1999

While I think most of us would love that system there are two major flaws in the mind of the average consumer (which basically means no one on avs)


1. The blu-ray player and receiver are two separate pieces


2. Two subs is very hard to sell when the vast majority of consumers want 0 subs.


I think one limitation other brands have is that they don't have the money to spend on dedicated endcaps and displays in stores like Bose does. Bose wants to keep their products as isolated as possible, lest people actually compare their products to their competitors.
 
#49 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA Beancounter  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543834


You are probably right about the price vs. percieved quality issue...


OK, how about this...


A Pioneer "Elite" Branded HTIAB system.

Andrew Jones designed compact speakers but in real wood finishes

A slim full featured AVR with a matching slim blue ray / network player with wifi

A pair of compact powered sealed 10" subs (think a pair of mini SB-1000s)

Monoprice speaker and HDMI cables in the box


All for the low low price of $1999

I dont think you realize how hard it is to get a compact speaker that will actually reach 80hz, and not have an incredibly low sensitivity (70 db range). The bose cubes are like 6" x 3" x 4", around 0.028 ft3 volume. The BS22 which only has a 4" woofer needs a box with 10 times the volume! It could of course be shrunk down some with an 80hz goal, but that should give you an idea of how impossible it really is to match the bose aesthetic and produce speakers that will do what we need them to do.
 
#50 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23544391


I dont think you realize how hard it is to get a compact speaker that will actually reach 80hz, and not have an incredibly low sensitivity (70 db range). The bose cubes are like 6" x 3" x 4", around 0.028 ft3 volume. The BS22 which only has a 4" woofer needs a box with 10 times the volume! It could of course be shrunk down some with an 80hz goal, but that should give you an idea of how impossible it really is to match the bose aesthetic and produce speakers that will do what we need them to do.

When I said compact I really meant as small as possible whilst still having reasonable sound. The idea of having two subs was in part to mitigate the impact of localization at a crossover point 80HZ or even 100HZ. I think the message to the average consumer would have to be that the Bose aesthetic cannot equal good sound.
 
#51 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy  /t/1482067/i-dont-get-the-bose-hatred/30#post_23543704


It got me thinking why this was so, especially when many of these folks were very intelligent, rational & successful people! In the end I think I have figured out why - Bose gives them something that no other brand does according to both their thinking & feeling. It is the "Social" recognition, acceptance & approval that gives them the impression & validation that they have bought that which their peers feel is the best & "acceptable". They all have Bose & therefore, to be approved, get the nod, find alignment with etc - it has to be Bose & nothing else. They seem to get so much satisfaction from it you can see it on their faces when asked what speakers they have - even the wives - I have witnessed this many times myself. The look on their face when they say "Bose" is full of absolute conviction & they seem to await a response from you which will validate their thinking which in turn reinforces thing s even further!
Nailed it! I think you are right.
 
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