Will Parasound Halo A 51 drive B&W 802 Diamonds ??? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 75 Old 08-10-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I would expect a bit more power but more importantly a bit more current capability. Also the Macs tend to be on the warmer side as far as amps go which should mesh well with the Diamonds (or Kef Reference for that matter). Don't get me wrong, the Parasound Halos are extremely capable amps and not bright either. We are talking diminishing returns, but returns never the less.
Riiiiiiiiight............rolleyes.gif

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post #32 of 75 Old 08-10-2013, 07:46 PM
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Riiiiiiiiight............rolleyes.gif

Now, now, there are 2 sides to every story. And Jim is just giving his side. biggrin.gif
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post #33 of 75 Old 08-11-2013, 02:15 PM
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A story cannot supplant fact.tongue.gif

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post #34 of 75 Old 08-13-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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But having said that, if I could go back in time, I probably wouldn't buy a lot of speakers, including the 802D2, simply because of the high cost and lack of space. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

You have really cool pics on photobucket - i really like the "TWELVE" pic - that is simply amazing. But i can't tell what your current speakers are. Also, out of the twelve speakers, where did the 802 D2 rank? What were your thoughts on them compared to your current favorite speaker.

thanks

B&W 802 Diamond mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center, B&W 804 Diamond surrounds, Parasound HALO A 51, Krell KAV-300i , Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro, two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs, Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65" plasma
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post #35 of 75 Old 08-13-2013, 03:32 PM
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A story cannot supplant fact.tongue.gif

I typically stay out of these amps sound different vs all well made amps sound the same but it surprises me that the amps are the same camp seems to be at least from my perspective under the impression that science has advanced to the point we know how the human brain works in all aspects including how it interacts with the other parts of the body, in this case the human ear and that this is such a common place thing that people have the knowledge to build components to perfectly mimic how the human brain interprets the audio picked up via the ear and somehow compensates for any and all differences in individual's hearing. Phew, long sentence smile.gif I can't help but laugh at that as science is no where near understanding the intricacies of the human brain and the human body. I'm not saying the blind, double blind, etc. tests are flawed and that when people are put to the test those who think they hear differences can't because well, they can't smile.gif but what I don't like to see is reports that the amps do in fact all produce the same sound. That we can not test, not truly, we can only design components to measure based on what science can achieve at present and people must at least accept the fact that the human brain/ear interaction is far more complex, capable and accurate then any device that can be designed at present resulting in human hearing being far more accurate then any device. Just food for thought. This is a science forum after all so we can't dismiss what we can't achieve because it's an inconvenience in these arguments.

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post #36 of 75 Old 08-13-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I typically stay out of these amps sound different vs all well made amps sound the same but it surprises me that the amps are the same camp seems to be at least from my perspective under the impression that science has advanced to the point we know how the human brain works in all aspects including how it interacts with the other parts of the body, in this case the human ear and that this is such a common place thing that people have the knowledge to build components to perfectly mimic how the human brain interprets the audio picked up via the ear and somehow compensates for any and all differences in individual's hearing. Phew, long sentence smile.gif I can't help but laugh at that as science is no where near understanding the intricacies of the human brain and the human body. I'm not saying the blind, double blind, etc. tests are flawed and that when people are put to the test those who think they hear differences can't because well, they can't smile.gif but what I don't like to see is reports that the amps do in fact all produce the same sound. That we can not test, not truly, we can only design components to measure based on what science can achieve at present and people must at least accept the fact that the human brain/ear interaction is far more complex, capable and accurate then any device that can be designed at present resulting in human hearing being far more accurate then any device. Just food for thought. This is a science forum after all so we can't dismiss what we can't achieve because it's an inconvenience in these arguments.

You wouldn't by any chance be a lawyer eek.gif?

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post #37 of 75 Old 08-13-2013, 05:06 PM
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You wouldn't by any chance be a lawyer eek.gif?

lol... nope, although I wouldn't mind the salary that goes with that, then I could buy some nice $40K speaker cables made from gold and silver tongue.gif

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post #38 of 75 Old 08-13-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

You have really cool pics on photobucket - i really like the "TWELVE" pic - that is simply amazing. But i can't tell what your current speakers are. Also, out of the twelve speakers, where did the 802 D2 rank? What were your thoughts on them compared to your current favorite speaker.

thanks

Naturally my favorite 3 speakers are Salon2, 802D2, and 201/2. biggrin.gif

I could be happy with any of the 3 brands. wink.gif

But if I didn't have to get towers - if I could get anything, I would get five KEF 201/2 piano black + five Funk 18.0 unpowered piano black. biggrin.gif
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post #39 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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What did you like about 201/2 over 802 D2? Also, why not get towers?

thanks!

B&W 802 Diamond mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center, B&W 804 Diamond surrounds, Parasound HALO A 51, Krell KAV-300i , Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro, two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs, Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65" plasma
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post #40 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

What did you like about 201/2 over 802 D2? Also, why not get towers?

thanks!

I won't say it's because of sound quality. biggrin.gif

I've compared them many times. They both sound great to my ears.

Obviously some people claim the KEF sounds better, while others claim the B&W sounds better. You won't see such claims from me.

I paid $12K for two 802D2 speaker.

I paid $9K for six 201/2 speakers. I paid $750 for each of the five RBH Signature SX-1010N subs or $3750 total. So that's under $13K for six 201/2 + five SX-1010N subs.

Objectively, the 201/2 has the edge. it is one of the best measured speakers ever. The 201/2 measures +/-1dB on-axis, butter smooth off-axis, and everything else almost textbook perfect.

The 802D2 is like +/-3dB on-axis with crappy off-axis, but great everything else. biggrin.gif

How does the bass of the two 802D2 speakers compare to the bass of five SX-1010N? Not even close. The SX-1010's bass is just as accurate and tight, but has more output and dynamic punch than even the 800D2.

So I think five 201/2 on stands atop five SX-1010N subs will kick the a$$e$ of any single-cabinet tower I've heard.

But that's my opinion. biggrin.gif
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post #41 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for really insightful replies - you seem very knowledgeable about this stuff.

OK - i heave read some more about B&W, especially Diamond, especially 800 and 802 Diamond, and it seems they can be harsh with mp3s of dubious bit rates as well as Pandora etc. To be honest, if i can't find a really high quality mp3 of a favorite track, i'm not one to stop listening to it. I will keep listening to it over and over. I don't go out and search for SACD or any other nonsense like that because artists i like (Nero, Bassnectar, Massive Attack etc) don't get on that stuff. I like what i like and if i can't find 320 kbps then i still listen to 180 kbps.

But i still like idea of towers - not sure why - i just like towers i guess. But i will get two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs.

Sooo .... I think i may have given up on B&W diamonds.

I have read very good things about Kef Reference and their measured response. I love look of 205/2. What do you think of those with my two JL f113?

thanks a bunch

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post #42 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 12:34 PM
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I have the 205/2s and twin JL subs would be sweet although I would go F112s. You may want to consider ID subs also, others can chime in more knowledgeable on ID subs.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #43 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry - you posted that earlier - I should have quoted your post and asked you.
so i'll ask you - how do you like your Kef Ref 205/2 with subpar mp3s (250 kbps), Pandora etc?

Also, what is ID and why ID over JL?

thanks!!

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post #44 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Thanks for really insightful replies - you seem very knowledgeable about this stuff.

OK - i heave read some more about B&W, especially Diamond, especially 800 and 802 Diamond, and it seems they can be harsh with mp3s of dubious bit rates as well as Pandora etc. To be honest, if i can't find a really high quality mp3 of a favorite track, i'm not one to stop listening to it. I will keep listening to it over and over. I don't go out and search for SACD or any other nonsense like that because artists i like (Nero, Bassnectar, Massive Attack etc) don't get on that stuff. I like what i like and if i can't find 320 kbps then i still listen to 180 kbps.

But i still like idea of towers - not sure why - i just like towers i guess. But i will get two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs.

Sooo .... I think i may have given up on B&W diamonds.

I have read very good things about Kef Reference and their measured response. I love look of 205/2. What do you think of those with my two JL f113?

thanks a bunch

Not all MP3s are created equal. Some are great, some are bad. It's the same w/ WAV, FLAC, ALAC, SACD, etc.

I've played plenty of MP3s w/ the 802D2. If the MP3 sounds great, it sounds great w/ 802D, Salon2, KEF 201/2, etc. if the MP3 is harsh or bright or edgy, or bad, it will sound bad with all these speakers, not just the B&W.
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post #45 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

sorry - you posted that earlier - I should have quoted your post and asked you.
so i'll ask you - how do you like your Kef Ref 205/2 with subpar mp3s (250 kbps), Pandora etc?

Also, what is ID and why ID over JL?

thanks!!

JL will be just fine, but ID brands offer better bang for your buck.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

As you see, the $1K HSU is just as good as the JL F112 from 40-63Hz, and 11 dB more than the JL @ 20Hz!
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post #46 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

JL will be just fine, but ID brands offer better bang for your buck.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$1022 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$1,400 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8

As you see, the $1K HSU is just as good as the JL F112 from 40-63Hz, and 11 dB more than the JL @ 20Hz!


But isn't there other subwoofer qualities that may or may not be in specs - i'm not sure what the correct descriptor is: dynamics? how fast the sub can change from one frequency to the next - how crisply it changes frequencies - stops one beat and starts another.

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post #47 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not all MP3s are created equal. Some are great, some are bad. It's the same w/ WAV, FLAC, ALAC, SACD, etc.

I've played plenty of MP3s w/ the 802D2. If the MP3 sounds great, it sounds great w/ 802D, Salon2, KEF 201/2, etc. if the MP3 is harsh or bright or edgy, or bad, it will sound bad with all these speakers, not just the B&W.

now I am back to 802 D2 frown.gif

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post #48 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 03:50 PM
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now I am back to 802 D2 frown.gif

It's perfectly normal to go back and forth. It's is a huge purchase, so better be sure. biggrin.gif

It's like, what do you weigh?

The actual sound quality can be excellent with these. Subjectively, the bass will differ, but the midrange and tweeter may be equally great. The aesthetic is different. The price is different. The Objective measurements will favor the KEF & Revel. The pro reviews will favor the Revel and KEF because their measurements are superb.

Dealer cost for KEF Reference2 is 50%, Revel Ultima2 is 45%, and B&W Diamond is like 35%, so you could negotiate a much better price on KEF Ref.

So what factors are more important to you?

Aesthetic ?

Measurements?

Pro reviews?

Price?

Also keep in the those $3000/pr diamond tweeters are extremely fragile. The B&W delivery guy actually broke one of the Diamond tweeters on my 1st 802. I refused the set and demanded a brand new pair. biggrin.gif

The Revel Studio2 has a lot more bass than 802D2 and KEF 205/2 IMO.

Revel Ultima2 uses Beryllium tweeters and Titanium midrange and woofers.

KEF Ref uses Titanium tweeters/midrange and paper cone woofers.

As far as cost, Diamond > Beryllium > Titanium.

Diamonds are like $3-4K/pair. Beryllium is like $ 1.6K/pr. Titanium a few hundred dollars.
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post #49 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 03:54 PM
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Electrostatic speakers are notoriously hard to drive, but my A 51 drives my Martin Logans just fine, so I'm sure it will drive 802s.

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post #50 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not all MP3s are created equal. Some are great, some are bad. It's the same w/ WAV, FLAC, ALAC, SACD, etc.

I've played plenty of MP3s w/ the 802D2. If the MP3 sounds great, it sounds great w/ 802D, Salon2, KEF 201/2, etc. if the MP3 is harsh or bright or edgy, or bad, it will sound bad with all these speakers, not just the B&W.
Agree, recording is more important than resolution but a good recording and high res smile.gif The Studio2s were slightly more forgiving than the 205/2s but only slightly. Bad recordings sound bad. If you want forgiving then Aperion Verus Grand Towers would be such. Actually the amp (and your A51) play slightly into this. Better amp less harsh, you should be good. Have not heard the 802D2s so don't know how to gauge that.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #51 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 06:59 PM
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But isn't there other subwoofer qualities that may or may not be in specs - i'm not sure what the correct descriptor is: dynamics? how fast the sub can change from one frequency to the next - how crisply it changes frequencies - stops one beat and starts another.

Accuracy (THD), dampening/tightness (Q-value of 0.5 is tight, > 1.0 not tight), power compression, output are all important.

That's why CEA measurements take THD, power compression, & output into consideration - to make it a fair comparison.

After you listen to a bunch of subs like JL, Velodyne, REL, SVS, Rythmik, HSU, Funk, you will realize that it really comes down to power compression and pure dynamic output.

What do you want from the bass? Tight, punchy, snappy, forceful?

Believe it when most people say that ID subs outperform B&M subs. It's true.

That doesn't mean B&M subs like JL, Velodyne, & B&W subs won't please you or aren't punchy and tight enough for you. They are still great.
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post #52 of 75 Old 08-14-2013, 09:18 PM
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Today I've been listening and comparing my speakers.

Revel Salon2 in 2.0 (MSRP $22K)
B&W 802D2 in 2.0 (MSRP $15K)
Linkwitz Orion3 in 2.0 (MSRP $10K)
KEF 201/2 + RBH SX-1010N in 2.2 (MSRP $8.4K)

I unequivocally preferred the 2.2 setup over all the 2.0 tower setup 100% of the time. No contest.

Going back to 2.0 towers was unpleasant. It seemed anemic in comparison to the 2.2 setup.

The KEF + Funk was even better. biggrin.gif
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post #53 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Today I've been listening and comparing my speakers.

Revel Salon2 in 2.0 (MSRP $22K)
B&W 802D2 in 2.0 (MSRP $15K)
Linkwitz Orion3 in 2.0 (MSRP $10K)
KEF 201/2 + RBH SX-1010N in 2.2 (MSRP $8.4K)

I unequivocally preferred the 2.2 setup over all the 2.0 tower setup 100% of the time. No contest.

Going back to 2.0 towers was unpleasant. It seemed anemic in comparison to the 2.2 setup.

The KEF + Funk was even better. biggrin.gif

Nice tight bass with the RBH. Welcome to the dark side (using sub with two channel.) smile.gif

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post #54 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 08:16 AM
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Nice tight bass with the RBH. Welcome to the dark side (using sub with two channel.) smile.gif

The SX-1010 has very musical tight bass.

I was pleasantly surprised when I first auditioned the T2 (which uses the 1010-sub).

At the time I was also auditioning B&W 800D & Revel Salon2, which have good bass. But those T2's bass just totally kicked the crap out of the Salon2 & 800D's bass. Not even a close fight. So musical, tight, punchy, forceful.

I thought the T2's midrange & tweeter were no better or worse than the Salon2 & 800D's midrange & tweeter. But the T2's bass was just magnificent. So I just had to have them. The problem was, the old 1010-sub was just UGLY. biggrin.gif

Thank goodness RBH came out with the SX-series, which looked 100% better. biggrin.gif

So now I have five SX-1010N (& two Funk-18N). biggrin.gif
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post #55 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's perfectly normal to go back and forth. It's is a huge purchase, so better be sure. biggrin.gif

It's like, what do you weigh?

The actual sound quality can be excellent with these. Subjectively, the bass will differ, but the midrange and tweeter may be equally great. The aesthetic is different. The price is different. The Objective measurements will favor the KEF & Revel. The pro reviews will favor the Revel and KEF because their measurements are superb.

Dealer cost for KEF Reference2 is 50%, Revel Ultima2 is 45%, and B&W Diamond is like 35%, so you could negotiate a much better price on KEF Ref.

So what factors are more important to you?

Aesthetic ?

Measurements?

Pro reviews?

Price?

Also keep in the those $3000/pr diamond tweeters are extremely fragile. The B&W delivery guy actually broke one of the Diamond tweeters on my 1st 802. I refused the set and demanded a brand new pair. biggrin.gif

The Revel Studio2 has a lot more bass than 802D2 and KEF 205/2 IMO.

Revel Ultima2 uses Beryllium tweeters and Titanium midrange and woofers.

KEF Ref uses Titanium tweeters/midrange and paper cone woofers.

As far as cost, Diamond > Beryllium > Titanium.

Diamonds are like $3-4K/pair. Beryllium is like $ 1.6K/pr. Titanium a few hundred dollars.


I guess this order:

- good pro reviews,
- awesome looks (it is in the eye of the beholder i guess),
- good sound even with mp3s, Pandora etc (but i do play CDs once in a while - i'm not buying a turntable - sorry),
- able to sound good with movies and center channel and two subs,
- good measurements,
- price.

A super fragile part (B&W tweeter) gives me pause. But i think i would be careful enough not to damage over many years.

Unfortunately, I like look of B&W 802 D2 the best but i am afraid i will like sound of Kef Ref or Revel or Aerial better with sub standard mp3s - that is my dilemma.
I don't really like look of Revel but i think i need to look at them some more. They didn't seem "beautiful".
Yes yes - i have to audition - i will go soon - it's a hike.

B&W 802 Diamond mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center, B&W 804 Diamond surrounds, Parasound HALO A 51, Krell KAV-300i , Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro, two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs, Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65" plasma
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post #56 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bwv1080 View Post

Electrostatic speakers are notoriously hard to drive, but my A 51 drives my Martin Logans just fine, so I'm sure it will drive 802s.

cool - thanks fellow Halo owner smile.gif

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post #57 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Agree, recording is more important than resolution but a good recording and high res smile.gif The Studio2s were slightly more forgiving than the 205/2s but only slightly. Bad recordings sound bad. If you want forgiving then Aperion Verus Grand Towers would be such. Actually the amp (and your A51) play slightly into this. Better amp less harsh, you should be good. Have not heard the 802D2s so don't know how to gauge that.

Good to know that 205/2 sounded ok with mp3s (prob more forgiving than 802 D2).
I have not looked into Aperion - i will check them out.
thanks for advice

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post #58 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Accuracy (THD), dampening/tightness (Q-value of 0.5 is tight, > 1.0 not tight), power compression, output are all important.

That's why CEA measurements take THD, power compression, & output into consideration - to make it a fair comparison.

After you listen to a bunch of subs like JL, Velodyne, REL, SVS, Rythmik, HSU, Funk, you will realize that it really comes down to power compression and pure dynamic output.

What do you want from the bass? Tight, punchy, snappy, forceful?

Believe it when most people say that ID subs outperform B&M subs. It's true.

That doesn't mean B&M subs like JL, Velodyne, & B&W subs won't please you or aren't punchy and tight enough for you. They are still great.

I want very musical bass. I think (i stress think because its a close call) that amazing low, forceful bass that smacks me out of my chair during a movie explosion is less important - i want good bass during movies but i think i want very musical, correct, tight bass for music even more. But i do want really deep, powerful bass. I just don't want flabby, cheap, deep, powerful bass. Does that make sense at all?

Price is not that big a factor. Looks are somewhat important - I don't want something HUGE! Fit and finish, build quality are very important - i.e. will it last forever. I dont really want to buy subs ever few years.

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post #59 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Today I've been listening and comparing my speakers.

Revel Salon2 in 2.0 (MSRP $22K)
B&W 802D2 in 2.0 (MSRP $15K)
Linkwitz Orion3 in 2.0 (MSRP $10K)
KEF 201/2 + RBH SX-1010N in 2.2 (MSRP $8.4K)

I unequivocally preferred the 2.2 setup over all the 2.0 tower setup 100% of the time. No contest.

Going back to 2.0 towers was unpleasant. It seemed anemic in comparison to the 2.2 setup.

The KEF + Funk was even better. biggrin.gif

But i want 2.2 as well - two subs. I am suggesting that a 2.2 setup **with towers** may (stress may) be better than 2.2 setup with minis on stands.

B&W 802 Diamond mains, B&W HTM2 Diamond center, B&W 804 Diamond surrounds, Parasound HALO A 51, Krell KAV-300i , Integra DHC-80.3 pre-pro, two JL Audio Fathom f113 subs, Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65" plasma
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post #60 of 75 Old 08-15-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

But i want 2.2 as well - two subs. I am suggesting that a 2.2 setup **with towers** may (stress may) be better than 2.2 setup with minis on stands.

Towers look better aesthetically than bookshelf.

Of course, towers + subs would be just as good. I don't think "better", but just as good.

And I know people who own 800D will say their tweeter & midrange sound better than the 802D's tweeter & midrange, which in turn is better than 803D's, etc. But I don't believe that at all because my ears tell me otherwise.

They also say the D2 (2nd Gen tweeter) sounds better than the D1 (1st Gen), which I don't believe either because that's what my ears tell me. biggrin.gif

But my point is, 2 bookshelf + 2 subs sounds just as good as 2 towers + 2 subs for a lot less money.

And 2 bookshelf + 4 subs is better than 2 towers + 2 subs. biggrin.gif

But, yeah, towers + subs would be great. Just costs a lot more. And they look better aesthetically.
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