Speaker imaging, I'm just not hearing it - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post

That may be why I was never impress with my kef xq midbass. I will try to move it a little further. Thanks
To paraphrase Roy Allison, speakers should be either very close to or very far from the wall in back of them. One benefit of in walls/flush mounting is that there is no Allison Effect when you do so.

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post #62 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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My Def. Tech Promonitor 1000's definetly image well. I agree that some speakers do this better than others. Wouldn't the levl of clarity/detail a speaker provides affect imaging as well?
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post #63 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

My Def. Tech Promonitor 1000's definetly image well. I agree that some speakers do this better than others. Wouldn't the levl of clarity/detail a speaker provides affect imaging as well?
One of the best imaging speakers I ever heard were some $75 Sony 2-ways that I used as nearfield monitors in my home recording studio control room. I don't give the credit to the speakers, I give it to the almost anechoic response of the room.

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post #64 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

To paraphrase Roy Allison, speakers should be either very close to or very far from the wall in back of them. One benefit of in walls/flush mounting is that there is no Allison Effect when you do so.

I have mine about 8" from the wall (circumstances require it). Is that close enough, or should I move them further back?

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post #65 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 06:37 PM
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The problem for the OP though is that one speaker has a wall behind it and the other one virtually doesn't to one whole side of it. No acoustic symmetry - two speakers that will sound different from each other.
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post #66 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 07:11 PM
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I believe imaging is about equal parts speaker and setup. I have been into audio for about 40 years. I have heard some good speakers that were improperly placed and sounded awful. I have also heard some speakers that were placed properly and did not image very well. I like having a sense that there is a live band or orchestra playing in my room. I currently use 6' tall dipolar ribbon speakers that are more sensitive to room placement than standard monopole speakers. I'd say I have them dialed in fairly well. I have had people over while playing 2 channel music and they are sure the vocals are coming from the center channel. Also sound coming from farther apart than the speakers are placed. Last but not least, a good recording makes a difference as well.

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post #67 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

I have mine about 8" from the wall (circumstances require it). Is that close enough, or should I move them further back?
I assume the back of the cab is 8" from the wall. If the cab is a foot deep that places the baffle 20" from the wall. 20" is 1/4 wavelength at 170Hz, so that's the center of the cancellation dip. If the baffle is a foot from the wall that's 1/4 wavelength at 280Hz. That will be a lot less noticeable than 170Hz or lower.
The alternative is to pull the speakers further away, putting the dip below their passband. That's a problem with towers that run full range. If you want to have the dip down at 35Hz the distance from the baffle to the wall would have to be 8 feet. But with a sub crossed at 80Hz and bookshelves on stands a four foot distance from the baffle to the wall puts the dip at 70Hz., below where the bookshelves function, while having the subs two feet from the wall places their dip at 140Hz, well above where they're working.
Another option with bookshelves is to make them true bookshelves, by placing them on shelves and surrounding them with books that come out to flush with the baffle, and then there's no dip.

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post #68 of 84 Old 08-09-2013, 09:48 PM
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When I up the speaker against the wall I loose that relax and spacious sound., kinda hard to explain. I pull the speaker out to about 6 feet from back wall, I get a more hallo graphic sound as apposite to against the wall. I can tell where the sound is coming from when against the wall. Sound field just collapse.
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post #69 of 84 Old 08-10-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I got a chance to play with speaker placement for a bit today. I pulled the towers a lot closer to me, placed them farther apart from each other, and toe'd them in. I feel like I get a "bigger" sound, but it still sounded like music was playing through the two speakers.

I got an interesting issue where the left speaker sounded louder than the right speaker, even when calibrated by Audyssey. It wasn't my ears (at least I don't think) because when I turned around, I hear more from the right ear. It doesn't seem to be the speakers either because I swapped speakers and the left speaker stilll sounded louder. I only had about 2 hours to play, so I didn't get much done. I'll see if I can find time next week to play with it some more.
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post #70 of 84 Old 08-10-2013, 01:53 PM
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LowerFE:
This has been my approach to improving "imaging"
Raise the ratio of Direct to Indirect Sound ( including addressing first reflection points ).
Using designs that minmize diffraction ( including non- rectilinear and Ovoid shaped cabs )
And Ultimately - Placing my drivers in-wall.

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post #71 of 84 Old 08-10-2013, 02:57 PM
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I used to own this speaker for about 2 years , toe then in,use the port plugs , place then as far as you can away from the back and side walls, I will said 2 feet away from back and side ,but that's if you can.

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post #72 of 84 Old 08-11-2013, 01:10 AM
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Any way you can get rid of that closet cabinet to the right? Also get a rug between you and the speakers to get rid of a lot of sound deflection coming at you. I would use at least one of the port plugs. I like my RC70's a lot more with one port plugged. Plugging two kills the bass too much imo. I have mine 1 foot from the back wall and they sound great with slight toe in

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post #73 of 84 Old 08-21-2013, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I have played with my speakers some more today. I have achieved some sort of imaging with my Paradigm Mini Monitors, but not my Energy RC-70, even though they're in the same position.

On my Mini Monitors, there is a very small sweet spot where I can hear the vocals in the center (somewhat). That only happens when I'm directly in the center of the 2 speakers, and have my head nodding down. If I have my head in the normal position looking forward, I don't get that imaging.

I might just have to live with no stereo imaging until I move out in a year or so.

Thanks for everyone's help.
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post #74 of 84 Old 08-21-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

That only happens when I'm directly in the center of the 2 speakers.
That's the only place it will happen. For the left/right sources to combine into a source perceived as being central the L/R must be heard at very close to exactly the same volume and phase. That occurs over a small area. It's easy to do with headphones, since they're always at exactly the same volume and phase. But if you listen to phones and pull one ear cup even slightly away from your ear imaging will be lost.

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post #75 of 84 Old 08-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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I have been reading this thread and also trying some of the advice posters have given. I tried 4 things with the front L&R speakers: 1) NO toe-in, 2) Toed-in with axis crossing 1' behind MLP, 3) Toed-in with axis crossing AT MLP, and 4) Toed-in with axis crossing 1' infront of MLP. For my speakers in my room they sound best toed-in with axis crossing 1' infront of MLP. This provides best stereo imaging at MLP and also on either side of the MLP, this due to the fact that even tho you move closer to one speaker it is angled away from you but the farther speaker is angled toward you. So even when I move 2 to 3' from the Center MLP the stereo image doesn't collapse to one side or the other. Also room is 15' W X 20' L X 8' H, speakers are kinda near the front corners but are 12" from side walls and 18" from front wall. Speakers are BIC Acoustech PL-89s so they have a horn loaded tweeter so maybe that is why I am getting these results.

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post #76 of 84 Old 05-13-2014, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to update the thread.

I have moved to a new room, and the new room has carpet floors and popcorn ceiling. In that room, with the speakers about 12 feet apart, I am getting imaging. If I sit at the sweet spot, I can hear fairly clearly that the voice is coming from the center. However, it seems the soundstage width is limited to the width of the speaker, and I can't really pinpoint the sound location from anywhere else besides the center. For example, in Bon Jovi songs, I hear the voice and the guitar coming from the same "location" in the soundstage. I expect to hear the voice and guitar in different locations.

The room is still not optimal. The right speaker is near a corner, while the left speaker's left side is a large opening which is the entrance to the living room from the other rooms. Also, Audyssey MultiEQ XT seems to mess up imaging, and leaving the receiver on pure direct gives a more pinpoint accurate image.

When I have time, I'll play with placements some more.
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post #77 of 84 Old 05-13-2014, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

In that room, with the speakers about 12 feet apart

And how far are you sitting from them?


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The room is still not optimal. The right speaker is near a corner, while the left speaker's left side is a large opening which is the entrance to the living room from the other rooms. Also, Audyssey MultiEQ XT seems to mess up imaging, and leaving the receiver on pure direct gives a more pinpoint accurate image.

When I have time, I'll play with placements some more.

You need to achieve more symmetry.
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post #78 of 84 Old 05-14-2014, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

And how far are you sitting from them?
You need to achieve more symmetry.

I'm sitting about 9 feet from the speakers.

What are you supposed to hear in pop music if you have proper imaging?
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post #79 of 84 Old 05-14-2014, 06:15 AM
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There is also the possiblitly that one or both of your speakers are wired incorrectly and could be out of phase. That will prevent a pair of speakers from imaging as they should. Make sure you have them wired correctly.
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post #80 of 84 Old 05-16-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowerFE View Post

I'm sitting about 9 feet from the speakers.

They may be a little too far apart then. The general going rule is that you are sitting at the same distance away from the speakers as they are apart from each other so you form an equilateral triangle. Personally I like the speakers slightly wider apart, so if I was sitting 9 feet away then I would probably have them 10 feet apart.


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What are you supposed to hear in pop music if you have proper imaging?

A lot of pop music is poorly recorded so that stuff will be a very mixed bag. I like a lot of jazz and folk and live recorded music and such. Soundstaging for me means the music being detached from the speaker rather than sounding like everything is coming from the speakers. Imaging as wide as the room I am in yet at the same time each individual instrument and vocal is tightly defined in its own space. For example the main vocalist in the centre of the stage needs to sound about the same size as if they were standing in the room in front of me. If their head sounds like it is 6 feet wide then something isn't right and I haven't got good enough of what is technically known as 'localisation'.
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post #81 of 84 Old 05-17-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

There is also the possiblitly that one or both of your speakers are wired incorrectly and could be out of phase. That will prevent a pair of speakers from imaging as they should. Make sure you have them wired correctly.

That is an excellent point. You'll never get a good image if the speakers are out of phase. I also agree with another poster that the speakers are probably too far apart. Also, the speaker itself may not be that good at imaging. Some are much better than others. Lastly, there is the room. It may require treatments to get the full benefit from the speakers.
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post #82 of 84 Old 05-18-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I played around some more, and I just can't get good imaging with Audyssey on. I have even tried hooking up both left and right channel to the left channel in an attempt to get Audyssey to apply the same EQ to both speakers (I like Dynamic EQ), but I just never got it to work.

Right now I have Audyssey off, and there is a solid centre image. It is a lot better than with Audyssey on, where even though the vocals do sound like it is coming from the centre, it is kinda faint, and I still hear some sound coming from the speakers. Now the vocals sound like it is coming completely in the centre.

I'm listening to more music, and most of the songs sound like the vocal and instrument is coming from the same center location. The only song I heard where this didn't happen is the live version of Hotel California. Is that how most songs are like?

I don't listen to much jazz or classical, so I can't really try them out for imaging
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post #83 of 84 Old 05-20-2014, 01:26 AM
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Jazz and classical probably benefit the most from good imaging. Sounds to me like you are trying to get an elephant to tap dance ....
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post #84 of 84 Old 05-20-2014, 10:58 AM
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More likely he is being confused by the thread itself. OP, imaging is defined as the placement of sound sources within a sound field. Imaging is created at the mixing console using the pan controls. These controls determine how much of the content of each track is heard from the left and right channels. Speakers don't have "imaging" as a performance parameter. They reproduce whatever imaging was mixed into the final recording. They may do this well or badly depending primarily on their placement and the acoustics of the listening room. If a clearly stereo recording arrives at your ears as a monaural or nearly monaural soundfield then the problem is not with the speakers themselves. It is probably due to reflections and/or cancellations arising from speaker placement and acoustics. Borrow a recording with clear imaging and play in on your system. Then fuss with placement to see if you can improve the quality of the sound field. If not, then work on room acoustics. Blaming it on the speakers isn't going to help anything. Good luck.
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