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post #1 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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!NEW PLAN!

Thanks to everyone here I have a 100% new idea of what I want to do. I will not be doing a 5.1 setup out the gate. I will be doing a 2.1 then adding sur and CC later down the road. I am also upping my budget to $800.00 for the L,R speakers. I have a Klipsch RW-12d 12 SUB in my storage and I know that I will need to upgrade that down the road too because of the size of the room. The system is for 90% movie/TV and gaming.

I have a 64.5" Sony XBR hx929 TV (not on the wall yet) and a Sony str-dn840 receiver. Now it's time for speakers. I would now like to do a 2.1 setup in this room (see pics).

The room is very large and I do not have a spot for towers. I want room filling sound with great movie performances out of a bookshelf size. I keep seeing that horn-loaded speakers are great for big open rooms.

Here are the speakers that are on the top of my list so far.

Klipsch Ref RB-81 II B (top pick so far)
Sierra-1
Definitive Tech SM65
Monitor Rx2,
Dana 630iLCR


New plan.




OLD BAD PLAN! You can see my speakers will not be on top of the built ins.







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post #2 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I should also add that I am in Seattle WA.
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post #3 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing I didnt put in my post. This is for 90% TV and movie watching 10% music.

Edit: Ok... after doing some more research I dont think that tower speakers in the rear are a good idea. However, correct me if I am wrong. I am now thinking that most of my $'s should be put into nice RCL and then bookshelf speakers on stands in the rear. Seeing as my rear speakers are going to be 16 feet away I dont think a wall mount speaker like a the SuperZero 2.0 will do the job.
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post #4 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 06:15 PM
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Based on that layout I would for now skip the rear speakers, especially since you're on a pretty tight budget. Maybe later install some in ceiling speakers for the surrounds.

What sub do you have? That's a really large room.

IMO I would get just the left and right for now. The speakers are close enough together and you sit far enough (too far by a lot) to need a center channel. You're better off running a "phantom" center which will happen automatically when using just the 2 main speakers or even if you add rears.

I would get a pair of these and use them laid over like a center channel.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html

Surrounds are meant to be to the sides of the LP not directly behind. Maybe you can place some stands on either side of the sofa?

Also, I would move the seating area up to about 10' for a 65" screen. I sit 9' from a 70" and it's still a tad too far actually.

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post #5 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice! My sub is a Klipsch RW-12d 12" that I got from a friend for 100 bucks! Do you think if i moved my seating area up to 10' a CC would come into play? The only way I could do speakers on stands on either side of the sofa would be if they were very sleek and small (wife).
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post #6 of 43 Old 08-13-2013, 08:06 PM
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At 10' with the speakers as close together as they are I still don't think you would miss a center channel.

As for sleek stands and speakers there are quite a few but you pay for that sleekness which would take you over budget.

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post #7 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so no CC needed. I really like the look, size and reviews on those speakers too. Should they be angled down toward the viewing area being that they are so high up?
Should the speaker on top of the built ins be on a pad of some kind to reduce vibration?
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post #8 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Are-Jay View Post

Ok so no CC needed. I really like the look, size and reviews on those speakers too. Should they be angled down toward the viewing area being that they are so high up?
Should the speaker on top of the built ins be on a pad of some kind to reduce vibration?

Yes, angle them down. And you can use some stick on rubber "feet" for isolation.

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post #9 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks you've been a huge help. I never even considered using two center channel speakers for my Lf Rf.
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post #10 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I was able to get my LP 8 feet from the tv. I also took out the tape measure and found that those speakers are going to be 107" apart, just under 9'. Is that still close enough to get a phantom center?
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post #11 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Based on that layout I would for now skip the rear speakers, especially since you're on a pretty tight budget. Maybe later install some in ceiling speakers for the surrounds.

What sub do you have? That's a really large room.

IMO I would get just the left and right for now. The speakers are close enough together and you sit far enough (too far by a lot) to need a center channel. You're better off running a "phantom" center which will happen automatically when using just the 2 main speakers or even if you add rears.

I would get a pair of these and use them laid over like a center channel.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html

Surrounds are meant to be to the sides of the LP not directly behind. Maybe you can place some stands on either side of the sofa?

Also, I would move the seating area up to about 10' for a 65" screen. I sit 9' from a 70" and it's still a tad too far actually.
At 10' from the speakers, with the speakers horizontal, every listener will be "off-axis" of one or both of the speakers. Even the listener in the middle will be "off-axis" of both of the speakers. An MTM horizontal, like the one you linked, will exhibit significant lobing off-axis, which will result in comb filtering and bad sound. Here is an article that describes the phenomenon:
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
I would advise against using a horizontal MTM for the L/R's for this reason. These would be much better: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html Angle them in towards the LP and tilt them down towards the LP.

Craig

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post #12 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Would I then need a CC or would I still be getting a "phantom" center from these? As an update my LP is now 8 feet from the TV (and speakers). My FL and FR are going to be just under 9' apart.
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post #13 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Are-Jay View Post

Would I then need a CC or would I still be getting a "phantom" center from these? As an update my LP is now 8 feet from the TV (and speakers). My FL and FR are going to be just under 9' apart.
You'll get a "phantom center channel", but only in one seat... the seat in the exact middle. The phantom center works because the information from the actual center channel is sent to both the L & R speakers. If you're sitting in the right spot, you hear the same CC info from both speakers and it arrives at the same time and the same level. Your brain interprets this as a sound coming from in between the two speakers, i.e., the enter channel. However, if you're off to the left or right, even a little, the arrival times and levels are different enough that your brain no longer "hears" the center channel. The phantom image collapses to the closer speaker.

So, yes, you'll get a phantom CC with those bookshelf speakers I linked, but you'll only get it in one specific seat, the one on the center-line, exactly in between the two speakers.

Craig

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post #14 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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How far apart should my FL and FR be? Those CBM-170 SE are only 9" wide, so they would be 110" apart or just over 9 feet. The Definitive Technology Mythos Three CC would can be be mounted under the hearth that is 6” deep. The CC would be eye level with the LP and 8 feet away. Because this system is going to be used for 90% TV, Movies and games its important to me that dialogue is natural and clear.
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post #15 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You'll get a "phantom center channel", but only in one seat... the seat in the exact middle.

So, yes, you'll get a phantom CC with those bookshelf speakers I linked, but you'll only get it in one specific seat, the one on the center-line, exactly in between the two speakers.

Craig

Not true. And this is from my own listening experience on 2 different setups. Both had the LR more than 8' apart and the listening/viewing position less than 10' and both using a 4 seat sofa.

In fact in my current room I sit directly in front of the front left speaker and watched an entire movie in stereo and only realized it was in stereo because of the lack of sound coming from the surrounds.

If the speakers image well then I am certain you will be able to sit in any seat on your sofa and have a good sound experience.

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post #16 of 43 Old 08-14-2013, 03:00 PM
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Not true. And this is from my own listening experience on 2 different setups. Both had the LR more than 8' apart and the listening/viewing position less than 10' and both using a 4 seat sofa.

In fact in my current room I sit directly in front of the front left speaker and watched an entire movie in stereo and only realized it was in stereo because of the lack of sound coming from the surrounds.

If the speakers image well then I am certain you will be able to sit in any seat on your sofa and have a good sound experience.

Not true. This works the same way 2-channel stereo works. When a recording engineer wants something to be "imaged" in the middle, between the 2 speakers, it gets mixed into both the L/R speakers at the same levels, (although reduced by 3 dB in each channel, which will be compensated for by being reproduced by 2 speakers on playback,) and with no time delays. However, the only way the listener gets to "hear" the central image is to sit on the center-line so that the levels and arrival times are the same. Otherwise, the Haas Effect, (aka the Precedence Effect) takes over and the central image is lost.

The recording Engineer can even play with slight delays in one channel vs. the other to "move" the phantom image around the soundstage:



But the effect still only "works" from the center-line listening position.

I can't explain your experience watching a movie and only noticing it was in stereo because the surrounds were off, but the Haas Effect is a well documented phenomenon. Look it up.

Craig

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post #17 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the help. I think to be on the safe side I am going to look for a CC and do a 3.1 system to start and then do in wall for the surrounds later down the road.
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post #18 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 12:44 PM
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Hi, Are-Jay,
Glad to see someone live close. I live in Mukilteo.
I’m not an expert or anything and mostly here to get some help. But here’s what I think based on my experience.

Speaker placement.

I used to hang my front speakers up on walls (6 or 7’ high) in the past but felt something was not right. I know many factors come in play. But even if the speakers were angled toward LP, It was weird hearing most sound effects coming from above when most of them should have been from directly front. If you care for realistic sound reproduction, I would place the front speakers on the floor. You can set up FL as close as possible to the built in bookshelf/cabinet. I rather take some sound reflections from the cabinet than all sound coming from over my head. You might have to scarifies some cabinet space. Once you set up the FL speaker this way, you won’t be able to open a couple of cabinet doors.

Front Speakers.

I used to own Ascent 340 SE. They are exceptionally good for movies. Very realistic sound. However you room is huge open to right side. My room was only 14’ by 13’. I would recommend Klipsch and floor standing speakers. Even if the Ascend can be played very loud without any distortion, I think it cannot beat Klipsch as far as dynamics goes and cannot beat floor standers for sound stage. My buddy has Klipsch floor standers and they are great for movies. Since your system is for 90% movie/TV and 10% music, Klipsch should work better. And you can find them used relatively easily from craigslist. Center speaker is a must for movie/TV, in my opinion.

Surround speakers.

Surround speakers greatly enhance your movie experience. Don’t skip it. Get a pair of $50 bookshelf from craigslist (preferably from same brand as front), and place them preferably on your side. Judging from your picture, SL can be placed a few feet behind the light stand. And SR can be rear, if side placement is not possible, but as far right corner as possible.
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post #19 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Not true. This works the same way 2-channel stereo works. When a recording engineer wants something to be "imaged" in the middle, between the 2 speakers, it gets mixed into both the L/R speakers at the same levels, (although reduced by 3 dB in each channel, which will be compensated for by being reproduced by 2 speakers on playback,) and with no time delays. However, the only way the listener gets to "hear" the central image is to sit on the center-line so that the levels and arrival times are the same. Otherwise, the Haas Effect, (aka the Precedence Effect) takes over and the central image is lost.

The recording Engineer can even play with slight delays in one channel vs. the other to "move" the phantom image around the soundstage:



But the effect still only "works" from the center-line listening position.

I can't explain your experience watching a movie and only noticing it was in stereo because the surrounds were off, but the Haas Effect is a well documented phenomenon. Look it up.

Craig

All I know is that when listening to 5.1 coded sound without a center channel, all the center channel info comes straight out of the screen even when sitting off to one side. The AVR apparently is smart enough to place center channel coded info exactly in the middle.

For the OP, I see he's going to get a center channel that will likely be a compromise and not be noticed wasting money on an already tight budget. Too bad.

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post #20 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to start off putting all my $ in L,R. I have talked my wife into letting me take the glass doors of the 2 built ins so I can put some nice Bookshelfs right in front of the LP. I am in the mean time going to get some input on a powerful yet slim CC that can be mounted under my hearth. This way if I feel the need for CC I will know what to get. In a few months down the road.
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post #21 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 02:18 PM
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May I recommend a speaker to look at? Since you've already got amazing responses about everything you've asked about listening position and setup.

Here are my recommendations.

Monitor Audio - RS1 or RX2 (used)
Dana - 630i
I think Cambridge Audio S30 is too small for your room but in your budget you might be able to do something with additional pairs.
Swan Diva (only problem is you'll need a lot of space behind them) The Audio Insider has them for half off!
KEF absolutely beautiful speakers and very highly regarded.
Infinity Primus - P163's would fill the room but they're my least favorite in my list (but I prefer them to the two you listed)

I'd recommend about anything but the speakers you listed.

Setups:

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post #22 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtyr View Post

May I recommend a speaker to look at? Since you've already got amazing responses about everything you've asked about listening position and setup.

Here are my recommendations.

Monitor Audio - RS1 or RX2 (used)
Dana - 630i
I think Cambridge Audio S30 is too small for your room but in your budget you might be able to do something with additional pairs.
Swan Diva (only problem is you'll need a lot of space behind them) The Audio Insider has them for half off!
KEF absolutely beautiful speakers and very highly regarded.
Infinity Primus - P163's would fill the room but they're my least favorite in my list (but I prefer them to the two you listed)

I'd recommend about anything but the speakers you listed.

Yeah I agree that the first speakers I listed are out at this point. With my all of my budget going into the LR at this time I have been looking at Klipsch Ref RB-81 II B, Sierra-1, Definitive Tech SM65 ( however I would need to use them laid over) Monitor Rx2, and Dana 630iLCR.
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post #23 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 04:31 PM
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In that case I'd love to see you with a set of Rx2's smile.gif

Also, I looked at the dana LCR for you but thought that the ~9" depth would be too deep for your arrangement. If it does work for you I think that is an amazing combo! There is an RX center that you could match to the bookshelves if you wanted to go the route of MA.

Setups:

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post #24 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Valtyr View Post

In that case I'd love to see you with a set of Rx2's smile.gif

Also, I looked at the dana LCR for you but thought that the ~9" depth would be too deep for your arrangement. If it does work for you I think that is an amazing combo! There is an RX center that you could match to the bookshelves if you wanted to go the route of MA.

I cant go 17" deep on my L and R the issue I will have in the future is my CC is going to be mounted under my hearth that is only 6" deep.
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post #25 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 04:57 PM
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I cant go 17" deep on my L and R the issue I will have in the future is my CC is going to be mounted under my hearth that is only 6" deep.

That is what worried me about the dana's you mentioned. Their LCR is 9.9" deep.

The RX2's are only 11" deep and the RX center is only ~7" deep. Not sure where you saw 17" but it seems like these or something of similar size would fit there. Am I misreading something?

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post #26 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 05:00 PM
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How deep is the ledge that the TV is sitting on in the picture? Is there any way you could mount the television on the wall and keep it off that ledge? If it were deep enough maybe you could rest a better sized center on that?

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post #27 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Valtyr View Post

That is what worried me about the dana's you mentioned. Their LCR is 9.9" deep.

The RX2's are only 11" deep and the RX center is only ~7" deep. Not sure where you saw 17" but it seems like these or something of similar size would fit there. Am I misreading something?

Lol oops I said "cant go 17" when i meant I can go as deep as 17" for my L, R. For the Dana's I mentioned, I was thinking of getting 2 of them and running those as my L and R... is that not a good idea?
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post #28 of 43 Old 08-15-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Valtyr View Post

How deep is the ledge that the TV is sitting on in the picture? Is there any way you could mount the television on the wall and keep it off that ledge? If it were deep enough maybe you could rest a better sized center on that?

The TV is not sitting on that ledge its mounted to the wall. The Ledge that is there is only 4" but under that ledge is 6" deep so I was thinking down the road i would mount my CC under that ledge.
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post #29 of 43 Old 08-16-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Are-Jay View Post

Yeah I agree that the first speakers I listed are out at this point. With my all of my budget going into the LR at this time I have been looking at Klipsch Ref RB-81 II B, Sierra-1, Definitive Tech SM65 ( however I would need to use them laid over) Monitor Rx2, and Dana 630iLCR.

Glad to hear that you are not mounting front speakers up so high.

I haven’t heard any of those specific speaker models. But based on a lot of reading from the forum and some experience with Ascend/Klipsch/MA/KEF, I would choose Klipsch assuming that you don’t do any serious music listening. And finding decent center with depth only around 6" would be a real challenge.

So my choice is Klipsch RB-61 II and Synergy Center C-20 (or second sub instead of center). I think 6.5” woofer will be good enough for movies. My buddy has Klipsch towers with 2x 4.5” woofers (of course with a sub) in a big family room open to kitchen. They have no problem filling up the space. I picked Synergy Center C-20 just because of the depth (6.5”). Second sub RW-12D would also be very beneficial because your room is huge. And again don’t skip surround speakers. Finding cheap used Klipsch bookshelf locally is not very hard.

Or I think you can get both Klipsch and Monitor speakers locally. Bring both to home and listen to them and decide.

One thing I'm wondering is whether the heat from the fireplace is going to be fine or not. Bottom of center speaker might get hot?

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post #30 of 43 Old 08-16-2013, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I was Thinking the same thing about the heat coming off the fireplace. I'm going to turn it on for a few hours tonight then use laser thermometer on the bottom of the heart to see what the temperature climbs to. I also think it's going to be rare for the fireplace to be on while we are watching a movie.

As for the surrounds, they're going to need to be in wall so they're going to have to come later.
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