Out of the market for a while, want new front mains for my theater. $10k Budget. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I know these threads are a dime a dozen and are annoying as hell but please bear with me.

So Ive been a Def Tech fan in my home theater since 97. Currently using 7001's with a CLR 3000 as my fronts. Matching surrounds and a Submersive sub. Running a Marantz AV7005 and Emotiva XPA-5 amp.

A couple years ago I built myself a two channel system downstairs and I picked up the Totem Hawks for that. I was absolutely blown away by those speakers. The detail and sounstage coming from those little floorstanders were brilliant. I realised that I was missing way too much from my home theater system after that.

So now I just cant deal any longer. I want to get rid of the DT's. I am going to visit my local place (Hifi House in Jenkintown, PA) and see a buddy of mine who works there. Im looking to stay around $10k for the front 3 speakers.

It has been suggested that I check out the Paradigm Signature S6 v.3 as the best for that price point. I have an addiction to the Totems now and might putsh myself to get into the Wind series. I have also thought about the new Sonus Faber Olympica or PSB's.

Looking for some input from people who have been paying attention to the market for a while and can help an old timer out. Another thing of note, this will be 100% theater based, no music whatsoever.

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 01:42 PM
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You have a Submersive, consider the Seaton Catalysts? Or JTR Noesis?
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post #3 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

You have a Submersive, consider the Seaton Catalysts? Or JTR Noesis?

I did a lot of research on this forum before and after I posted this thread. I checked out those Catalysts and they look right on the money. However, I really need to audition something before I buy it for my system. I cant spend $10k without touching, feeling, smelling and hearing these speakers. Thats why I have to go with something found at the store level. The JTR look like a cool company too but there really wasnt enough information out there with reviews on their speakers. I liked the higher end versions which looked like something I would see at a concert but Ive always shied away from horn speakers. Ive found them too invasive for me.
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post #4 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 02:06 PM
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You'll miss out on the best by relying on a store IMHO, unless you can travel to a lot of them to get a wider range of choices or just go with their usual few brands in any one place. Did you test the Submersive first? Do you doubt Seaton's quality? Try searching out some of the speaker/sub home gathering threads here and read some reactions from those who have had a chance to touch, smell, hear, and even carry, such speakers. Got me lusting if I were to spend that kind of money, those two would be top of my list. Personally not usually a big fan of horns either (like lower end Klipsch particularly).

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post #5 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, you got me. When I got the sub I was replacing a deftech super cube. I was between the hsu and fathom and I don't remember what else. Then I came upon submersive thread and had to get it based on the credentials. I do love it. But it's just a sub and I don't get to use it too often because my neighbors complain(live in a townhouse).

To me, the front three are way more important to me. I crave details in my sound.

I will check out the catalyst thread again but I really want input on some mainstream speakers too.
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post #6 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 05:22 PM
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The Aerial 7t's get outstanding reviews. They retail for 10k without a center channel but may be a dealer could discount enough to get all three at or near your budget.

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post #7 of 45 Old 08-17-2013, 06:07 PM
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OP,you should contact forum member Reefdvr27, Dave's located in Jersey too. I'm sure he'd give you a demo of his JTR Noesis 212HT's if you asked him.

If you care too you could read up on the 212HT's in a few of the speaker GTG's that they have been at. Here's two of the most recent ones.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460712/central-iowa-spring-audio-gtg-jtr-bamberg-seaton-salk-gr-research

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468211/ne-spring-speaker-shootout-results-thread-april-13-2013
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post #8 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

OP,you should contact forum member Reefdvr27, Dave's located in Jersey too. I'm sure he'd give you a demo of his JTR Noesis 212HT's if you asked him.

If you care too you could read up on the 212HT's in a few of the speaker GTG's that they have been at. Here's two of the most recent ones.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460712/central-iowa-spring-audio-gtg-jtr-bamberg-seaton-salk-gr-research

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468211/ne-spring-speaker-shootout-results-thread-april-13-2013

Oh man, those two GTG threads are killing me. I think Im definitely sold on one of those either the 12c's or 212's. That being said, I dont know if they are actually overkill for my setup.

My room is 17.5' by 12'. My listening ear is about 13' from the mains and 2' from the back wall. It is a loft so one side wall is completely missing. I do have room treatment; bass traps in all corners, and panels on the back, side wall and ceiling. As I mentioned, I dont really listen to the setup with the sub on a lot because it just rocks my neighbors. So using the deftechs alone with the powered sub has been decent but not fulfilling. I wont be listening, with or without the sub, to levels that remotely get close to what was done in the GTG's. I have my speakers SPL'd at reference level but usually listen to my theater at -10.

So, based on the information above, which of those two speakers(seaton or noesis) would work best? And what is the difference between the 212ht and 212lp?
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post #9 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 09:14 AM
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Check out the JTR 228s. People who have heard them say they are just as good as the 212s for movies. I have them and absolutely love them.
You can save a lot of money.

JTR Noesis 228 (LCR)
Polk Audio LSiM 703 (Surrounds)
Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)
Denon 3312 (Receiver)
Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)
Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player)
Sharp 80" 3D
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post #10 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Oh man, those two GTG threads are killing me. I think Im definitely sold on one of those either the 12c's or 212's. That being said, I dont know if they are actually overkill for my setup.

My room is 17.5' by 12'. My listening ear is about 13' from the mains and 2' from the back wall. It is a loft so one side wall is completely missing. I do have room treatment; bass traps in all corners, and panels on the back, side wall and ceiling. As I mentioned, I dont really listen to the setup with the sub on a lot because it just rocks my neighbors. So using the deftechs alone with the powered sub has been decent but not fulfilling. I wont be listening, with or without the sub, to levels that remotely get close to what was done in the GTG's. I have my speakers SPL'd at reference level but usually listen to my theater at -10.

So, based on the information above, which of those two speakers(seaton or noesis) would work best? And what is the difference between the 212ht and 212lp?

If you don't use the subs much then the 212 may not be for you since it is rated to 60hz. I'm flat to 55 hz in my room on the omnimic. You could instead get the cat 12's and have Mark set the dsp on them to full range and then you wouldn't need to run your sub.

However, that means you are getting the same frequencies that you would get with the subs on so once again it would be rocking the neighbors so I guess it depends on what you really want. If you want a truly full range speaker get the cat 12's with the adjusted dsp, if you don't get the Noesis. I prefer the sound of the Noesis but the Cats sound awesome too and there are just as many that prefer the Cat's to the Noesis - either way they both sound awesome. The Cat's are much prettier so that is a consideration too, but then again the price difference is quite significant. Hmmm back and forth, I don't think I helped you much! smile.gif


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post #11 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 09:23 AM
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The HT has better midbass but takes up a bit more room. Running with a sub I'm betting it's hard to tell the difference, but I haven't actually heard the sealed 212's so this is just going on what Jeff at JTR says.


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post #12 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Oh man, those two GTG threads are killing me. I think Im definitely sold on one of those either the 12c's or 212's. That being said, I dont know if they are actually overkill for my setup.

My room is 17.5' by 12'. My listening ear is about 13' from the mains and 2' from the back wall. It is a loft so one side wall is completely missing. I do have room treatment; bass traps in all corners, and panels on the back, side wall and ceiling. As I mentioned, I dont really listen to the setup with the sub on a lot because it just rocks my neighbors. So using the deftechs alone with the powered sub has been decent but not fulfilling. I wont be listening, with or without the sub, to levels that remotely get close to what was done in the GTG's. I have my speakers SPL'd at reference level but usually listen to my theater at -10.

So, based on the information above, which of those two speakers(seaton or noesis) would work best? And what is the difference between the 212ht and 212lp?

The 212HT-LP is a sealed "low profile" version, it has a little smaller enclosure and doesn't go quick as low as the 212HT. If you heard over to the JTR thread a forum member Archaea just did a small mini review comparing the 212HT's to the smaller 228HT's. Those are the speakers that I have and your room is a little smaller then mine. I know for a fact they would rock your room!

You're still going to use a sub with them, but maybe you should just dial the gain back a bunch so your neighbours aren't having their house rattled silly by yor SubM HP.
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post #13 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The 212HT-LP is a sealed "low profile" version, it has a little smaller enclosure and doesn't go quick as low as the 212HT. If you heard over to the JTR thread a forum member Archaea just did a small mini review comparing the 212HT's to the smaller 228HT's. Those are the speakers that I have and your room is a little smaller then mine. I know for a fact they would rock your room!

You're still going to use a sub with them, but maybe you should just dial the gain back a bunch so your neighbours aren't having their house rattled silly by yor SubM HP.

The comparison was in my room, and I agree with Archaea that if you are a movies only guy the difference between the 212 and 228 is much less noticeable if at all, and if it were me and I were going to have a moives ONLY room I would save some money and buy the 228's. This is the 2nd time we have compared the speakers and I had the same opinion both times.


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post #14 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The comparison was in my room, and I agree with Archaea that if you are a movies only guy the difference between the 212 and 228 is much less noticeable if at all, and if it were me and I were going to have a moives ONLY room I would save some money and buy the 228's. This is the 2nd time we have compared the speakers and I had the same opinion both times.

Ok well here's my issue. Typically if I know there's a better product of whatever I'm looking at and can afford it, I "need" to have that one. I get what you're saying about the 228's being perfectly fine and saving some money. However, I see it as if I get the 212's I'll be saving a few grand over the catalysts. If I got the 228's I'll always be thinking "what if?".

That being said, it seems like more people on this and other threads would pick the Noesis over the catalysts. Is that a fair assessment?
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post #15 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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So reading more threads is not going well for me. What is the deal with the pendragon speakers. Those seem pretty hot also and at a banging price?
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post #16 of 45 Old 08-18-2013, 10:40 PM
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So reading more threads is not going well for me. What is the deal with the pendragon speakers. Those seem pretty hot also and at a banging price?

There seems to be a lot of delivery issues with Pendragon speakers from Tekton, Eric the owner seems to say one thing a do another. And if you want them with grills be prepared to not have those for a long time. There's plenty of cases where guys have paid for speakers with grills, after a long wait they receive their speakers with no grills and then proceed to wait months and months for the grills. I even believe there's no buyer that still haven't received grills almost a year after getting their Pendragon speakers.

From everything I've read they are pretty awesome sounding speakers but if you're going to take the risk on buying them you should be fully aware of all the risks.
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post #17 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Man, this is extremely difficult. I need to really think about all this.

Yesterday I was at my buddy's place and we popped in a few demo's on his system. He has ML Summits in his system with matching front and there were times during the demo's that I cringed. I can't stand electrostat speakers. OMG they are so shrill and piercing on high notes. This was an issue I had with Maggies I demo'd. This is also something I cringe with on horn tweeter speakers.

Please tell me that the highs arent as piercing and shrill on the 228/212's as Ive heard in the past on Klipsch speakers. I am chomping at the bit here to get something new but I cant figure out which direction I want to go in. So many options.
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post #18 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 07:40 AM
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I know I mentioned these earlier so I'd thought I'd link a review. I was all set to buy them but needed to replace my car so I'm holding off for now.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/aerial-acoustics-model-7t-loudspeaker-page-2

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post #19 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I know I mentioned these earlier so I'd thought I'd link a review. I was all set to buy them but needed to replace my car so I'm holding off for now.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/aerial-acoustics-model-7t-loudspeaker-page-2

Ugh, you guys are kililng me.
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post #20 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Man, this is extremely difficult. I need to really think about all this.

Yesterday I was at my buddy's place and we popped in a few demo's on his system. He has ML Summits in his system with matching front and there were times during the demo's that I cringed. I can't stand electrostat speakers. OMG they are so shrill and piercing on high notes. This was an issue I had with Maggies I demo'd. This is also something I cringe with on horn tweeter speakers.

Please tell me that the highs arent as piercing and shrill on the 228/212's as Ive heard in the past on Klipsch speakers. I am chomping at the bit here to get something new but I cant figure out which direction I want to go in. So many options.

Well all I can say is that I've heard two different speakers that made me cringe a little, Paradigm Studio 100's with the CC-690. The louder those went the less and less I liked them, so that's why I didn't buy those. And the Klipsch Ultra 2 KL-650-THX, again they were great speakers with lots of dynamic impact but the louder the volume went up the less I liked them.

I can honestly say that I haven't fealt like that with my 228HT's.
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post #21 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Well all I can say is that I've heard two different speakers that made me cringe a little, Paradigm Studio 100's with the CC-690. The louder those went the less and less I liked them, so that's why I didn't buy those. And the Klipsch Ultra 2 KL-650-THX, again they were great speakers with lots of dynamic impact but the louder the volume went up the less I liked them.

I can honestly say that I haven't fealt like that with my 228HT's.

Ok, you have been the best at replying to my thread and I greatly appreciate it. Let me ask you an honest question. If you could go back and do it again, woud you have still picked the 228's or would you have upped it to the 212's?
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post #22 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 10:37 AM
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Ok, you have been the best at replying to my thread and I greatly appreciate it. Let me ask you an honest question. If you could go back and do it again, woud you have still picked the 228's or would you have upped it to the 212's?

I've often gone back and worth with this myself, honestly I'm one of those guys that usually tends to buy the better of two options because I hate second guessing and doing the "what if" type thing. And I've always been a firm believer in "you get what you pay for" hell I have watches worth more then my entire audio setup and my friends have given me the nick name "bells & whistles" ...lol

And I can honestly same that for me I'd probably still go with the 228HT's, but keep in mind that I use them only for movie use and my room is only 2100cubic/ft. I just couldn't justify the price difference.
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post #23 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I've often gone back and worth with this myself, honestly I'm one of those guys that usually tends to buy the better of two options because I hate second guessing and doing the "what if" type thing. And I've always been a firm believer in "you get what you pay for" hell I have watches worth more then my entire audio setup and my friends have given me the nick name "bells & whistles" ...lol

And I can honestly same that for me I'd probably still go with the 228HT's, but keep in mind that I use them only for movie use and my room is only 2100cubic/ft. I just couldn't justify the price difference.

Thanks again for replying so quick. So it seems that the only reason to go for the 212's is if you plan on playing music and I dont so the 228's are it. Now, again to play devils advocate, is it worth it to go for the Catalyst 12c for movies over 228's or is the monitary difference not worth it?

What if we still compare the Pendragons or Triad inroom Golds?
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post #24 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 10:53 AM
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Please tell me that the highs arent as piercing and shrill on the 228/212's as Ive heard in the past on Klipsch speakers. I am chomping at the bit here to get something new but I cant figure out which direction I want to go in. So many options.

Actually, the Ultra II's and the 212's have a similar sound and dispersion.............but will say the 212's will play much louder with no compression. The PHC's have been my favorite horn loaded speaker...........but bring the big bucks.

It's all about application....................if you like rock concert level's then 212's would be your ticket. If you want a smooth...........warm, transparent sound............there are better alternatives.

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post #25 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:09 AM
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What if we still compare the Pendragons or Triad inroom Golds?

Haven't heard the Pendragons.................but I recently purchased Triad Golds. I would have much preferred Triad Gold Monitors, but my room is too big for Monitors. It's all about application............

Once again, you must define your application................if your room is small, IMHO the Noesis are overkill! If you have a large room, they'll be fine.

I came real close to purchasing 212's............they are a fine speaker...............but in my room and application decided I preferred Triad Gold LCR's at moderate to semi-loud levels. Of course Golds can NOT keep up with 212's..................but for me, at my seating position and listening levels............Triad Golds were a no brain-er.......ie. a smoother, more pleasing sound.

Figure out what you like.............and find what best fits your needs. Most of the above recommendations are sound, but depends on your needs and application.

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post #26 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:14 AM
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Well all I can say is that I've heard two different speakers that made me cringe a little, Paradigm Studio 100's with the CC-690. .

I totally agree with this assessment!!!! The most painful speaker I ever heard................the Paradigm Studios!!!

Sorry Paradigm owners..............that's JMHO!

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post #27 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Once again, you must define your application................if your room is small, IMHO the Noesis are overkill! If you have a large room, they'll be fine. .

Ok, here's what my theater looks like, its a small room with big intentions.



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post #28 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:30 AM
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Ok, here's what my theater looks like, its a small room with big intentions.




Let me guess........................11 or 12 ft wide by 13 to 15ft deep?

With that room open...............forget about the Noesis completely! I suggest Triad Gold Monitors........my favorite speaker besides the $30,000 a pair Ariel 20t V2's. Triad Gold LCR would be too much too...............look into Gold Monitors.

Talk to Mike at AVS......................he can meet you budget! wink.gif

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post #29 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Let me guess........................11 or 12 ft wide by 13 to 15ft deep?

12.5'x17.5'
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post #30 of 45 Old 08-19-2013, 11:46 AM
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12.5'x17.5'

So you are looking at 10-12 ft to listening position which opens up a lot of choices. Problem is that rear wall being so close to listening position........good thing you're already using treatments. wink.gif

Your open room will suck energy from the listening position which creates other issues...........ie. a waveguide would be better but that rear wall being so close creates another issue.

You have some hard decisions to make..............

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