Assembling my first audio setup, probably Genelec 8020 + 7050 and need some help - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 08-23-2013, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, this is my first time writing here, I'm not an audio expert, I play guitar, do some editiing with Logic, I care about having good equipment and can appreciate a good audio source but it's the first time I'm really investing in good monitors, I am on a budget and a little lost.

After some research I came to the conclusion that a pair of Genelec 8020 monitors and a 7050 subwoofer could cover my needs. I plan to use the set for some audio editing and as a home cinema connected to a Denon AVR 2113 AV receiver, on a medium size room in a 2.1 configuration.

Though I'm not sure if they'll work well connected to the receiver or will come short as home cinema for a medium size room. Also I'd like to know how the bass performance would be having only the monitors in case I decide to wait a little to adquiere the subwoofer. I'm looking for these after the overall great feedback from user I've seen, I know they're more oriented for studio recording but many people use them as home cinema, since I'll be making both I think they can be good.

What do you think? Of course I'm open to alternatives and suggestions. Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 36 Old 08-23-2013, 09:32 AM
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Won't work with that receiver. You need pre-outs to connect to your speakers.
You need to go to the AVR-3313 for pre-outs.
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post #3 of 36 Old 08-23-2013, 12:27 PM
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You can do better than the Genelec sub for less money. Internet direct subwoofer vendors HSU Research, SVS Audio, Rythmik Audio, Power Sound Audio, and Outlaw Audio sell subwoofers that are the best price performance values. You should be able to get a good 12" sub from one of them that would spank the Genelec 7050, and you'd save a good bit of money smile.gif

Meanwhile, do you need HDMI inputs or other digital inputs? Or are you using your own DAC and/or have devices that have analog out? You might look into these preamps
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/umc200
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/usp1

Cheaper than buying a high end receiver that has preouts.

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post #4 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the answers, but the AVR 2113 receiver was the first part of the investment and I just bought it about a month ago, I'm not replacing it and woudn't wan't to purchase additional equipment.

Anyway I don't get what the problem with these speakers is, aren't they amplified? As far as I know you only need preouts with passive speakers, there's something I'm not getting right I'm afraid...

What other similar speaker system would you recommend, or what kind of speakers should I seek to use it with this receiver?

Thanks again!
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post #5 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 10:03 AM
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You've got it backwards. Passive speakers would connect right up to the speaker outputs on any AVR. For active speakers, you need pre-outs for each channel that you intend to hook up.

It's possible the Zone 2 output connections might work. Although on some receivers, you can only pass audio to the Zone outs that was connected to the receiver via analog connections, not digital (read your manual). The other downside to the Zone 2 is that it doesn't give you a subwoofer output and you can't use the bass management.

So you really bought the wrong electronics for what you want to do. If it's not too late to send it back, you probably should. Check your return policy right away. Pre-outs like you need are typically only included on higher end receivers.

What other components do you need to hook up, and what kind of connections? I'm assuming your computer, but are you using HDMI or optical? Do you have a separate blu-ray player?

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post #6 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 02:07 PM
 
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The 7050 sub has bass management built into it even for a 5.1 system.  A lot of the pro stuff works that way.  It is a good match for those speakers.  You would have to use Zone2 as stated as that receiver doesn't have pre-outs.  You could use a speaker to line level converter but that wouldn't be my first choice.

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post #7 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 04:04 PM
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Yeah. But it really doesn't make sense to buy that 7050. It's an 8" subwoofer with a 70 watt amplifier. That will be terrible for HT usage in a medium sized room.

Get a SVS SB12-NSD for $649, and it has a built in 80hz high pass filter. It's a 12" sealed sub with 400 watt RMS amp. Then the Emotiva USP-1 processor is only $449. So for less of the price of the Genelec, he has a processor and sub. Now if he needs HDMI input, then the UMC-200 7.1 is $150 more.

Just a shame to have all the money sunk into that receiver, and then also buy that wimpy sub, when he could have a much better setup for less money.

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post #8 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 04:51 PM
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You can't connect an amplified signal to an amplifier. The AVR won't work with powered speakers. You need to give up on that idea. There is no good solution for it. If you want to use powered speakers, you should use either a preamp/processor or any AVR that has preamp outputs. Those outputs will bypass the amplifiers in the AV receiver. While Genelec speakers are outstanding as recording monitors, they aren't a very cost effective choice for home theater. If want to use them, then you need a higher end AVR or a preamp/processor.
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post #9 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 10:49 PM
 
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I agree a better processor or receiver should be used for your home theater.  For the sub and using this for recording I would definitely go with the Genelec as it is a good match.  It will match the linearity no problem, its crossover slope, etc. is designed for their speakers and it is very accurate with low distortion.  For recording purposes the Genelec is a no brainer.

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-24-2013, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

It will match the linearity no problem, its crossover slope, etc. is designed for their speakers and it is very accurate with low distortion.  For recording purposes the Genelec is a no brainer.

What does that mean that the "crossover slope, etc. is designed for their speakers?" He's looking at a sub in a different speaker line, so I don't know how it could be particularly matched. He could go with the Emotiva UMC-200 7.1 and it has "Flexible quadruple bass management, with 12dB or 24 dB per octave crossover filters, configurable in precise 5 Hz steps below 80 Hz (and 10 Hz steps above 80 Hz)." I don't know how you can do better that since speaker and sub room placement could have an impact on the best place to set the crossover, something that Genelec can't predict.

You must be new to the Internet direct subwoofers, Bob smile.gif As far as linearity, the SVS SB12-NSD sub I recommended to him will have no problem with that. Here are independently verified measurements that demonstrate it's pretty much ruler flat. The SB12 also has very good low distortion even at 95db output levels. Compare the linearity of it with the frequency response of the 7050 in their manual, and you'll see the Genelec sub is no better. But compare the harmonic distortion plots, and the SVS is going to be cleaner to significantly higher volumes.

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post #11 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 08:11 AM
 
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I have nothing against ID subs or products and I am not new to them at all.  I have ran into them many times in calibrating in both the pro and consumer world.  However, they are not always the right product for the job.  Linearity changes if you have to lower the volume control on the sub which often happens if you are matching a bigger sub to small speakers.  There is a reason Genelec doesn't recommend their larger subs with their smaller speakers.  Also, it is not just about the slope, what type of crossover is it?   I agree that having an adjustable crossover can help solve some room problems but the frequency adjustment and slope are often not enough.  Plus this needs to pair with recording equipment and unless he goes with an external crossover unit and has the measurement equipment and knowledge to use it would be better to just use the Genelec.  For someone serious about recording I'd spend the extra bucks and get the Genelec.  If they want more boom for the buck or for more HT applications then get the SVS. 

 

 I do agree he needs some type of processor or receiver if he wants use this system for double duty for his HT. 

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post #12 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

I have nothing against ID subs or products and I am not new to them at all.  I have ran into them many times in calibrating in both the pro and consumer world.  However, they are not always the right product for the job.  Linearity changes if you have to lower the volume control on the sub which often happens if you are matching a bigger sub to small speakers.  There is a reason Genelec doesn't recommend their larger subs with their smaller speakers. 

I don't understand why lowering the gain (it's not a volume control) on a sub amp would change the frequency response, other than if you are running the sub near it's limits, there could be some compression; lowering the gain would eliminate that, which is a good thing. If the sub amp is sensitive enough, it shouldn't matter. And I didn't recommend some monster, high output 15" ported sub where the gain will have to be turned down substantially.
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Also, it is not just about the slope, what type of crossover is it?   I agree that having an adjustable crossover can help solve some room problems but the frequency adjustment and slope are often not enough. 

So why type of crossover does the Genelec 7050 use? I didn't see it specified in any of their literature. So how do you know it's better?

And as far as configurability, if that's the need, the UMC-200 7.1 is far more flexible than the Genelec 7050 with both automatic room configuration and PEQ for subs and speakers.
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Plus this needs to pair with recording equipment and unless he goes with an external crossover unit and has the measurement equipment and knowledge to use it would be better to just use the Genelec. 

Why? He could set the crossover on the UMC-200 7.1 to 85hz, just like the Genelec, and be done with it. Or use the built in 80hz high pass filter on the SVS, turn the low pass to 80hz, and it's done, too.

It just seems to me that this whole argument for the Genelec sub is based on a preference for the Genelec brand, rather than any real information on why it is better.

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post #13 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
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  There is a reason Genelec doesn't recommend their larger subs with their smaller speakers. 

They don't want the prospective customer to know that subs have volume controls? They want to be sure the prospective customer doesn't go to another brand?
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post #14 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 09:14 AM
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They don't want the prospective customer to know that subs have volume controls? They want to be sure the prospective customer doesn't go to another brand?

Probably figure if someone wants a bigger sub, they can upsell them to a bigger speaker, too wink.gif

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post #15 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 11:10 AM
 
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The gain does not affect frequency response but can affect linearity and I have measured it many times on various subs.  Not all subs or speakers are created equal. I'm not discounting the SVS for being a good sub nor do I think that Genelec is a bang for the buck by any means.  Does the OP have the capability to measure and knowledge to set up his sub correctly?  Audyssey and other auto EQs are a crapshoot at best.  I'm talking for recording purposes where many want to get it right and don't have the means or knowledge to do a good acoustic calibration.

 

Although UMC-200 is a bargain for the price and has great adjustability and would be a good choice instead of his Denon.  Higher end processors which are most likely out of the OP price range have even greater flexibility w/ crossover types and slopes for mismatched components as they are more likely set up by a professional.  But, it appears the OP is bying these for his recordings first and HT second.

 

The problem with any mismatched sub and speaker is they don't play at the same level when changing the volume.  I'll use a real world example.  We had a customer that wanted his system calibrated using a PB13 ultra with a Tannoy Revolution speaker system.  With the gain on the sub at 1/4 on the dial I could not get that system to be linear.  I could level match at 75db but at 85db for the speakers the sub was hot. The sub just had more to give than the speakers.  if you turn the gain on the sub much lower and the reverse happened.  It was just not precise. Luckily in this system we had a QSC DSP unit and could use different settings in its gain and EQ with the remote system to change levels depending on the volume of the processor.  But, this became a more complicated solution to get this room right.

 

Now in the average HT room this might not be a big deal to some to not have good linearity and most wouldn't go to this extent anyway.  But for someone that creates mixes they want their mixes to translate well on other equipment.

 

  Although, I like Genelec I like SVS too.  In fact I had 2 SVS PC ultras in my room at one time and although I deal with both in my work.  I don't have any Genelecs in my home not even for my recording area. I play keyboards for fun not professionally, and without MIDI I would stink. I have JBL monitors although I would love some Genelec 8260s.  I believe in trying to find the right product for the right application, so it is not about being a Genelec fanboy or an SVS fanboy or an Emotiva fanboy or going by which has better specs. 

 

 The OP has chosen to go with Genelec for his monitors and the Genelec sub is a good match for his application.  If he had chosen other monitors I wouldn't be saying go with a Genelec sub.

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post #16 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 12:22 PM
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I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the linearity of the speaker response. My bad redface.gif

I still think you are putting too much faith in the Genelec sub. The Genelec sub is not going to be plug and play. He's going to have to measure if he wants any sub--Genelec or otherwise--properly calibrated with the speakers to set the gain properly. There's no getting around that. He can't earball it and get it right.

And I don't know if the linearity will be a problem or how much. But it seems like this is a lot of precision to worry about for someone wanting to do some amateur editing. The OP readily admits that he's not an audio expert and just does a little work with Logic. It seems like you are holding the setup to much higher standards than he needs.

Meanwhile, Genelec rates that sub at 100 db "Maximum short term sine wave SPL output averaged from 30 to 85 Hz, measured in half space at 1 meter." In a medium sized room, that's not going to do it for HT usage; he'll be distressing it running it a high levels of distortion if he plans on turning it up at all. Notably, their low distortion figures are rated at 90db, 30 to 85 Hz, measured in half space at 1 meter. It's all increased distortion from there. Compare that to the SB12-NSD which was measured 102 db, 20 to 80hz, ground plane at 2m, short term average. Then convert that to 1m half space, and that's probably close to 12 db output or more. Same measurement method, the SB12 averaged no more than 5% distortion (and mostly much less) at 95db. Convert that to 1m half space and you've got distortion clean up to much higher output levels.

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post #17 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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We can go round and round about this all day.  I have measured the Genelec and run across them often as MANY recording studios use them.  I won't argue that the SVS can go louder but they will also go louder than the speakers too.  They will also go lower at volume as well, not as big of a concern for music unless you do a lot of pipe organ work.  I won't argue the value either the Genelec is not cheap.  The distortion measurements are not done the same way, so you would need them done by the same person under the same conditions for a good comparison.  I can tell you for the average person again in the recording environment they will have an easier time integrating the Genelec sub.  The Genelec has sensitivity adjustment for any minor differences.  I would bet if they follow the Genelec instructions for room placement and have half way decent placement they won't need it.  HT tends to have more variable placement than 2.1 systems for mixing.

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post #18 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 04:09 PM
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The distortion measurements are not done the same way, so you would need them done by the same person under the same conditions for a good comparison. 

I don't know why. It's an 8" ported sub with a small amp. It's generating about what one would expect. Meanwhile, Genelec rated it at a maximum output of 100 db, then show low distortion number for 10 db less output. Their graph on the data sheet (figure 2) has to represent the distortion at the maximum output (or lower), which is pretty high distortion. And it's pretty easy to compare the numbers from there. 1m half space measurements vs. 2m ground plane is generally a difference of 12 db. Audioholics numbers conform to CEA2010 testing procedures except for measuring 2m instead of 1m. Here are Ilkka's measurements for the 7050B, who btw is now working for Genelec. Illka's measurements are 2m ground plane. So with all the data, I think my observation's are very well supported.

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The Genelec has sensitivity adjustment for any minor differences. 

Those sensitivity adjustments are useless without measurements. And if one has measurements, it's only another step to learn to use the PEQ capability in that Emotiva processor, which would provide much more flexibility and finer tuning.

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post #19 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 04:48 PM
 
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So aren't volume adjustment without measurements but that only requires an SPL meter which you could get as a free app on a smart phone.  You should ask Ilkka what he thinks would be easier to integrate for a home recording environment. He does work for Genelec and is a moderator on their forum. 

 

http://www.community.genelec.com/forum/

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post #20 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 05:02 PM
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Have you ever looked at the frequency plots for smartphone microphones? You are getting the OP worried about potential minor problems with linearity between the sub and speaker volume adjustment, but pushing for using an app with a device that is not very accurate for measuring SPL. That is inconsistent.

Now why would I ask someone who works for a company if their product would be better than another company's? LOL

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post #21 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 06:13 PM
 
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You would be measuring relative levels to balance the sub and speakers for SPL not a frequency plot.  If you are looking to set it to a specific level then no it would not be the right tool for the job.  But there are no standards for music listening level nor recording studios for that matter.  I'll bet you Ilkka would give you an honest response if PM him.  Ilkka is perfectly aware that certain products are better for a given application and that Genelec does not make products for every application.  If he felt there was a product better suited for the application he'd tell you.  I don't think anyone would argue that the SVS has more output but can it be as easily integrated without measurement equipment compared to a product that it was designed to be used with?

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post #22 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 06:41 PM
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You would be measuring relative levels to balance the sub and speakers for SPL not a frequency plot.  If you are looking to set it to a specific level then no it would not be the right tool for the job.  

So, why didn't you just say you've never actually looked at any phone mic frequency response plots (see my previous comment)? As you can see, none of these iPhone models would work for giving "relative levels" for the sub vs. the speakers.
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I'll bet you Ilkka would give you an honest response if PM him.  Ilkka is perfectly aware that certain products are better for a given application and that Genelec does not make products for every application.  If he felt there was a product better suited for the application he'd tell you.  I don't think anyone would argue that the SVS has more output but can it be as easily integrated without measurement equipment compared to a product that it was designed to be used with?

I bet SVS would their sub would work just fine. And Emotiva, if they still had the X-Ref 12, would say use it in this context along with one of their pre-processors. I just don't think it's a good idea to rely on companies to give unbiased opinions.

Still, in answer to your question, if no measurements are taken, with either sub you just plug it up and adjust the gain as you can by ear. The only difference is I think you'd have turn the low pass crossover dial on the SVS to 80hz. It's no more difficult or easy with either sub. What exactly are your perceived difficulties with integration?

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post #23 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 09:35 PM
 
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Again what does a frequency plot have to do with a relative SPL level.  As long as the result is repeatable it does not matter if it is accurate.  You play an 85hz sine wave through it (Genelec's crossover point) and set the speakers and sub.  Use 80hz for the SVS.  It does not matter if the reading says 70db and it is actually 75db as long as they are set the same.  Again there is no reference level for music.

 

 Does the SVS have any room controls for placement?  What about the difference in slope with SVS using 12db and Genelec using 18db?  Is that going to integrate better?  How are you going to set the low pass control knob?  By Ear?  Yeah that will be as accurate.  There is no 80hz switch for a crossover on the SVS that I am aware of.  To use that knob then you would need better measuring equipment and don't accidentally hit the knob.  The Genelec you set a switch on the back of the speaker when you use their sub so the low and high pass filter match at 85hz.  Done. That's it.  You don't want to except the fact the Genelec was designed to work together and would be a lot easier to integrate especially for a recording system.  

 

 If you want to say the SVS is a better value, I hear you!  Lower extension considerably less money even if you add the cost of True RTA, REW, etc. you would need to set it to get it close to what the Genelec can do as is.  The OP has enough info to make a decision and budget is usually a factor.

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post #24 of 36 Old 08-25-2013, 11:13 PM
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Again what does a frequency plot have to do with a relative SPL level.  As long as the result is repeatable it does not matter if it is accurate.  You play an 85hz sine wave through it (Genelec's crossover point) and set the speakers and sub.  Use 80hz for the SVS.  It does not matter if the reading says 70db and it is actually 75db as long as they are set the same.  Again there is no reference level for music.

See, but if there is a major dip or peak at 80hz on the sub, and the rest of the frequency response is very linear, it could be better to edge the crossover up or down from the sub and sacrifice some of the smoothness of the crossover for having a more linear frequency response.

But this is kind of silly that you would suggest someone that is thinking of buying a $1200 sub use a phone app when they could buy an SPL meter for $30 that would be more useful.
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Does the SVS have any room controls for placement?  What about the difference in slope with SVS using 12db and Genelec using 18db?  Is that going to integrate better?  How are you going to set the low pass control knob?  By Ear?  Yeah that will be as accurate.  There is no 80hz switch for a crossover on the SVS that I am aware of.  To use that knob then you would need better measuring equipment and don't accidentally hit the knob.  The Genelec you set a switch on the back of the speaker when you use their sub so the low and high pass filter match at 85hz.  Done. That's it.  You don't want to except the fact the Genelec was designed to work together and would be a lot easier to integrate especially for a recording system.  

Those room controls are fairly useless without measurements. The SVS has a notch at 80hz where you set the crossover. No that hard.
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Originally Posted by BobL View Post

 If you want to say the SVS is a better value, I hear you!  Lower extension considerably less money even if you add the cost of True RTA, REW, etc. you would need to set it to get it close to what the Genelec can do as is.  The OP has enough info to make a decision and budget is usually a factor.

As I pointed out at the beginning, he needs to get a processor and the SVS sub. If as accurate system as you are implying he needs is important to him, he can get the UMC-200 and it will EQ things for him, set distance, level, and phase. Or if he does not want to use the automatic EQ, and he will still have far more control of the bass management. The price of the SVS and the UMC-200 is $1248, which is right around the going rate for the 7050B. So end result? Better sub, better automatic configuration of sub and speakers, and no need for the receiver. Then he can get rid of the receiver and use that money for something else. If he could actually return the receiver, he could likely even step up to the Genelec 8030A.

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post #25 of 36 Old 08-26-2013, 12:10 AM
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Man talk about thread hi-jacking. Anyway since you already bought this reciever you should utilize the amplifiers in it and get some passive speakers. Thats what the reciever is designed to power. If you have an audio store near you spend a few days and audition some speakers. Stick with well known brands like Paradigm, PSB, Klipsch, and Definitive Technology just to name a few. Another option is internet direct companies both for a subwoofer and passive speakers. ID companies like HSU Research, Emotiva, Axiom, and Aperion make great speakers and you can demo them for 30 days then get a refund if you don't like how they sound. Thing with speakers though is that its YOUR ears so only YOU know what you like. We can reccomend you good brands and models but theres no gaurentee that you will like the sound.

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post #26 of 36 Old 08-26-2013, 03:49 AM
 
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Or if he is going to use a receiver he should look at passive monitors instead of HT brands, JBL, Alesis, Behringer, Tannoy.  Zone 2 could work but he may have to run analog connections as well for digital sources. Depending what he has for recording equipment I'd be a little cautious of connecting to a consumer receiver as the levels are different and a guitar can have some great dynamics in signal levels and may damage consumer equipment.  You are correct sorry to derail the thread it isn't helping the OP.

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post #27 of 36 Old 08-26-2013, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Well thanks for the rescue to the last two of you, I was out for the weekend, read the thread a couple times and was getting seriously confused, I really appreciate your willing to help but I'm not too savvy of this matter as I said so that discussion didn't actually help much.

My doubt was quite simple, I have a fixed budget but wanted to have the best equipment for the money I'm willing to spend, I thought this receiver was good after reading a lot and the same for the Genelecs, now I'm a little disappointed to know that configuration is not possible, but I can't return the receiver and I'll have to adapt to it. Connected to the receiver I have a PC through an X-Fi Titanium HD card, an Apogee One interface on the Mac and then a few other devices through HDMI. For the moment I'm using a headset connected to the front.

I'll start investigating about passive speakers then, thanks for the help and further advice will be quite welcomed.
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post #28 of 36 Old 08-26-2013, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Or if he is going to use a receiver he should look at passive monitors instead of HT brands, JBL, Alesis, Behringer, Tannoy.  Zone 2 could work but he may have to run analog connections as well for digital sources. Depending what he has for recording equipment I'd be a little cautious of connecting to a consumer receiver as the levels are different and a guitar can have some great dynamics in signal levels and may damage consumer equipment.  You are correct sorry to derail the thread it isn't helping the OP.

Yes I agree you definitly don't have to stick with HT brands. I actually prefer pro monitor type speakers myself.

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post #29 of 36 Old 08-27-2013, 06:49 AM
 
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Knowing your equipment definitely helps since you have no pro-equipment directly feeding your receiver.  There aren't as many passive speaker options and I would probably head down to music shops near you and listen to some.  If you go with bigger speakers you will need a bigger sub to match.  The SVS mentioned or even bigger model depending which speakers you go with.

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post #30 of 36 Old 08-27-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Js Wayne View Post

I thought this receiver was good after reading a lot and the same for the Genelecs, now I'm a little disappointed to know that configuration is not possible, but I can't return the receiver and I'll have to adapt to it.

Or sell the receiver as like new and get most of your money back. The UMC-200 and the SVS SB12-NSD are only a little more than the Genelec sub. Getting into the audio hobby is a trial and error kind of thing. Many of us on AVS have bought and then end up selling equipment to get where we wanted to end up. smile.gif

If it were me, I would go with the UMC-200, SVS SB12-NSD, and the Adam A7X. That would be very good for studio work, but much better for home theater watching in a medium sized room. Those Adams have much lower bass extension. If you are doing guitar recording and editing, you don't even need a sub with those for that work smile.gif

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