Trade Klipsch Reference RF-7II.... for B&W CM10 is a good decision? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Some of you may or may not remember this. Bob carver made his name back in the 80s. ...If you told bob carver all amps sounded the same he would sit down blind folded and pic one amp out after another by name. biggrin.gif. And that sir is a fact lol

Ummm...I think what you are contending is the opposite of what those experiments show....Do you have a link to where you got your information because I don't think Bob Carver could "sit down blind folded and pic one amp out after another by name."
Zen Traveler is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

This amp is what i tried to find used but cost to much.

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/parasound-halo-a-21

or this

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/parasound-halo-a-51

I personally think Parasound is great, love them, and the looks are very nice, specially the new black colour.
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #273 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Would love proof of that please. And i don't mean a link of peoples opinions. Because if you want to do that i will fill 10 pages of links of people who say your wrong wink.gif

So keep it to facts please and show me proof that an emo xpa-5 sounds the same as a B&K 200.7 s2. Pretty sure you cant so please don't speak for me and say its in my head. I just got blasted for saying your silly right?

I don't really mind the jab but don't want to get other people mad that may read this

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #274 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I personally think Parasound is great, love them, and the looks are very nice, specially the new black colour.

Thefactor on here has one with his rf-7ii system and says it sounds 100x better than his emo did.

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #275 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Here is a link to him send him a pm if you have some ?

http://www.avsforum.com/u/8096654/thefactor

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #276 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Would love proof of that please. And i don't mean a link of peoples opinions. Because if you want to do that i will fill 10 pages of links of people who say your wrong wink.gif

So keep it to facts please and show me proof that an emo xpa-5 sounds the same as a B&K 200.7 s2. Pretty sure you cant so please don't speak for me and say its in my head. I just got blasted for saying your silly right?
if you bothered reading the links, you would have read about the science that was done by actual audio engineers that backs up my claim.. You have zero science to back up your claim, just opinion.
losservatore likes this.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #277 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 04:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Thefactor on here has one with his rf-7ii system and says it sounds 100x better than his emo did.

And when he purchased his Emotiva amps there was no bigger fan:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

All I know with all the drama put aside I couldn't be happier with my XPA-2 and XPA-3 . What great amps and amazing performance and Bang for the buck !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

No hissing with my Klipsch and with there sensitivity level so high over a 100 and tweeter/horns if it was going to happen you'd think it would with my setup . Very strange your having that issue. Wonder if its your processor/ AVR or somewere else in your chain, Just a thought ?
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #278 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 04:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

if you bothered reading the links, you would have read about the science that was done by actual audio engineers that backs up my claim.. You have zero science to back up your claim, just opinion.

For the record--If he provides a link to where he got his information it will also back up your claim. wink.gif

I have never seen anywhere that Bob Carver could blindfoldedly pick out different amps and the Stereophile test that was mentioned was in regard to a tube amp which very well may have colored the sound that he was able to reproduce in his design.

That said, it should be prefaced that with Solid State amps there should be no difference and that two similar spec 'd amps should sound the same at a given volume when level-matched.
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #279 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 05:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
losservatore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,107
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 295
The response for a amp should be flat .... not warm ,laid back ,forward.... it should be flat, a amp should not over or under-emphasize any frequency or tone.


A flat frequency response is extremely important because every instrument or voice should be heard as originally recorded.

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Revel Surrounds/Sonos Connect/ Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /Sonos system for rooms/Master bedroom Sonos sound bar/Sonos sub and Sonos play 1 surrounds.
losservatore is offline  
post #280 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 06:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

The response for a amp should be flat .... not warm ,laid back ,forward.... it should be flat, a amp should not over or under-emphasize any frequency or tone.


A flat frequency response is extremely important because every instrument or voice should be heard as originally recorded.

Again. I am not disagreeing with you but if you look at the history of Tube amps then you will see that there are some differences. Tube amps and Solid State amps do not sound the same unless they were designed to and then Tube amp folks will disagree with you. wink.gif
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #281 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 06:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

if you bothered reading the links, you would have read about the science that was done by actual audio engineers that backs up my claim.. You have zero science to back up your claim, just opinion.

Lots of back and forth here but plenty that support both sides.

And apples to apples doesn't mean any 200 watt amp vs any 200 watt amp. You can't just pic what will sound the same because they both aren't junk, Amps can and do sound different and some amps do sound the same. But there are cases they can sound the same or should.

As gene points out in my copied quote. Two amps same power rating sounding night and day different.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

"Yet it’s not just clipping behavior that distinguishes the sound of one amplifier from another. Many people swear that there is a fundamental difference in the overall tonal quality between amps, that, indeed, their ‘color’ or ‘character’ differs from each other.

Here’s another great anecdotal example: Many years ago we were listening to our latest albums on a very high-quality (for that time) system—a top-of-the-line Kenwood integrated amplifier (rated at 60/60 wpc RMS with vanishingly low distortion), AR-3a speakers and a Dual 1249 turntable with a Shure V15 cartridge. Highly-regarded equipment, operating well within its intended performance environment.

My friend had just purchased a Dynaco ST-120 power amplifier (60/60 wpc RMS) and he wanted to make sure it worked properly, so he brought it over. The Kenwood had pre-out/main-in jacks, so we used the Kenwood as the preamp. The speakers, turntable, cartridge, and speaker wires remained the same. The only change in the system was the power amp.

We weren’t looking to “compare” the power amps’ sound, we were only looking to confirm that the Dyna worked.

We played the original system, then we swapped in the Dyna and played the same material.

The Dyna worked, but the difference in sound character was stunning. Stunning. We raised and lowered the volume. The differences persisted at all levels. We reconnected the Kenwood and re-listened. Then we re-connected the Dyna again.

Now, remember, originally we weren’t consciously looking for differences in their sound, but it was so obvious that it just hit the two of us over the head like a ton of bricks. It was so obvious and apparent that we spent the rest of the night listening to all manner of records, first on the Kenwood, then on the Dyna, and over and over.

There might be several explanations for the differences, but they were real, without question.

Oh, just for the record, the Kenwood (a more modern design) was much “tighter” and “more controlled” in the bass, while the Dyna was “flabby” and “loose” by comparison. Night and day."

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #282 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 06:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
losservatore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,107
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked: 295
Zen Traveler my comment is directly to ss amps, not tubes amps.



if you like to color the sound the tubes are a good option. But a solid state should be flat in response.




That's it folks have fun with this topic.

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Revel Surrounds/Sonos Connect/ Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /Sonos system for rooms/Master bedroom Sonos sound bar/Sonos sub and Sonos play 1 surrounds.
losservatore is offline  
post #283 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 06:55 PM
Member
 
Vital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
I have swapped out a ton of amps over here on my Chorus II's and no one would be able to tell the difference in amps on my system at 85 db. I bet you would be hard pressed to pick out my Dynaco ST-70 tube amp over one of my solid state amps in a blind test at 85 dbs. I was very surprised by the lack of tube sound from a "tube" amp. The truth is, I didn't get that sound until I used a tube pre-amp. I don't think that you could pick out a B&K, Krell, Emotiva, Parasound or any other decent amp at 85 dbs. Now when they are dead silent you will hear the amps with a high gain if you're sitting close enough. I have quite a few amps and the amp I have had running my Chorus II's for the last few months is indeed a pro amp rated at 425 watts a channel.
Vital is offline  
post #284 of 329 Old 09-07-2013, 07:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Lots of back and forth here but plenty that support both sides.

And apples to apples doesn't mean any 200 watt amp vs any 200 watt amp. You can't just pic what will sound the same because they both aren't junk, Amps can and do sound different and some amps do sound the same. But there are cases they can sound the same or should.

As gene points out in my copied quote. Two amps same power rating sounding night and day different.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

"Yet it’s not just clipping behavior that distinguishes the sound of one amplifier from another. Many people swear that there is a fundamental difference in the overall tonal quality between amps, that, indeed, their ‘color’ or ‘character’ differs from each other.

Here’s another great anecdotal example: Many years ago we were listening to our latest albums on a very high-quality (for that time) system—a top-of-the-line Kenwood integrated amplifier (rated at 60/60 wpc RMS with vanishingly low distortion), AR-3a speakers and a Dual 1249 turntable with a Shure V15 cartridge. Highly-regarded equipment, operating well within its intended performance environment.

My friend had just purchased a Dynaco ST-120 power amplifier (60/60 wpc RMS) and he wanted to make sure it worked properly, so he brought it over. The Kenwood had pre-out/main-in jacks, so we used the Kenwood as the preamp. The speakers, turntable, cartridge, and speaker wires remained the same. The only change in the system was the power amp.

We weren’t looking to “compare” the power amps’ sound, we were only looking to confirm that the Dyna worked.

We played the original system, then we swapped in the Dyna and played the same material.

The Dyna worked, but the difference in sound character was stunning. Stunning. We raised and lowered the volume. The differences persisted at all levels. We reconnected the Kenwood and re-listened. Then we re-connected the Dyna again.

Now, remember, originally we weren’t consciously looking for differences in their sound, but it was so obvious that it just hit the two of us over the head like a ton of bricks. It was so obvious and apparent that we spent the rest of the night listening to all manner of records, first on the Kenwood, then on the Dyna, and over and over.

There might be several explanations for the differences, but they were real, without question.

Oh, just for the record, the Kenwood (a more modern design) was much “tighter” and “more controlled” in the bass, while the Dyna was “flabby” and “loose” by comparison. Night and day."

All of this is anecdotal heresay with no evidence of properly controlled side by side double blind testing. The actual experts that agree with me are Floyd Toole, David Clark, Bill Fitzmaurice, Roger Russell and many, many others. Just look at the boutique brand amps and how they sell them. It's nothing but a bunch of flowery language that has nothing to do with actual measurements that prove their product is audibly better.

Amar Bose wasn't even an audio engineer, his degree was in psychoacoustics. Now can you see how he was able to convince millions that Bose is so great when Bose is demonstrably awful?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #285 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Amps do sound different. and alot.

It's not a matter even of how many watts they provide, is a matter of the way they provide, the attack, the bass, deep and soundstage...

If some members here are trying to convince themselves that there are no differences instead of saying non-sense things, do what i just did and listen to a couple of different amps.

Now, you guys cannot listen for example Krell Amps or Parsounds or Datasat with Monitor Audio RX Silver for example, everything must be in harmony. But there are differences, and very noticable.

I had to do this after all those comments, and here's my opinion, and just my opinion, i don't want to start any wars, not my intention.
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #286 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

All of this is anecdotal heresay with no evidence of properly controlled side by side double blind testing. The actual experts that agree with me are Floyd Toole, David Clark, Bill Fitzmaurice, Roger Russell and many, many others. Just look at the boutique brand amps and how they sell them. It's nothing but a bunch of flowery language that has nothing to do with actual measurements that prove their product is audibly better.

Amar Bose wasn't even an audio engineer, his degree was in psychoacoustics. Now can you see how he was able to convince millions that Bose is so great when Bose is demonstrably awful?

Bose is for people who like noise, not sound quality don't you agree?... For my garden for sunday party's with the kids they are alright, but no more than that. Even so i would never invest money on bose.
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #287 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 05:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Amps do sound different. and alot.

It's not a matter even of how many watts they provide, is a matter of the way they provide, the attack, the bass, deep and soundstage...

If some members here are trying to convince themselves that there are no differences instead of saying non-sense things, do what i just did and listen to a couple of different amps.

Now, you guys cannot listen for example Krell Amps or Parsounds or Datasat with Monitor Audio RX Silver for example, everything must be in harmony. But there are differences, and very noticable.

I had to do this after all those comments, and here's my opinion, and just my opinion, i don't want to start any wars, not my intention.

What I am trying to convey to you is that it is very easy to get suckered into the world of audiophoolery where manufacturers make outlandish claims that have no basis in science.

You want to trust your ears, but the problem with your ears and your brain is that they are not very good as a scientific instrument that has the ability to accurately measure sonic differences.

You want to believe there is a difference so your brain tells you there is one.

All we're trying to do is keep you from wasting money. If you truly want to it is your business, however I feel it is still important to convey the truth to you so you can make an informed decision instead of blindly getting an expensive piece of equipment that does nothing to improve the sound.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #288 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 07:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Zen Traveler my comment is directly to ss amps, not tubes amps....if you like to color the sound the tubes are a good option. But a solid state should be flat in response.

I understand, but given it wasn't stated directly wanted to clarify the record as well as try to shed light on RH's comment in regard to his misconception of what the Bob Carver situation actually was. Like I said, if he researches further he will see that Bob Carver would be one of the scientist that would support what you are trying to convey--That's what is getting lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Just because you keep saying this doesn't mean it's true. You're giving the OP bad advice.

For the record, he is the OP...That said, I noticed both you and losservatore have a combined post count of over 5,000 posts and are making the argument for the scientific community, yet any newbie looking in would see that the other poster (not OP) has less than 800 posts but more "thumbs up" than y'all combined--I really have nothing else to add to this thread except to say in the age of Facebook it seems the relevance of Science has taken a backseat on the AVSForum and that is disheartening...{Steps off soapbox}

That said, anyone that is dead set on getting an amp, by all means do so and get the one you want. Insofar as the OP who has the Pioneer Susano--It appears the only agreement on this thread is that you are not going to gain any benefit by adding an external amp...
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #289 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 07:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,089
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Lots of back and forth here but plenty that support both sides.

As gene points out in my copied quote. Two amps same power rating sounding night and day different.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-sound-of-an-amplifier

Again, going to the link provided, both amps DID NOT have the "same power rating."


We ran this test at low listening levels (70dB at the listening area) and at higher listening levels (80dB). Each time I switched between the amps, the listeners all recognized quite a dramatic difference in sound. The Panasonic actually conveyed more bass than the Denon but it was very boomy and lacked articulation. At the higher listening level, things really got ugly for the Panasonic. It was clearly running out of gas and it just sounded nasty. The reason the Panasonic exhibited boomy bass was likely because of its high output impedance (measured over 1 ohm!) compared to the Denon that measured in milliohms. The RBH speakers dip down to about 3 ohms so the system damping factor was really compromised with the Panasonic receiver.

I asked them to now pay attention to high frequency detail and clarity. I heard comments like “That amp sounds very harsh” or “The sound is very bright but lacks life and ‘air.’” Can you guess which amp these comments were attributed to? It was again they Panasonic Class Dl. Even at low power levels where both amps were operating unclipped, there was a clear preference by our listening panel for the better-designed amplifier. Clint was no longer a skeptic and closed minds were opened. As an engineer myself, I still recognize that not everything we can measure matters and not everything that matters is necessarily always properly measured.

This example goes a long way towards proving that amps that measure definitively different (including the very tangible output impedance difference between the two) will sound different—not exactly a big surprise.


Fwiw, here are the specs for the Panasonic SA-XR50: http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/SA-XR50S?t=specs&support#tabs
and here are the Specs for the Denon POA-A1HDCI: http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=AVSeparates(DenonNA)&Pid=POAA1HDCI(DenonNA)

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I think you are stuck on the word all. Instead of all amps sound the same, consider: amps are not supposed to add anything to the sound and most sound the same when working within their designed limits. You still won't agree with it, but at least you can stop picking on details.

Bingo!
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #290 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 08:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I understand, but given it wasn't stated directly wanted to clarify the record as well as try to shed light on RH's comment in regard to his misconception of what the Bob Carver situation actually was. Like I said, if he researches further he will see that Bob Carver would be one of the scientist that would support what you are trying to convey--That's what is getting lost.
For the record, he is the OP...That said, I noticed both you and losservatore have a combined post count of over 5,000 posts and are making the argument for the scientific community, yet any newbie looking in would see that the other poster (not OP) has less than 800 posts but more "thumbs up" than y'all combined--I really have nothing else to add to this thread except to say in the age of Facebook it seems the relevance of Science has taken a backseat on the AVSForum and that is disheartening...{Steps off soapbox}

That said, anyone that is dead set on getting an amp, by all means do so and get the one you want. Insofar as the OP who has the Pioneer Susano--It appears the only agreement on this thread is that you are not going to gain any benefit by adding an external amp...

Edited and fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #291 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've noticed difference, i will not tell i didn't if i did. And the 3 i've tried were connecter to the same Processor. Is this a coincidence? No, i don't think so.
There are amps that sound cold, others neutral and others with a more warm sound, i've heard it.
Anyway this concerns to the opinion of each of us, no need to discuss somenthing like that, because some of you will say the contrary, and i respect everyone here.
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #292 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 08:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 2,435
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

For HT use yes, but I have yet to hear JTR system that sounds really good for music in stereo.
I am listinen to the Beatles this morning in two channel with my JTR Noesis 212's along with my dual subs and sounds incredible to me. The Noesis may be the best 50/50 speaker on the market!
Reefdvr27 is online now  
post #293 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I've noticed difference, i will not tell i didn't if i did. And the 3 i've tried were connecter to the same Processor. Is this a coincidence? No, i don't think so.
There are amps that sound cold, others neutral and others with a more warm sound, i've heard it.
Anyway this concerns to the opinion of each of us, no need to discuss somenthing like that, because some of you will say the contrary, and i respect everyone here.

You will hear a difference if they are not level matched. That is primarily the reason people say they hear a difference. I can guarantee in a double blind A-B-X comparison with everything set up properly and level matched you couldn't tell a difference.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #294 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 09:44 AM
Member
 
Vital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Here is a very interesting test with the results. ABX Double Blind Test It clearly shows that most solid state amps proved to sound the same with the exception of the one's that clipped when pushing a tough load and the clipping was audible. Of course the highly modified tube amp vs solid state was detected but it shows what most people already know. I'm not saying that no amplifier out there can sound different but the job of an amplifier is not to change it's sound signature and add it's own flavor. The job is to be neutral and amplify the sound. If you want to test different sound signatures in your system you need to rotate pre-amps and then you'll get what you're looking for.
losservatore likes this.
Vital is offline  
post #295 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 09:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Amps do sound different. and alot.

It's not a matter even of how many watts they provide, is a matter of the way they provide, the attack, the bass, deep and soundstage...

If some members here are trying to convince themselves that there are no differences instead of saying non-sense things, do what i just did and listen to a couple of different amps.

Now, you guys cannot listen for example Krell Amps or Parsounds or Datasat with Monitor Audio RX Silver for example, everything must be in harmony. But there are differences, and very noticable.

I had to do this after all those comments, and here's my opinion, and just my opinion, i don't want to start any wars, not my intention.

Best way to know is compare like you did and i agree. Flying fool looks up to his expert friends and just goes with what they say. I cant compete with that.biggrin.gif

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #296 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What do you think about REVEL Speakers for Home Theater compared to Kef Reference and B&W Diamonds?
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #297 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reference_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

What I am trying to convey to you is that it is very easy to get suckered into the world of audiophoolery where manufacturers make outlandish claims that have no basis in science.

You want to trust your ears, but the problem with your ears and your brain is that they are not very good as a scientific instrument that has the ability to accurately measure sonic differences.

You want to believe there is a difference so your brain tells you there is one.

All we're trying to do is keep you from wasting money. If you truly want to it is your business, however I feel it is still important to convey the truth to you so you can make an informed decision instead of blindly getting an expensive piece of equipment that does nothing to improve the sound.

Maybe its your ears that aren't very good. biggrin.gif. Instead of telling other people what they hear. You should just worry about what you hear. smile.gif

He just said he went and listened to them and that they had a different sound. All you can say is its in are head.

Ok you win your right. My last response to you sir. I hope your friends don't try and sell you a bridge. eek.gif

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
Reference_head is offline  
post #298 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
The name of the website is Audio Visual Science, not Audio Visual VooDoo. Bad science is bad science and there's no way to sugr coat that. Listen, I used to be in the same camp of exotic cables and ampliiers. Now that I know thw science behind it all, I no longer get suckered in
losservatore likes this.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #299 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
MV_Cinema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Maybe its your ears that aren't very good. biggrin.gif. Instead of telling other people what they hear. You should just worry about what you hear. smile.gif

He just said he went and listened to them and that they had a different sound. All you can say is its in are head.

Ok you win your right. My last response to you sir. I hope your friends don't try and sell you a bridge. eek.gif

They are not my friends... LOL They are just seller's..the last word is mine.

What do you say about REVEL Speakers, do they perform good at Home Theater?
MV_Cinema is offline  
post #300 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,448
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 199
Quote:
I hope your friends don't try and sell you a bridge.
Using that analogy, one could say his friends the experts are not the ones selling a bridge.

psgcdn is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Klipsch Rf 7 Ii Reference Series Ii Flagship Floorstanding Speaker , Klipsch Rf 7 Ii Reference Series Flagship Floorstanding Speaker , Klipsch Rf 7 Ii Reference Series Floorstanding Loudspeaker Pair Black , Klipsch Rf 7 Ii Reference Series Floorstanding Loudspeaker Pair Cherry , Klipsch Rf7ii Reference Ii Flagship Floorstanding Speaker Black B Stock , Klipsch Rf 7 Ii Reference Series Ii Flagship Floorstanding Speaker Cherry B Stock

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off