Trade Klipsch Reference RF-7II.... for B&W CM10 is a good decision? - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

They are not my friends... LOL They are just seller's..the last word is mine.

What do you say about REVEL Speakers, do they perform good at Home Theater?

Revel are excellent speakers. Still, of all that have been listed, the JTR Noesis will still be the best for your dedicated home theater hands down

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #302 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

They are not my friends... LOL They are just seller's..the last word is mine.

What do you say about REVEL Speakers, do they perform good at Home Theater?

You seem to be getting folks into all sorts of debates, in numerous threads, and in the end it is your decision and don't rely on opinions on the Internet.

Again, you brought up the question of "rationality" in one of your posts, but given ALL of the conflicting answers you are getting it seems logical not to rely on any of them and go and trust your own ears.

That said, regardless if you are auditioning speakers or amps, the advice to have them level-matched at the volume you want to listen is the only rational way to go about it--Anything else will skew the results. Good luck.
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post #303 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

They are not my friends... LOL They are just seller's..the last word is mine.

What do you say about REVEL Speakers, do they perform good at Home Theater?


Was not talking about your friends. Was talking about flying fools friends smile.gif

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post #304 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:53 AM
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Still on the debate about the amps ,MV_Cinema just buy what ever you want ,I don't know your intentions here but it looks like you are trying to bring a battle ,this is a endless topic, some will agree and some will disagree ,just buy what ever you want ,honestly 11 pages and over 300 posts is enough.

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post #305 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I will make my home work, and will come back when i amke my decision, with photos and details.
Tank you all
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post #306 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I will make my home work, and will come back when i amke my decision, with photos and details.
Tank you all

Sounds good good luck biggrin.gif

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post #307 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

What do you think about REVEL Speakers for Home Theater compared to Kef Reference and B&W Diamonds?


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Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

What do you think about REVEL Speakers for Home Theater compared to Kef Reference and B&W Diamonds?
If you ask me, they are not theater speakers. I would look at Salk veracity HT2-TL's or the HT3's over any of the ones mentioned. But then again for theater, I would not want any of them.

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post #308 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Still on the debate about the amps ,MV_Cinema just buy what ever you want ,I don't know your intentions here but it looks like you are trying to bring a battle ,this is a endless topic, some will agree and some will disagree ,just buy what ever you want ,honestly 11 pages and over 300 posts is enough.

Party pooper!tongue.gif

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #309 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 12:01 PM
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Party pooper!tongue.gif


Yes i love a good debate biggrin.gif. Always leaning new things smile.gif

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post #310 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 12:15 PM
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Lol 8 days 11 pages 311 post and not counting his other posts from other threads, also his research online ,there is plenty of info out there,I think is time for the op to decide by his own.


You have the options, now to audition ,good luck!!!!....wink.gif

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post #311 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 12:31 PM
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Also almost 4,000 views ,I bet that the experts are ignoring the thread.

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post #312 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If you ask me, they are not theater speakers. I would look at Salk veracity HT2-TL's or the HT3's over any of the ones mentioned. But then again for theater, I would not want any of them.

What speakers would you recommend then?

So you don't recommend B&W Diamonds; Kef Reference; Revel; RBH; Klipsch, but you recommend Veracity?
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post #313 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also almost 4,000 views ,I bet that the experts are ignoring the thread.

Let them ignore. By the way what makes a guy an expert i this matter? I hear so many silly things sometimes from people who call themselves experts in HIFI... I also say silly things, and i am ignorant in many areas of this amazing world, but i don't call my self expert.
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post #314 of 329 Old 09-08-2013, 04:16 PM
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Let them ignore. By the way what makes a guy an expert i this matter? I hear so many silly things sometimes from people who call themselves experts in HIFI... I also say silly things, and i am ignorant in many areas of this amazing world, but i don't call my self expert.

You need not follow anyone's advice, but you do seem to circle quite a bit in your reasoning and logic. Moreover, while everyone has his own musical tastes, the notion of selecting Klipsch for a reference-level music ensemble while exploring B&W 800s, Revel Ultimas, Kef Reference, and like others for a home theater strikes me as quite, shall I say, unusual?
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post #315 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You need not follow anyone's advice, but you do seem to circle quite a bit in your reasoning and logic. Moreover, while everyone has his own musical tastes, the notion of selecting Klipsch for a reference-level music ensemble while exploring B&W 800s, Revel Ultimas, Kef Reference, and like others for a home theater strikes me as quite, shall I say, unusual?

This is the same example of the guy that enters Porsche Dealer to buy a Boxster and ends up spending his cash on a 911, because he liked it more. Same thing... Unusual maybe yes, but i am sure i am not the only one to make these radical decisions.
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post #316 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 07:15 AM
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How is "bass control" spec'd? You might mean source impedance, or damping factor. It's generally a non-issue in solid-state designs, but it can be an issue in tube amps.

How is high end extension spec'd? I don't know of any amps that can't go to 20kHz and beyond.

In your test, how were "DB's" leveled? With an SPL meter?

I had a DB meter in a fixed position in the room.

As for the differences, I don't claim to have "golden ears" etc. But I could tell one amp from the other. The bass was a bit deeper and tighter on one amp and that same amp had a bit more forward highs and vocals.

Were the differences great - no, were they there yes.

But I'm one that believes many amps are voiced and biased differently.

Heck, on the sunfire cinema grand series of amps they have a current and voltage source for sonic purposes.
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post #317 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 12:18 PM
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I haven't followed all of this thread, but I did notice some discussion on if amps will sound different from each other if kept below clipping levels.

Some of you may have seen this gtg but for those who haven't here goes.

I feel lucky, I have quite a few local avs guys that are as into this stuff as I am so one day we decided to figure out for ourselves if amps really make a difference.

We are all pretty open minded guys. Personally I have always leaned towards the side that says amps will sound the same if they aren't clipping but I was for sure open to the idea that amps make a significant difference. In fact, I was hoping we would prove to ourselves that amps did make a difference because I like buying gear and trying new things out so that would be another fun toy to research and buy to power my speakers.

Well, that night we thought that we discovered that amps have a very obvious and different sound. We took out as many variables as possible, level matching the amps withing .2 to .3 decibels at the most and often even closer than that.

We weren't going to discuss what we thought during the comparisons but right off the bat we realized that the sound differences were so obvious that we couldn't help but discuss.

In the end we realized a fatal error had thrown all of our findings out the window. The receiver used to direct the signal to the amps turned on Audyssey when it was accidentally turned off and then back on. So everything we were hearing was the Audyssey settings for the different pre-outs of the reciever (LRC, side surrounds, rear surounds, etc.) and accounted for why the different amps sounded so different.

Ha, it was quite the whirlwind. In a few hours I went from thinking amps didn't matter too much to thinking they made a ton of difference and back again.

The next day some of us did it again making sure evil Audyssey did not turn itself on again. This time... no difference. Well, with one exception. We had a cheap HTIB receiver in the mix just to test all kinds of amps. It did sound different, the soundstage was all off and the other amps all sounded better - and identical, even at pretty high volumes. We even had a 20 watt T amp that was indistinguishable from an expensive 2 channel Emotiva amp. Other than one person (not me) none of us knew which amp was which during this testing.

Being able to immediately switch makes all the difference. Even though our original findings got all screwed up it was still a blast and worth it to finally have the answer for myself if amps really do make a noticeable difference below clipping.

Check out the video avs member Chirpie made of the GTG. Very cool video, looks professional.



BTW the distortion during the 8 sub demo is the microphone, the bass was completely clear (and crazy) in person.

You can watch the video at 1080p


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post #318 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 12:32 PM
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^^^^^^^THIS

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post #319 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 12:37 PM
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Great Carp. What about external amp v.s receiver amp? Difference?
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post #320 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:17 PM
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Great Carp. What about external amp v.s receiver amp? Difference?

No difference at all, except for the Home Theater In a Box receiver. Other than that the amps and receivers sounded the same. Being able to immediately A/B on the fly made it obvious we weren't going to be able to tell the difference. We went pretty loud too, but then again we had very efficient speakers.


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post #321 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:18 PM
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^^
Good to know. Thanks. So are you driving your 212's with just your Pioneer avr now or still have your Crown Amp hooked up?
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post #322 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:23 PM
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^^
Good to know. Thanks. So are you driving your 212's with just your Pioneer avr now or still have your Crown Amp hooked up?

I was all but decided on getting an external amp for the 212's but after the GTG I changed my mind. With 101 db sensitivity there is no way I need it so yeah just the avr. Ha, that said I bet someday I'll get an amp anyway... just to have another toy.

So, when you were here I had Jonathan's Crown right? I swore at the time that I could tell a difference between that and my receiver but that was before the gtg.


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post #323 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:34 PM
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^^yeap, Jonathan's Crown amp. I am trying to convince the Op to go with the 212's as he was considering the more expensive B&W and Kef. Every time I think about your 212's and your whole system, I am just smiling. Very very sweet.
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post #324 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 02:43 PM
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^^yeap, Jonathan's Crown amp. I am trying to convince the Op to go with the 212's as he was considering the more expensive B&W and Kef. Every time I think about your 212's and your whole system, I am just smiling. Very very sweet.

Thanks man, yeah it's it's still just as much fun and so rewarding since I took years and multiple speaker changes to finally find something that sounds exactly how I want it to every time I turn it on.

I think the OP said looks were really important - although I think these would look pretty good in a custom finish.


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post #325 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 03:01 PM
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No difference at all, except for the Home Theater In a Box receiver. Other than that the amps and receivers sounded the same. Being able to immediately A/B on the fly made it obvious we weren't going to be able to tell the difference. We went pretty loud too, but then again we had very efficient speakers.

Just when I think all hope is lost...Dude! You have become my new hero and put the Science back into an AVS thread where it needed to be. I hate the "thumbs up" function because so many use it as they do on Facebook (as a "like") but this truly was helpful. {Note: I am giving it for the original post although the one I am responding to deserves it as well but I can't go overboard.wink.gif}
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post #326 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 03:45 PM
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Just when I think all hope is lost...Dude! You have become my new hero and put the Science back into an AVS thread where it needed to be. I hate the "thumbs up" function because so many use it as they do on Facebook (as a "like") but this truly was helpful. {Note: I am giving it for the original post although the one I am responding to deserves it as well but I can't go overboard.wink.gif}

Haha, thanks Zen!! smile.gif

The real credit goes to Archaea for building the a/b switches and to MrSmithers for setting up the amps/receivers - not to mention Chirpie for the really cool video. All I did was offer up the room for the gtg and provide the beer. That is about the extent of my talents. smile.gif


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post #327 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 04:15 PM
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Placebo effect is very real and very powerful! Tests like this prove what I have known for awhile after testing myself in my own home with some friends. When you can switch on the fly like that and you're not the one controlling it, everything changes and you can listen without being biased. Great video, you guys went all out, wish I could have been around to join in! Thanks for posting that!
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post #328 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 08:33 PM
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Small changes in tone is not as easy to separate or hear for everyone. Even someone with perfect hearing.

A good example is guitar. If you play just an open string. And then play another guitar that is just a tiny bit off from the other one. 98 out of 100 people that don't play music would hear the same thing from both guitars. But a guitar player would hear it easily and pic out the different sound. Same with tuning the guitar. Some can do it by ear some need a tuner. Me personally i can hear a note and know its a E or B or what ever. Someone with out a trained ear will hear the same thing. Amps are pretty close and you cant do a blind test with amps no one has ever heard. Just like the different tuning on the guitar most would hear the same thing.

But if you have an amp in your system and then after say 2000hrs drop a new one in. Its a good chance most people will notice the little changes because the brain has learned the sound of the old amp. Learning is important to hear the differences. Just like playing music It takes time to learn the sounds.

Just because 98 out of 100 people think the guitar is in tune doesn't mean it is. Especially when the 2 out of the100 are guitar players and the 98 are not. biggrin.gif. Sounds and tones are learned and not everyone can do it.

Even the smartest audio engineers are born with the ears they have. They can know everything and still not hear a tone and know what it is vs another one.

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post #329 of 329 Old 09-09-2013, 08:58 PM
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Again, he is proving the case against what he thinks he is conveying...It gets no better than this on the Internet.
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