Trade Klipsch Reference RF-7II.... for B&W CM10 is a good decision? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 329 Old 09-05-2013, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Ya ya emo is the greatest ever i get it. NOT!. I have owned two emo amps (xpa-5 and a upa-200). The first was the xpa-5 it had really bad static and hiss that you could hear from 10ft away. I called them and they blamed my speakers for being to sensitive. Funny i got rid of the static by running a long run to another outlet but still had hiss (no help from emo by the way). The upa-200 was a pile of junk. It also had really bad static and hiss. But this amp i couldn't get the static out so had to pay out of my pocket to send it back. Two amps both with major issues out of the box. My new amp just a tiny bit of hiss zero static same spot same system. Im glad you love your emo but they are what they cost (cheap). biggrin.gif

Too funny. You're assuming I'm an Emotiva fanboy? Might surprise you to know I've never owned one, never heard one, never even seen a piece of Emotiva gear. I have no connection to them whatsoever and don't care about them one way or the other.

What I do care about is understanding of engineering, and that's what was missing from the post I responded to.

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post #182 of 329 Old 09-05-2013, 08:27 PM
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No un-balanced. I have read it helps to use balanced but my pre does not have xlr. I did like the xpa-5 after i got the static out (and that was not easy almost sent it back after i called them). Sounded way better than just an avr for sure.

Im not saying two amps cant sound the same but all the different amps i have owned do. Even the two emo amps i had sounded different (the xpa-5 was more refined than the upa-200). You read all the time the xpa-2 sounds more refined than the xpa-5. But then someone posts all amps sound the same. Its just silly but what ever biggrin.gif

Of course they sounded different to you, because you likely didn't level match, nor did you do your comparisons blinded. Unless those two things are done, it's completely normal to compare different amps and decide they sound different.

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post #183 of 329 Old 09-05-2013, 08:28 PM
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I think flying_fool has a point, the link does clearly state: "Although some people strongly feel otherwise, good amplifiers of comparable quality and power that are not being overdriven will sound very much alike under most conditions to most people."

I'd have to totally agree with that statement, provided they are really of the same quality (similar power supply, amp design, good components, etc...). After all, an amp that dies after 6 years isn't going to sound too good at year 6. It depends on what you want to say quality is I guess...!?! If you think an amp using caps by some no name manufacturer is "quality," I'd seriously reconsider your definition of quality.

Cheaper caps do die sooner, so putting a cheap off brand cap no one has ever heard of next to a heat sink, is much worse than putting a high quality cap next to a heat sink. Do we really trust some no name Chinese capacitor manufacturer to do proper testing, use consistent materials, etc...? What about one that's changed their names a couple times?!? I'd much rather see Emotiva choose components that at least have a brand that's well known... especially for components that will eventually need replaced and are right beside a heat sink.

Maybe we all need to take a breather and just read the Emotiva XPA-5 thread and see all of the failures for ourselves. I'd never been there, but the first page I clicked on had failures... Imagine that!?! How much you wanna bet it was the cheap a$$ capacitors? biggrin.gif

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post #184 of 329 Old 09-05-2013, 08:37 PM
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I think flying_fool has a point, the link does clearly state: "Although some people strongly feel otherwise, good amplifiers of comparable quality and power that are not being overdriven will sound very much alike under most conditions to most people."

I'd have to totally agree with that statement, provided they are really of the same quality (similar power supply, amp design, good components, etc...). After all, an amp that dies after 6 years isn't going to sound too good at year 6. It depends on what you want to say quality is I guess...!?! If you think an amp using caps by some no name manufacturer is "quality," I'd seriously reconsider your definition of quality.

Cheaper caps do die sooner, so putting a cheap off brand cap no one has ever heard of next to a heat sink, is much worse than putting a high quality cap next to a heat sink. Do we really trust some no name Chinese capacitor manufacturer to do proper testing, use consistent materials, etc...? What about one that's changed their names a couple times?!? I'd much rather see Emotiva choose components that at least have a brand that's well known... especially for components that will eventually need replaced and are right beside a heat sink.

Maybe we all need to take a breather and just read the Emotiva XPA-5 thread and see all of the failures for ourselves. I'd never been there, but the first page I clicked on had failures... Imagine that!?! How much you wanna bet it was the cheap a$$ capacitors? biggrin.gif

Does GE make the best caps? Or is it Toyota? Or maybe Apple? Or is it Coke? Please tell us what "brand name" caps to look for. My fellow engineers are dying to get this information. Our next designs depend on it.

And then tell us what caps are not made in China.

You seem to think the name on a cap is some sort of quality parametric. It's not.

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post #185 of 329 Old 09-05-2013, 09:00 PM
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beaveav please take a deep breath and relax a little bit. Its audio video not world hunger. eek.gif. Don't take it so personal its going to be ok man biggrin.gif

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post #186 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 05:41 AM
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just silly eek.gif lol tongue.gif

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No un-balanced. I have read it helps to use balanced but my pre does not have xlr. I did like the xpa-5 after i got the static out (and that was not easy almost sent it back after i called them). Sounded way better than just an avr for sure.

Im not saying two amps cant sound the same but all the different amps i have owned do. Even the two emo amps i had sounded different (the xpa-5 was more refined than the upa-200). You read all the time the xpa-2 sounds more refined than the xpa-5. But then someone posts all amps sound the same. Its just silly but what ever biggrin.gif

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beaveav please take a deep breath and relax a little bit. Its audio video not world hunger. eek.gif. Don't take it so personal its going to be ok man biggrin.gif

You're basically making what amounts to flamewar-starting comments and then telling people to chill. Oh boy.

My experience has been that for easy-impedance-load speakers, amps sound basically the same to me. The only difference was noise level, hum and hiss issues, with the most expensive amps I tried being worst at it (Carver m4a, Monster Signature MPA2250). The noise floor issue is what keeps me from buying amps online without trying them first, because they rarely work out for me. My 33 year-old Nikko Alpha 220 (something audiophiles would spit on) have been left turned-on for the last decade at least, and works great with a very low noise floor.
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post #187 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 05:43 AM
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Of course they sounded different to you, because you likely didn't level match, nor did you do your comparisons blinded. Unless those two things are done, it's completely normal to compare different amps and decide they sound different.

The point you are missing is that some people just want to buy an external amp regardless if they need one or not. What you said above is good advice if one really wants to know if purchasing an amp would be beneficial. I have similar speakers as the OP and the guy you are trying to give good scientific reasoning to. After talking to the engineers who designed my speakers I came to the sensible decision that works for me because I also have other things I enjoy doing and purchasing unneeded electronics isn't one of them.

For the record, the speakers in question have a Sensitivity rating of 101 dB/1 meter and the newer models dip down to 3.7 Ohms (as per this link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412510/klipsch-rf7-ii-measurements ) but are still labeled as "8 Ohm Compatible." This means that they should be driven with AVRs or amps that are rated to drive speakers that are 4 Ohm if one wants to listen at near Reference Level SPL.

Insofar as Emotiva is concerned, when they first came on the scene I had to debate people who said "Heck just purchase one and if you don't like it send it back." Of course those same people are the ones who have gone on to different amps and Emotiva knows that most people don't return items after their purchase for many number of reasons. That's not to say one way or another the quality of Emotiva over other brands but there should be no argument that amps shouldn't sound different if their specs are similar and that IS the science.
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post #188 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 05:48 AM
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You're basically making what amounts to flamewar-starting comments and then telling people to chill. Oh boy.

That is why I've stopped posting in the Klipsch Owners thread because it really is a no-win situation. You continually give good advice over there and are the only one who has/had been there as long as myself so keep up the good work. smile.gif
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post #189 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Today i was taking an eye on the M&K THX Speakers. Really nice...
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post #190 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 06:53 AM
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MK speakers are really nice, but I don't think theyre worth anywhere near the price they're asking for them.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #191 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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MK speakers are really nice, but I don't think theyre worth anywhere near the price they're asking for them.

Do you think they are better than Klipsch THX? At least their THX Series are a newer speaker...

One thing i saw i that the power of their subs is way inferior to SVS, so no way....
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post #192 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 07:20 AM
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You're basically making what amounts to flamewar-starting comments and then telling people to chill. Oh boy.

My experience has been that for easy-impedance-load speakers, amps sound basically the same to me. The only difference was noise level, hum and hiss issues, with the most expensive amps I tried being worst at it (Carver m4a, Monster Signature MPA2250). The noise floor issue is what keeps me from buying amps online without trying them first, because they rarely work out for me. My 33 year-old Nikko Alpha 220 (something audiophiles would spit on) have been left turned-on for the last decade at least, and works great with a very low noise floor.

flamewar? Wow some people take this stuff WAY too serious.

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post #193 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 07:23 AM
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Do you think they are better than Klipsch THX? At least their THX Series are a newer speaker...

One thing i saw i that the power of their subs is way inferior to SVS, so no way....

Low level klipsch yes

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post #194 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 07:51 AM
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flamewar? Wow some people take this stuff WAY too serious.
Sure, this isn't a knitting club. It's a place where people are passionate about HT and audio. People state their opinion, or even better link to an expert opinion, you laugh at it and say it silly... and don't think you are starting something? eek.gif
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post #195 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 08:13 AM
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Sure, this isn't a knitting club. It's a place where people are passionate about HT and audio. People state their opinion, or even better link to an expert opinion, you laugh at it and say it silly... and don't think you are starting something? eek.gif

Im passionate too. But im not going to get mad at someone who who thinks caps in a amp matter. And start yelling at someone like they stole somthing from me.

For every one link that says all amps sound the same. I can link 100 of people that say they dont. Just ask bill on klipsch.com as one example. That guy has owned so many amps and no they dont all sound the same. imo its silly to say that its just all in are heads and a little insulting. But whatever...

Im not going to start yelling at someone.

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post #196 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 08:32 AM
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Do you think they are better than Klipsch THX? At least their THX Series are a newer speaker...

One thing i saw i that the power of their subs is way inferior to SVS, so no way....

I wouldn't say better, just different. When you get up into those price ranges with conventional speakers I think it's more a matter of taste. A lot of us here on AVS really like the ID companies because we feel you get a much better value for your money. Much less is spent on advertising and there's no middleman. So many of us believe that more of what you pay for goes directly to the quality of the components and engineering that goes into the speaker.

So that's the real reason I think the JTR Noesis represents a much better value than the Klipsch or the MK.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #197 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 08:37 AM
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Im passionate too. But im not going to get mad at someone who who thinks caps in a amp matter. And start yelling at someone like they stole somthing from me.

For every one link that says all amps sound the same. I can link 100 of people that say they dont. Just ask bill on klipsch.com as one example. That guy has owned so many amps and no they dont all sound the same. imo its silly to say that its just all in are heads and a little insulting. But whatever...

Im not going to start yelling at someone.
Even Floyd Toole admits that psychological factors are a much larger part of the listening experience than anyone was aware of.
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Floyd Toole presented a paper at the 97th convention of the Audio Engineering Society, November, 1994 titled Hearing is Believing vs. Believing: Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests, and Other Interesting Things. Floyd originally worked at the National Research Council in Ottawa, Canada and then went to Harman International Industries, Inc., Northridge, CA. Floyd concludes: “Overall, though, it was clear that the psychological factor of simply revealing the identities of the products altered the preference ratings by amounts that were comparable with any physical factor examined in these tests, including the differences between the products themselves. That an effect of this kind should be observed is not remarkable, nor is it unexpected. What is surprising is that the effect is so strong, and that it applies about equally to experienced and inexperienced listeners.

Since all of this is independent of the sounds arriving at the listeners’ ears, we are led to conclude that, under the circumstances, believing is hearing, The bottom line: if you want to know how a loudspeaker truly sounds, you would be well advised to do the listening tests “blind.”

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #198 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 09:07 AM
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Thanks. At least someone else understands why I blocked beaveav. I mean, my opinion is pretty much an accepted opinion by most anyone in electronics design. I was a 4.0 engineering student too, and even have a M.S. in Electrical Engineering. The fact is, if an electrolytic cap is a no name brand and the company's changed it's name several times, it's dodgy. Unless you've personally toured the plant and they have QA controls in place, only a fool would think their caps are as good as well known brands.

I'd like to even see the spec sheet for those off brand caps. I googled some and couldn't find one (which isn't a good sign either), but I bet even the specs are not as good as other options.

Of course, when you start name calling and insulting someone like beaveav did (stating a person has little knowledge, can't possibly know anything, not a good engineer, etc), it shows lack of character. If someone can't respect another person, just block them. No point in talking to someone that can't objectively read a post without attacking a guy trying to help the OP.
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Im passionate too. But im not going to get mad at someone who who thinks caps in a amp matter. And start yelling at someone like they stole somthing from me.

For every one link that says all amps sound the same. I can link 100 of people that say they dont. Just ask bill on klipsch.com as one example. That guy has owned so many amps and no they dont all sound the same. imo its silly to say that its just all in are heads and a little insulting. But whatever...

Im not going to start yelling at someone.

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post #199 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 09:50 AM
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Im passionate too. But im not going to get mad at someone who who thinks caps in a amp matter. And start yelling at someone like they stole somthing from me.
I didn't say you should get mad. I said you shouldn't call people's opinions silly just because you don't agree with them.
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post #200 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 10:16 AM
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It's all in your head.

So i should have said it like that? (what he said to me about my opinion)

I have been an audio junky for 25 years and have been playing live on stage for over 20.
If i have learned anything at all in that time its sound.

Some amps have tight bass some have muddy bass some have more bass some have less some are bright some are flat some are cold some are warm and on and on....

And unless hes heard every amp ever made i have no idea how he can even say they all sound the same. So if i say two amps hes never heard. sound different how can he say its all in my head?

That sir is SILLY.

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post #201 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 10:27 AM
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You could have said that, instead.

You act like you were provoked first. The first time in this thread that you said "that's silly" was to TVMAN1991:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488534/trade-klipsch-reference-rf-7ii-for-b-w-cm10-is-a-good-decision/90#post_23699643

That came out of nowhere.

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post #202 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 10:31 AM
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It's not a question of what sounds different. It's a question of PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS. I trust frequency response readouts over your "golden ears". There is no refuting the fact that if an amplifier is operating within spec at below inaudible distortion, they all sound EXACTLY the same. Amplifiers arent meant to color sound. WHY would you ever want that?
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post #203 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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It's all in your head.

So i should have said it like that? (what he said to me about my opinion)

I have been an audio junky for 25 years and have been playing live on stage for over 20.
If i have learned anything at all in that time its sound.

Some amps have tight bass some have muddy bass some have more bass some have less some are bright some are flat some are cold some are warm and on and on....

And unless hes heard every amp ever made i have no idea how he can even say they all sound the same. So if i say two amps hes never heard. sound different how can he say its all in my head?

That sir is SILLY.

Acoustics plays a big role and can dramatically impact how we perceive the sound ,we cant trust our ears, they can fool you.

http://ethanwiner.com/believe.html
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post #204 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 10:51 AM
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You could have said that, instead.

You act like you were provoked first. The first time in this thread that you said "that's silly" was to TVMAN1991:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488534/trade-klipsch-reference-rf-7ii-for-b-w-cm10-is-a-good-decision/90#post_23699643

That came out of nowhere.

By him saying that they all sound the same is saying everyone who has said they dont is wrong. So that provoked this first. And he has not heard every amp ever made side by side so its a silly thing to say. If he said all the amps he has heard sound the same that would be a little better.

With all due respect psg (and i do respect your opinion). If you want to agree with him thats fine. But i said nothing out of line here.

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post #205 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TVMAN1991 View Post

It's not a question of what sounds different. It's a question of PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS. I trust frequency response readouts over your "golden ears". There is no refuting the fact that if an amplifier is operating within spec at below inaudible distortion, they all sound EXACTLY the same. Amplifiers arent meant to color sound. WHY would you ever want that?

Have you seen frequency response readouts for every amp ever made?
So how are you going to say they all sound the same then? Come on keep it real.

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post #206 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Have you seen frequency response readouts for every amp ever made?
So how are you going to say they all sound the same then? Come on keep it real.

No, but they will be the same if operating within spec. I don't need to argue anymore. Enjoy your system!!!
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post #207 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Low level klipsch yes

So Klipsch THX is better than M&K...well they sy Paramount and Disney use M&K....but they also say George Lucas uses Parasound...

Today i saw a setup, that i would call it a dream setup.

- Kef Reference 205 (Front)
- Kef Reference 204 (Central)
- Kef Reference 201 (Rears)
- Subs PB-13 Ultras (x2)


Made me remember in 2008, when Home Cinema CHoice made a review on those Kefs, and they said wonders about them. Not everything is truth however. They also said Pioneer EX Speakers are good, and they sound horrible. But these Kefs look very high end.
Anyone has experience with those? Are they good for Home Theater?
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post #208 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TVMAN1991 View Post

Amps all sound exactly the same as long as they are operating within spec.

Playing 5 watts through a Krell sounds the same as 5 watts through an Emotiva. It's not opinion - just fact. The three things you SHOULD spend money on are speakers, room treatments, and a GOOD room EQ.

This assumes all amps are spec'd exactly the same.

They are not.

I'm not going to say differences are huge within a given price range, but there are differences. Usually in bass control or high end extension. But recently I a-b'd two amps that retailed within 1k of each other.

DB's were leveled and it was blind.

9 times out of 10 I was able to pick which amp was which.

That said, the differences were subtle. It was in the high end/symbols I could tell.
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post #209 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 12:48 PM
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I don't believe Amps sound the same. It all depends on how much one want to spend to justify the difference- the diminishing return in buying electronic equipment. At the end, we all listen to speakers, so I suggest to invest in great speakers and spend so so in amp. To the Op, I don't think you need an Amp but a gain, you can add an amp if you can justify the sound differences.
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post #210 of 329 Old 09-06-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Lol your not the first person to ask that question. No one knows why its a mystery to all of us wink.gif

Not that I care, but this was OT given my comments on this and any other thread I've posted in.
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