What audio components for two theaters - $20,000 budget? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

JTR Noesis:



From pg 211 of the JTR thread. Not official measurements, just what one AVS member measured using Omnimic.

That graph is not fine enough anyways.

I have owned the Klipsch subs and speakers in question. Their best attribute was sounding much bigger than they were and very cinema like. The subs can hold their own but you have to get them near cost because the FV15HP is better. The specs on the Klipsch subs are indoor specs. I say if the OP wants the cinema experience and size is not an issue go for the JBL pro 4722N's with 8530 surrounds. He can add dual OS's and he would have a system that would not only cost $11000 but kick some serious butt! The big problem is just that, this is a big system! To save even more money($3000) he can have someone build him dual GH's!
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post #32 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 02:54 PM
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North Florida huh?

 

I've got some big horns by Klipsch, they are huge.  They will probably out-perform most of these other offerings.  They will not however, stay under your budget if you go full blown HT.

 

I'm in Jacksonville.  You're more than welcome to hear them to at least get a reference point to see if you want something stunning or something outrageous.

 

You could probably get one HT system in under your price point and it would be world class, don't think you could get both.

 

Honest offer if you're near or, want to take a casual drive on a weekend.

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post #33 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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THANK YOU ALL for your feedback. I took advice from all of you; here's what I have done so far:

I ordered (and got a good deal from AVScience) and installed the Denon AVR4000 in my living room, which already has made a huge difference. Then I opened the grills of my 38 year-old huge box JBL L150 speakers and found all the foam/rubber gaskets around the speakers had disintegrated (embarrassing - guess I've been working too hard and didn't look - but I always knew the system needed help).

I had the gaskets replaced, then brought an old Klipsch Sub Woofer from the attic, so I now have powered two Klipsch Subs, and decent (if old) speakers comprising a 7.2 set-up (the side and rear speakers are also JBL's - but not quite as old). Then I did the Audessy tuning set-up with the Denon Receiver and WOW!! what a huge difference. OMG - it's like taking mufflers off our ears; my wife and I can hardly believe the differences!!

Next project is to upgrade the speakers in the Living Room, in anticipation of moving on, and building our big Theater Room in the pool cabana (described with a floor plan at the first post in this thread).

I did listen to a Klipsch Ultra 2 set-up and was surprised to be a bit underwhelmed with the sound, compared to what I was expecting. It was probably accurate sound, but did not sound as full of life as I expected - perhaps like the difference between guitarists' electronic amps and the old "full of life" tube amps we used long ago. Or maybe the stereo sales place that featured them just didn't turn them loud enough . . . .

Per recommendations on this forum, I am moving into testing other speakers. I started by ordering a set of HSU HB1MK2 bookshelf speakers and an HSU center, just to see what less expensive but wonderfully reviewed speakers will sound like, before taking the leap into spending $1,000's on speakers. Based on Forum responses, I will likely try the JTR speakers and certainly a JTR (or other) sub, as I continue my quest. Then, I will slowly work into adding some amps, I guess - or maybe I should do that first??? Thoughts people????

Will have to figure out how to add the additional amps . . . I do have receivers with additional wattage, but from what I read here, it appears that it's best to add dedicated amps. I am feeling old in my tech knowledge. Sorry I sold all my old MacIntosh Amps - I hear those are still considered good.

Thank you all again for your help. My mind is blown with the differences in sound already! Awesome forum, people!!
Larry
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post #34 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 08:43 AM
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If you need to add amps, consider Emotiva. Very well reviewed and tested and reasonably priced.

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post #35 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 08:52 AM
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If you go with JTR speakers amps will not be necessary.
An amp may still be Wanted just not Needed.smile.gif
Emos 2nd Gen amps do offer great value to performance.
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post #36 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That graph is not fine enough anyways!
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think he applied any smoothing to it.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #37 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think he applied any smoothing to it.

I would take that bet. smile.gif
Un-smoothed graphs, even with 10db vertical scale do not look that smooth.

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post #38 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

If you go with JTR speakers amps will not be necessary.
An amp may still be Wanted just not Needed.smile.gif
Emos 2nd Gen amps do offer great value to performance.
Chris

I think you mean Seaton speakers. Those are active speakers. Most JTR's are still passive. Many use Crown pro amps to drive at least the larger JTR's, which the OP many need given the size of his space.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #39 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I think you mean Seaton speakers. Those are active speakers. Most JTR's are still passive. Many use Crown pro amps to drive at least the larger JTR's, which the OP many need given the size of his space.
I was referring to the high sensitivity of the Noesis 212 @ 101dbs and the Noesis 228 @ 98dbs. The Denon X4000 will drive these speakers with enough power making an external amp unnecessary. I have a D-sonic M21500 driving my Triple 12s and although 1000 wpc @ 4ohm is not needed I want it. biggrin.gifwink.gif
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post #40 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


I was referring to the high sensitivity of the Noesis 212 @ 101dbs and the Noesis 228 @ 98dbs. The Denon X4000 will drive these speakers with enough power making an external amp unnecessary. I have a D-sonic M21500 driving my Triple 12s and although 1000 wpc @ 4ohm is not needed I want it. biggrin.gifwink.gif
Chris

I do still believe that with the fairly large room dimensions given by the OP, this will necessitate using more powerful amps with these larger speaker models, especially if they wish to play at movie-scale volumes. These receivers rarely output the specified rated wattage given their paltry power supplies. Good driver dampening specs. are helpful too.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #41 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
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I can't even get my dual 12" drivers to move in my Noesis 212's and that's with using a receiver. I'm starting to think the 101 db rating is underrated, I thought for a long time that all other speakers I've calibrated were over rated but maybe it's the other way around. For example the 228's were 5 db's quieter when I calibrated them in my room to compare to the 212's (same result months apart on 2 different comparisons) and speakers from other manufacturers are so much lower than that compared to what they should be if the sensitivity ratings were correct.

Eventually I may get an amp to power them... just to do it because I like toys - but I sure as hell don't need it.
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post #42 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I would take that bet. smile.gif
Un-smoothed graphs, even with 10db vertical scale do not look that smooth.
I went back and looked at it again. You're right. It is 1/12 smoothing.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #43 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I do still believe that with the fairly large room dimensions given by the OP, this will necessitate using more powerful amps with these larger speaker models, especially if they wish to play at movie-scale volumes. These receivers rarely output the specified rated wattage given their paltry power supplies. Good driver dampening specs. are helpful too.
I am a straight up amp guy so I will never go against someone adding an external amp. My focus is Need vs Want. Speakers with 89dbs sensitivity Need an external amp to drive them to reference while 101dbs speakers Do Not. This has been an ongoing discussion over on the JTR thread for the past year and a half. If you are interested watch the Youtube video forum member Archaea posted of himself and a couple other members using a 25 wpc T-amp to drive the the Noesis 212HT to reference level with absoloutly no problems. I never give an AVR more than 80 wpc credit No matter their claims but if 25 wpc is enough then so would be the X4000. I only pointed this out to the OP to let him know that he can always add an amp later if he feels it is warranted.
My next receiver will be a PrePro like the Integra 80.3. This way there will be No Doubt that an external amp is Needed.smile.gif
Lots of great Info in the JTR speakers thread pertaining to the Need vs Want of an external amp vs AVR & JTR's HS/HE speaker designs.
2 cents
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post #44 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I can't even get my dual 12" drivers to move in my Noesis 212's and that's with using a receiver. I'm starting to think the 101 db rating is underrated, I thought for a long time that all other speakers I've calibrated were over rated but maybe it's the other way around. For example the 228's were 5 db's quieter when I calibrated them in my room to compare to the 212's (same result months apart on 2 different comparisons) and speakers from other manufacturers are so much lower than that compared to what they should be if the sensitivity ratings were correct.

Eventually I may get an amp to power them... just to do it because I like toys - but I sure as hell don't need it.

Even with my clones powering my Noesis, the 12's still don't do much. It's not your reciever, I think it's just the way she goes...tongue.gif

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #45 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Even with my clones powering my Noesis, the 12's still don't do much. It's not your reciever, I think it's just the way she goes...tongue.gif

Ha, to seem them move much you would probably have to put them outside and let the clones completely rip. Hmm... sounds like fun. smile.gif
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post #46 of 48 Old 09-18-2013, 03:24 PM
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The 228's on the other hand, you can really get those 8's moving. I think it just comes back to the fact that the 212's are such overkill that they aren't even breaking a sweat even at way above reference.
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post #47 of 48 Old 09-19-2013, 08:55 AM
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Take a look at QSC also. Their system designed for a "smaller" room would work great for your application.

http://qsccinema.com/solutions/small-room-solutions/
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post #48 of 48 Old 09-25-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

Based on your rec's, I just ordered a Denon 4000 from AVS for the Living Room, to start. Do you suggest additional amplification beyond the Denon 4000 for the fronts, side and rear speakers?

First, I think you did a great job selecting your AVR. Denon, Onkyo, Integra, Anthem, etc are all great brands and have high quality power supplies and amplifiers in their flagship models. Additional amplification would be possible with that AVR since it has preamp outputs and the need would depend on what kind of speakers you get and how sensitive they are. There are many different sounding speakers so you will need to decide what kind you like – in my opinion (just my opinion, please don’t flame me) they can be grouped into three main categories:

Horn speakers with horn loaded compression drivers are usually “hot” in the high frequencies and are very sensitive / efficient – your AVR would almost certainly drive these to room filling / reference levels – look at Klipsch and JBL speakers. You either like these or you don’t – everyone loves how efficient they are but many (including me) find them to be very “fatiguing” even after a hour of listening – but that may be OK if you are only doing movie soundtracks.

Standard speakers / slightly bright speakers are less bright in the high frequency than horn speakers but are usually still fairly sensitive. These are the most common type of speakers and range from the low end bookshelf to the high end multi-driver towers and from mainstream to audiophile brands – Polk, Energy, Infinity, Definitive Technology, Paradigm, Focal – the prices climb from there.

Warm speakers are usually higher end “music only” and are out of my price range so I am definitely not the person to suggest brands. These tend to be less sensitive and would probably require external amplification especially if you want theater-like volume levels.

If I had that much to spend, I would make one room a reference room and spend 25%- 30% of the gear budget on some excellent speakers and put “good” speakers in the other room. Big floor standing towers can put out sound like you cannot believe and you could go from some modestly priced Polk towers to some outrageously powerful Paradigms. Spend at least as much on your center channel speaker as you do any other speaker – it is the primary speaker of your home theater and will be responsible for all dialog and much of the action.

http://www.polkaudio.com/products/rtia9
http://www.polkaudio.com/products/lsim704c
http://www.polkaudio.com/products/fxia6

http://paradigm.com/products/collection=reference/model=studio-100/page=overview
http://paradigm.com/products/collection=reference/model=studio-cc-690/page=overview
http://paradigm.com/products/collection=reference/model=studio-adp-590/page=overview
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

I will power the subs separately, I gather, right?

Most modern subs are powered subwoofers where the amplifier (and more importantly its frequency response) are tailored to the subwoofer driver / cabinet to give you much flatter response. For simplicity alone, I would suggest using powered subs. One previous suggestion that I saw that I totally agree with is the use of SVS SB13-Ultra subs. You just need to decide if you want ported subs (lower frequency, louder) or sealed subs (supposedly more accurate, tighter bass) – both would be excellent choices here – they even sell them in pairs at a discount. If you can afford more for one of the rooms, JL Audio and Paradigm make world class subwoofers.

http://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-pb12-plus#.UkM6AsZJOTM
http://www.svsound.com/dual-subwoofers/dual-sb13-ultra#.UkM6AcZJOTM

For electronics, I would suggest doing one room with your AVR and the other room (the one least likely to annoy your neighbors) with more powerful separates. Start with a preamp / surround processor (prepro) and add a big 7 channel amplifier. The best prepros have amazing performance but are are real budget killers which would easily swallow 25% - 50% of your budget (Anthem, Arcam, Bryston, etc). Look at the mid-fi brands like Integra, Onkyo, Marantz, Outlaw, etc. for great performance at much lower cost. The other plus here is if you ever have to upgrade the amp can be part of your new system. I really like the price / performance of Outlaw Audio amplifiers – they are made by ATI which is considered an “insider brand” as they are not very well known but used my many in the business – very beefy power supplies and amplifiers. The 7200 (or 7700 w/ balanced inputs) is a 90lb 7 x 200w beast of an amp and on sale this month.

http://outlawaudio.com/products/7200.html
http://outlawaudio.com/products/975.html

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
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