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post #1 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I love this site, and SO APPRECIATE the care and effort participants show here, sharing your knowledge with others in need. Your words are greatly appreciated, folks wink.gif

I really need some advice on audio components for Home Theater applications. My wife and I love good sound, but the speakers in our house Living Room are ancient - big 40 year old JB Lansings. We are building a new pool cabana which includes a very large room for 1) entertaining by the pool in the daytime, and 2) having a Cabana Theater for movie viewing at night. Additionally, we would like to upgrade the audio components of our Living Room - a pretty large room in a 1932 log house. Both rooms have high ceilings. Thus, we have two theaters to build, and need advice on the audio components.

We can spend about $20,000 (combined) on audio for the two rooms, which are in separate buildings [maybe figure $10,000 per room, or $8K on the Living Room, and $12K on the Cabana Theater?]. Both will mainly be used for Home Theater movies, e.g., DirecTV and DVDs. Being an "ancient one," I don't know much about streaming video, if it's good or bad, etc.

Given a $20,000 budget, what Audio Components would you install in these two Home Theaters?
Living Room is 20' wide x 29' long x 15' high vaulted gable ceiling , all carpeted with log walls, already have an AV Receiver described below
Cabana Theater (a separate new building, all new construction) will be 27' Wide X 32' Long, with 17' vaulted gable ceiling. The walls, ceiling and floors are all hard surfaces (can't carpet cause of people coming in wet, from pool).

EXISTING LIVING ROOM

Present components: I recently bought a Panasonic Projector TV for our Living Room (PT-AE8000U) which we love. It's a good upgrade from our former projector TV, tho' I see others in that price range have better reviews. Still, we have 3-D glasses for that projector TV. I figured that if we get the same Projector for the Cabana Theater, we can use the same glasses in the Cabana Theater.
NEW THEATER ROOM
Here's a layout of the Cabana Theater (building it now):

WHAT AUDIO COMPONENTS WOULD YOU SUGGEST?
SPEAKERS:
As we age, we begin to lose the middle of the audio spectrum. My wife and I both notice we miss the words in movie dialogs (maybe because we just have old technology). I used to do Audio shows for the Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco and won some prizes for AV shows, but that was long ago. I know next to nothing about modern speaker systems.

Just perusing the Internet, I was looking at The Versus Grand Tower , but the Cabana Theater room is so large, I'm not sure how they would do. Versus offers a 30 day free in-home trial, so we could try them first in our home living room - the other room we want to upgrade, and see what we think. That's where we have the old JBL's I thought I should likely replace. I was also thinking about the Goldenear Triton Two Series.

There is also teh question of a single 12" Sub, or two 10" Sub-Woofers.

AMP & PRE-AMP:
My Living Room presently uses a Sony AV receiver STR-DN1030. I am happy with that, but after reading about the choices now available, I am sure there is much better out there. We hope for good discrete motion picture sound in both the Cabana Theater, and our home Living room.

THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME SPEND MONEY!
Thanks people, for any help you can suggest. We've worked hard over life to get ahead enough to build this. We can't afford the moon, but thought some of you might like to advise us old hippies what you'd do if you had $20,000 to put into audio for these two theaters.
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post #2 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 01:45 PM
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Since both proposed theaters are large rooms (with high vaulted ceilings, I'd say VERY large rooms) and would take some serious amps, speakers, and subs to fill the rooms with adequate sound that do them justice, would you be willing to perhaps equip one at a time?

Choose the room you think is most important and would get the most use or has the highest priority in your mind, and then put the absolute bulk of your budget into that one room. Then rebuild your reserves and update the equipment in the other.

Maybe since the Cabana is being built as we speak, use your older equipment in the living room theater for now and use the $20,000 for the new wing. Put the resources mainly towards the amps, speakers, and subs necessary to get the job done and get a mid-level receiver for your surround processor (rather than some über expensive pre-amp that will be outdated in a couple years).

I don't know how far along the Cabana build is, but have you considered an acoustically transparent screen (with a false wall) and placing the front left/center/right array behind the screen like in a commercial movie theater or dubbing stage? You definitely have enough space and AT screens are not as expensive as they once were. That way all three front speakers can be vertically aligned and 100% identical, and you'll have the assurance that dialog will be reproduced crystal clear compared to a compromised horizontal center speaker.

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post #3 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 04:52 PM
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First of all, for those rooms, you will need more than a single 12" or two 10" subs. That is a lot of space to pressurize and you are likely to not hear any bass if your subs can't handle that space, especially given your seating locations (bass is always weakest in the center of the room). That's why I am going to suggest you allocate fully half your money to subs. Anyway here is a 10k system that will work well for both rooms:

Front LCR: Pi Three, these are very capable speakers that will handle those large spaces with no problems. The performance measurements are very good, so you shouldn't have any problems with dialogue intelligibility. With a decent finish, I would expect a set to come in at $3k shipped. Those speakers are easy to power to, and won't need a separate amplifier to get loud.

Surround speakears: Hsu HB-1 mk2, capable and inexpensive surround speakers. A set of four will come in to $736. Use this Videosecu bookshelf speaker mount to mount them, it is very good mount and inexpensive.

For subwoofers I would get two of either Seaton Submersives, Funk 18.0s, or JTR Captivators. The Funk sub will look the nicest and still have very high performance. Look for the summer sale on their home page, a pair will cost you $5100. The JTR will get the loudest and dig the deepest but looks pretty utilitarian. The Seaton Submersive doesn't look bad and has excellent performance as well. Two of any of those will set you back about $5k.

For an AVR, I would get the new Denon AVR-X4000. It has a terrific room correction equalizer, and can automatically dial-in two subwoofers independently. This is a very nice feature that will allow you to get a lot more performance out of your subs. $1300 shipped.
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post #4 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

I love this site, and SO APPRECIATE the care and effort participants show here, sharing your knowledge with others in need. Your words are greatly appreciated, folks wink.gif

I really need some advice on audio components for Home Theater applications. My wife and I love good sound, but the speakers in our house Living Room are ancient - big 40 year old JB Lansings. We are building a new pool cabana which includes a very large room for 1) entertaining by the pool in the daytime, and 2) having a Cabana Theater for movie viewing at night. Additionally, we would like to upgrade the audio components of our Living Room - a pretty large room in a 1932 log house. Both rooms have high ceilings. Thus, we have two theaters to build, and need advice on the audio components.

We can spend about $20,000 (combined) on audio for the two rooms, which are in separate buildings [maybe figure $10,000 per room, or $8K on the Living Room, and $12K on the Cabana Theater?]. Both will mainly be used for Home Theater movies, e.g., DirecTV and DVDs. Being an "ancient one," I don't know much about streaming video, if it's good or bad, etc.

Given a $20,000 budget, what Audio Components would you install in these two Home Theaters?
Living Room is 20' wide x 29' long x 15' high vaulted gable ceiling , all carpeted with log walls, already have an AV Receiver described below
Cabana Theater (a separate new building, all new construction) will be 27' Wide X 32' Long, with 17' vaulted gable ceiling. The walls, ceiling and floors are all hard surfaces (can't carpet cause of people coming in wet, from pool).

EXISTING LIVING ROOM

Present components: I recently bought a Panasonic Projector TV for our Living Room (PT-AE8000U) which we love. It's a good upgrade from our former projector TV, tho' I see others in that price range have better reviews. Still, we have 3-D glasses for that projector TV. I figured that if we get the same Projector for the Cabana Theater, we can use the same glasses in the Cabana Theater.
NEW THEATER ROOM
Here's a layout of the Cabana Theater (building it now):

WHAT AUDIO COMPONENTS WOULD YOU SUGGEST?
SPEAKERS:
As we age, we begin to lose the middle of the audio spectrum. My wife and I both notice we miss the words in movie dialogs (maybe because we just have old technology). I used to do Audio shows for the Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco and won some prizes for AV shows, but that was long ago. I know next to nothing about modern speaker systems.

Just perusing the Internet, I was looking at The Versus Grand Tower , but the Cabana Theater room is so large, I'm not sure how they would do. Versus offers a 30 day free in-home trial, so we could try them first in our home living room - the other room we want to upgrade, and see what we think. That's where we have the old JBL's I thought I should likely replace. I was also thinking about the Goldenear Triton Two Series.

There is also teh question of a single 12" Sub, or two 10" Sub-Woofers.

AMP & PRE-AMP:
My Living Room presently uses a Sony AV receiver STR-DN1030. I am happy with that, but after reading about the choices now available, I am sure there is much better out there. We hope for good discrete motion picture sound in both the Cabana Theater, and our home Living room.

THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME SPEND MONEY!
Thanks people, for any help you can suggest. We've worked hard over life to get ahead enough to build this. We can't afford the moon, but thought some of you might like to advise us old hippies what you'd do if you had $20,000 to put into audio for these two theaters.

I know that we are in the speaker forum, but what 12' wide screen are you planning on pairing with a Panny 8000? As for 3D, you had better be getting a screen with 2.0 gain or higher. For 2D you are going to need 2.0 gain, if you want to use best image mode. Even with a 2.0 gain screen, high lamp best image mode you are only looking at a max of 15 Foot Lamberts. That is enough light with a new lamp, but once the lamp gets a few hundred hours on it, you will not be able to use best image mode.

For the Cabana I would go with three Triad Gold in-room speakers and Triad Silver surrounds. For subs my first choice would be a pair of SVS SB13-Ultras. You would also need a better AVR, like a Denon AVR-4520. All of this is within your Cabana budget.

I would go with two subs with 12" drivers minimum. For this quality of a system, I would never consider a pair of 10" subs.

If you would like to discuss this or speakers, give me a call.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
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post #5 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 06:34 PM
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Mike,

Do you think the Triad Gold's and Silver surrounds will be able to fill a 27w x 32l x 17h foot room with ease? I'd think the Platinum's with Gold Surround's would be the better choice. Am I wrong here?

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post #6 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 07:12 PM
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Regarding the Seaton SubMersive subs, you can now get a Master/Slave combo for 4k shipped.

JTR Noesis 228 (LCR)
Polk Audio LSiM 703 (Surrounds)
Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)
Denon 3312 (Receiver)
Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)
Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player)
Sharp 80" 3D
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post #7 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 07:53 PM
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For mainly movies, I would just get all Klipsch THX Ultra2 speakers & subs and basically turn both your rooms into THX Ultra2 certified rooms. The KL650 & KL525 are ultra-accurate speakers & can play very loudly per THX Ultra2 certifications. They are among the best measured speakers in the world in terms of frequency response measurements (+/- 1dB).

The dealer cost for them is about 61% off MSRP, so a nice dealer could help you out, especially if you bought the whole system for both rooms. wink.gif

Unless you are playing loud frat parties, their 92dB/2.83v/m sensitivity should be efficient enough for something like a Denon X4000 or 4520, which the same nice dealer could help get. smile.gif

This is one idea.

Here is the Audioholics & HTM reviews & measurements.

http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/klipsch-thx-ultra2

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-thx-ultra2-speaker-system
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post #8 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 08:40 PM
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I say if you go for the Klipsch setup, skip the Klipsch subwoofers. Seaton Submersive, JTR Captivator, Funk 18 or or Quad Power Sound XS30 is what I would be looking at. Subwoofers do not have to match the speakers, only for the looks if thats what you would want.
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post #9 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 08:40 PM
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Again, to each his own, but I still like Triads better than Klipsch. It just depends on the OP's tastes. smile.gif

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post #10 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I say if you go for the Klipsch setup, skip the Klipsch subwoofers. Seaton Submersive, JTR Captivator, Funk 18 or or Quad Power Sound XS30 is what I would be looking at. Subwoofers do not have to match the speakers, only for the looks if thats what you would want.
Well, they are THX Ultra2 certified subs, so they'll be just fine, especially if you can get them close to dealer cost of < $600 each sub.
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post #11 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Mike,

Do you think the Triad Gold's and Silver surrounds will be able to fill a 27w x 32l x 17h foot room with ease? I'd think the Platinum's with Gold Surround's would be the better choice. Am I wrong here?

Gold LCR plus Silver LCR's for surrounds is more than enough for my 25.5 X 17 X 10 ft room....................I can't go beyond -10 db's on Marantz 8801. Giving the Gold's 400 watt @ 4 ohms is plenty IMHO.

Besides.............Plat's for LCR is $2500 over budget........and that's without subs and surrounds. wink.gif
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post #12 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Again, to each his own, but I still like Triads better than Klipsch. It just depends on the OP's tastes. smile.gif

Subjectively anything is possible. Everyone has a different opinion. A friend of mine is a dealer and he hates the sound of Triad speakers. That's his opinion. Others may like them.

But OBJECTIVELY most speakers, including the Triad, will not measure better than the KL650 & KL525. Not even close.
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post #13 of 48 Old 09-01-2013, 09:52 PM
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Then I wonder what Triad Gold LCR's for fronts and surrounds would be like since the OP's room is even bigger... wink.gif

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post #14 of 48 Old 09-02-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

For mainly movies, I would just get all Klipsch THX Ultra2 speakers & subs and basically turn both your rooms into THX Ultra2 certified rooms. The KL650 & KL525 are ultra-accurate speakers & can play very loudly per THX Ultra2 certifications. They are among the best measured speakers in the world in terms of frequency response measurements (+/- 1dB).

The dealer cost for them is about 61% off MSRP, so a nice dealer could help you out, especially if you bought the whole system for both rooms. wink.gif

Unless you are playing loud frat parties, their 92dB/2.83v/m sensitivity should be efficient enough for something like a Denon X4000 or 4520, which the same nice dealer could help get. smile.gif

This is one idea.

Here is the Audioholics & HTM reviews & measurements.

http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/klipsch-thx-ultra2

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-thx-ultra2-speaker-system

Look like a good choice due the OP big room.
Personally I got the aperion Verus Grand tower and love them for details and spatius sound but that is a big room to fill. I would contact aperion and ask them if they could work in such a big environment. They are knowed to give honest answer.

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post #15 of 48 Old 09-02-2013, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

I love this site,
THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME SPEND MONEY!
Thanks people, for any help you can suggest. We've worked hard over life to get ahead enough to build this. We can't afford the moon, but thought some of you might like to advise us old hippies what you'd do if you had $20,000 to put into audio for these two theaters.

The above statement is the reason why you should treat yourself to some speakers and subs that are Exciting!!! That is what HT is all about.smile.gif

Main theater
3 x Noesis 2228 HT $3600
4 x Slanted 8s $3600
2 x Orbit Shifter or $6000
2 X Cap S2
Total = $13200 - 10% discount = below $12000


LR
3 x Noesis 228 HT $3600
2 x Slanted/Single 8s $1800
1 x Captivator 2400 or $2500
1 x Submersive HP

Total $7900 - 10% discount = below $7500


These 2 systems would be Unreal!!! To have both at the same house would bring on Perma-grin till the day they lay the owner to rest.biggrin.gif

There are more options for the subwoofers but the above is a good example of just what can be accomplished.

Do yourself a favor and take all of our advice with a grain of salt. You can call Jeff at JTR and ask as many questions as needed.

Good Luck
Chris

Chris


FS: 3 x 2012 JTR Triple 12 Excellent condition
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...iple-12-a.html
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post #16 of 48 Old 09-02-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Well, they are THX Ultra2 certified subs, so they'll be just fine, especially if you can get them close to dealer cost of < $600 each sub.

For $600 they might be pretty decent subwoofers but no where near the performance of the JTR or Seaton offerings. The Klipsch speakers are ok but if it was my own money it would be and all JTR setup for sure.
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post #17 of 48 Old 09-03-2013, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES. Based on your rec's, I just ordered a Denon 4000 from AVS for the Living Room, to start. Do you suggest additional amplification beyond the Denon 4000 for the fronts, side and rear speakers? I will power the subs separately, I gather, right?

My old speakers (already here) are HUGE JBL L-150 fronts, and I am using JBL 82T speakers for my rears, and for two other rooms (little Sonys for the middles). All of my JBL speakers are old, but sound good to my unpolished ear. Think I should keep them, or replace them with the things you suggest? Are they sale-able?

I am going to hear a Klipsch Ultra 2 Speaker setup at my local dealer tomorrow. When you said the dealer cost is "61% off", did you mean the dealer pays 61%, or pays 39% (which would technically be 61% off)?

Before this Forum, I was looking at HSU Subs, or maybe one big sub and their MLM sub (a bit higher frequency bass). Any thoughts on that for the big Cabana room? Otherwise, I will be looking at solely the Seaton Submersives, JTR Captivators, and Funk 18.0s - per your suggestions. I will get two subs of whatever sort, per your recommendations.

Final question: We get a LOT of lightning here in North Florida. Any thoughts on a good surge protector, and or (better for the projector) battery backup/surge protector for the Projector, and for the Audio Components? I am connected to a DirecTV dish as well as the usual electric supplies.

THANKS AGAIN FOLKS.
VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR GUIDANCE.
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post #18 of 48 Old 09-03-2013, 04:27 PM
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As for the additional power requirements beyond the built in receiver amps... it really depends on the speakers chosen. How efficient they are, if you're going to play at or near reference level, etc. etc. I notice that a lot of JTR speaker users are going with Crown pro amps in the power vs. price category (the XLS 1500 and above). This may be wise for such a large space. The Klipsch's could use some extra power if driving them hard.

Triad recommends Parasound amps, especially their Halo models, but you don't have to be held to that. They're more refined speakers to my hears and could use a more "musical" amp over pure horsepower.

As for keeping your old speakers... I had mentioned outfitting one theater at a time and using the bulk of your budget for the theater you want to focus on right now. Then use the older equipment in the other theater area until such time as you can update them. A lot of this comes down to the sheer size of each room... good speakers and amps needed for both areas, which would chew into your budget quickly.

First line of defense for power surges is a quality whole house unit at the main panel that will take the brunt of the spike and save more than just your electronics. Some homeowner's insurance will give you a discount for adding one. The choice of model type depends on the power load you draw from the city utility going into your home. As for secondary line of defense surge suppression for your HT equipment, Surgex, Brickwall, and Furman are good brands to check out (totally non sacrificial to semi-non sacrificial designs). If you suffer from recurrent power outages, I would suggest quality UPS units for your projectors to allow you to shut them down properly during a blackout and allow the bulbs to cool. This can save you many heartaches in the long run.

At least two large subwoofers with robust plate amps for each room would be my guess. I don't think you'd need the MLM mid-bass unit as long as the speaker and sub choice blend well.

As I'm sure you've noticed, speaker choices are quite subjective... I like Triads above the units suggested, others like JTR's better than Klipsch THX Ultra2's, etc. It may take a bit of demoing and trial and error to get exactly what you want to match your listening tastes.

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post #19 of 48 Old 09-03-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES. Based on your rec's, I just ordered a Denon 4000 from AVS for the Living Room, to start. Do you suggest additional amplification beyond the Denon 4000 for the fronts, side and rear speakers? I will power the subs separately, I gather, right?

My old speakers (already here) are HUGE JBL L-150 fronts, and I am using JBL 82T speakers for my rears, and for two other rooms (little Sonys for the middles). All of my JBL speakers are old, but sound good to my unpolished ear. Think I should keep them, or replace them with the things you suggest? Are they sale-able?

I am going to hear a Klipsch Ultra 2 Speaker setup at my local dealer tomorrow. When you said the dealer cost is "61% off", did you mean the dealer pays 61%, or pays 39% (which would technically be 61% off)?

Before this Forum, I was looking at HSU Subs, or maybe one big sub and their MLM sub (a bit higher frequency bass). Any thoughts on that for the big Cabana room? Otherwise, I will be looking at solely the Seaton Submersives, JTR Captivators, and Funk 18.0s - per your suggestions. I will get two subs of whatever sort, per your recommendations.

Final question: We get a LOT of lightning here in North Florida. Any thoughts on a good surge protector, and or (better for the projector) battery backup/surge protector for the Projector, and for the Audio Components? I am connected to a DirecTV dish as well as the usual electric supplies.

THANKS AGAIN FOLKS.
VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR GUIDANCE.

Do you mean the HSU MBM? I have one, and it's nice if it's directly behind your chair (and I do mean right behind it) for nice tight punchy nearfield bass but it's really only great for the one person sitting in the chair in front of it. If that's not how your room is setup I would skip the mbm.

I would also highly recommend JTR or Seaton for your subs.
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post #20 of 48 Old 09-04-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lwurn View Post

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES. Based on your rec's, I just ordered a Denon 4000 from AVS for the Living Room, to start. Do you suggest additional amplification beyond the Denon 4000 for the fronts, side and rear speakers? I will power the subs separately, I gather, right?

My old speakers (already here) are HUGE JBL L-150 fronts, and I am using JBL 82T speakers for my rears, and for two other rooms (little Sonys for the middles). All of my JBL speakers are old, but sound good to my unpolished ear. Think I should keep them, or replace them with the things you suggest? Are they sale-able?

I am going to hear a Klipsch Ultra 2 Speaker setup at my local dealer tomorrow. When you said the dealer cost is "61% off", did you mean the dealer pays 61%, or pays 39% (which would technically be 61% off)?

Before this Forum, I was looking at HSU Subs, or maybe one big sub and their MLM sub (a bit higher frequency bass). Any thoughts on that for the big Cabana room? Otherwise, I will be looking at solely the Seaton Submersives, JTR Captivators, and Funk 18.0s - per your suggestions. I will get two subs of whatever sort, per your recommendations.

Final question: We get a LOT of lightning here in North Florida. Any thoughts on a good surge protector, and or (better for the projector) battery backup/surge protector for the Projector, and for the Audio Components? I am connected to a DirecTV dish as well as the usual electric supplies.

THANKS AGAIN FOLKS.
VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR GUIDANCE.

The dealer would pay around $588 for a $1500 MSRP. Of course, dealers have to make a little money. wink.gif

But you should still get substantial savings.

The most important factor is how any speaker sounds to you.

Everyone has his opinion about which speaker sounds better. It's 100% subjective. Objectively the KL650 & KL525 measure 100% better than any of these other speakers. You can ACTUALLY SEE the measurements on Audioholics & Home Theater Magazine.

But subjectively anyone can claim any speaker sounds the best. biggrin.gif

Just listen for yourself. You be the judge. wink.gif And don't let other people tell you what speaker SHOULD sound the best to you. biggrin.gif

Now for subwoofers, the bigger more expensive subs from Funk, Seaton, JTR will be able to output more bass. For example, they may be able to output 125dBC vs 115dBC of the Klipsch THX U2 subs. But practically, in real life, do you really care about the actual numbers or how they ACTUALLY sound ? Your dealer can let you borrow the subs and you can see for yourself.

Also check out the Rythmik FV15HP - 2 would cost about $2400 shipped.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz: Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8.

So dual FV15HP can output ~ 111dBC @ 20Hz, ~120dBC @ 32Hz, ~123dBC @ 40Hz. Keep in mind that THX reference level for sub is a peak of 115dBC.

But sure, more money, bigger subs usually gets you a few more decibels.

Saving money is good. wink.gif
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post #21 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

""Well, they are THX Ultra2 certified subs, so they'll be just fine, especially if you can get them close to dealer cost of < $600 each sub.

For $600 they might be pretty decent subwoofers but no where near the performance of the JTR or Seaton offerings. The Klipsch speakers are ok but if it was my own money it would be and all JTR setup for sure."""

+1000
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post #22 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by seifer300 View Post

For $600 they might be pretty decent subwoofers but no where near the performance of the JTR or Seaton offerings. The Klipsch speakers are ok but if it was my own money it would be and all JTR setup for sure."""

+1000

-1,000,000.

Care to elaborate how many more SPLs the Seaton or JTR can output from 2 meters ground plane outdoors with LESS THAN 10% THD @ 20Hz, 32Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz?

Any actual measurements to back up your +1000 recommendations?

The goal is to achieve THX reference, which is 115dBC for subs. The dual Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs are THX Ultra2 CERTIFIED for rooms w/ seats > 13 ft from the speakers.

So what if the Seaton & JTR subs can output 130dBC (at who knows what THD% & frequency, distance, standard), instead of 115dBC? Especially if you use 3 or four subs, which will not only improve bass response smoothness, but increase SPL by 6 - 9 dB?

It's like owning a Daytona race car when the fastest you can drive is 65 MPH. eek.gif
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post #23 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The dealer would pay around $588 for a $1500 MSRP. Of course, dealers have to make a little money. wink.gif

But you should still get substantial savings.

The most important factor is how any speaker sounds to you.

Everyone has his opinion about which speaker sounds better. It's 100% subjective. Objectively the KL650 & KL525 measure 100% better than any of these other speakers. You can ACTUALLY SEE the measurements on Audioholics & Home Theater Magazine.

But subjectively anyone can claim any speaker sounds the best. biggrin.gif

Just listen for yourself. You be the judge. wink.gif And don't let other people tell you what speaker SHOULD sound the best to you. biggrin.gif

Now for subwoofers, the bigger more expensive subs from Funk, Seaton, JTR will be able to output more bass. For example, they may be able to output 125dBC vs 115dBC of the Klipsch THX U2 subs. But practically, in real life, do you really care about the actual numbers or how they ACTUALLY sound ? Your dealer can let you borrow the subs and you can see for yourself.

Also check out the Rythmik FV15HP - 2 would cost about $2400 shipped.

CEA Standard (THD <10%, 2 Meters) SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz: Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8.

So dual FV15HP can output ~ 111dBC @ 20Hz, ~120dBC @ 32Hz, ~123dBC @ 40Hz. Keep in mind that THX reference level for sub is a peak of 115dBC.

But sure, more money, bigger subs usually gets you a few more decibels.

Saving money is good. wink.gif

I normally agree with you but not this time. I own KL650 and KL525 and I am sure the measurements are lovely but I still boxed them up and replaced them with JTR Noesis and Tekton Seas Pens because as you recommended I listened for myself and cannot recommend the Klipsch over the JTR or Tekton. Especially for music, the Klipsch sound horrible. Movies they sound wonderful but not as good as my other speakers. I am sure Jeff has measurements I can see but I don't care to see them because even if it resembled Bose like results I would still keep my JTR and Tekton setups over the Klipsch.

As for the subs you are right that saving money is good but the OP would not be saving money when he/she buys the Klipsch subs then down the road replaces them with JTR or Seaton subs anyway. May as well pay for it now and not have to replace them later. I know you of all people can relate to upgraditis due to the amount of speakers you have owned. I have owned my fair share but I am sure you blow me out of the water on that one! smile.gif

Please do not take this as an attack on measurements. I have nothing against them or science or anything but by listening to all speakers mentioned above science would tell me to pick the Klipsch but if I told people that I would be lying to them and myself.
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post #24 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

-1,000,000.

Care to elaborate how many more SPLs the Seaton or JTR can output from 2 meters ground plane outdoors with LESS THAN 10% THD @ 20Hz, 32Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz?

Any actual measurements to back up your +1000 recommendations?

The goal is to achieve THX reference, which is 115dBC for subs. The dual Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs are THX Ultra2 CERTIFIED for rooms w/ seats > 13 ft from the speakers.

So what if the Seaton & JTR subs can output 130dBC (at who knows what THD% & frequency, distance, standard), instead of 115dBC? Especially if you use 3 or four subs, which will not only improve bass response smoothness, but increase SPL by 6 - 9 dB?

It's like owning a Daytona race car when the fastest you can drive is 65 MPH. eek.gif

I do not want to argue with you bro. I disagree with you the sooner you get over it the happier you will be!!
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post #25 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 11:31 AM
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You have an awfully huge room with a lot of doors and windows in it. A lot of acoustical challenges. Is there perhaps another room you could use for your HT that is smaller with fewer windows and could be closed off?

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
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Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
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post #26 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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I do not want to argue with you bro. I disagree with you the sooner you get over it the happier you will be!!
Okay, fine. I'm over it. tongue.gif
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post #27 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 12:08 PM
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I normally agree with you but not this time. I own KL650 and KL525 and I am sure the measurements are lovely but I still boxed them up and replaced them with JTR Noesis and Tekton Seas Pens because as you recommended I listened for myself and cannot recommend the Klipsch over the JTR or Tekton. Especially for music, the Klipsch sound horrible. Movies they sound wonderful but not as good as my other speakers. I am sure Jeff has measurements I can see but I don't care to see them because even if it resembled Bose like results I would still keep my JTR and Tekton setups over the Klipsch.

As for the subs you are right that saving money is good but the OP would not be saving money when he/she buys the Klipsch subs then down the road replaces them with JTR or Seaton subs anyway. May as well pay for it now and not have to replace them later. I know you of all people can relate to upgraditis due to the amount of speakers you have owned. I have owned my fair share but I am sure you blow me out of the water on that one! smile.gif

Please do not take this as an attack on measurements. I have nothing against them or science or anything but by listening to all speakers mentioned above science would tell me to pick the Klipsch but if I told people that I would be lying to them and myself.

No way I'm winning this debate, huh?

Even if the JTR measured like Bose, huh? biggrin.gif

If you ask JTR to give you actual measurements and you show me those measurements, I will be a JTR fanboy. wink.gif

I can get over you not agreeing with me.

But I cannot get over companies hiding their speaker measurements and giving me excuses. biggrin.gif

So prove me wrong and get me some measurements for the love of gods. eek.gif
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post #28 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

No way I'm winning this debate, huh?

Even if the JTR measured like Bose, huh? biggrin.gif

If you ask JTR to give you actual measurements and you show me those measurements, I will be a JTR fanboy. wink.gif

I can get over you not agreeing with me.

But I cannot get over companies hiding their speaker measurements and giving me excuses. biggrin.gif

So prove me wrong and get me some measurements for the love of gods. eek.gif

The thing is I do not care about proving you wrong. I just said my opinion and that was that. smile.gif

However, I am sure you can get an answer to your measurements concern by asking in the JTR thread or by calling Jeff. I know the man is busy but I am sure if you ask him he can give you an answer.

Take it easy bro.
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post #29 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seifer300 View Post

The thing is I do not care about proving you wrong. I just said my opinion and that was that. smile.gif

However, I am sure you can get an answer to your measurements concern by asking in the JTR thread or by calling Jeff. I know the man is busy but I am sure if you ask him he can give you an answer.

Take it easy bro.

You will not find 3rd party or even manufacturer's measurements for any of the JTR speakers in the JTR thread.

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post #30 of 48 Old 09-05-2013, 01:37 PM
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JTR Noesis:



From pg 211 of the JTR thread. Not official measurements, just what one AVS member measured using Omnimic.

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
Processor: Emotiva UMC-200
Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
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