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post #91 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

I'm not dumb, I can still find excellent deals. rolleyes.gif you think the only solution is to beg for discounts.

Who's begging? It's called NEGOTIATION. It doesn't mean BEGGING.

You're not getting big discounts on high quality speakers like Revel, B&W, KEF, RBH, etc., without some kind of negotiation.
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post #92 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 10:05 AM
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Lets put it this way ,not all salesmen are polite .
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post #93 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 10:27 AM
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Lets put it this way ,not all salesmen are polite .

I agree with you, but they should be. A sales person is asking to build a relationship with a customer and it is hard to do that with someone that is rude or acts like they are doing you a favor, just by talking to you. You tend to not trust that person.

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post #94 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 10:47 AM
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Lets put it this way ,not all salesmen are polite .

I agree 100%.

But you want to find the good one who will become your friend. wink.gif

I can't imagine buying anymore speakers. But if I do, I know EXACTLY which dealer I will talk to. wink.gif

I wish I had bought my Salon2 from a friend of mine who is a dealer. biggrin.gif
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post #95 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 12:41 PM
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Any luck selling your gear? Saw it on Craigslist and thought about e-mailing you about the TAD's and offering some ridiculous lowball and see what you said hahah.

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post #96 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 01:32 PM
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As a Martin Logan Motion 40 owner, I could only read the description of the Motion 12's and smile. It is amazing how close they get to electrostatic greatness without being half as picky in setup/placement. I've seen numerous people (probably commysman) write the ML motion series off, as if Martin Logan doesn't know the first thing about making a traditional speaker...lol.

To describe the 40's, read the 12's review and then imagine improved bass response and furniture grade cabinetry that looks like it would be at home on a speaker costing twice as much. Simply can't recommend the Motion line enough, those damn ribbons are fantastic!
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post #97 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 03:25 PM
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As a Martin Logan Motion 40 owner, I could only read the description of the Motion 12's and smile. It is amazing how close they get to electrostatic greatness without being half as picky in setup/placement. I've seen numerous people (probably commysman) write the ML motion series off, as if Martin Logan doesn't know the first thing about making a traditional speaker...lol.

To describe the 40's, read the 12's review and then imagine improved bass response and furniture grade cabinetry that looks like it would be at home on a speaker costing twice as much. Simply can't recommend the Motion line enough, those damn ribbons are fantastic!

I got to do a quick BB Magnolia demo of the ESLs, 40s and 20s a month or so ago.

For some reason the 20s sounded harsh and overly bright. Can't figure out why. The 12s I listened to a few years ago sounded terrific.

As for the 40s. Switching as fast as the BB employee could between that and the ESL it was eerie how similar they sounded to the ESLs. The ESLs sounded a little bigger but both sounded quite a bit a like as they were set up. I only slightly preferred the ESLs. The 40s had more bass and what it had sounded a little tighter than the ESLs though.

I liked them both.

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post #98 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

As a participating manufacturer, I'd like to add that our philosophy has always been that to get the most meaningful perspective about various models compare acoustical classes. Typically a 5" minimonitor auditioner is going to compare other 5" 2-ways while a double 8" 3-way tower buyer is going to compare other speakers in its class and so on.

Doing so automatically levels the context: A cheap 5" mini naturally tends to be beaten by an excellent 5" mini, and only then the determinant becomes price. The acoustical size precedes the price equation and whatever market complexities there are.

I have to disagree with this. If I'm in the market for speakers, or anything else, first I need to set a budget. I want to know what is the best speaker for $1000 (or any other price point). I don't care what the size of the woofer is. I may care between towers and bookshelves, or I may not. I do want to know if the ARX A5 (three way, three 5.25" woofers, planar tweeter, down F3 at 45 Hz) sounds better than the Philharmonitor (two way, single 6.5" woofer, ribbon tweeter, down F2 at 42 Hz) at a similar price. I don't care how different they are; I want the best sound for the money.

I know "the best sound for the money" is subjective, but the idea is the same,
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post #99 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

I have to disagree with this. If I'm in the market for speakers, or anything else, first I need to set a budget. I want to know what is the best speaker for $1000 (or any other price point). I don't care what the size of the woofer is. I may care between towers and bookshelves, or I may not. I do want to know if the ARX A5 (three way, three 5.25" woofers, planar tweeter, down F3 at 45 Hz) sounds better than the Philharmonitor (two way, single 6.5" woofer, ribbon tweeter, down F2 at 42 Hz) at a similar price. I don't care how different they are; I want the best sound for the money.

I know "the best sound for the money" is subjective, but the idea is the same,

I think he has a point on a few things. I wouldn't go with the driver size but the speaker size and type would matter. If your buying speakers for just 2ch and no sub then that will matter to what speakers you would want to review as an example. I think before you select based on price you would want to get the category of the speakers that would work and fit based on needs and room. Then from that list grab the ones that work in the price range of the budget. I like the example that you don't look at trucks and sports cars just because they cost the same. If you need a truck your not going to test drive the sports car just because it also fits your budget smile.gif

Your right budget is going to be the most important after the category list is made.

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post #100 of 116 Old 09-13-2013, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

I think he has a point on a few things. I wouldn't go with the driver size but the speaker size and type would matter. If your buying speakers for just 2ch and no sub then that will matter to what speakers you would want to review as an example. I think before you select based on price you would want to get the category of the speakers that would work and fit based on needs and room. Then from that list grab the ones that work in the price range of the budget. I like the example that you don't look at trucks and sports cars just because they cost the same. If you need a truck your not going to test drive the sports car just because it also fits your budget smile.gif

Your right budget is going to be the most important after the category list is made.

I agree with you. Type of speaker does matter to some extent, especially in your example.
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post #101 of 116 Old 09-14-2013, 03:22 AM
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I wouldn't go with the driver size but the speaker size and type would matter.

I suggest comparing driver areas (primarily in the bass) because they describe both the fundamental output versus the distortion of the speaker and the internal air volume of the system they're in within those characteristics. The woofer(s) will determine the foundation that the rest of the system - all its midranges and treble drivers - are just added to.

To use another automotive analogy, setting aside power adders like airchargers an engine's displacement is more informative about its power profile than are fuel or ignition systems. The analogy is imperfect but cylinder number and layout might be to the engine what driver type and arrangement are to the speaker: Important but not in as fundamental a way as displacement.

It's this foundational system that the laws of physics tell us describe what the speaker system will do for us. Will it play to 30Hz, will it play loudly, will it be relatively efficient or inefficient, and what will its approximate distortion be.

To a shopper price is at least as important and to many shoppers initially it'll be most important. It must be factored. But try identifying the best acoustical class before you shop price and you'll find that the field narrows and that your checkbook will start finding the differences between the candidates on your list more different in terms of intangibles than real, fundamental acoustical personalities.
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post #102 of 116 Old 09-14-2013, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

I suggest comparing driver areas (primarily in the bass) because they describe both the fundamental output versus the distortion of the speaker and the internal air volume of the system they're in within those characteristics. The woofer(s) will determine the foundation that the rest of the system - all its midranges and treble drivers - are just added to.

To use another automotive analogy, setting aside power adders like airchargers an engine's displacement is more informative about its power profile than are fuel or ignition systems. The analogy is imperfect but cylinder number and layout might be to the engine what driver type and arrangement are to the speaker: Important but not in as fundamental a way as displacement.

It's this foundational system that the laws of physics tell us describe what the speaker system will do for us. Will it play to 30Hz, will it play loudly, will it be relatively efficient or inefficient, and what will its approximate distortion be.

To a shopper price is at least as important and to many shoppers initially it'll be most important. It must be factored. But try identifying the best acoustical class before you shop price and you'll find that the field narrows and that your checkbook will start finding the differences between the candidates on your list more different in terms of intangibles than real, fundamental acoustical personalities.

agreed biggrin.gif

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post #103 of 116 Old 09-14-2013, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

I suggest comparing driver areas (primarily in the bass) because they describe both the fundamental output versus the distortion of the speaker and the internal air volume of the system they're in within those characteristics. The woofer(s) will determine the foundation that the rest of the system - all its midranges and treble drivers - are just added to.
What are your general thoughts regarding the use of larger, say 10", off the shelf pro drivers in two way speakers? For that matter, what about 'non pro drivers? What sort of advantages and disadvantages do they bring to the table and how difficult is it get the tweeter(s) to mesh in a cohesive manner?]
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post #104 of 116 Old 09-15-2013, 05:56 AM
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What are your general thoughts regarding the use of larger, say 10", off the shelf pro drivers in two way speakers? For that matter, what about 'non pro drivers? What sort of advantages and disadvantages do they bring to the table and how difficult is it get the tweeter(s) to mesh in a cohesive manner?]

Large format systems are fascinating. (I'm starting a 15" two-way and have a dual 8"/dome two-way MTM in prototype.) Assuming the drivers are compatible - which is more involved and troublesome than DIYing two trendy, expensive drivers into a box - the trick is always the crossover engineering.

Get it right and system disappears into music. Miss it and you're left with some degree of hifi sound.

As for advantages, large format systems have enormous, even unbeatable advantages. The more surface area the lower the distortion. The problem is geometry: Can you use large surfaces at low enough frequencies so they don't become plane radiators or go into chaotic breakup or both.
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post #105 of 116 Old 09-15-2013, 08:17 PM
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I don't know if you intended to or I'm just reading your comments incorrectly, Jon, but are you saying that off the shelf larger diameter pro woofers could be suitable? To get the sensitivity, would you necessarily raise the bottom end? Also, are you looking to extend the use of the planar tweeter to other lines?

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post #106 of 116 Old 09-16-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Large format systems are fascinating. (I'm starting a 15" two-way and have a dual 8"/dome two-way MTM in prototype.) Assuming the drivers are compatible - which is more involved and troublesome than DIYing two trendy, expensive drivers into a box - the trick is always the crossover engineering.

Get it right and system disappears into music. Miss it and you're left with some degree of hifi sound.

As for advantages, large format systems have enormous, even unbeatable advantages. The more surface area the lower the distortion. The problem is geometry: Can you use large surfaces at low enough frequencies so they don't become plane radiators or go into chaotic breakup or both.

Any details on the 15" 2-way. I like large format drivers. Currently playing with TD12M's and also will be playing with some TD18H+ drivers.

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post #107 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 11:16 AM
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I don't know if you intended to or I'm just reading your comments incorrectly, Jon, but are you saying that off the shelf larger diameter pro woofers could be suitable? To get the sensitivity, would you necessarily raise the bottom end? Also, are you looking to extend the use of the planar tweeter to other lines?

Aside from approximate categories involving things like thermal limits, pro and consumer are less useful distinctions for sound than other driver characteristics. Put another way, the best "pro" driver designs go back 60 years and by now have spawned countless no-holds-barred derivatives. They come from all over the world and all over the industry, and by now have made their way into the finest music systems; both professional and consumer high end.

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post #108 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 11:19 AM
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Any details on the 15" 2-way.

No details yet because they're typically misleading this far in advance. Much too late, I'm trying to train myself about that...

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post #109 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 12:17 PM
 
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There is no way those Magnapan M12's don't win. Those are the best speakers hands down on that list!
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post #110 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 02:53 PM
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There is no way those Magnapan M12's don't win. Those are the best speakers hands down on that list!

The trouble is, to listen to the speakers you first need to place them in a room. Being dipole and producing a back way makes this more tricky in smaller rooms. If you have the space AND placement options, fine. However many people do not have such a luxury.

Heck, going by the photos in these forums that people post of their rooms, many people are struggling to find decent placement options (acoustically) for even small 2-way monitors and sub systems.!

..
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post #111 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 05:22 PM
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To describe the 40's, read the 12's review and then imagine improved bass response and furniture grade cabinetry that looks like it would be at home on a speaker costing twice as much.

The thing is ML40's lost the open-back dipole midrange design and its effect on the soundstage that ML12's had. Also, for a long time Newegg was selling 12's for $600/pair with free shipping and frequently discounted them to $450-500/pair on sale, so not exactly the same price category as 40's.
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post #112 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 06:36 PM
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There is no way those Magnapan M12's don't win. Those are the best speakers hands down on that list!

Yet the Arx A5 was the preferred speaker wink.gif

There is no BEST speaker just the more preferred speaker. I've listened to Maggies a few years ago and wasn't impressed at all and if they are the best, why would people own any of the other speakers?
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post #113 of 116 Old 09-17-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

No details yet because they're typically misleading this far in advance. Much too late, I'm trying to train myself about that...

I was just looking for driver selection. Curious what you were considering.

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post #114 of 116 Old 09-18-2013, 04:14 PM
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Mike, I'll PM you when we get the project wrung out. Thanks for your interest...

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post #115 of 116 Old 09-21-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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Because they weren't set up right. I've heard them several times and they sounded awesome! I ended up going with ML EM Electromotion ESL's more because of the size and look. None of those box speakers are going to sound as good as the maggies or ML's and I've tried a ton of speakers.
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post #116 of 116 Old 09-21-2013, 08:23 PM
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Because they weren't set up right. I've heard them several times and they sounded awesome! I ended up going with ML EM Electromotion ESL's more because of the size and look. None of those box speakers are going to sound as good as the maggies or ML's and I've tried a ton of speakers.

Listened to the maggies was far from impressed. Its nothing but subjective opinion. Wouldn't trade the Arx A5s for Maggies if they gave them even trade. I will say that some of those ML ESL speakers are fantastic and sound great but they are more than double the price of the speakers in this review. Arx A5 is only $850 shipped and the ESL's are around $2,000 so hardly in competition with each other.
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