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post #91 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

I know what you mena, but i am not the "showing off" type guy, i like it for my self. Actually i don't have many friends who value these things as i do.
But do you think Datasat will perform better?

I do not it will perform any better than an Emotiva amp.
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post #92 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 12:27 PM
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I am 100% unequivocally certain Theta Digital will sound amazing with Revel.

That looks like costume jewelry. Feminine looking.smile.gif
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post #93 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

Opinions my friend...Some designs are immortal...



That's why I said IMO. Would I buy one? Probably/maybe but I would be looking into the parts list and making sure it wasn't made by one of the companies that sells their own line, buy also has 6 different cases with different names on them in the back room. Like ATI makes Mark Levinson and others amps for them, but charges 4 times as much for them wink.gif
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post #94 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I do not it will perform any better than an Emotiva amp.

Sure...

Do you see a Ferrari and a Mini Cooper? It's the same, it's just your vision that is not good...biggrin.gif
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post #95 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

Sure...

Do you see a Ferrari and a Mini Cooper? It's the same, it's just your vision that is not good...biggrin.gif

Yes, they are designed to perform differently. Amps should be designed to do the same thing.
I will keep my Audi R8 you can have the Ferrari.biggrin.gif
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post #96 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, they are designed to perform differently. Amps should be designed to do the same thing.
I will keep my Audi R8 you can have the Ferrari.biggrin.gif

I see you have Emotiva. That brand has several fans, but i am not one of them.

I am not going to discuss about quality and prices because that discussion would be endless, and i have my opinion, and you have your own opinion.

There are no miracles, you cannot build an amplifier to sell low cost with the same material you buy a $10000 amplifier, it's impossible.

Low cost gear is made for some people, and high end gear for other people. Not trying to divide social classes, only saying some people value quality and finish, others don't.

As for the cars i will keep the Ferrari for sure over an R8 every single day of my life wink.gif
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post #97 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

I see you have Emotiva. That brand has several fans, but i am not one of them.

I am not going to discuss about quality and prices because that discussion would be endless, and i have my opinion, and you have your own opinion.

There are no miracles, you cannot build an amplifier to sell low cost with the same material you buy a $10000 amplifier, it's impossible.

Low cost gear is made for some people, and high end gear for other people. Not trying to divide social classes, only saying some people value quality and finish, others don't.

As for the cars i will keep the Ferrari for sure over an R8 every single day of my life wink.gif

Once again you are attracted by name brand. You likely could not afford the maintenance on a Ferrari if it was a gift.
Since you did not know if an amp you named had tone controls there is no need for further discussion.
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post #98 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 03:56 PM
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But, but, but..... a $10,000 amp costs more, so it must be better.
Simple logic.
It's science. You can't debate it.




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post #99 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 04:41 PM
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Its like someone just broke the law on this forum when anybody says one amp could sound different than another eek.gif. No idea why the same people care so much. Its not like theses high end amps are selling drugs to kids or giving credit to old people on ss that should never be given a credit card(credit card companies). biggrin.gif

Its almost like these people are emotiva employees that never miss a chance to turn everyone toward the budget amp. Im really starting to wonder wink.gif

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post #100 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 05:08 PM
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I'll add. I'm a Polk guy but if we're talking amps biggrin.gif I own Emotiva. I would love to try higher end amps. Sure, just like a speaker cross overs, not all are made from the same quality parts. If everything was made from the same stuff, it would sound the same. But this is not the case.

I go for Emo due to my allowing, or disallowing budget. What gets me, is someone telling me my A9's don't sound any different whether I'm powering it with my AVR or my 200w amp or my 300w amp. The sound fact is, my A9's sound different depending on the power I use.

Most will agree that speakers sound different. That alone tells you that speakers have different personalities. In the case of my Polk A9's, they will sound bright under "normal" or non amped conditions. When powered with an amp, the brightness tends to warm up a bit. How do I base this statement? I did an A/B test, AVR to 300w amp, back to back with the same songs. With the AVR, the highs were bright, the cymbals tagged on a lot of "S's" to the end of them. When amped, the "S's" disappeared, the cymbal hits were sharp and precise.

A guy can feed me all the science he wants to, but unless he's spent some time in my room with my gear, he's just giving my written information without any direct firsthand experience to the current situation.

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post #101 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Its almost like these people are emotiva employees that never miss a chance to turn everyone toward the budget amp. Im really starting to wonder wink.gif

I don't own an Emo amp, and I wish they were bench tested (maybe they are, but I haven't seen anything). But I can tell you that easy-impedence-load speakers sound the same to me whether I drive them with my 4-ohms capable HK AVR, A Monster Signature 90 lbs amp $2000 amp, my 30 year-old Nikko Alpha 220 amp ($800 30 years ago), or a Carver m4a... except for the noise floor. Speakers with low impedance dips sound different using an amp, but to be sound the same as soon as you get an amp capable of handling them.

Would I swap out my amp for a $3000 amp even if I could afford it? No.

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post #102 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 05:24 PM
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I agree. Talk amps sound different and it is like sharks smelling blood in the water. If we were on the amp forum it would be much worse. Different designs, different components, yet all equivalent? I am not in that camp.

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post #103 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 05:36 PM
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Opinions my friend...Some designs are immortal...

Kind of like that ageless classic car look? smile.gif
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post #104 of 166 Old 10-05-2013, 11:15 PM
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I don't own an Emo amp, and I wish they were bench tested (maybe they are, but I haven't seen anything). But I can tell you that easy-impedence-load speakers sound the same to me whether I drive them with my 4-ohms capable HK AVR, A Monster Signature 90 lbs amp $2000 amp, my 30 year-old Nikko Alpha 220 amp ($800 30 years ago), or a Carver m4a... except for the noise floor. Speakers with low impedance dips sound different using an amp, but to be sound the same as soon as you get an amp capable of handling them.

Would I swap out my amp for a $3000 amp even if I could afford it? No.

Unless it sounded better wink.gif.

But to your ears they might all sound the same and everyone is different and what you hear is only going to be true to your ears.

If you were color blind all colors would look almost the same. But anyone who is not color blind knows that all colors don't look the same. Could someone who is color blind really argue that they do look the same? biggrin.gif

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post #105 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Once again you are attracted by name brand. You likely could not afford the maintenance on a Ferrari if it was a gift.
Since you did not know if an amp you named had tone controls there is no need for further discussion.
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post #106 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Kind of like that ageless classic car look? smile.gif

Exactly!

Theta design is something you can live your life with without getting bored.
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post #107 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 03:20 AM
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I'm willing to bet if we had all the popular brand of amps lined up and covered up none of us could pick the Theta or the Sunfire or the Emo out wink.gif Personally in my own setup if I had unlimited cash, I'd go with all Mac or Krell amps. Would either one sound better with my Revels than my current Sunfire amp does? You would think so, and they sure do look pretty smile.gif
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post #108 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm willing to bet if we had all the popular brand of amps lined up and covered up none of us could pick the Theta or the Sunfire or the Emo out wink.gif Personally in my own setup if I had unlimited cash, I'd go with all Mac or Krell amps. Would either one sound better with my Revels than my current Sunfire amp does? You would think so, and they sure do look pretty smile.gif

I also like Krell, but Mcintosh "more or less", is not my style. I've heard Mcintosh in many occasions, such as monoblocks, integrated, and they are not the best for movies. For movies you have Krell; Theta; Parasound; Datasat; ADA.

Mcintosh doesn't have the same dynamics, and for music it has a very tipical sound that not everyone likes it. For example, back in the days Krell didn't sounded that good, they improved alot.

By the way what makes you so sure that in a blind test people would't pickup Theta?
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post #109 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RefTheater View Post

I also like Krell, but Mcintosh "more or less", is not my style. I've heard Mcintosh in many occasions, such as monoblocks, integrated, and they are not the best for movies. For movies you have Krell; Theta; Parasound; Datasat; ADA.

Mcintosh doesn't have the same dynamics, and for music it has a very tipical sound that not everyone likes it. For example, back in the days Krell didn't sounded that good, they improved alot.

By the way what makes you so sure that in a blind test people would't pickup Theta?



A good amplifier should do just that, amplify, nothing more nothing less. Ok let's leave the Theta out of it, in a blind test I'll bet no one could pick out the Mark Levinson amp over the ATI, Outlaw or a Crown amp sans the fan wink.gif All of their specs are in an area we can't hear, so picking one out over the other should be impossible. It's like hearing high res when it's 96Khz and but ears only hear to 20Khz. I'm REALLYopening up axman of worms lol.
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post #110 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

A good amplifier should do just that, amplify, nothing more nothing less. Ok let's leave the Theta out of it, in a blind te still bet no one could pick out the Mark Levinson amp over the ATI, Outlaw or a Crown amp sans the fan wink.gif All of their specs are in areasat we can't hea,so picking one out over the other should be impossible. It's like hearing high res when it's 96Khz and but ears only hear to 20Khz. I'm REALLYopening up axman of worms lol.

And i forgot about Mark Levinson, that's a good brand also. Very good in fact.
ATI never heard, but i know they manufacture for Theta and Mark Levinson. But for a dedicated spae i don't like the look of ATI, they don't care about looks. If my gear was in a rack it would't matter, but showing i don't like it.
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post #111 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 04:13 AM
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How I got sucked into the great amp debate again I'll never know, there are countless debates on this in every forum. People usually buy what their budget allows. Sorry about the typos in my last post, I didn't have my first coffee yet biggrin.gif but I'll leave this debate for others, since I probably won't be changing my Sunfire amp anytime soon the conversation is pointless for me wink.gif
I just changed subwoofer brands and there's no denying I can hear a huge difference in that area wink.gif
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post #112 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

How I got sucked into the great amp debate again I'll never know, there are countless debates on this in every forum. People usually buy what their budget allows. Sorry about the typos in my last post, I didn't have my first coffee yet biggrin.gif but I'll leave this debate for others, since I probably won't be changing my Sunfire amp anytime soon the conversation is pointless for me wink.gif
I just changed subwoofer brands and there's no denying I can hear a huge difference in that area wink.gif

smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
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post #113 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:12 AM
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I agree. Talk amps sound different and it is like sharks smelling blood in the water. If we were on the amp forum it would be much worse. Different designs, different components, yet all equivalent? I am not in that camp.

You're drinking the cool aid. ;-)

It's based on the myth that people with no actual credentials in amp design can look at a circuit card, see lots of pretty jelly beans, and know how it sounds.

There are obvious examples of high end components being designed to look impressive, even when that may involve adding unecessary parts. This has a historical precident. In the 1930s the market decided that more tubes meant better radios, so all of a sudden people were building radios with tubes that had only their filaments hooked up. Here's a BD player appears to me to be a modern example of this mania:



and a power amp example:



Hmm that looks familiar. I think I once either owned one or a close relative!
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post #114 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Unless it sounded better wink.gif.

But to your ears they might all sound the same and everyone is different and what you hear is only going to be true to your ears.

If you were color blind all colors would look almost the same. But anyone who is not color blind knows that all colors don't look the same. Could someone who is color blind really argue that they do look the same? biggrin.gif

So you're saying I have a tin ear. Thanks.

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post #115 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:30 AM
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Its like someone just broke the law on this forum when anybody says one amp could sound different than another eek.gif. No idea why the same people care so much. Its not like theses high end amps are selling drugs to kids or giving credit to old people on ss that should never be given a credit card(credit card companies). biggrin.gif

Its almost like these people are emotiva employees that never miss a chance to turn everyone toward the budget amp. Im really starting to wonder wink.gif

1) I think all amps sound the sound given optimum and level-matched condition.
2) I would never buy Emotiva because I hate their aesthetic and name brand.
3) If I were a billionaire, I would own $100K amps even if I think they sound like Emotiva or $300 Harman Crown XLS amps.
4) It's perfectly okay for people to think all amps sound differently.
5) It's perfectly okay for people to think all amps sound the same.

Guys are just voicing their difference in opinions. They couldn't care LESS what amps anyone else buys.
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post #116 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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1) I think all amps sound the sound given optimum and level-matched condition.
2) I would never buy Emotiva because I hate their aesthetic and name brand.
3) If I were a billionaire, I would own $100K amps even if I think they sound like Emotiva or $300 Harman Crown XLS amps.
4) It's perfectly okay for people to think all amps sound differently.
5) It's perfectly okay for people to think all amps sound the same.

Guys are just voicing their difference in opinions. They couldn't care LESS what amps anyone else buys.

+ 1
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post #117 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I don't own an Emo amp, and I wish they were bench tested (maybe they are, but I haven't seen anything). But I can tell you that easy-impedence-load speakers sound the same to me whether I drive them with my 4-ohms capable HK AVR, A Monster Signature 90 lbs amp $2000 amp, my 30 year-old Nikko Alpha 220 amp ($800 30 years ago), or a Carver m4a... except for the noise floor. Speakers with low impedance dips sound different using an amp, but to be sound the same as soon as you get an amp capable of handling them.

Would I swap out my amp for a $3000 amp even if I could afford it? No.

Ditto.
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Unless it sounded better wink.gif.

I see strong evidence of someone who has never done a proper level-matched, time-synched, quick switched at listener discretion, bias-controlled listening test.

Simply removing obvious cures the the identity of the amps turns everybody into what many would call tin ears.

Here's an anecdote about this being done to a very well known audiophile/manufacturer:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

This is not an isolated incident. The trick is to find someone with the reputation of the owner/founder of Linn high end audio equipment to play the game.
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But to your ears they might all sound the same and everyone is different and what you hear is only going to be true to your ears.

Everyone isn't that different. Can anybody run a 2 minute mile? We all share similar limiations in many ways and hearing is just one of them. For example it turns out that the best numbers for the threshold of hearing are about the same as the noise that the air makes naturally because its molecules are constantly hitting each other. Think about it. If someone had more sensitive ears, all they would hear is a loud rushing sound.
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If you were color blind all colors would look almost the same. But anyone who is not color blind knows that all colors don't look the same. Could someone who is color blind really argue that they do look the same? biggrin.gif

We tested enough different people that we know that people who can't hear the unhearable aren't weird. People who claim the impossible are usually poorly informed.
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post #118 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Its like someone just broke the law on this forum when anybody says one amp could sound different than another eek.gif. No idea why the same people care so much. Its not like theses high end amps are selling drugs to kids or giving credit to old people on ss that should never be given a credit card(credit card companies). biggrin.gif

Its almost like these people are emotiva employees that never miss a chance to turn everyone toward the budget amp. Im really starting to wonder wink.gif

1) I think all amps sound the sound given optimum and level-matched condition.

False claim. Its only the good amps that sound the same. Bad amps such as High end SETs often sound different because they are by modern standards, broken as built.
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post #119 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:52 AM
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fwiw, I really don't care what you spend your money on but I would pay anything to see a double blind test with everyone here bringing their amps and failing miserably trying to pick their own amp

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #120 of 166 Old 10-06-2013, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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fwiw, I really don't care what you spend your money on but I would pay anything to see a double blind test with everyone here bringing their amps and failing miserably trying to pick their own amp

Let me ask you a quick question....

Do you think a Lamborghini owner cares if there is a guy with a skyline that goes from o-60 faster and even has more top speed and all that crap? I don't think he will care at all, because "visuals" is one of our life pleasures and looking at that machine in the Garage or standing at your door way shinning, that is Hot.

Same thing here...
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