Bookshelf versus tower when using a good sub - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 211 Old 10-09-2013, 11:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Realize that all of this is theoretical. It should usually play out in reality, but the specific implementation is more important than theoretic advantages. Also: I make several assumptions about the performance of the speakers involved (I attempt to enumerate those assumptions)

If I assume that the top speaker has the same driver as the midrange in the 3-way design:
- The top speaker may have trouble getting to 80Hz with authority. That's a small driver and I suspect you'll be clipping at high volumes at 80Hz meaning.
- The 3-way has an advantage as the woofers will allow it to hit 80Hz pretty easily and with high SPL and
- The 2-way 3-driver tower trades midrange clarity for LF output. If the bookshelf does have problems with 80hz, that would be an improvement.

If I assume that the top speaker has the same driver as the bass driver in the 3-way design:
- The 3-way design offers an advantage in midrange and HF clarity as the crossover from the tweeter can be moved up and the crossover to the bass can be moved down.
- The 2-way tower likely offers nothing that you would want when crossing over to a sub. Again, if the tweeter can keep up, it would increase the max SPL of the bass drivers +6db, and that might be an advantage, but most of the design is about pushing the -3db point lower, and you are (assumed) already crossing 80 with ease with the bookshelf.
Sean Spamilton likes this.
JerryLove is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 01:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

I get what he's trying to ask... will this:

or this

When using a a sub crossed over at 80hz ? Or would you benefit from having ( in the example of the 3 way speaker ) a dedicated mid range driver?


Having owned and used as fronts the B5 and then the T5 both with subs crossed at 60 or 80hz, the best combo was Imagine B with subs. (relevant as the Imagine B's cost the same as the T5's)

These days I use 2-way towers with subs. I find getting 80hz off the bottom of a 2-way greatly improves midrange clarity.
kiwi2 is offline  
post #183 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 01:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

It was never about 2 way vs 3 way or 4 way. My question in the OP was 2 main drivers in a larger cabinet vs a single driver in a bookshelf. I was wanting to know if there would be any advantage ABOVE the sub crossover. So the conclusion is yes but perhaps not as much as I was expecting, I guess.

As Jerry said, it is a different question but the same answer. Mid-bass, like low bass, is all about moving a large amount of air, especially at the low frequencies where it blends with the sub. It doesn't matter if you want a bookshelf or a tower, just choose one that goes low enough below the selected crossover frequency to blend well with the sub.

All other things being equal, a 2-way speaker with two 6" woofers is going to have more mid-bass than a similar 2-way speaker with one 6" woofer. And that same 2-way speaker with one 6" woofer has more mid-bass than a speaker with a 4" driver (which has nearly no mid-bass). Of course, more expensive drivers and better speaker design can also greatly influence this as well.

An example will help - I like Paradigm speakers so I will use them:

Bookshelf:
Paradigm Atom / 2-way / 5.5" / 86Hz / $200
Paradigm Mini / 2-way / 6.5" / 75Hz / $300
Paradigm Studio 20 / 2-way / 7" / 54Hz / $750 < better drivers / design

Tower:
Paradigm Studio 60 / 2.5-way / (2) 5.5" / 45Hz / $1250 < more woofers

The advantage of additional mid-bass is that speakers will have a flatter frequency response to the sub crossover frequency and you won't be driving them to their lowest limits where they may not behave perfectly or handle high volume levels without damage. Remember that the frequency range is usually specified at -3dB.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is online now  
post #184 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 01:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

These days I use 2-way towers with subs. I find getting 80hz off the bottom of a 2-way greatly improves midrange clarity.

+1 - I agree - relieving a speaker of its most difficult load (the lowest frequencies it can reproduce) allows the bass driver to work better in the rest of its frequency range. Plus, since that is where most of the power is used, it also gives the amps more headroom.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is online now  
post #185 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 07:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Having owned and used as fronts the B5 and then the T5 both with subs crossed at 60 or 80hz, the best combo was Imagine B with subs. (relevant as the Imagine B's cost the same as the T5's)

These days I use 2-way towers with subs. I find getting 80hz off the bottom of a 2-way greatly improves midrange clarity.

Interesting - though I have a 9 speaker surround set up, and could never afford to replace all the image speakers with imagine's. Though I imagine ( nyuk nyuk ) that if I replaced the LCR they would still blend decently enough. I was more curious though about the T6 - as this has the dedicated midrange driver above the tweeter, over and above both the T5 and the Imagine B.

Sean Spamilton is offline  
post #186 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
losservatore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,111
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked: 295
I'm thinking about buying another PSA sx30 to place it on a different location maybe this can solve the problem with localization at 100hz or maybe not ,all I know is that 60hz and 80hz is working.

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/the-marriage-between-the-subwoofer-and-tower-speakers

Panasonic 65VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 /PSA XS30 /Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Revel Surrounds/Sonos Connect/ Roku 3 / Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / HTPC / Darbee 5000 /Sonos system for rooms/Master bedroom Sonos sound bar/Sonos sub and Sonos play 1 surrounds.
losservatore is online now  
post #187 of 211 Old 10-10-2013, 11:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
I had thought you were stuck with one location for the sub...since you can consider two, it would be wise to experiment with different locations unless the added expense is no issue for you. Not to talk anyone out of the benefits of multiple subs, though...I am currently running 4!
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #188 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 01:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Ryder125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Canada, BC
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
it shouldn't matter how many drivers or 2 way 3 way 4 way or book shelve/monitor vs a tower it either reproduces the sound accurately or not.
Ryder125 is offline  
post #189 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 05:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryder125 View Post

it shouldn't matter how many drivers or 2 way 3 way 4 way or book shelve/monitor vs a tower it either reproduces the sound accurately or not.
Which goes back to the beginning of post #181:

"Realize that all of this is theoretical. It should usually play out in reality, but the specific implementation is more important than theoretic advantages."

There aren't, for example, any (traditional driver) 1-way speakers that do full range well with significant volume.
JerryLove is offline  
post #190 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 05:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Transmaniacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,256
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Which goes back to the beginning of post #181:

"Realize that all of this is theoretical. It should usually play out in reality, but the specific implementation is more important than theoretic advantages."

There aren't, for example, any (traditional driver) 1-way speakers that do full range well with significant volume.

There are a lot of great DIY designs that do one-way very well.

Living Room
Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon DBP-1611 | Roku 3
Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | BIC F-12

Computer
Topping TP23 | NHT SuperZero 2.0 | Velodyne DEQ-8R
Transmaniacon is offline  
post #191 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 05:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

There are a lot of great DIY designs that do one-way very well.
One way designs are always a compromise. A single driver can't have enough displacement to run well to 80-100hz to meet a sub while still being small enough to have good dispersion in the highs. The massive fail of Bose satellites brings that truth home. Single driver speakers are popular with a certain segment of the oddiophool crowd, those who think that the elimination of a crossover is worth the other shortcomings. What they don't consider is that whatever they're listening to was mixed in a studio using subs plus two and three-way mains. If single driver was superior, or even equal to two or three ways, that's what studios would be using. Even the best one-way iterations, rear-loaded horns of the Fostex/Lowther variety, don't have the high frequency dispersion of two-ways, and they also suffer from a midbass dip where the front and rear waves meet out 180 degrees out of phase. Transmission lines come as close as is possible to a good result with a one-way, but still suffer from the compromise between displacement and dispersion.
JerryLove likes this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #192 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 06:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Transmaniacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,256
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

One way designs are always a compromise. A single driver can't have enough displacement to run well to 80-100hz to meet a sub while still being small enough to have good dispersion in the highs. The massive fail of Bose satellites brings that truth home. Single driver speakers are popular with a certain segment of the oddiophool crowd, those who think that the elimination of a crossover is worth the other shortcomings. What they don't consider is that whatever they're listening to was mixed in a studio using subs plus two and three-way mains. If single driver was superior, or even equal to two or three ways, that's what studios would be using. Even the best one-way iterations, rear-loaded horns of the Fostex/Lowther variety, don't have the high frequency dispersion of two-ways, and they also suffer from a midbass dip where the front and rear waves meet out 180 degrees out of phase. Transmission lines come as close as is possible to a good result with a one-way, but still suffer from the compromise between displacement and dispersion.

Sure there is a compromise, but I have read a lot of good things about designs like the Frugel Horn and such. I guess my point was that one-way designs are possible and probably sound pretty good, but they do seem to have their shortfalls. I'd be curious to hear them, but that midbass dip does sound problematic.

Living Room
Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon DBP-1611 | Roku 3
Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | BIC F-12

Computer
Topping TP23 | NHT SuperZero 2.0 | Velodyne DEQ-8R
Transmaniacon is offline  
post #193 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 06:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

Sure there is a compromise, but I have read a lot of good things about designs like the Frugel Horn .
That's out of the Fostex/Lowther mold, and as such have a midbass dip and beamy highs. If you're bound and determined to go single driver because you think there's an inherent advantage to them that's as good an option as any. IMO their only real advantage is that when loaded with high sensitivity Fostex or Lowther drivers they allow use of low power SET amplification, which is another can of worms.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #194 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 06:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Transmaniacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,256
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's out of the Fostex/Lowther mold, and as such have a midbass dip and beamy highs. If you're bound and determined to go single driver because you think there's an inherent advantage to them that's as good an option as any. IMO their only real advantage is that when loaded with high sensitivity Fostex or Lowther drivers they allow use of low power SET amplification, which is another can of worms.

I don't believe they have some inherent advantage, but would try them to see how they sound given their simplistic design. I am an engineer so I like seeing how things work biggrin.gif

Living Room
Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon DBP-1611 | Roku 3
Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | BIC F-12

Computer
Topping TP23 | NHT SuperZero 2.0 | Velodyne DEQ-8R
Transmaniacon is offline  
post #195 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 01:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryder125 View Post

it shouldn't matter how many drivers or 2 way 3 way 4 way or book shelve/monitor vs a tower it either reproduces the sound accurately or not.

In general that statement is of course true. The problem is the word "accurately" - speakers are NEVER 100% accurate and every single speaker design, regardless of cost, has trade offs that improve one characteristic while sacrificing another. This is quite obvious when listening to different speakers - especially when doing instantaneous switches between them.

The other problem is that human hearing is not accurate and that we tend to prefer a particular type of speaker response. This is obviously highly dependent on the listener and his preferences, but you would think that a listener would always prefer speakers with flater response curves - not always so.

I did some listening recently and it always surprises me what speakers I prefer. I had the salesman set up two that I wanted to compare but I didn't know which ones were which on the remote switch. One set of speakers obviously had more low bass output than the others, but they seemed to be muddy or flat in the highs. With a CD passage on repeat I couldn't hear some of the same details that were very obvious on the other speakers. I enjoyed the extra bass, but I missed the details that the other speakers could produce. Trade offs in design? Preconceived preference to a particular type of speaker? Or just a limitation of my sighted A/B switching test?

The speakers with more bass were 3-way floor standing towers with multiple woofers and the others were 2-way speakers with only one of the same size woofer on stands. The big floor standing speakers have an amazingly flat response curve (I found it in the web site below) and the two-ways had a few frequency response bumps and dips (and obviously a roll off at lower frequencies). The towers reproduce sound much more accurately when measured, but I preferred the smaller two-way speakers.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is online now  
post #196 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

The other problem is that human hearing is not accurate and that we tend to prefer a particular type of speaker response. This is obviously highly dependent on the listener and his preferences, but you would think that a listener would always prefer speakers with flater response curves - not always so.
Only if you don't like reality.

If you don't like an actual guitar played in your family room (100% accurate), then you may prefer a less accurate speaker over a more accurate one.

But, of course, it won't sound "real" to you either. Whatever's wrong with your hearing affects how you hear reality, not just reality's reproduction.
Quote:
The big floor standing speakers have an amazingly flat response curve (I found it in the web site below) and the two-ways had a few frequency response bumps and dips (and obviously a roll off at lower frequencies). The towers reproduce sound much more accurately when measured, but I preferred the smaller two-way speakers.
1) There are a *lot* of measurements missing from that site. Which speakers are we discussing BTW?

2) You don't have measurements from within the room you were listening in. Were the speakers you preferred better placed? Did they start to roll off where room modes engaged causing the other pair to over-emphasize?

To put it another way: Which do you think would sound better to you? An orchestra, or the bookshelves you liked replaying a recording of that orchestra? Unless you answered "replaying", the problem is not "too accurate".
JerryLove is offline  
post #197 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 04:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
While that is true for non amplified acoustic music to some degree, you still have to account for venue, seating position within the venue, etc. But what if the reference never existing in an acoustical space? Electronic music, most rock music, etc never had an non amplified "standard". Go see a rock band...the PA is EQed to really boost the midbass and treble in most cases, or whatever the man running the PA prefers. I think that is part of the problem coming up with a reference for people who like amplified music. Some producers get in the studio and go crazy with the EQ, while others will go with a more natural sound. So while I get your point, unless the listener listens to only a specific type of music there is more than likely no real standard to hold the speakers to. I guess everyone should go to a symphony or an intimate jazz club, then try to remember exactly how that sounded and shop for speakers that reproduce that...but just like many people have the "I hate what audysey did to my sound" or "where is my bass after room correction" syndrome, a lot of people will find they do not like a truly accurate recreation of a recording.
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #198 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 06:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

While that is true for non amplified acoustic music to some degree, you still have to account for venue, seating position within the venue, etc. But what if the reference never existing in an acoustical space? Electronic music, most rock music, etc never had an non amplified "standard".
Then you'll find you like the way music A was EQ'd and not music B.

So you go to your low-fedility speaker that randomly offset B in just the way you loved and when you play A it will sound awful.

A better solution would be to get speakers that have low THD at the volumes you listen to, have a flat response with a good roll-off off-axis, are reasonably non-resonant, have even dispersion, and avoid problems like beaming; then use an EQ or DSP to adjust to room and taste.

Because you cannot *undo* a great number of flaws, but you could create them if you wished.
Quote:
but just like many people have the "I hate what audysey did to my sound" or "where is my bass after room correction" syndrome, a lot of people will find they do not like a truly accurate recreation of a recording.
Certain portions of Audessy do, in fact, ruin sound.

I find there are few accurate recordings to start with.

You can always EQ more bass.

What happens (with your non-flat, bass heavy speaker) when you put in a CD where the sound engineer agreed that "realistic" had too little bass and added a bunch. Now it's over-bassed and you are gonna need to EQ to even hope to fix it... and since you are gonna EQ, why not start with a good reproduction... a reproduceable standard, and go from there. Much easier to engineer than to randomly guess which errors in reproduction you personally will want.(That guessing is exactly what Bose does when introducing the "bose curve" EQ)
JerryLove is offline  
post #199 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 07:13 PM
Senior Member
 
Audiophile2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
I wasn't disagreeing with you (I personally want my speakers to be as accurate as possible)...my point was not everyone knows or even cares what good sound is because they lack a frame of reference for it. Some people want all the boom and sizzle they can get, and can care less whether or not that is anywhere close to what was originally recorded. I was simply explaining why I thought that was the case. I personally know more than a few people who did the old "v" shape EQ or twisted both the bass and treble tone controls all the way up (back in the day when those options were on equipment) no matter what the source material. If they could have added 10db more on the low end and high end they would have gladly done it. At some point I gave up trying to convince those people what they were missing. To them I was the one who didn't get it. To each their own. Of course if someone asks my advice on how to get the best sound I'll gladly try to advise them to at least start with a "flat" response, but many people will never be able to adjust to that after a lifetime of "bad" sound.
JerryLove likes this.
Audiophile2k is offline  
post #200 of 211 Old 11-21-2013, 07:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

The speakers with more bass were 3-way floor standing towers with multiple woofers and the others were 2-way speakers with only one of the same size woofer on stands. The big floor standing speakers have an amazingly flat response curve (I found it in the web site below) and the two-ways had a few frequency response bumps and dips (and obviously a roll off at lower frequencies). The towers reproduce sound much more accurately when measured, but I preferred the smaller two-way speakers.
Comparing a large tower with a smaller bookshelf isn't entirely fair, since you probably would not use bookshelves without a sub. You'd want to compare floorstanders to bookshelves with subs, assuming you want full range response. .

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #201 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 05:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

The towers reproduce sound much more accurately when measured, but I preferred the smaller two-way speakers.
Common complaint IMO.

Expecting bass from "most" towers to be as accurate, tight, punchy as great dedicated subs is expecting too much.

I bet if you listen in 2.1 mode (using subs), set the XO to 80Hz, the towers would sound better.

Bottom line, whether you buy towers or satellites, use multiple subs. They will both sound equally great IMO. No better, no worse IMO.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #202 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 07:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Common complaint IMO.

Expecting bass from "most" towers to be as accurate, tight, punchy as great dedicated subs is expecting too much.

I bet if you listen in 2.1 mode (using subs), set the XO to 80Hz, the towers would sound better.

Bottom line, whether you buy towers or satellites, use multiple subs. They will both sound equally great IMO. No better, no worse IMO.

No doubt a great sub is required for bringing out the best of lower frequencies. However the type bass that you described is above the 80hz cut off and best performed by the L/R mains.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #203 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 07:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

No doubt a great sub is required for bringing out the best of lower frequencies. However the type bass that you described is above the 80hz cut off and best performed by the L/R mains.

That depends on how you define "PUNCHY".

Wall-shaking bone-crunching kick-drum bass is "punchy" to me.

Not even the Salon2s alone give me that effect. The quality is there. But the intensity is not quite there for MY TASTE, which comes back to how you define "punchy".
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #204 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 08:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

That depends on how you define "PUNCHY".

Wall-shaking bone-crunching kick-drum bass is "punchy" to me.

Not even the Salon2s alone give me that effect. The quality is there. But the intensity is not quite there for MY TASTE, which comes back to how you define "punchy".

More justification for listening and deciding rather than reading a forum.smile.gif

I like wall shaking also if it is on the media (sub required). A kick drum has a lot to offer above 80hz also (good mains required). I like the punch above 80hz also.
IMO wall shaking is not in most music which supports the claim for good mains.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #205 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 09:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Common complaint IMO.

Expecting bass from "most" towers to be as accurate, tight, punchy as great dedicated subs is expecting too much.

I bet if you listen in 2.1 mode (using subs), set the XO to 80Hz, the towers would sound better.

Bottom line, whether you buy towers or satellites, use multiple subs. They will both sound equally great IMO. No better, no worse IMO.

I don't expect my mains to reproduce any low bass - that is what my subs are for. I have the crossover set at 70Hz (for all sources) so it would really be a waste to have huge floor standing speakers with great bass when I'm just going to block all the low bass sent to them anyway. That is probably one reason that I've always had "bookshelf" speakers - I like the imaging, detail and sound of the highs better in the 2-way bookshelf (-2dB at 52Hz) better than the big tower (-2dB at 39Hz) and I don't need the tower's low bass capability.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is online now  
post #206 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 10:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Agree on all points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Certain portions of Audessy do, in fact, ruin sound.

I have listened to full range Audyssey and like others don't like it, but I REALLY like it for bass equalization. I wouldn't be surprised if future versions allow band limited EQ. My external Audyssey solution is only connected to the subs, so that is all that it has control over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I find there are few accurate recordings to start with.

And the better your system sounds, the easier it is to tell which recordings are really good. For example, when your system is very quiet, it is very easy to hear noise in the recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

You can always EQ more bass.

True, except that trying to EQ more bass at a null is a losing battle, but thankfully multiple subs usually solves this. In general, it is better to position subs to get the fewest possible dips and then cut bass frequencies at peaks for flattest possible response.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2, Paradigm Signature S4 v.2, (2) SVS SB12-NSD subs, AQ & Cardas XLR
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is online now  
post #207 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 10:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

True, except that trying to EQ more bass at a null is a losing battle, but thankfully multiple subs usually solves this. In general, it is better to position subs to get the fewest possible dips and then cut bass frequencies at peaks for flattest possible response.
Agreed. Working in sub frequencies is a science all its own due to room interactions.
JerryLove is offline  
post #208 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post

I don't expect my mains to reproduce any low bass - that is what my subs are for. I have the crossover set at 70Hz (for all sources) so it would really be a waste to have huge floor standing speakers with great bass when I'm just going to block all the low bass sent to them anyway. That is probably one reason that I've always had "bookshelf" speakers - I like the imaging, detail and sound of the highs better in the 2-way bookshelf (-2dB at 52Hz) better than the big tower (-2dB at 39Hz) and I don't need the tower's low bass capability.

I agree that you don't need towers if you have satellites + subwoofers.

But I don't agree that satellites do anything better than towers (image, detail, sound) and vice versa.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #209 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1311
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

But I don't agree that satellites do anything better than towers (image, detail, sound) and vice versa.
If said towers and bookshelves cost the same then the bookshelves should work better in the midbass and higher than the tower, as the book shelf components should be higher quality. There's no guarantee of that, of course.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #210 of 211 Old 11-22-2013, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If said towers and bookshelves cost the same then the bookshelves should work better in the midbass and higher than the tower, as the book shelf components should be higher quality. There's no guarantee of that, of course.

I can agree with that.

I was thinking about the same line of speakers.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Ascend Acoustics Cmt 340 Se Center

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off