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Old 11-05-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

+1

Building a good single driver loudspeaker with anything like full range response is pretty much mission impossible.

Getting extended frequency response is doable, but it is usually obtained by means of intentional cone breakup which is hard to keep smooth. The unsolvable problem is maintaining smooth response and broad dispersion at high frequencies.

There have been a number of attempts at high quality single driver wide range speakers , but I haven't heard any that seemed credible to me.

Back in the day one of the allegedly high class (ot ast least high priced) attempts at a full range single driver speaker was the Jordan Watts. It had its fans but it sounded pretty broken to me.


Well concentric drivers like those large Tannoy's then. I just gave single driver as an a extreme example.

Large 3-way towers with lots of drivers all over the place is not what a lot a music lovers end up being most contented with in the long run.
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. For instance, plug the specs for these into your favorite box modeling software, let the program calculate the optimal box size and tuning, note that that results are totally different, even though they're both 6.5 inch drivers of similar quality and price:
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-305s.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2700-prv-audio-6mb200-specifications-4766.pdf

You will find just as much variation in specs, and therefore results, for any and every driver size, from 1 inch to 21 inch.
Yep (though it varies based on sealed vs ported (and port config) vs TL).

Which brings us back to the use of multiple drivers. When I have a bass driver in a Paradigm Studio 40v3, and then I have 4 base drivers in a Studio 100v3, I could be looking at 4 drivers identical to the 40, with 4 internal spaces identical to the single internal space on the 40 (not sure if combining them would just be 4x the space, but if they are independent it would be) giving me +6db sensitivity in the bass drivers and 4x power handling.

Meaning I could use the same drivers in both designs if the tweeter can keep up (and that assumes I'm using the extra space in the tower to begin with... not a given); which is what it kinda looks like they did.

And that's not counting the option that a driver is added. I look at the midrange in the Primus 363, and I see it's got its own space in the enclosure which is quite small. Easily small enough to fit in the bookshelf with the same-sized driver (143?).
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The unsolvable problem is maintaining smooth response and broad dispersion at high frequencies.
.
That's less of an issue than realizing both adequate low frequency output and uniform dispersion. Power density doubles with each octave lowering of response, while dispersion halves with each doubling of cone diameter, so it's simply not possible to realize both adequate displacement for lows along with adequate dispersion in the highs from a single cone driver, or even two for that matter. Three is the minimum, though they need not be in the same cabinet, they can be configured as a sub plus a two-way. I've seen a single driver speaker that did work very well over the full audio bandwidth, a twenty foot high electrostatic. Most users would have more than a bit of WAF issues with that.

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Old 11-06-2013, 01:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

+1

Building a good single driver loudspeaker with anything like full range response is pretty much mission impossible.

Getting extended frequency response is doable, but it is usually obtained by means of intentional cone breakup which is hard to keep smooth. The unsolvable problem is maintaining smooth response and broad dispersion at high frequencies.

There have been a number of attempts at high quality single driver wide range speakers , but I haven't heard any that seemed credible to me.

Back in the day one of the allegedly high class (ot ast least high priced) attempts at a full range single driver speaker was the Jordan Watts. It had its fans but it sounded pretty broken to me.


Well concentric drivers like those large Tannoy's then. I just gave single driver as an a extreme example.

No way are coaxial 2-way speakers like those from Tannoy, KEF, B&C, etc. single driver loudspeakers. They are composed of two speaker drivers coexisting in the same frame.

This picture should make that clear:


Quote:
Large 3-way towers with lots of drivers all over the place is not what a lot a music lovers end up being most contented with in the long run.

That's another extreme (and bad)case of what can be a good idea.

Here are some modern high performance 3-ways:



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Old 11-06-2013, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No way are coaxial 2-way speakers like those from Tannoy, KEF, B&C, etc. single driver loudspeakers. They are composed of two speaker drivers coexisting in the same frame.
+1. The entire impetus for single driver speakers is not having a crossover, which single driver adherents think creates issues. Coax drivers use crossovers.
What the single driver crowd think they get with no crossover is more faithful reproduction, but they ignore the fact that the media they're listening to was mixed in a studio using multi-driver speakers, so it's a flawed theory.

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Old 11-06-2013, 10:03 AM
 
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Yeah, the only single-driver "speaker" that is any good is the subwoofer in its intended very limited range. biggrin.gif
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Old 11-06-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No way are coaxial 2-way speakers like those from Tannoy, KEF, B&C, etc. single driver loudspeakers. They are composed of two speaker drivers coexisting in the same frame.

I know.

Quote:
Here are some modern high performance 3-ways:





And these are typical speakers for people new to hi-fi or are popular in home theatre systems.

However I have noticed audiophiles that have been into this game for many years seldom end up using 3-way towers like those.

You are more likely to see them with concentric driver speakers or 2-way speakers (either bookshelf or tower 2-ways and sometimes with subs) or a panel or line arrays or MTM's or open baffle or large horns.

i.e.. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/attachments/f8-general-forum/2178d1349376314-show-us-your-equipment-kit-img-6aa.jpg
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

However I have noticed audiophiles that have been into this game for many years seldom end up using 3-way towers like those.
I, for one, use those exact Primus speakers as surrounds (my fronts in that room are 2-way TL towers).
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:40 PM
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I, for one, use those exact Primus speakers as surrounds

"or are popular in home theatre systems"
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

"or are popular in home theatre systems"
My B&W N801's: not used in my home theater. Ditto my B&W 801Matrix S2's (now gone), Ditto my Philharmonic 2's. Ditto my Infinity RSIIIb's. All 3-way towers. All with some level of popularity focused on audiophiles.

My WmAx custom speakers (built by an audioholic) are 4-way active towers based on Infinity Primus 360s. The list goes on.

I have no statistical data: but I could list popular, high-end, 3-way towers until the cows come home.
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Oledurt View Post

I am thinking of pulling the trigger on some polk audio RTia series speakers for my home theater. I was thinking the Polk RTi A7's for my main speakers.

http://www.polkaudio.com/products/rtia7

I can get the polks for a good price and I have read that people seem to like them a lot. I was telling a friend about this today and he informed me that it is always better to get bookshelf speakers in a home theater and said that floorstanders are for stereo mostly.

I don't understand this. Wouldn't a floorstanding speaker have more bass and isn't that better for movies explosions ect???

Should I reconsider my decision on the polks?? Please help biggrin.gif

Just FYI I have a Rythmik F15HP sealed servo subwoofer for my bass.

Really it depends on the room and also what bookshelfs you are comparing to what floorstanders. In a small room for example many larger speakers will be overkill and can in fact be a determent to the sound quality, likewise in a larger room floorstanders become notably better ceteris paribus.

As for floorstanders being for stereo only, that is simply incorrect.
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

My B&W N801's: not used in my home theater. Ditto my B&W 801Matrix S2's (now gone), Ditto my Philharmonic 2's. Ditto my Infinity RSIIIb's. ...

My WmAx custom speakers (built by an audioholic) are 4-way active towers based on Infinity Primus 360s. The list goes on.

Why do you have so many. ? Not truly happy and contented with any one in particular? Already thinking about your next speaker purchase?
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:37 AM
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There are no universal answers. There is no right and wrong. It is possible to integrate speakers and rooms in a countless number of ways. I would say there isn't even a majority answer. You can find as many setups in home audio as there are available options. I myself use an unrecommended setup to excellent effect.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Why do you have so many. ? Not truly happy and contented with any one in particular? Already thinking about your next speaker purchase?

Audiophilia. It is an expensive affliction.
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

There are no universal answers. There is no right and wrong. It is possible to integrate speakers and rooms in a countless number of ways. I would say there isn't even a majority answer. You can find as many setups in home audio as there are available options. I myself use an unrecommended setup to excellent effect.

I disagree, paying the retail price for Bose is wrong. tongue.gif But yes it is all variable, the 685's in a small room could very well outperform the 683's for example. One must plan very carefully and buy diligently.
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Old 11-07-2013, 06:15 AM
 
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The only thing that matters is the END result.

If the speaker measures great and sound great, it does not matter if it is a 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, concentric, waveguide, etc.

It depends on how the speakers are actually set up & integrated.

A 2-way w/ 4 subs using Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ may sound a lot better than a 4-way w/ no subs in direct mode/analog mode.

A 4-way w/ 4 subs using Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ may sound a lot better than a 2-way w/ 4 subs in direct mode/analog mode (no Sub EQ).

Thus, either speaker may end up sounding better if it has the better setup & integration or vice versa.

There are just too many variable other than 2-way vs. 4-way, etc.
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Why do you have so many. ? Not truly happy and contented with any one in particular? Already thinking about your next speaker purchase?
Something of a collector. Also a history of research and experimentation to find that which sounds best.

My next speaker purchase will be Salk towers (M7, Veractiy ST, or HT2-TL). I've found nothing that sounds better.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:36 PM
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I was telling a friend about this today and he informed me that it is always better to get bookshelf speakers in a home theater and said that floorstanders are for stereo mostly.

Your friend is right about bookshelves. Basically when we have subwoofers in the mix (purely speaking from the perspective of movies); all the bass hungry spectrum (80Hz and below) is routed to the sub. A quality sub is more capable of playing bass frequencies better than 99.99% of floor standing speakers. Even if you have capable speakers; it's wastage of resources and money if you cross them above 80Hz.

You can save money on bookshelves and have better bang for your buck going with at least a couple quality subs in an HT application.

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Main System: PSB X2T, PSB XC, PSB XB, Cambridge Audio Azur 751R, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S500
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:23 PM
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i got a deal on 4 yamaha bookshelf speakers, just wanted two for the rears, but went ahead and connected them, no way, sold the extra pair and i went back to my old cannon floor speakers for the fronts, and i already have a 150 watt powered subwoofer so i really didnt go back to them for base but the sound was much fuller. i know a lot of people do the book shelf speakers front and rear and use a sub but i tried it and it didnt work for me. i running jamo 707i,s for the fronts now and could be happier. thoses are a great pair of polks and i bet youll never regret getting them. full sound and as for base you can set them to just give enough and add a powered sub for full. talking money i believe when you get up in the $500.00 + each your getting quality, you get what you pay for and figure as soon as you hook them up youll tell the difference and smile. i did.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hotrod351 View Post

i got a deal on 4 yamaha bookshelf speakers, just wanted two for the rears, but went ahead and connected them, no way, sold the extra pair and i went back to my old cannon floor speakers for the fronts, and i already have a 150 watt powered subwoofer so i really didnt go back to them for base but the sound was much fuller. i know a lot of people do the book shelf speakers front and rear and use a sub but i tried it and it didnt work for me. i running jamo 707i,s for the fronts now and could be happier. thoses are a great pair of polks and i bet youll never regret getting them. full sound and as for base you can set them to just give enough and add a powered sub for full. talking money i believe when you get up in the $500.00 + each your getting quality, you get what you pay for and figure as soon as you hook them up youll tell the difference and smile. i did. and as jerrylove said, you really have to experiment, i was able to do that and found what worked best for me. put it like this, if you buy the polks your not going to be disappointed, if you do 4 book shelf's you might be disappointed and be out the money.
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Your friend is right about bookshelves. Basically when we have subwoofers in the mix (purely speaking from the perspective of movies); all the bass hungry spectrum (80Hz and below) is routed to the sub. A quality sub is more capable of playing bass frequencies better than 99.99% of floor standing speakers. Even if you have capable speakers; it's wastage of resources and money if you cross them above 80Hz.
Perhaps. But what about 1500Hz? That's pushing a tweeter awful low, and a driver capable of 80Hz with authority awful high.

Of course: we then get into the discussion that 2-way vs 3-way is seperate from BS vs FS, but it's not so cut-and-dry. *then* we realize that by lowering the F3 of a smaller drivers (say, with a transmission line) or by using more than one smaller driver (MTM), we can avoid the above 2-way problem... but the TL must be a tower, and the MTM more commonly is.

And so on and so forth. It's discussed at length in the other threads.
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