Can i get a larger soundstage by doing this SUPER CRAZY AWESOME idea? - AVS Forum
Speakers > Can i get a larger soundstage by doing this SUPER CRAZY AWESOME idea?
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 05:59 PM 11-06-2013
I figured the stupid title with capital letters would draw attention.

I'm going for added height to my soundstage so could i use 4 speakers and arrange them like this


and then either use multi-channel surround mode with center disengaged or just keep the signal in stereo mode
and just have two sets of wires tightened down in the binding posts of the receiver so each amp would power two speakers

I figured the woofers would need to be in the middle as generally (from what i have heard) they have less dispersion.

dctrombly's Avatar dctrombly 06:09 PM 11-06-2013
Sounds interesting for sure! You'd definitely want to have a receiver that could control the levels of each channel, otherwise the left and right sides are going to be very loud.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 06:18 PM 11-06-2013
what do you mean?
dctrombly's Avatar dctrombly 06:42 PM 11-06-2013
Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but are you sending the same signal to the heights as the their respective mains? If so then they're going to be twice as loud? I imagine it would sound off.
JerryLove's Avatar JerryLove 06:51 PM 11-06-2013
You'll have problems such as comb filtering.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 07:52 PM 11-06-2013
@dctrombly literally the same signal into four identical speakers. left amp would be feeding two speakers and right amp would be feeding two speakers.
i imagine, if anything the load would be greater therefore lower db's than just one speaker. Isnt that what volume is for anyways
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 07:59 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

I figured the woofers would need to be in the middle as generally (from what i have heard) they have less dispersion.

 

Wrong.  Subs have very wide dispersion and proper placement has less to do with the position of the main speakers than with the distribution of room modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@dctrombly literally the same signal into four identical speakers. left amp would be feeding two speakers and right amp would be feeding two speakers.
i imagine, if anything the load would be greater therefore lower db's than just one speaker. Isnt that what volume is for anyways

Won't be larger sounds but, if you send the same signal to all four speakers, a smaller one compared with discrete stereo or multichannel.  What the load is depends on the impedances of the speakers but with the each pair wired in parallel (as you describe), the effective impedance will the lower.  Perhaps that will stress the (undefined) amp but you will not get it to play significantly louder.

 

Sorry but this sounds pretty pointless to me.


bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 08:15 PM 11-06-2013
why is it that no height will be added to the image
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 08:16 PM 11-06-2013
@Kal, i don't understand your first sentence of your second response
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 08:23 PM 11-06-2013
@Jerrylove, if i run the top and bottom speakers spliced together then as long as i have them the same distance and keep them equally spaced apart from ear position then i comb filtering shouldn't be an issue but if so then couldnt i still do multichannel surround which is still basically the left rear gets the same signal as the left front and same via right side. then i could do audyssey and it would correct the timing right?
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar Bill Fitzmaurice 08:45 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

I'm going for added height to my soundstage so could i use 4 speakers and arrange them like this
That would introduce a number of phase related problems. Adding height to the sound stage isn't a matter of literally increasing the height of the speakers. This is best accomplished with an x.1 system using front height speakers with the correct DSP/decoding.
If you want to use dual speakers per channel the correct way is with 2 ways with the upper speaker inverted, placing the tweeters of the two cabs adjacent, as close to each other as possible.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 09:15 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@Kal, i don't understand your first sentence of your second response

"Subs have very wide dispersion and proper placement has less to do with the position of the main speakers than with the distribution of room modes."

 

1.  Subs do have very wide dispersion because their dimensions are quite small compared to the wavelength of the frequencies they reproduce.

 

2.  Those long wavelengths are greatly affected by room modes which create peaks and nulls at different sites in the room.


bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 09:36 PM 11-06-2013
can i feed a stereo signal into a receiver with x.1 channels and get the added height or is it only with encoded or pcm signals with the proper information
JerryLove's Avatar JerryLove 11:49 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

@dctrombly literally the same signal into four identical speakers. left amp would be feeding two speakers and right amp would be feeding two speakers.
i imagine, if anything the load would be greater therefore lower db's than just one speaker. Isnt that what volume is for anyways
Assuming your gain was set the same with each amp as it had been with one: you'd be consuming 2x the power and getting +6db.

If you lowered gain to keep power constant: you'd have +3db.
Quote:
if i run the top and bottom speakers spliced together then as long as i have them the same distance and keep them equally spaced apart from ear position then i comb filtering shouldn't be an issue but if so then couldnt i still do multichannel surround which is still basically the left rear gets the same signal as the left front and same via right side. then i could do audyssey and it would correct the timing right?
Best of luck with that.

comb-filter-diagram.gif
flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool 02:45 AM 11-07-2013
Why don't you just buy an AVR that supports height or wide channels and then run your music in multi channel mode?
FMW's Avatar FMW 05:43 AM 11-07-2013
Or better yet, why not learn to be satisfied with the soundstage that the recording engineer mixed in the first place. What most of us are trying to do is to reproduce well what the musicians and engineers produced. Why is that not an acceptable goal?
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 10:14 AM 11-07-2013
FMW, i heard something i liked so i'm going for it. it's that simple. every dynamic speaker i have heard created a very similar panoramic like image except for the Theils. The martin logan electro's also have added height to the sound and that's due to the large panels. I don't remember liking them though. i appreciated them but the cm9's were speaking to me and Logan's were missing some of the magic
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 10:20 AM 11-07-2013
You say that i'm not satisfied with the soundstage the engineers intended? what does that mean? i'm not trying to alter the digital image or the music. if anything i'm trying to alter the speaker by making 1 out of 2.
Are you trolling me
JerryLove's Avatar JerryLove 10:21 AM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

FMW, i heard something i liked so i'm going for it. it's that simple. every dynamic speaker i have heard created a very similar panoramic like image except for the Theils. The martin logan electro's also have added height to the sound and that's due to the large panels. I don't remember liking them though. i appreciated them but the cm9's were speaking to me and Logan's were missing some of the magic
Actually: the vertical off-axis on the ML panels is poor. ML's get their sound from being dipolar and from the nature of using an electro-static transducer.

What the large radiator does mean is that the rate of sound drop-off will be different; and that (mostly at HF) point-sourcing will be harder.

I personally am a big fan of the ML sound; but not the very small vertical sweet-spot, nor the increased dependency on room interaction.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 10:27 AM 11-07-2013
@Jerrylove your picture is intimidating but what about normal stereo imaging? those waves cross intentionally.
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 11:20 AM 11-07-2013
I too went for added height in my soundstage. Like others have suggested here, I did it with a Denon 4520. In fact, I'm using all 11.2 channels for heights and wide speakers. Using NEO:X it sounds outstanding. Mosey over to the 4520, X4000 or Audessey threads for more info ( and a lot of reading ). smile.gif



Martin Logan Motion 4 heights can be seen above the Motion 40 L / R speakers.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 02:01 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

You say that i'm not satisfied with the soundstage the engineers intended? what does that mean? i'm not trying to alter the digital image or the music. if anything i'm trying to alter the speaker by making 1 out of 2.
Are you trolling me

Keep your shirt on.  The responses you are getting are reasonable and responsible.  You are not "making 1 out of 2" but, by spacing each vertical pair, you are creating two interacting sources which is what Jerry's picture illustrates, i.e., the interference between the outputs of the two speakers.  

 

No one is trolling you but you do not seem to understand the basic acoustics of the matter.


Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar Bill Fitzmaurice 03:17 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Keep your shirt on.  The responses you are getting are reasonable and responsible.  You are not "making 1 out of 2" but, by spacing each vertical pair, you are creating two interacting sources which is what Jerry's picture illustrates, i.e., the interference between the outputs of the two speakers.  

No one is trolling you but you do not seem to understand the basic acoustics of the matter.
+1. If you want to make '1 out of 2' they must be placed as I already said to work as one. Spaced apart they will not act as one, they will act as two, and will both assist and fight each other, depending on the frequency and the listener position. For speakers placed apart to work well together they must have different source material. That's how stereo works, as the most basic example, or the mentioned 11.2, as an extreme example.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 09:08 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Keep your shirt on.  The responses you are getting are reasonable and responsible.  

No one is trolling you but you do not seem to understand the basic acoustics of the matter.

? no negativity here.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 09:08 PM 11-07-2013
maybe i could have put an lol at the end of me asking if he was trolling me.
Elihawk's Avatar Elihawk 09:13 PM 11-07-2013
I guess do whatever you want, but you asked for advice and many of our avs expert have said it would be a bad idea!
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 09:20 PM 11-07-2013
i never said i neglected that. i obviously didn't understand what they were saying and thought possibly they didn't get what i was saying because to me, it seamed like it would work. They confirmed they understood and i never suggested anything after that.

I would like to try it for myself just to hear the effects just to have experienced it and try to understand it more.
bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 09:28 AM 11-08-2013
I understand now that left and right signals must meet to create a stereo image and that what i was misunderstanding is that a left signal on top of a left signal (or right) that is the same will not blend but rather cause comb filtering

How does the audyssey neoX fix comb filtering? or does it not?
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 10:11 AM 11-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

I understand now that left and right signals must meet to create a stereo image and that what i was misunderstanding is that a left signal on top of a left signal (or right) that is the same will not blend but rather cause comb filtering

How does the audyssey neoX fix comb filtering? or does it not?

The comb-filtering is the consequence of having the identical signals being emitted from both speakers.  AudysseyDSX and dts-neo modify the signals sent to the upper speakers so that they are not identical to those from the lower ones.


bthrb4u's Avatar bthrb4u 10:22 AM 11-08-2013
gotcha
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