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post #1 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Please tell me if this to much speaker for my small dedicated HT room. Room is 8'x18'x8' I wanted to use diysound group fusion 10's for lcr and fusion 8's for the 2 surrounds of a 5.1 system plus a Dayton 15 for sub woofer.
What are you thoughts?
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post #2 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 05:37 AM
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I'm not familiar with those speakers, but for a small room, dipole surrounds may be the thing.
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post #3 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 06:04 AM
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I don't think there is such a thing as speaker overkill. All of our systems are complete with volume controls.
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post #4 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 09:55 AM
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That wouldn't be overkill at all. I have the Fusion 10 Pure for LCR and I love them. They are great sounding speakers. I have some Karma 8's on order for surround duty. I should be receiving the kits soon. There will be some 6 inch designs coming soon too that will be ideal for surrounds. If you have the skills and the time, DIY is the way to go. IMO
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post #5 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 10:03 AM
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My thought is that the speakers are fine except that the Dayton sub is not a very good-sounding one.

An NHT B12D is much much better, with better bass control and much more linear response.

Even a Klipsch RW12D will sound much cleaner than the Dayton.
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post #6 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarki View Post

That wouldn't be overkill at all. I have the Fusion 10 Pure for LCR and I love them. They are great sounding speakers. I have some Karma 8's on order for surround duty. I should be receiving the kits soon. There will be some 6 inch designs coming soon too that will be ideal for surrounds. If you have the skills and the time, DIY is the way to go. IMO

yeah I heard there were some 6" in the works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

My thought is that the speakers are fine except that the Dayton sub is not a very good-sounding one.

An NHT B12D is much much better, with better bass control and much more linear response.

Even a Klipsch RW12D will sound much cleaner than the Dayton.

I thought the dayton audio 15" ultimax was a good choice. I guess it's all selective. I'll continue looking.

Thanks guys
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post #7 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 10:24 AM
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You might want to head over to the DIY section to get some info/opinions on the Dayton sub. I've never heard one but thought they got favorable reviews.
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post #8 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 10:35 AM
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The Dayton Ultimax is outstanding in every respect. It is the best sounding sub I've ever heard (no I haven't heard them all.) The cheapo Dayton subs do get some bad press. The ultimax will cost you between $400 and $500 to build and will literally walk over any Sub Klipsch makes. I'm not giving you an opinion based on someone else's experience. Here is a shot of my Ulitmax 15..

ultimaxsub.jpg
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post #9 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I don't think there is such a thing as speaker overkill. All of our systems are complete with volume controls.


I totally agree! The only overkill is the size on a very limited space.

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post #10 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I don't think there is such a thing as speaker overkill. All of our systems are complete with volume controls.

+1 ^ This is good…. I like the:  "complete with volume controls." :D 

 

Its also very true, no such thing as speaker overkill as long as you are happy with your speakers, you can always tame them with the volume control. 

 

On second thought, perhaps speaker overkill occurs when you no longer have space to sit in the room. :rolleyes:

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post #11 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

the Dayton sub is not a very good-sounding one.
Even a Klipsch RW12D will sound much cleaner than the Dayton.


What are you talking about?confused.gif

What Dayton are you referring to? The Dayton HO driver in a DIY sub sounds every bit as good as a Seaton Submersive which in my opinion is the best sound quality sub I've heard and I've heard a ton of subs, many in my own room. Hearing a Dayton HO DIY sub in my room and comparing back and forth for days between it and my Submersives is what pushed me over into the world of DIY.

Now, I haven't heard the Ultimax driver. If it sounds like the HO then the OP is golden.

I have heard the Klipsch RW12D sub and it's an ok deal if you can get one cheap but sounds bloaty and has very little low end output and is completely outclassed in every way by subs from many of the ID companies.
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post #12 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

... On second thought, perhaps speaker overkill occurs when you no longer have space to sit in the room. rolleyes.gif

Now that's funny biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I don't think there is such a thing as speaker overkill. All of our systems are complete with volume controls.

+ 1000 Too much is NEVER enough...........overkill only exists in what type of pants a golfer wears biggrin.gif

Spinning the rear tire at 150mph while at 3/4 lean angle will put wrinkles in your seat
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post #14 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

... On second thought, perhaps speaker overkill occurs when you no longer have space to sit in the room. rolleyes.gif

Now that's funny biggrin.gif


This just bring me a big smile... thank you biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundersnow View Post

Please tell me if this to much speaker for my small dedicated HT room. Room is 8'x18'x8' I wanted to use diysound group fusion 10's for lcr and fusion 8's for the 2 surrounds of a 5.1 system plus a Dayton 15 for sub woofer.
What are you thoughts?

No, not overkill. Upping the sub count to obtain more uniform bass throughout the room might be a good idea.
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post #16 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 04:30 PM
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Commysman, have you ever owned a Dayton sub?

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #17 of 35 Old 11-17-2013, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Commysman, have you ever owned a Dayton sub?


I think he might be thinking of their cheapie subs that have low quality drivers not the big powerful high output drivers that guys use for DIY subs with fantastic results. I had a 100 watt Dayton sub 10 years ago that was a POS, but that is not what we are talking about here.
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post #18 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 06:15 AM
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The Ultimax driver is a beast. If you go through the specs you will see that the only potential issue is Xmax (maximum excursion.) That's why the 15" is good choice. It makes up for the Xmax when compared to a 12". The driver weighs 32 lbs and my finished sub weighs in at 85 lbs. You can literally hit the stiff nomex cone with a hammer and not damage it. It is not a light weight. I get all the output I need at 25 hz in my room from a sealed sub. Content that low is pretty rare. I'm sure the driver would go well below 20hz in a ported box. I don't run my sub very loud because I use it mostly for music. Even when reproducing movie LFE I can't see the cone move. I can feel it, of course. The sub is obviously more than I need to handle the kind of listening I do. No need to worry about the Ulimax. I'm sure the OP will be as happy as I am with mine.
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post #19 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Commysman, have you ever owned a Dayton sub?

Knowing the kind of equipment he affects, even just spelling Dayton might be quite a feat for him. I think that based on some weird posts of his about subs that seemed like they came from outer space, large subwoofers as a category is unfamiliar ground for him. He was still recommending floor standers as the be-all and end-all for L&R.

The Ultimax Dayton 15 seems to be a lot like a Stereo Integrity 15 in terms of max bass, but designed for different sized boxes. I have two waiting Sis for boxes. Woofers in that category are very non-trivial, and I wouldn't overemphasize the slight difference in Xmax.
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post #20 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I am now 100% certain it will be the ultimax dayton 15 for me.

Thanks guys for the help.
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post #21 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 11:57 AM
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Good luck. Call Parts Express to see if they still have the combination deal with the flat pack and driver. I think I bought the combo at $265 which is a steal. Then pick whichever plate amp lights your fire. Be sure to get some stuffing, wire and rubber feet. The finishing supplies are at your local home store. Be sure you understand that sealed subs need to be seal or you will hear air puffing through the cracks. Be sure you have some thin weatherstripping for the driver and amp (or terminal). I think you will enjoy the project as well as the finished sub.
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post #22 of 35 Old 11-18-2013, 01:54 PM
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^ That's really good advice about the details in proper finishing for a sealed sub. 

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post #23 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 04:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Good luck. Call Parts Express to see if they still have the combination deal with the flat pack and driver. I think I bought the combo at $265 which is a steal. Then pick whichever plate amp lights your fire. Be sure to get some stuffing, wire and rubber feet. The finishing supplies are at your local home store. Be sure you understand that sealed subs need to be seal or you will hear air puffing through the cracks. Be sure you have some thin weatherstripping for the driver and amp (or terminal). I think you will enjoy the project as well as the finished sub.

Just checked and the combination deal is still available for $265 so I loaded it into my shopping cart and then checked estimated shipping... Wow! $145 for shipping... I guess there is no way around this, maybe I will head down to my local HiFi shop and see what they can offer that comes close in performance then I won't have to pay shipping. This sucks as I had my heart set on the Dayton.

 

Update:

I just called PE and they took off the $145 shipping charge, the rep explained that it was a glitch in the computer system they are working on getting it fixed.

So I ordered the sub... giggity!

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post #24 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 06:47 AM
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Excellent. What did you choose for an amplifier?
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post #25 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Excellent. What did you choose for an amplifier?

I haven't choose the amp yet, I'm a few months away from completing my HT room and basement so I have plenty of time to make the decision.

I just wanted to scratch a little itch and actually buy myself something fun instead of more sheetrock.

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post #26 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundersnow View Post

I haven't choose the amp yet, I'm a few months away from completing my HT room and basement so I have plenty of time to make the decision.
I just wanted to scratch a little itch and actually buy myself something fun instead of more sheetrock.

Just understand that the first thing you need to do to assemble the sub is to cut a hole in the rear panel for the amp (or terminal if you are using an external amp.) Good luck with the project.
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post #27 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Just understand that the first thing you need to do to assemble the sub is to cut a hole in the rear panel for the amp (or terminal if you are using an external amp.) Good luck with the project.

Unless you choose to use an external amp(IE: Behringer iNuke). I have two of the flat pack/HO kits powered by an iNuke 3000. Works great. However, the pro amps run louder (fan noise) than plate amps. Something to keep in mind if your amps are in the same room as your seating area.

Have fun with the build. Remember it's as much about the journey as it is the destination.
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post #28 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianick View Post

Unless you choose to use an external amp(IE: Behringer iNuke). I have two of the flat pack/HO kits powered by an iNuke 3000. Works great. However, the pro amps run louder (fan noise) than plate amps. Something to keep in mind if your amps are in the same room as your seating area.

Have fun with the build. Remember it's as much about the journey as it is the destination.

That's what I said. He needs to cut a hole either for the plate amp or for the terminal.
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post #29 of 35 Old 11-19-2013, 01:20 PM
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(NOTE: some edits included, some in labelled blocks and some distributed throughout. Sorry. Just trying to do my best for the OP.) smile.gif

I admire the enthusiasm of the OP.

Maybe I am just too literal, but it sounds like he might be overlooking some aspects in favor of others (like size and acoustic power vs. imaging and matching). Anyway, I did a data dump here just in case. (Thundersnow did indicate his final decisions are off in the future so now its the time to reflect on the whole picture). I am not experienced with bass traps or soundproofing so he will need to figure that aspect out independently. I do have a little bit of experience with setting up four systems in two homes anyway. I am a design engineer and I did some research while experimenting, so I should have something constructive to add even if I cannot match the level of enthusiasm of some of you boys and certainly not the expertise of the professionals.

There are several ways that I can consider speakers to be overkill. You will have to figure them out for yourself, how important they are to you, but here are my own personal criteria. The first is always what you guys call 'WAF'. In my household, that somewhat pejorative term has a somewhat 'inverted' meaning, but it still rings true. The more complicated the relationship, the more critical the accommodations.

If the cost of the speakers crowds out basic necessities like food clothes and rent I might shy away. On my local San Francisco Bay Area Craig's List, my own favorite hunting ground, you would be surprised how many great deals I see on used equipment that is being sold to make up for the rest of the monthly rent payment. Even if the cost of the speakers is not killing your budget, it might crowd out other components such as television and receiver, forcing you to settle for less than you would otherwise be comfortable with, while making you nervous about your finances.

If the size and appearance of the speakers is distracting or overcrowding, it may become offensive to you or your spouse, who may not be so enamored of the charms of home theater, preferring reality to entertainment (when was the last time the two of you went on a cruise?) or even just desiring an uncluttered and airy feel to the home to keep the mind focused on the important things in life rather than distracted with toys and entertainment. This especially annoys a spouse when the power output is such that there is no way you can ever make full use of the speakers in the room they sit (or the building you share), making it appear that you have wasted an incredible amount of money on a dream that can never be realized within the constraints of your own personal financial reality. This can even become an issue if the lot your house sits on is too small and requires construction of a sound-proofed room in order to take advantage of the system to its fullest extent. Are you in a position to take advantage of the raw sound power your target system will produce, or is that power going to be largely wasted because you cannot afford to wake the baby?

Another aspect is the imaging, that in turn depends on speaker placement among other things. If the size and distribution of drivers in a multi-way speaker system is such that the physical distance between the separate drivers (that are dedicated to discrete frequency bands) is a substantial fraction of the distance between you and the speaker cabinet, the sound image can become muddled, with part of the spectrum coming from your near left above and the other part coming from your far left below, and both are pointing at other furniture or drapes or other obstructions in the overcrowded room. I am having some minor issues with my own two front towers in my tiny living room, where the bass port is on the back near the floor (and therefore very sensitive to speaker placement relative to the wall), the two 8" woofers are on the side bottom -- facing the subwoofer on the left channel and the media center computer on the right channel -- and the MTM mid-tweeter-mid array is on the top front and too high. The overcrowding makes the front sound stage 'feel' crowded and disjointed and very sensitive to seating arrangement, whereas another installation of mine that is composed of four slightly smaller towers of the same make, in a substantially larger room, sounds fabulous. I eventually ended up swapping the two towers in my small living room for each other, so that the woofers now face each other, pointing in toward the open set of glass shelves under my television rather than out at other boxy components that block the mid bass. I suspect you will not have this problem with the speakers you chose.

However I am concerned about your choice of horns for tweeters. Although they provide fantastic efficiency, many people find horns to be tiring to listen to. It has something to do with the distortion that can arise from compression of the rear wave, and the beaming of sound from highly directional horns, and the possibility of frequency response peaks. I do not know how it all works to tell the truth but I do know that I do not like the sound of horn tweeters. They grab my attention and that is always a bad sign. I have not heard any modern horn tweeters so I might be behind the times but I still see complaints on the boards even today. I definitely recommend that you listen to the assembled speakers before deciding on the purchase, unless you already know that you love the sound of horns. To me, horns always sound 'cheap', as if the sound is being shouted through cupped hands -- especially if the tweeter is being driven into the upper midrange as well as treble. To me, it is not worth putting up with the 'horn sound' just to avoid the extra cost and modestly lower efficiency of a 3-way system with a dome tweeter.

Vertical line arrays can make the sound stage seem spatially distorted in the vertical dimension if one sits or stands too close. I do suspect you are not going to install line arrays. Dipole speakers (EDIT: Sorry, I meant in this particular context specifically, the rather esoteric electrostatic or 'true' mid & tweeter dipole such as Magnepan, where there is typically only one radiating diaphragm per frequency band that is typically connected as a front channel, with the front wave from its diaphragm directly facing the listener while the rear wave points toward the front wall and adds ambiance, or the Heil compression driver or 'acoustic transformer' bass dipole where the front wave is compressed in a tight chamber between an array of diaphragms that face each other in a tight space and is then forced through a forward-facing slot, while the rear waves from the drivers are vented out the back of the array behind a wide and tall baffle with no compression) likewise require a substantial amount of space around and behind them. (EDIT: sorry, I know this is unnecessarily complicated, I guess I just got carried away. The OP is obviously not considering any such esoteric solution.)

Also, the compression in the room can become a problem with larger woofers that are generally intended for larger spaces. The extra boundary gain of a small room can actually distort the spectrum of large speakers, making them sound hollow or heavy and unnatural, even if they are not subwoofers. Some THX certified speakers and receivers actually come with boundary gain adjustments to alleviate the heaviness of larger woofers in a smaller space. Conversely, small woofers tend to get lost in a large room and may sound tinny. They need the extra boundary gain of a small room to fill out the bottom end. This boundary gain is a factor that is taken into account by the receiver and speaker manufacturer, and the OP should take it into account also or else he is not doing his due diligence. I suspect that all the woofers the OP chose are either optimally sized or oversized for such a small room and he should definitely compare them (or similar woofers) to smaller woofers in the same space before making his final decision. It might be depressing having to stumble around bulky cabinets that actually worsen the performance of the system.

Surround sound for music generally requires matching speakers all around, as far as physically possible, to maintain the best timbre matching possible, for natural-sounding musical instruments no matter which channel the instrument sounds come from. This might necessitate smaller speakers for the front towers to enable matching cabinets for the side surrounds and even the front center.

Conversely, surround sound for movies generally requires more subtle ambiance effect in the side and rear (and top and bottom) surround channels, allowing the speakers to melt into the distance even if they are placed quite close to the listener. (EDIT: popular surround-type dipole-bipoles or even full-range drivers) can help 'restrict' the imaging of surrounds to ambiance rather than 'front and center presence', creating a more panoramic surround. Dipoles actually create ambiance whereas full range drivers tend to limit the sound to midrange that is heavy with ambiance while de-emphasizing spatially distracting treble.

These two opposing goals (music vs theater) are nearly impossible to meet simultaneously on a typical budget. Overkill in one area may make the system undesirable for the other, so most systems are tailored to one or the other and some systems even provide for a separate dedicated pair of large speakers for stereo music listening in addition to 5 or 7 smaller speakers for home theater surround sound. I can even envision two completely separate systems coexisting in the same room. Personally I prefer a compromise surround sound system with enough ambiance for home theater, but also with enough accuracy in frequency response and imaging to make critical surround music listening at least a pleasurable experience, if not ideal. (EDIT: the OP's selection of matching left-center-right but slightly smaller matching surrounds is a good affordable compromise solution that targets a system with nearly equally good performance for surround theater and surround music, but selectable mode dipole-bipole surrounds might add even more realistic ambiance for theater in such a tight space, while preserving the selectable option of more coherent surround imaging for critical music listening, with only a marginal increase in cost - he should check if a distributor has matching dipole-bipole surround speakers available in a model line that he likes, with either one or two bass drivers in each cabinet. My dipoles are not selectable, but they have one forward-facing woofer and two obliquely-angled out-of-phase tweeters, so the mid-bass performance avoids being compromised by phased cancellation but the midrange ambiance these dipoles add is unfortunately limited to whatever upper midrange comes out the dome tweeters -- in other words, the compromises are built-in rather than selectable and these 'dipoles' of mine barely qualify for the term. They are definitely 'mildly' dipoles, as opposed to models that have two obliquely angled woofers and tweeters.)

Someone else mentioned dipoles already. I use four dipoles in my 7.1 system in my tiny living room, without any notice or care about the repeated admonitions on this forum not to waste more than 5 channels on a small space without enough depth in the room to accommodate the rear sound stage. I put the side surrounds on stands beside the sofa, I hung the rear surrounds above my head on the rear wall, and I pulled my sofa half a meter from the rear wall, and swapped the left and right towers, and all is good. I get incredible surround imaging but the sweet spot is very small. I live alone now so that is not a factor to me.

(EDIT: The OP has a dilemma with such a long and narrow space. I also have a cramped yet slightly squarer space than the OP has available, with approximately 14' between my front and rear walls even with my television on the longer wall, so I have plenty of space for my front towers and side surrounds on stands. Even so, I found that my space is so cramped that successfully selecting and placing speakers required strict adherence to the guidelines found all over this forum. The OP has only 8' between two opposing walls of his basement home theater room to shoehorn his system into. He must decide which wall to place the television on, and the choice may have more to do with doorways, walkways and stairs than personal preference. He may have very limited flexibility, which is likely why he is asking if his speakers are 'overkill' for such a small space. My answer is that he will have to carefully design his system into the space available, and he has several uncomfortable compromises to consider -- the choice of highly affordable DIY speaker systems indicates that finances may also be primary concern, especially since he was uncomfortable with potential shipping costs. He may actually be facing overkill in the choice of his main channel woofers -- relative to his tight budget -- along with simultaneous underkill in the number and complexity of his surround speakers -- again due to limited budget.

I have tried using my matched lineup of two monopole three-way MTM front towers and horizontal MTM two-way center with my matching dipole side surrounds and a set of mis-matched monopole rear surrounds in my admittedly cramped living room. The result was an imaging disaster, with the mismatched rear monopoles screaming for attention even though they are Infinity bookshelf speakers and the line is considered to be 'quality' if not professional. The information coming from them was almost entirely limited to extracted ambiance from a Dolby Pro Logic IIX 7.1 surround processing algorithm or a Neo 6.1 algorithm. Mismatched monopole rear surrounds were highly unsatisfying and distracting, especially being right behind my head. Even Dolby EX 6.1 soundtracks on some of my DVD's sounded distracting with OB1's voice coming out of the mismatched monopole rear surrounds.

However I did manage to successfully use my matched lineup of front towers, horizontal center, and dipole side surrounds along with matching dipole rear surrounds in a fabulous 7.1 arrangement, thanks to E-bay that conveniently had another used pair of matching dipole surrounds just waiting for me to purchase, I also temporarily experimented in my cramped living room with four of the same line of slightly smaller monopole three-way towers all around plus the same two-way matching center in a spectacular 5.1 arrangemen. That system eventually ended up in a much larger living room for my son's enjoyment with his PS3 and I eventually extended it to a 6.1 system courtesy of another matching center speaker from E-bay. Both of these arrangements are highly satisfying, even the 5.1 in my cramped living room with monopole towers all around despite the traditional wisdom that says use dipole surrounds in a small space.

My 7.1 system using mismatched monopole rear surrounds located directly behind my head was an imaging disaster. If the OP is intending to also place his television on the longer wall as I did, he may be quite crowded for rear surrounds. In that case, rear surrounds may be either dipoles or omitted, or side surrounds may be monopoles or dipoles, but the OP should carefully consider that having only 8' between the front and rear walls is almost equivalent to a near-field speaker placement, especially if he uses rear surrounds and moves his sofa slightly away from the wall as I did. He should carefully consider the option of placing the television on the shorter wall in order to allow for rear surround channels and to allow for somewhat more space between the listener and the front sound stage, in exchange for tighter near-field placement of the side surrounds that could be no more than 4' away. In that case of placing the television on the shorter wall, the side surrounds should almost certainly be dipoles for surround theater and then the rear surrounds should also be dipoles to maintain the diffused ambiance behind the listener. In short, I question the choice of monopole surrounds in such a cramped space, especially if considering future expansion to 7 or more channels. The only arrangement I would consider for monopole surrounds is if the television is on the longer wall like mine, so that there is ample space between the listener and the side surrounds, and any future expansion of channels under consideration is strictly limited to an additional subwoofer and/or front high channels with Dolby Pro Logic IIZ ambiance extraction algorithm or equivalent synthetic room 'presence' algorithm from Yamaha etc. -- definitely not rear surrounds that would of necessity be almost aligned with the back of the sofa if the television is on the longer wall.)

Another factor is additional extracted or synthesized ambiance and bass room modes. Had the OP considered 7.1, 7.2, 9.1, 9.2 etc? Phased bass array? Might as well go whole-hog if he is exuberant about his speaker choice. Design for the future and he might save some money in the future.

Perhaps such a large subwoofer in such a small space will set up modes that broadcast to ocean whales. Given a choice, I would definitely place such a large subwoofer 1/3 of the way along one wall rather than in a corner. Being sealed may help reduce the effect of boundary gain because a sealed subwoofer has a natural gradual rolloff rather than a designed-in sharp rolloff. In that case, maybe the corner is the place to be. It might depend on the capacity of the amp too. If the amp is somewhat anemic and the sub is sealed, the only satisfactory placement may be a corner because the corner gives maximum room gain to a subwoofer.

Some subwoofers have a THX boundary gain switch, that may come in handy too, but if so then it is important to try and match it to a receiver that understands THX boundary gain such as a higher end Onkyo. Anyway I see that you already ordered the subwoofer so it is too late to discuss that.

That space the OP is designing for is long and narrow like a real theater, but still small. He has the opportunity to put in rear surrounds but the speaker placement and listener positioning need to be carefully designed. His sweet spot should be in the middle of the room and his television should be approximately 5' wide, and hopefully the television is on a short wall rather than a long one. I would definitely consider adding two more (simpler or smaller) surrounds in the rear and using at least a 7.1 receiver. At the very least, he would be able to enjoy all the independent sound tracks that ship with the average blu ray movie. Even a surprising number of DVD titles are 6 channel. Front high speakers (so I am told) are more useful than rear surrounds for extracting ambiance from five channel titles so he might want to consider a 7.1 receiver with both dolby pro logic IIX and IIZ, one where he can wire for both and select one or the other set of ambiance speakers. Then a second additional pair of (simpler or smaller) monopole surrounds could suffice for front high speakers, bringing him a stunning ambient sound stage no matter what content he watches.

Regarding his choice of a 5.1 system, my response to his original question (is it overkill) I would respond that 5.1 is probably underkill. I managed to make 7.1 work well in an apartment the size of his basement and I am considering 9.2 for the future, or at least switchable between rear surround and front high.

My personal preference is to balance all these factors against each other. I know it makes for a more difficult job designing the system, but it really pays to install everything you possibly can and test it before buying it, especially if it can be installed in a similar room and tested with similar material.

The final point I will make comes back to my original concern about 'WAF' (I hate that term) and budget. I managed to purchase and install four complete and excellent sounding systems ranging from 2.1 to 7.1 entirely composed of used equipment. Of course, I am skilled at design and repair so I have an advantage there, but I am not much for DIY cabinet construction in an apartment setting. I am glad the OP is taking advantage of whatever savings he can get through DIY. Just remember that many DIY products and projects actually cost more (you pay for the pleasure of building it yourself from an idiot-proofed kit). Likewise, used equipment can cost more than intended. I had to repair a receiver and a subwoofer that I did not realize had problems until after I bought them. Even so, I came out way ahead by shopping intensely and only buying bargain deals (because I was prepared to do all the repairs myself, even replacing the subwoofer plate amp and replacing bad capacitors in the underdesigned HDMI PCB of my receiver). There is a definite premium attached to that 'new smell' and warranty (but it does help protect against the sort of component failures I had to correct myself).

The 'volume control' will not make any difference to these concerns. It is all about designing the system for the room. As a design engineer, I am very familiar with the necessity to take advantage of all the 'side effects' of particular technological approaches, fitting them together like a jigsaw puzzle to optimize the final solution. The weakest link in a sound system is the speakers, followed by the room, followed by the processing algorithm (at least that is my minimally informed opinion). It is vital to match them to each other and take into account the ultimate use model (primarily music or movie or equally both).

With the speaker sizes the OP mentioned and a long narrow rectangular room, I would be primarily concerned that he has no money or room for the extra ambiance channels of a higher-end home theater system and he also has the possibility of too much bass compression and heavy, muddy bass that will make music listening a gruelling experience, while suffering from some undesirable room modes (standing waves) that may distort the frequency response of his subwoofer. Another concern is that DIY or budget speaker enclosures may not have complex curves or non-parallel surfaces. Parallel flat surfaces inside a speaker enclosure tend to set up resonances due to sound waves bouncing between the parallel surfaces like a rubber ball bouncing between the walls of a hallway. Internal bracing and packed damping material can help break up these modes but the only cure is rounded, non-parallel, non-flat surfaces. The final comment I would make on the OP's choices is to ensure optimal placement with stands or shelving or wall mounts. That plus my prior comment on whether or not horns really suit him (and his partner/spouse -- remember, the fairer sex tends to have more sensitive treble response).

I guess one thing the OP can deliberate on with himself immediately is what receiver to use. I suggest (if he can afford it) he should get at least a 7.1 or 7.2 receiver with separate front high and rear surround speaker connections so that he can switch between the two for 5.1 sound tracks (many 5.1 DVD's have a sixth rear surround channel matrix encoded with Dolby EX and most 5.1 movies, concerts and sports with no discrete rear surround channels benefit from front high speakers -- so I am told). Even if he cannot afford the extra speakers today, he will be well-positioned for the future if his receiver has the capacity to decode and drive them. Regarding 3d capability or 4k capability, he will need to do his own research. I know nothing about such advanced video modes and could not afford them at today's prices (even used) even if I did know enough about them to make an informed choice. Such factors may affect his choice of speakers. The models he chose seem to be moderately priced, but compared to sale priced finished product I always consider DIY to be an unnecessary burden and risk, unless there is some special constraint that demands a custom solution.

I truly recommend visiting as many brick-and-mortar establishments as possible, keeping in mind the various factors I mentioned, so that the OP can get a feel for the interaction between speaker size and placement versus room size and shape (and furnishings). Another suggestion is borrowing or purchasing and returning several Internet Direct sets of evaluation speakers in the actual room he is designing for, before making a final decision. He should spend as much time as possible evaluating the situation before making his decisions, and use as varied a library of material as possible, so that he can detect subtle nuances he might otherwise miss. If he does not, he may find himself paying interest on a system for decades while hating the sound.

Just my 2 cents (I really miss that c with the vertical line through it).

Oh yes, the final caveat of course is, your mileage may vary. Everyone has different preferences and different time horizons. Some people carry one system with them every time they move and others redesign from scratch every year. It all depends on what floats your boat. So take all advice with a grain of salt and something something about the spice of life. Just please don't spend yourself into a hole and sell everything off at a loss. End of cliche. End of diatribe.

(P.S. Anyone know how to embed special characters here?)
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I apologize ,but who is going to read all that!!! eek.gif
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