Is it worth upgrading to floor standing speakers? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.

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post #2 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 01:50 AM
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I haven't received mine yet (RF-82II) but from what I have read the difference would be immense. And they have been called very good for 2 channel stereo because they handle the lows, mids, and highs very well. Listening to them compared to your little bose would probably bring a tear to your eye.

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post #3 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 03:38 AM
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Yes definitely worth upgrading speakers. You may want to look at other options as well. Do you use a sub for music? If you do I would highly recommend replacing that klipsch sub as well.

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post #4 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.
Since you have a sub there's not much to be gained by going to floor standers. Floor standers are big, because they have to be to work well below 80hz. If you're not using them below 80Hz their extra size isn't doing anything for you. I would ditch the 301s for better bookshelves. As for the high sensitivity claimed by Klipsch, their speakers are no more sensitive than anyone else's, they just say that they are. They consistently measure 6 to 8 dB lower than what their advertising says. It's only their cinema and heritage lines that are actually high efficiency.

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post #5 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 08:03 AM
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If you like your content loud and detailed. Yes you would have much to gain.

Not to say you won't get the effect by going bigger even with a sub, something to think about is two channel stereo.
My setup sounds better in two channel then with a sub for music. Movies it's a totally different game, but even with a sub, the larger towers are much warranted.

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post #6 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.
The Klipsch will play much louder and clear over the Bose 301 > However, do not get
carried away with their inflated sensitivity specs

Also, since you do have a sub - the Klipsch Reference bookshelf speakers, will be a
clear and loud step-up over the 301 > like the RF-62 or RF-61
http://www.crutchfield.com/shopsearch/klipsch_reference_bookshelf_speakers.html

Another big clear difference over the Bose, is the HTD Level Three
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

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post #7 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I do use a sub for music but I was thinking if I use the tower speakers that i wouldn't need to use the sub or only use it if I want a lot of bass. But part of the reason I want to upgrade is that sub just doesn't sound that clear to me, it has a lot a bass but is kinda sounds slow i guess.  I only have around 1500 right now so if I bought another sub it would be a little later.

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post #8 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 11:49 AM
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If you go with Klipsch the RF62 or 82s would work well. I have the 62s and they have quite a bit of bass. Enough for most types of music, rock, jazz, blues, that I listen to.

Even though I have a really good sub I sometimes like to listen to them with the sub off. And I agree with you about your sub. A pair of Klipsch towers will have tighter more defined bass.

When watching movies and using the sub, you'll still enjoy a little more mid bass and punch with the towers than you would with bookshelf speakers. Might even want to run them full range in addition to you sub.

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post #9 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

 I only have around 1500 right now so if I bought another sub it would be a little later.
Depending on what you buy - you can have both for $1500, and will be a clear step-up above your current system.

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post #10 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I do use a sub for music but I was thinking if I use the tower speakers that i wouldn't need to use the sub or only use it if I want a lot of bass. But part of the reason I want to upgrade is that sub just doesn't sound that clear to me, it has a lot a bass but is kinda sounds slow i guess.
Subs aren't 'slow', nor do they sound 'clear'. At least 90% of the issues attributed by the uninformed to subs aren't caused by the subs, they're caused by the mains. Bose 301s are pretty crappy, so whatever shortcomings your system has can probably be attributed to them, not the sub.

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post #11 of 108 Old 12-28-2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers [...] so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii?
It would likely be worth the money to upgrade to better speakers. Bookshelf or floor-standing. It is typically ergonomics that dictates which (if you are going to put bookshelves on stands, floor-standing speakers may actually cost less), though sometimes people opt for 3-way designs (which are more commonly floor-speakers).

Which speaker sounds better is generally a function of the individual speaker rather than the floor-vs-bookshelf issue.

Muddy sounding subwoofers (and I'm surprised Bill just glossed over this in his rush to focus on a love of bookshelves) can be a subwoofer placement problem within the room. Try moving it. IF you google "subwoofer placement" or "sub crawl", you should find many guides on how to do that.
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post #12 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.

Absolutely. Nearly any speakers in the industry will sound better than what Bose produces. Make a budget and go listen to some.
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post #13 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 04:44 PM
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I switched from bookshelves to floorstanding speakers and I am MUCH happier. I gained a more dynamically full sound. With or without a sub I'm happy I switched my fronts out. I've had Bose in the past, everyone is right, they are truly awful when compared to the competition.

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post #14 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 05:13 PM
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I agree with most people. Just about any floor speaker and most bookshelves will out perform your 301s. it is all going to boil down to budget and personal taste. for music many prefer to be able to listen to music in its original 2 channel format which means that ideally you would not need the sub unless as you said you wanted a lot of bass. However this means that ideally the 2 channel setup would be good enough to cover the full spectrum of audio that comes from music. This is easier said than done. However it can be achieved. Set a budget and go listen to speakers in a place where they know what their doing. also post a budget on here that will make it easier for people to make suggestions. Personally, I am not a huge klipsh fan, until you get really high end I find the horns to be brash. That's my personal opinion.
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post #15 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.

It depends on what floor standing and bookshelves your are bringing in for comparison.
For example, i think the arx make a decent 3 way that wont break the bank. Among their line, the floorstand is $749 while their booshelves are $299. A jump more then 2x in price, but what you get is a dedicated mid, two more woofer and 5 db more efficiency. The tower in theory will play louder with the same power and with less distortion.There is good reason why floorstanding are made and is not just for low end.
With higher sensitivity, you will need less watts to play loud compare to a 85db of the arx monitor. This is a plus if you have a big room, but even if you dont, your amp simply will have more headroom.
Not sure what subs you are using, but emo and svs makes some not too expensiive sub. With two, you will likely have a smoother in room response. This is just an example.
Keep in mind that most bookshelves are probably going to need stands which means additional money.

This is just an example
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post #16 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

I switched from bookshelves to floorstanding speakers and I am MUCH happier. I gained a more dynamically full sound. With or without a sub I'm happy I switched my fronts out. I've had Bose in the past, everyone is right, they are truly awful when compared to the competition.

Agreed. No idea why any one would say other wise. Floor standing speakers play loud with less effort and sound bigger and better for it. Sub or no sub get some floor standers

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post #17 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Since you have a sub there's not much to be gained by going to floor standers. Floor standers are big, because they have to be to work well below 80hz. If you're not using them below 80Hz their extra size isn't doing anything for you. I would ditch the 301s for better bookshelves. As for the high sensitivity claimed by Klipsch, their speakers are no more sensitive than anyone else's, they just say that they are. They consistently measure 6 to 8 dB lower than what their advertising says. It's only their cinema and heritage lines that are actually high efficiency.
lol you post this a lot (like everyday it seems like) Right or wrong Klipsch measure all their speakers the same regardless of what line. I have old and new and both are very dynamic.

My rf7ii measure right at what my Cornwalls measure. If your right they would be 6-8 db less (being that they are both rated right around 100)That is false they are about even give or take a db it's reay close. I put the shack meter 3ft away and run a bunch of comparisons with music movies test tones. Both measure the same smile.gif

So your claim is wrong. I'm not saying they are 100db speakers but I am saying they measure the same as the heritage line. In terms of how they compare to what they are rated.
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post #18 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 06:38 AM
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I'm not saying they are 100db speakers but I am saying they measure the same as the heritage line.
They do not. If they did they would be truly magical speakers, totally defying the laws of acoustics. Of course, one who has no inkling of the laws of acoustics wouldn't be expected to be aware of that fact. Knowing that the vast majority of their customer base falls into that category is why Klipsch continues to post spurious specs with impunity. 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB with 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m sensitivity from a pair of direct radiating ten inch drivers is flat out impossible. You could get 101dB sensitivity with a 70Hz f3, you can get a 30Hz f3 with 93dB sensitivity. You cannot do both.
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My rf7ii measure right at what my Cornwalls measure. If your right they would be 6-8 db less (being that they are both rated right around 100)That is false they are about even give or take a db it's reay close. I put the shack meter 3ft away and run a bunch of comparisons with music movies test tones. Both measure the same
That's not how speakers are measured. Show us half-space anechoic results. Or ask Klipsch to post charts. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do so. rolleyes.gif

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post #19 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtsmagurts View Post

I currently have bose 301 speakers and a klipsch sw-450 sub connected to a yamaha rx-v375. I mostly listen to music with only 2 channels and it sounds just okay, so would it be worth the money to upgrade to floorstanding speakers like the klipsch rf-82 ii? I was thinking about the klipsch because they are so efficient.

If you have a good sub, floor standing speakers don't offer a lot, sonically.

However your sub is on the meager side, even just for listening to music.

Speaker and room acoustics upgrades are where the serious sound quallity bang for a buck can be obtained.
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post #20 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

They do not. If they did they would be truly magical speakers, totally defying the laws of acoustics. Of course, one who has no inkling of the laws of acoustics wouldn't be expected to be aware of that fact. Knowing that the vast majority of their customer base falls into that category is why Klipsch continues to post spurious specs with impunity. 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB with 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m sensitivity from a pair of direct radiating ten inch drivers is flat out impossible. You could get 101dB sensitivity with a 70Hz f3, you can get a 30Hz f3 with 93dB sensitivity. You cannot do both.
That's not how speakers are measured. Show us half-space anechoic results. Or ask Klipsch to post charts. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do so. rolleyes.gif

If you look at the stats bill it never says 101db at 30-24khz. The two stats are in different places. So as far as anyone one knows they measure it at 4khz or something. But regardless the reference 7s and the Cornwalls measure the same in real world use is my only point.

I'm not going to argue what they rate because I don't have the tools. But I do have the tools to measure heritage vs reference and the. 7s and Cornwalls measure the same.

Most company's inflate specs or mislead with how they display them ( it is sales after all) So it should not be a big surprise to anyone. Look at def tech subs as one example. Or every avr on the planet.

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post #21 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

If you look at the stats bill it never says 101db at 30-24khz. .
I copied that from the Klipsch website, on the product spec page, printed right above one another.
Quote:
Most company's inflate specs or mislead with how they display them ( it is sales after all) So it should not be a big surprise to anyone. Look at def tech subs as one example. Or every avr on the planet.
That doesn't make it excusable, or a practice that should be defended. I wonder how it would be received on a car forum if Ford claimed that their 5 passenger 6 cylinder gasoline powered Fusion goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds and gets 100MPG? rolleyes.gif
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post #22 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I copied that from the Klipsch website, on the product spec page, printed right above one another.
That doesn't make it excusable, or a practice that should be defended. I wonder how it would be received on a car forum if Ford claimed that their 5 passenger 6 cylinder gasoline powered Fusion goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds and gets 100MPG? rolleyes.gif

I guess your missing my point. The reference and heritage measure the same. You said they don't . Thats my only argument here biggrin.gif

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
SENSITIVITY: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m
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It does not say the sensitivity is rated at 30-24khz. Your just assuming thats what it means. Just like an avr that says 150 watts x7. I would guess they measure 101 at something but probably not 30-24khz. All the above stats say is the speaker can do 30hz-24khz at +-3db. The 101db does not show the whole formula so who knows what it really is.

But the way i read it i see no lies as you say.

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post #23 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 01:27 PM
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Look at these measurements. The red line is an on axis measurement the others are not important for this discussion. Sensitivity should be measured full range at 1w/2.83v at 1m. Measuring in room is not accurate. As to why the Cornwalls measure the same, I don't know I haven't looked up any reviews for them.

Some towers do have benefits over bookshelf speakers however that is case by case. For example if the bookshelf speaker struggles to produce frequencies below 100hz with relatively low distortion then towers make sense. If e bookshelf speaker can integrate well with a subwoofer then going to towers doesn't really make sense, IMO.

I would look for bookshelves that can reach 60hz or so with acceptable distortion then get one or 2 good subs depending on the room. Maybe look at a HSU Vtf 15h for $850 and put the remaining 600-700 into good bookshelves.
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post #24 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


I wonder how it would be received on a car forum if Ford claimed that their 5 passenger 6 cylinder gasoline powered Fusion goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds and gets 100MPG? rolleyes.gif


I want that car!!!!............on second thought, make it a Honda Accord with those specs.................
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post #25 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
SENSITIVITY: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m
It does not say the sensitivity is rated at 30-24khz.
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB SENSITIVITY 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m says exactly that.
Quote:
The 101db does not show the whole formula so who knows what it really is.
The operative term is BS. That's exactly what Paul Klipsch would have called it, and if anyone tried the specsmanship that Klipsch engages in today when he was in charge they'd have been unceremoniously shown the road. This, however, reveals the truth:


Sensitivity is 92dB.

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post #26 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

FREQUENCY RESPONSE 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB SENSITIVITY 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m says exactly that.
The operative term is BS. That's exactly what Paul Klipsch would have called it, and if anyone tried the specsmanship that Klipsch engages in today when he was in charge they'd have been unceremoniously shown the road. This, however, reveals the truth:


Sensitivity is 92dB.

Then the cornwalls are 92db also. And that was my point, You said the heritage speakers stats are right. The corns are rated at 34-20khz and 102db. And they were built and spec by paul klipch. Your guessing is wrong to this point.

And i have seen charts that say the 7s are in the 98 range. Thats just one mans measurement. If his stats said they where 100 you would call his charts bs.

We both know bill your only agreeing with those stats because it supports your side. If it didn't you would tare them apart and say they mean nothing,. Like you do so often. You would say we have no proof of how the speaker is being measured. If its outside or in a corner or if the mic is 1ft away or 10ft away . And on and on

I love how people can dispute everything people say tell someone says something they agree with. Then all of a sudden said person knows what they are talking about. Very funny stuff. biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 04:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

FREQUENCY RESPONSE 30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB SENSITIVITY 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m says exactly that.

The operative term is BS. That's exactly what Paul Klipsch would have called it, and if anyone tried the specsmanship that Klipsch engages in today when he was in charge they'd have been unceremoniously shown the road.

@Bill Fitzmaurice, it might be apocryphal, but didn't PK wear a "BULLSH!T" button on the underside of his suit coat lapel that he would theatrically flash at the BS artist when his BS detector went off? cool.gifbiggrin.gif

@turtsmagurts, here's another example similar to the speaker you are considering that shows this "gilding the lily" with respect to sensitivity of its consumer lines isn't a recent thing: Klipsch RF-83. The 6dB disparity below may not seem like much of a big deal, but it means that on average the RF-83 will actually require 4 times the power to play at a given volume level than is claimed in the specifications.


If you want genuine high sensitivity speakers look to the likes of JTR Speakers, Pi Speakers, Geddes Loudspeakers and some excellent AIY/DIY options.
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post #28 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

They do not. If they did they would be truly magical speakers, totally defying the laws of acoustics. Of course, one who has no inkling of the laws of acoustics wouldn't be expected to be aware of that fact.
All I can think of is the legions of people who have posted: If you knew anything about aerodynamics, you would know that bees cannot fly. biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

So your claim is wrong. I'm not saying they are 100db speakers but I am saying they measure the same as the heritage line. In terms of how they compare to what they are rated.
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

30Hz-24KHz ± 3dB with 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m sensitivity from a pair of direct radiating ten inch drivers is flat out impossible.
Hacking a straw man Bill. He expressly stated that he was not claiming 100db and here you are telling him he's wrong to claim 101db.
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post #30 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

Measuring in room is not accurate.
Could you tell me which case would cause one speaker to suddenly become more (or less) efficient while another speaker did not when they were both in the same room?
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Some towers do have benefits over bookshelf speakers however that is case by case.
Very true.
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