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post #1 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi all -

So about a year ago I leapt before I looked and picked up a Klipsch Icon set from Best Buy (yeah, I know). It was an impulse purchase and while they've been pretty good, I want to make a good LONG TERM investment in my home theater setup. I've looked at a local shop and wanted to get input from the more experienced folks:

My current system looks like this:
FL/FR: Klipsch Icon KF-28
C: Klipsch Icon KC-25
SR/SL: Klipsch Icon KS-14
Sub: Velodyne 10
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR809

Option 1: PSB Alpha 7.1 setup:
FL/FR: Alpha T-1
C: Alpha C-1
SR/SL: Alpha B-1
FWR/FWL: Alpha B-1
Sub: Velodyne 10

Cost: $1500

Option 2: PSB Image 7.1
FL/FR: Image T-5
C: Image C-5
SR/SL: Image S-5
FWR/FWL: Image B-5
Sub: Velodyne 10

Cost: $2700

A co-worker also suggested looking at NHT's Absolute line, a 7.1 setup there (keeping the Velodyne) would be around $2200.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

...also, I'd like to try and sell the Klipsch set...Craigslist sounds like a recipe for taking a bath (a Pioneer 5 speaker set I had sat unsold for months at $300). Suggestions on where I might be able to sell them?

Thanks in advance all,

Mike
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post #2 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 03:03 PM
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My advice would be to skip the tower speakers. For the front stage, use bookshelf speakers. If you can, even use a bookshelf speaker for the center and surround speakers. The performance ideal is matching speakers all around, and it also happens to be cheaper. Also I would dump the Velodyne. Not a great sub for a serious home theater. I would go with dual subs from manufacture direct sub makers. My choices for inexpensive bang-for-the-buck subs would be either the Rythmik LV12r, the Hsu VTF2 mk4, or some SVS PB12 NSDs.

The reason to go with bookshelf speakers over tower speakers is, if you are using subs, the tower's chief advantage of bass extension is lost. At that point you are paying a lot of money for capability that you will never use, so it's mostly pointless. Let the subs deal with bass, they can do so far better than tower speakers. I also advise to go with dual subs because they can give you a more even bass sound throughout the room, and duals can also make localization much less of an issue. There are big performance gains to dual (or more) sub systems, although it does take some care in setup and placement to fully realize those gains.
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post #3 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 03:13 PM
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What exactly are you trying to improve in the system? What's your budget and listening habits?

Looking at your current setup I would think about spending some or most of the upgrade budget on the sub. I have a Velodyne vx-11 which I think is almost the same as the velodyne 10 you listed ( could be wrong here). I also have an older SVS pb10-nsd which is really similar to the current pb-1000 which goes for around 500 today. The delta in the sub performance is HUGE. This is probably highest impact to the system you can make. Dual sub's or a single high performing sub can really reinvigorate your setup for music and ht. SVS, hsu, PSA, rythmik are all well respected internet direct companies where you'll get a lot for your dollar.
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post #4 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 03:16 PM
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What don't you like about you current setup? It seems this is for mainly movie/TV. Correct?

If so, you won't gain much. The biggest improvement you can make to your current setup for HT use would be to upgrade your sub to one or even two really good subs depending on your room size.

SVS, PSA, HSU, Rythmik are the popular choices.

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post #5 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks guys!

You're correct, 99% of the time the system is being used for HT rather than music. The current system is good...better now that I re-ran the Audyssey setup. The bass response I'm getting now is good and, frankly, with a 15 month-old there are a couple of other concerns: bass-related wake-ups and placing another 'mysterious box' on the floor that she may decide to go play with. :-o

The goal is to 'fill in' the sound a little better. The front soundstage seems relatively good but I recently had to move the KS-14s from their position as front-wides to replace a pair of Polk FXiA4's that were in the surround position. My daughter knocked over one of the FXiA4's off of it's stand and one of the connections sheared when it made its crash to earth and I don't have the same amount of surround that I'd gotten used to. Rather than getting upset, I looked at it as an opportunity to upgrade. Giving it further thought, dropping a bunch o' cash on speakers when she's still in the "investigative toddler" phase may not be the greatest of ideas. :-o

Any ideas about getting the surround oomph back? Maybe move the KS-14s back to Front Wides and get Bookshelf speakers for the surrounds?

Thanks,

Mike
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post #6 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon View Post

Thanks guys!

You're correct, 99% of the time the system is being used for HT rather than music. The current system is good...better now that I re-ran the Audyssey setup. The bass response I'm getting now is good and, frankly, with a 15 month-old there are a couple of other concerns: bass-related wake-ups and placing another 'mysterious box' on the floor that she may decide to go play with. :-o

The goal is to 'fill in' the sound a little better. The front soundstage seems relatively good but I recently had to move the KS-14s from their position as front-wides to replace a pair of Polk FXiA4's that were in the surround position. My daughter knocked over one of the FXiA4's off of it's stand and one of the connections sheared when it made its crash to earth and I don't have the same amount of surround that I'd gotten used to. Rather than getting upset, I looked at it as an opportunity to upgrade. Giving it further thought, dropping a bunch o' cash on speakers when she's still in the "investigative toddler" phase may not be the greatest of ideas. :-o

Any ideas about getting the surround oomph back? Maybe move the KS-14s back to Front Wides and get Bookshelf speakers for the surrounds?

Thanks,

Mike

Fixing the one broken FXiA4 would be the best and least expensive choice. wink.gif

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post #7 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 10:15 PM
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I just went from horn loaded towers to NHT classic 3 and ThreeC center and realized I've been missing out on alot of detail. My room is 20x18 and about 3500 cubic feet, so it's a fairly large. They fill the room just as loud as my towers but I do have to turn my receiver up quite a bit to achieve the dynamic sound. Also have (2) Outlaw LFM-1EX subs.

Living Room
*NHT ThreeC *NHT Classic Three's (4) *Denon 3313ci *Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX (2)

Game Room
*NHT Absolute Tower (2) *Denon E300
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post #8 of 43 Old 12-31-2013, 11:47 PM
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If you want to upgrade, you can get some more so-called better oomph

However, if you want to save - get a better sub and sell the velodyne -
the wide speakers can only give you so much

If you want to spend - the PSB Image line would be a nice step up.

However, there are other speaker line options.

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post #9 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon View Post

Thanks guys!

You're correct, 99% of the time the system is being used for HT rather than music. The current system is good...better now that I re-ran the Audyssey setup. The bass response I'm getting now is good and, frankly, with a 15 month-old there are a couple of other concerns: bass-related wake-ups and placing another 'mysterious box' on the floor that she may decide to go play with. :-o

The goal is to 'fill in' the sound a little better. The front soundstage seems relatively good but I recently had to move the KS-14s from their position as front-wides to replace a pair of Polk FXiA4's that were in the surround position. My daughter knocked over one of the FXiA4's off of it's stand and one of the connections sheared when it made its crash to earth and I don't have the same amount of surround that I'd gotten used to. Rather than getting upset, I looked at it as an opportunity to upgrade. Giving it further thought, dropping a bunch o' cash on speakers when she's still in the "investigative toddler" phase may not be the greatest of ideas. :-o

Any ideas about getting the surround oomph back? Maybe move the KS-14s back to Front Wides and get Bookshelf speakers for the surrounds?

Thanks,

Mike
Grab a used rc-62. That will wake up your system. The Icon line has no good center speaker imo

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post #10 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 01:34 AM
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And a sub upgrade is great advise.

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post #11 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Reference_head -

a couple of questions. While I don't disagree that the Icon KC-25 is weak, I'm wondering how changing the center channel helps fill in the surround effect? I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is very thin on these speakers so I'd love to understand better.

Second: How well will the Reference series speakers timbre match the Icons? Due to how I've got the speakers setup in my TV stand, I think I'd have to use a RF-52..the RF-62 wouldn't fit in the shelf!
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post #12 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:37 AM
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Assuming by your suggestions that your budget is about 2k?
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post #13 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Also -

I was looking at the SVS PC12 NSD...it's small footprint might minimize the chances of little hands playing with it, especially if I can continue to hide it in a corner. Thoughts?
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post #14 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ratm, yes, although this goes down a little easier if I can do it a couple of pieces at a time. Even better if at least some of the components are available through Amazon as I have a fairly large line of credit with them.
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post #15 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon View Post

How well will the Reference series speakers timbre match the Icons? Due to how I've got the speakers setup in my TV stand, I think I'd have to use a RF-52..the RF-62 wouldn't fit in the shelf!

Spreading the front left and right out more will make a difference in the front stage - speakers need room to breathe
The Reference and Icon will not timbre match up front - the Reference will also give you a better soundstage.

A SVS sub will make a big difference

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post #16 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:51 AM
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The center can help your system breath. All your speakers will sound better with a better center speaker. I think you would be surprised how much louder and clearer your system will sound with a nice center speaker.

As far as timbre goes your right they don't match. But imo a better speaker will out weigh a much lesser speaker that might match.

The reference line towers would be better than what you have and match the rc62 much better. But if you start with a used 62 and really like it. Then you can look for a good deal on the rf62 or something down the rd. and if it's not what your looking for you can sell it for what you paid for it smile.gif.

Zero risk

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post #17 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 10:33 AM
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L/R : ascend cmt 340se $600
Center: ascend cmt 340se $300
Sub: rythmik lv12r $600

Then use your klipsch for surround and back. Under budget and IMO a noticeable upgrade!
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Javk...I'll take a look at the Ascends. My room layout may be contributing to the lack of surround as well. The wall behind my seating area is probably 15' away. I'll try and draw something up.
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post #19 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javk View Post

L/R : ascend cmt 340se $600
Center: ascend cmt 340se $300
Sub: rythmik lv12r $600

Then use your klipsch for surround and back. Under budget and IMO a noticeable upgrade!

Upgrading or changing the main set of speakers would at best be a marginal difference. Upgrading the sub would be a major difference. The sub is where the OP should spend the money if he's looking for a better HT experience.

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post #20 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 04:48 PM
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You are right, my bad. I missed that it was 99% ht my first read through. Also I thought the front klipsch were the bookshelf not the floorstanders, in that case yeah you probably wouldn't notice much with the 340s, might even be lower spl. Now the sierra towers and horizon center....smile.gif but that wouldn't leave anything left over.

So I think I agree with kini62, 2x subs might be the way to go especially given your room sounds pretty large.
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post #21 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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forgive me because I still don't understand this: while the sub may be older and less efficient, I'm still not understanding how replacing the sub (or the front or center speakers) provides more surround immersion?
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post #22 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
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forgive me because I still don't understand this: while the sub may be older and less efficient, I'm still not understanding how replacing the sub (or the front or center speakers) provides more surround immersion?

Because all speakers and subs are not alike - good built subs with a larger driver and better amp, will
have better radiation and spl (sound pressure level) - better speakers, can have better resolution and
better off-axis response - and can give better punch. I will take quality over quanity - also good place-
ment is important.

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post #23 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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zieglj01 -

I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is why replacing front speakers would affect the sound in the rear of the sound field. Yes, the sub I have now is muddy, but how does replacing it improve the surround (rear sound field) performance?
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post #24 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon View Post

zieglj01 -

I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is why replacing front speakers would affect the sound in the rear of the sound field. Yes, the sub I have now is muddy, but how does replacing it improve the surround (rear sound field) performance?

My room layout may be contributing to the lack of surround as well. The wall behind my seating area is probably 15' away. I'll try and draw something up.

If your rear speakers are 15 ft back - then that is one big problem

Also, you want the frequencies to blend with the sub

Are you set-up anything near like what is pictured here?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qmd5WH07KZ5/learn/learningcenter/home/speaker_placement.html

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post #25 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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zieglj01 -

this picture is representative of my speaker setup with the exception of the sub, which is further left of the FL speaker in a corner:



When I was talking about 15', I was referring to the nearest wall behind the speakers, not the physical placement. The room is an 'open concept' living room/kitchen/dining room. I presume that I would have greater reflection and more sound from the rear speakers if there was a wall closer behind my viewing area.
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post #26 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Let me try and add a bit more clarity on my room setup based upon the picture above.

1.) there's an additional couch along the left side and a chair along the right. For this reason, the fronts are not toed-in as in the picture, they fire straight out.

2.) The surrounds are at my 3 and 9 o'clock from the primary viewing position.

3.) There is an open space directly behind the primary viewing position that is the Kitchen and Dining room. Here is a floorplan from the builder of my home:



the TV sits against the wall between the living room and the master bedroom, roughly centered along the wall. My primary viewing area sits approximately 12 feet from the wall at the separation between the living and dining areas of the room.

Does that clarify things any?
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post #27 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 08:42 PM
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You already stated that you lost part of your surround stage - when one of the speakers fell.
Need to get it fixed or buy another pair. Now while it may sound somewhat strange to you,
getting a bigger more powerful sub will help, and make a difference.

Now for me, I would prefer that my side and rear speakers be the same speaker, for a more
seamless blend.

Also, if you say that you are losing some surround depth - then turn them up some more.

When you are ready to spend, there are other options - with more range.

There will be some limitations due to your open space - however, not the end of the world.

Also, try placing some Blu-tack under your speakers, when placing them on stands.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
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post #28 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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zieglj01 -

apologies, I must not have been clear. Originally, I'd had a pair of Polk FXiA4's in the Surround L/R positions and the KS-14's as Front-wide speakers (on top of the KF-28's and angled to reflect into the side walls and back into the primary listening positions). When the FXiA4 fell, I moved the KS-14s into their positions and have yet to replace the Front Wide speakers.

I'd considered putting some ceiling mount speakers in as Surround Rears, but have been hesitant to do so because there's a slight chance I may move my tv further down the wall, either into the corner at the top-left of the living room in the floorplan, or into the first corner at the bottom left. Until I make an absolutely final decision about where my tv will sit, cutting into the ceiling for a speaker would be a pretty bad idea. I'm hesitant to get a pair of bookshelf speakers for the task.

Just for clarification, I am putting some serious thought into getting one of the HSU VTF2 subs. As I watched some movies with my family today, I tried to focus on the sound out of the Impact 10 sub. It's pretty muddy and seems to be too rumbly, rather than simply accentuating the sound from the mains. I've also noticed that the center is weak, as Reference_head suggested. I'm not sure how much I may be affecting it's performance by having it sit inside the TV console but I have a feeling I'll be doing some replacing sooner rather than later.
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post #29 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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thoughts about the suitability of the Klipsch RC-42 II as a replacement for the KC-25? My TV console limits the space available for the center and the RC-42 will fit. If not the RC-42, suggestions on an alternative that will fit into a 19"x8" area?

Thanks,

Mike
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post #30 of 43 Old 01-01-2014, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MJMcMahon View Post

thoughts about the suitability of the Klipsch RC-42 II as a replacement for the KC-25? My TV console limits the space available for the center and the RC-42 will fit. If not the RC-42, suggestions on an alternative that will fit into a 19"x8" area?

Thanks,Mike

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