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post #91 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 08:33 PM
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I was merely pointing out that Bose employs psychoacoustics
Not really. They do employ signal processing, but that's not the same thing, nor is it unique to Bose by any means. What they mainly practice is psychology, the power of suggestion to be specific, via extensive marketing to convince the average person that their products sound good and represent a good value.

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post #92 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:15 PM
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I was merely pointing out that Bose employs psychoacoustics

How do you know that? Is that what they tell you in their marketing documents? Because that could mean they changed the frequency response a little bit and claimed that. Or is there outside evidence to confirm that psychoacoustics are being used effectively with the acoustimass speakers to provide significant enhancement?

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post #93 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:19 PM
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How do you know that? Is that what they tell you in their marketing documents? Because that could mean they changed the frequency response a little bit and claimed that. Or is there outside evidence to confirm that psychoacoustics are being used effectively with the acoustimass speakers to provide significant enhancement?


I don't know that it's "effective", like I said originally, I haven't heard an AM10 in a long time. You're welcome to go have a listen yourself. http://youtu.be/H-iCZElJ8m0 is a sine sweep from 20 Hz-20 kHz. Play in HD to avoid the SD audio compression that cuts out at 16 kHz.

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post #94 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:21 PM
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I don't know that it's "effective", like I said originally, I haven't heard an AM10 in a long time. You're welcome to go have a listen yourself. http://youtu.be/H-iCZElJ8m0 is a sine sweep from 20 Hz-20 kHz. Play in HD to avoid the SD audio compression that cuts out at 16 kHz.

Yeah. Like most AVS members, not interested. LOL

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post #95 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:28 PM
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Amusing that the OP was branded a Bose troll, but the rest of you managed 4 pages of snark. It's fine to not be impressed with Bose speakers, I'm making no claims either way, I was just pointing out the design of the system does not lend itself to single speaker spec testing. The most damaging claim on the links posted was that there is a 80 Hz frequency gap between the satellites and the bass module when tested individually. I am not claiming this is not so, but merely hypothesizing that because of their psychoacoustical roots, you are not likely to experience this gap when listening to the entire system. I offered a simple test. I'll give it a try next time I encounter the system, and then I'll know. You do what you choose.

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post #96 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by epepin View Post

I was merely pointing out that Bose employs psychoacoustics, which is a real field of physics, to coordinate their speaker arrays and that to evaluate a single speaker apart from that array is not respecting the design of the system. You're welcome to go plug your iPhone in at Best Buy and play a YouTube video that covers the frequencies and see how many are missing,

Good Idea with the YouTube test tone, and thank you contributing to the topic.

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post #97 of 126 Old 06-08-2014, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by epepin View Post

Amusing that the OP was branded a Bose troll, but the rest of you managed 4 pages of snark. It's fine to not be impressed with Bose speakers, I'm making no claims either way, I was just pointing out the design of the system does not lend itself to single speaker spec testing. The most damaging claim on the links posted was that there is a 80 Hz frequency gap between the satellites and the bass module when tested individually. I am not claiming this is not so, but merely hypothesizing that because of their psychoacoustical roots, you are not likely to experience this gap when listening to the entire system. I offered a simple test. I'll give it a try next time I encounter the system, and then I'll know. You do what you choose.

You did make a claim. And to repeat my question, what evidence do you have that there is any beneficial psychoacoustical processing going on with the Acoustimass? Better might be to reflect upon how you are buying into the Bose brand image in speculating on that.

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post #98 of 126 Old 06-09-2014, 06:33 AM
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The Bose tests I have seen are of the AM system, not a single speaker and there are several gaps. Low freq, absent (50hz and below)...gap between 110-130hz...and a very telling dip early at the high end.
Measurements arent everything, but they sure tell you this system has the potential to sound bad.

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post #99 of 126 Old 06-09-2014, 07:35 AM
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Bose does a couple "magic tricks" where they use bipoles (and sometimes dipoles) and subwoofers to create a sound that is surprising from what you see - big sound from small speakers. Then, they market those surprises as advanced technology. I suspect the lack of highs actually enhances the magic trick, because it makes the speakers harder to localize. The trick is impressive.

The only problem is that the surprising big sound is really low fidelity for the price, and side by side, there are similarly priced high fidelity speakers that will blow them away. It's a shame to see people waste their money on tricks.

If your priority is small speakers over quality and you don't want to mess with installing good in-wall speakers, Bose is is a reasonable choice.
Another reasonable choice along those lines is to simply add a subwoofer to your flatscreen.

If your priority is sound quality over speaker size, Bose is not a good choice.
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post #100 of 126 Old 06-09-2014, 08:53 AM
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The benefits of the Bose Acoustimass 10 are generally it's disadvantage when compared to most loudspeaker system larger than 5 Venti Starbucks Coffees and a overhead fitting carry-on. Intelligent consumers or those who what full frequency and high sound pressure levels, these are not going to meet their expectations. Every design is full of compromises and constraints.

Technical consumers are very demanding, this site is a great place to learn. Whats even better, if you are so inclined ,is to take classes or become involved in the industry. Interestingly, just the other day I demo'd a pair of McIntosh XR50 Bookshelf speakers. The XR50's have low, 81dB/W/M Sensitivity and the manufacturer claims 40Hz to 40Khz with a 300 Watt power rating. Shockingly, with a 75 Watt Per Channel Tube amp, the XR50's were cranking out the tunes and filling the large display room with honest full range music. They do not disappoint, even at $4,000 MSRP a pair.

Intelligent consumers who want a surround sound system that fits any decor & wife/spouse acceptance factor this is it.
Because of their size consumers must be willing to compromise to what it takes to get this small.

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post #101 of 126 Old 06-09-2014, 09:14 AM
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Intelligent consumers who want a surround sound system that fits any decor & wife/spouse acceptance factor this is it.
Because of their size consumers must be willing to compromise to what it takes to get this small.

Actually, my choice for that consumer would be a Cambridge Minx or Orb Audio setup. IMO, better price/performance value for the money.

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post #102 of 126 Old 06-09-2014, 09:16 AM
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^ Great! I think they are awesome too!

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post #103 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 09:34 PM
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Wow - I just read this thread and now I am confused. Was also considering AM10 speakers. Room is about 30 x 25 x 9' but focus area is 20 x 15.


Small size is important and on stands. Can't use bookcase speakers. Floor models would work better. I have several old sets of speakers.


I have from the 1960s Wharfdale W60s and W70s which haven't been used in years - but these are likely so outdated - they are more like furniture.


I find a Bose Wave Radio to be good sound for piano/violin music when hooked up to cable soundscapes channel.


Still somewhat confused by all the posts above.


Small size and appearance (like cube on floor stand) is important.
Price not a concern - but not looking for a $3K+ type system.


Should I be considering TV vendor home theater systems instead? Like Samsung or Sony?


I am open to any system - but small size is important.


Have been browsing for 9 years here, but this is my first post.
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post #104 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 10:03 PM
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Wow - I just read this thread and now I am confused. Was also considering AM10 speakers. Room is about 30 x 25 x 9' but focus area is 20 x 15.


Small size is important and on stands. Can't use bookcase speakers. Floor models would work better. I have several old sets of speakers.


I have from the 1960s Wharfdale W60s and W70s which haven't been used in years - but these are likely so outdated - they are more like furniture.


I find a Bose Wave Radio to be good sound for piano/violin music when hooked up to cable soundscapes channel.


Still somewhat confused by all the posts above.


Small size and appearance (like cube on floor stand) is important.
Price not a concern - but not looking for a $3K+ type system.


Should I be considering TV vendor home theater systems instead? Like Samsung or Sony?


I am open to any system - but small size is important.


Have been browsing for 9 years here, but this is my first post.
Tbf you can pick up a boston acoustics soundware xs se or equivalent along with a a/v receiver for less money and better sound quality than the am 10.

Plus you can upgrade speakers on it too later if you get the bug like I did
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post #105 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 10:27 PM
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sonyva: From a subwoofer standpoint, your room size of 6,750 cu. ft. is considered "extreme" (anything over 5,000 cu. ft.). So the first question I must ask is what are you after? Do you want to just have a little background music going on? Do you just want to enhance the TV sound a little bit? Are you looking for a surround system for movie and LFE enjoyment? What are your goals?

You say that price isn't a concern, but to fill that size area with great sound for music and realistic sound for movies won't be cheap. And it absolutely won't be small. Simple equations: small speakers = small sound and big speakers = big sound. Now there is a way to get somewhere in the middle of those two, but it will still be costly. And just a friendly reminder, bookshelf speakers are misnamed. They need to be mounted on stands and never in bookshelves.

I'm not a Bose basher. Matter-of-fact I use to own the Bose 901s back in the early 70s and enjoyed a friend's 601s back then as well. But what I will say is that there are better offerings than what Bose can now deliver. Bose has changed from the 60s, 70s and 80s, and not for the better. They are now more into slick and plastic. However, if that is what you are after, then by all means buy what you feel will fit your needs. After all, it is you that needs to be happy with your purchase, not I or anyone else here.
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post #106 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 10:44 PM
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sonyva: From a subwoofer standpoint, your room size of 6,750 cu. ft. is considered "extreme" (anything over 5,000 cu. ft.). So the first question I must ask is what are you after? Do you want to just have a little background music going on? Do you just want to enhance the TV sound a little bit? Are you looking for a surround system for movie and LFE enjoyment? What are your goals?

You say that price isn't a concern, but to fill that size area with great sound for music and realistic sound for movies won't be cheap. And it absolutely won't be small. Simple equations: small speakers = small sound and big speakers = big sound. Now there is a way to get somewhere in the middle of those two, but it will still be costly. And just a friendly reminder, bookshelf speakers are misnamed. They need to be mounted on stands and never in bookshelves.

I'm not a Bose basher. Matter-of-fact I use to own the Bose 901s back in the early 70s and enjoyed a friend's 601s back then as well. But what I will say is that there are better offerings than what Bose can now deliver. Bose has changed from the 60s, 70s and 80s, and not for the better. They are now more into slick and plastic. However, if that is what you are after, then by all means buy what you feel will fit your needs. After all, it is you that needs to be happy with your purchase, not I or anyone else here.

I looking for a basic surround sound 5.1 to improve TV sound (have Samsung 55" 8000 model) and plan to upgrade to a 4K TV in a year. Also want to play background music from Cable TV or Pandora.


Not looking for super loud music, but want good sound when watching a movie.


What about a BA A 2310 HTS Surround Speaker System. package?


Are there any pole floor stands for the A23s? Or best to hang on the wall?


I haven't liked the AM10 needing to connect all speakers to the base speaker. I would prefer the direct connection to the amp.
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post #107 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 10:58 PM
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Tbf you can pick up a boston acoustics soundware xs se or equivalent along with a a/v receiver for less money and better sound quality than the am 10.

Plus you can upgrade speakers on it too later if you get the bug like I did
What receiver would you recommend with the BA Soundware XS SE?


I like the small size.
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post #108 of 126 Old 08-02-2014, 11:55 PM
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What receiver would you recommend with the BA Soundware XS SE?


I like the small size.
I have the onkyo 626 as I got it cheap, the sony str-dn1050 or the yamaha v677 are both meant to be very good.

If your budget can't accommodate that then the midrange 2013 models will probably give you a good deal but won't have hdmi 2.0 for future upgrades for 4k TV.

If you are not interested in 4k TV then you should get a very good deal just now on 2013 models
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post #109 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 12:02 AM
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Complete surround systems or Home Theater in a Box (HTIB) are very common choices. Now I won't say that some of the higher priced versions won't give you fairly decent sound, but they are not much better than a Bose system and many are worse. Plus many of those aren't very expandable and usually come with a weak AVR and notoriously weak subwoofer. The Boston Acoustics you mentioned at $900 will give you barely decent speakers and a subpar sub (they don't supply the AVR). It is much better to purchase these components separately, but again, we are talking a lot more than $900. That way you can get the best components from several different manufacturers.

The most important component is the front stage (left, right and center channel speakers) and they should be timber matched, meaning they should be the same speaker, or at least by the same manufacturer. You will need to mount the front stage speakers on stands (good stands will run you around $100 to $150 a pair). It would be best if the center channel is an identical speaker as the left and right, and mounted at the same height. However, this often can't be done because of the TV. So people will get a short, wide center channel speaker (or place a standard speaker on its side) and place it on a shorter stand and aimed toward the listening position. A good front stage will run you around $900 to $1,000 or so, not including the stands.

The surround speakers are far less important. Whatever brand you are using for the front stage, you can get a smaller cheaper speaker for the surrounds. They don't necessarily need to be from the same manufacturer and are usually mounted on tall stands or on the wall a little bit behind and above you. Decent surrounds will run you around $100 to $200 for the pair, not including stands or wall brackets (should you choose to go that way).

If you do not have an Audio/Video Receiver (AVR) then you need to purchase one. Luckily, there are a lot of pretty good AVRs that one can get for around $300 to $500. I wouldn't worry about the power specs, as long as the AVR manufacturers are speaking the same language. The difference between a 75 watt/channel all channels driven and a 100 watt/channel all channels driven is negligible. It takes twice the power to raise the output just 3 dB. A more efficient speaker would have a larger effect.

Finally, the second most important component of any music or home theater is the subwoofer. Sorry to tell you this, but a room your volume you may be looking at a minimum of $1200 to $1500 (for two subwoofers). There are six really good and reasonably priced I.D. companies that can provide you with very good subwoofers. These are: Hsu, Outlaw, PSA, Reaction Audio, Rythmik and SVS.

You will get a lot of suggestions on which speakers and subwoofers you should choose, and almost all the time they will be excellent choices. Just make sure you have the ability to audition them before buying. On the subwoofer front, all the I.D. companies give you at least a 30-day in-home trial. Some companies charge shipping both ways, some give you free shipping to your home only, and others will give you free shipping both ways during the trial period.

I'm sure you're wondering why such a big price tag. It's because of the volume of your room. If you had just a medium size room (1,500 to 3,000 cu. ft.) we would be talking subs in the $500 each range (and one might suffice). But you have over twice that volume to fill, thus it will take more money to do so. Oh, and one more thing: Get over your addiction to small. It simply will not serve you.
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post #110 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 01:12 AM
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Complete surround systems or Home Theater in a Box (HTIB) are very common choices. Now I won't say that some of the higher priced versions won't give you fairly decent sound, but they are not much better than a Bose system and many are worse. Plus many of those aren't very expandable and usually come with a weak AVR and notoriously weak subwoofer. The Boston Acoustics you mentioned at $900 will give you barely decent speakers and a subpar sub (they don't supply the AVR). It is much better to purchase these components separately, but again, we are talking a lot more than $900. That way you can get the best components from several different manufacturers.

The most important component is the front stage (left, right and center channel speakers) and they should be timber matched, meaning they should be the same speaker, or at least by the same manufacturer. You will need to mount the front stage speakers on stands (good stands will run you around $100 to $150 a pair). It would be best if the center channel is an identical speaker as the left and right, and mounted at the same height. However, this often can't be done because of the TV. So people will get a short, wide center channel speaker (or place a standard speaker on its side) and place it on a shorter stand and aimed toward the listening position. A good front stage will run you around $900 to $1,000 or so, not including the stands.

The surround speakers are far less important. Whatever brand you are using for the front stage, you can get a smaller cheaper speaker for the surrounds. They don't necessarily need to be from the same manufacturer and are usually mounted on tall stands or on the wall a little bit behind and above you. Decent surrounds will run you around $100 to $200 for the pair, not including stands or wall brackets (should you choose to go that way).

If you do not have an Audio/Video Receiver (AVR) then you need to purchase one. Luckily, there are a lot of pretty good AVRs that one can get for around $300 to $500. I wouldn't worry about the power specs, as long as the AVR manufacturers are speaking the same language. The difference between a 75 watt/channel all channels driven and a 100 watt/channel all channels driven is negligible. It takes twice the power to raise the output just 3 dB. A more efficient speaker would have a larger effect.

Finally, the second most important component of any music or home theater is the subwoofer. Sorry to tell you this, but a room your volume you may be looking at a minimum of $1200 to $1500 (for two subwoofers). There are six really good and reasonably priced I.D. companies that can provide you with very good subwoofers. These are: Hsu, Outlaw, PSA, Reaction Audio, Rythmik and SVS.

You will get a lot of suggestions on which speakers and subwoofers you should choose, and almost all the time they will be excellent choices. Just make sure you have the ability to audition them before buying. On the subwoofer front, all the I.D. companies give you at least a 30-day in-home trial. Some companies charge shipping both ways, some give you free shipping to your home only, and others will give you free shipping both ways during the trial period.

I'm sure you're wondering why such a big price tag. It's because of the volume of your room. If you had just a medium size room (1,500 to 3,000 cu. ft.) we would be talking subs in the $500 each range (and one might suffice). But you have over twice that volume to fill, thus it will take more money to do so. Oh, and one more thing: Get over your addiction to small. It simply will not serve you.
You've totally missed the point of my post, yeah if money is no object and you have room to put them in then yeah a full size system is the way to go but I'm sorry to say you also missed the part that the poster liked the small speakers so was giving the poster a second option. I have listened to both systems and can confidently say that the xs se system sounds better and a lot cheaper than the am10. I actually feel my sub does the job for me pretty well and shakes the room nicely.

The beauty of the way I've done it is that I have a system I can upgrade as finances allow, something you struggle to do with the am10
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post #111 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 01:31 AM
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You've totally missed the point of my post, yeah if money is no object and you have room to put them in then yeah a full size system is the way to go but I'm sorry to say you also missed the part that the poster liked the small speakers so was giving the poster a second option. I have listened to both systems and can confidently say that the xs se system sounds better and a lot cheaper than the am10. I actually feel my sub does the job for me pretty well and shakes the room nicely.
It's great that you like your sub.

However, an 8" 100 watt subwoofer like your Soundwave is not going to be shaking anything in a 6700 cubic foot room like the OP has unless he's sitting almost directly on top of it. Literally. To be effective at all, it would need to be located nearfield of the listening position which is no more than about 3 feet away.

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post #112 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
It's great that you like your sub.

However, an 8" 100 watt subwoofer like your Soundwave is not going to be shaking anything in a 6700 cubic foot room like the OP has unless he's sitting almost directly on top of it. Literally. To be effective at all, it would need to be located nearfield of the listening position which is no more than about 3 feet away.
Ok I get that but isn't the point of starting out small is so that you can grow? What hifi gave good reviews of the xs speakers and sub. I sit 10 foot away and I still feel the bounce off it and can't even get passed half of what my av receiver puts out coz it's that loud lol
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post #113 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve119 View Post
Ok I get that but isn't the point of starting out small is so that you can grow? What hifi gave good reviews of the xs speakers and sub. I sit 10 foot away and I still feel the bounce off it and can't even get passed half of what my av receiver puts out coz it's that loud lol
What size is your room, Steve? It's not 6700 cubic ft, is it? Room size GREATLY impacts sub performance.

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post #114 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
What size is your room, Steve? It's not 6700 cubic ft, is it? Room size GREATLY impacts sub performance.
I would say 1/2 of that lol. It's not a huge room but get good acoustics.

Just felt that I should mention that if the op was hell bent on getting a system with cube speakers then to offer a still better alternative solution than the bose system that's all lol

(And to be fair my LR speakers are a25 bookshelves rather than the cubes lol)
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post #115 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve119 View Post
I would say 1/2 of that lol. It's not a huge room but get good acoustics.

Just felt that I should mention that if the op was hell bent on getting a system with cube speakers then to offer a still better alternative solution than the bose system that's all lol

(And to be fair my LR speakers are a25 bookshelves rather than the cubes lol)
Well, both your use of the A25 and the size of your room would make a big difference in comparison to how the Soundware set would sound to him. LOL

Before I'd take either the Soundware or Bose in that size room, I'd skip them both and just get a good (bigger) pair of speakers.

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post #116 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve119 View Post
You've totally missed the point of my post, yeah if money is no object and you have room to put them in then yeah a full size system is the way to go but I'm sorry to say you also missed the part that the poster liked the small speakers so was giving the poster a second option. I have listened to both systems and can confidently say that the xs se system sounds better and a lot cheaper than the am10. I actually feel my sub does the job for me pretty well and shakes the room nicely.

The beauty of the way I've done it is that I have a system I can upgrade as finances allow, something you struggle to do with the am10
I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to sonyva. Yeah, I probably should have quoted his post, but I would assume most people would understand that fact since sonyva talked about a 6,750 cu.ft. room and asked "me" about the Boston Acoustics. The O.P. also indicated that while price wasn't a concern, he wasn't looking to spend 3 grand or more on a system. So, in actuality, you missed the point. But you go ahead and tell the O.P. how wonderful that Boston Acoustics will play in his cathedral.

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post #117 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 11:37 AM
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To be more exact - the room is more like 27 x 25 x 9. This is both the living room and dining room but one big open room. In addition (not included) is a open staircase which is open to ceiling of the 2nd floor - plus open pass through to the kitchen which is 25 x 20. So if the speakers are focused in a area say 25 x 16 x 9 that would be only 3600 - but then again the is no wall separating the living/dining.


I do like the suggestion on the BA speakers with the direct connection to the receiver and I like the Onkyo 636 (with HDMI-2 for 4K) and expansion to 7.1. Plus one can upgrade the speakers later. I can always move the smaller speakers to the family room in the kitchen (20 x14) - but open to kitchen itself (so double), or move to a bedroom 19 x14 x (8 to 11 high) or downstairs family room 20 x 14. So I have future options.


I currently watch movies out of the Samsung Ultra-thin 8000 internal speakers in this large room and the sound is not bad. So I am assuming anything else would be an improvement.


Looks like the Special Edition version of the Soundware XS is discontinued, but I believe that the only difference is the SE was glossy black versus flat black or white for the standard XS.

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post #118 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 11:59 AM
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sonyva: An untuned harmonica may be better than the average TV speakers on a flat screen . So if that's what you are listening at now, ANY system will be better than what you have, including the Bose. I didn't realize you also had an open area to the kitchen. For speakers, yes, you should be able to get decent sound at your listening position. Unfortunately, the subwoofer sees the entire open area including large pass through areas. In other words, a sub tries to fill that entire space of over 11,000 cu. ft. However, if you are all set to get the Boston Acoustics, by all means do so. Do what cel suggested and place the sub near-field to the listening position. The Boston Acoustics is a relatively inexpensive system, and let's face it, nothing short of a couple of JTR Orbit Shifters can fill that vast volume. For low-level playing it may work out for you just fine. And as I stated, it is you that needs to be happy with your purchase, not I.

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post #119 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sonyva View Post
I currently watch movies out of the Samsung Ultra-thin 8000 internal speakers in this large room and the sound is not bad. So I am assuming anything else would be an improvement.
Can you tell us the maximum size (dimensions) speaker you could go with? It really is beneficial to go with something larger than the tiny cubes if you can manage it in your room. The small cube speakers like that are far from the best bang for you buck.

Same with the subwoofer size. What's the biggest you can manage for that? No need for the sub to match the speaker brand.

If you are absolutely determined to go with small cube sized speakers, look also into the Orb and Cambridge Minx. But I definitely recommend going larger if you can. Even something small like these Super Zeros would be a better choice, IMO.

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post #120 of 126 Old 08-03-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to sonyva. Yeah, I probably should have quoted his post, but I would assume most people would understand that fact since sonyva talked about a 6,750 cu.ft. room and asked "me" about the Boston Acoustics. The O.P. also indicated that while price wasn't a concern, he wasn't looking to spend 3 grand or more on a system. So, in actuality, you missed the point. But you go ahead and and tell the O.P. how wonderful that Boston Acoustics will play in his cathedral.
Point taken over the response, however this is a public forum so hate to say it but anyone can join the debate, and have different opinions.

No offence but I can only go on my own experiences on what I have used and yeah I didn't quite look at the size which to be fair I maybe should of.

That said there was no need to be so narky, I did make a mince of the post I put up and I accept that and I apologise however Some people want hidden speakers and I can see why. I want 12ft speakers all round in my room but my layout only allow for front floorstanders at best and Discrete surrounds. Sounds like the op wants something similar so I thought why not offer an alternative to the bose?

The point is conceded about the sub but as I've said, nice to be able to slowly build on what you have.

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