January 18th Loudspeaker GTG results thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Yeah, those differences I am somewhat familiar with due to the MF...I was trying to make sense of what may be different in the HF, but what you say makes sense. I think the above referenced statement from Tom addresses it....I am one of the ones who is hung up on the idea that the 4594 is some magic CD....its' great, but like you mention, it may not be the "world beater" and is tough to get right.
I am very crazy, I wouldn't argue with you for a minute..but maybe not, they say that crazy people don't know they're crazy biggrin.gif
Oh they are still being worked on, no doubt about it. I want to get the duals up and running this weekend if I can and let em' rip for a bit, chat with Matt, make some adjustments etc. I still think the quads will kick tail, just really loved the resolution of the Danley's and figure a friend could get a good deal if I decide not to keep them. Keeping with the theme of being nuts though biggrin.gif I may keep them too. For the price I paid, it's hard to imagine selling them. The SH96HO though, whole different world....I think this could be the one that has the component set and ability to do it all. They are also expensive enough that I'd have to scrap everything else to get them in here. I thought about trying the JBLs for fun and there was a set of three for sell not long ago...my problem with them is the CD and wondering how good it is based on what I've read in the past. It seems like the verdict is a CD swap is needed...then it becomes another project. Not that I don't like projects, but I already have them in the seosr, the room, the sub implementation etc. I still feel like the seosr can get there and be a "top of the heap" speaker, just want to try something out I guess.
Definitely man. You got a pair of world beaters in your possession that with a few lil tweaks could b the kings! And that's just going off of the gtg. Exciting stuff man!

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post #452 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 07:34 AM
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Exactly, the 96HO is like the Seosr on steroids! I'm not sure if that's what Keith is using or it's a full custom, but the 10k number is the msrp on the 96HO...acutally 9600 ironically enough.
Yes, yes yes...in all seriousness, I think it's just the fact that there are a few of us looking for that last little bit and that perfect combo of fidelity and dynamics and the legnths one must go to to improve upon what's already there seem to be very great. I don't think we'll ever hit the bottom of this rabbit hole biggrin.gif

I'm beginning to think it wasn't a rabbit that dug my particular hole, but rather one of those insane Kaiju's from Pacific Rim.

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post #453 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 07:37 AM
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Find a set of the Yorks man, you truly can't beat them for the $$. I was actually talking with Andrew last night and telling him that I really think I liked them better than the Noesis. It may just be a preference thing with regard to tonality, etc, but they are absolutely on the same playing field with the other big boys. Haven't heard the JBL's either though.
Thanks I've started keeping my eyes out in the used market. Always scary cause used examples of these types could have literally been put thru the ringer. I'd still love to jump on some!! The JBLs will make a guy rethink some things too. Lots of great options! Just love it!!

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post #454 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 07:38 AM
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Just ran across this review of the SM60F's. Wasn't too good. Positioning may have been wrong. Hmm...interesting Review

I missed this post but saw it referenced in another thread. Although the "review" lacks details, Jeff Meier is a consummate professional who has EQ'd hundreds if not thousands of systems and he is truly brand agnostic. He did mine when I first setup the Orbit Shifters (and T12"s) and I was impressed by the depth of his knowledge. It is the kind of knowledge that only comes from direct experience in many Home Theaters.

I think he correctly identified the limitations of using speakers that were designed for a specific purpose being used for another very different purpose. It isn't that it can't be made to work, it is just that most amature AV'ers don't have the room nor capability to do the setup. I think he see's it as hunting doves with a deer rifle... wink.gif

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post #455 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 07:39 AM
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I enjoyed the demo session with carp last night and the mighty Danleys. I'll not be wordy, but just suffice to say if you've read many of my posts on speaker meets I'm a bit sensitive to treble, perhaps more so than most, and I thought the Danley's were too bright in carp's room. I still haven't written up my thoughts from the G2G, we've been trying to buy a house and my time has been consumed with that, but I commented that C was brighter than I most preferred at the G2G - and those ended up being the Danleys. I think taking them out from behind the AT screen would only have made them brighter at the meet, and I confirmed my suspicion last night in Carps room. We dropped the treble 4dB in carps room during the session and they were still brighter than the Noesis 212HT were at a default treble setting of 0. The FR graphs I saw in Carp's room don't seem to really show the 4dB + treble bias my ears were hearing? confused.gif But given their design goals, intended use, and the excellent commentary by Tom Danely - I totally understand why they would be a bit stronger on the high end. They are made to be used in arenas and large spaces where the treble would fade considerably with distance, so it isn't rolled off in the design like a typical home speaker. The Danleys were very clear, very crisp, and I dig the horn design, but I'm with Carp - for home use, I prefer the 212HT after several hours of the A/B session. Both are EXCELLENT speakers! Subjective preferences I'm sure. Someone who prefers a brighter speaker may completely prefer the Danleys. For me - perhaps with some DSP settings/ proper EQ you could really make them shine, but the basic treble control on the Pioneer Elite reciver wasn't cutting it for me. Taking away the treble bias using only the AVR treble controls made them sound a little bit hollow or something? Some of the guys here clamoring for a unique crossover for home use probably hit the nail on the head -- if you plan to use them in a home theater room without DSP EQ.

BeastAudio I'm sure you'll enjoy the speakers, they are excellent, sound super clear, and the finish/look is outstanding. I really like the coating that the Danely's use, it's a better looking finish than the JTR. I'll venture you'll get them dialed in just right! Thanks for letting carp - and the rest of the KC gang audition them!
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post #456 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I missed this post but saw it referenced in another thread. Although the "review" lacks details, Jeff Meier is a consummate professional who has EQ'd hundreds if not thousands of systems and he is truly brand agnostic. He did mine when I first setup the Orbit Shifters (and T12"s) and I was impressed by the depth of his knowledge. It is the kind of knowledge that only comes from direct experience in many Home Theaters.

I think he correctly identified the limitations of using speakers that were designed for a specific purpose being used for another very different purpose. It isn't that it can't be made to work, it is just that most amature AV'ers don't have the room nor capability to do the setup. I think he see's it as hunting doves with a deer rifle... wink.gif

I have owned the SM60Fs for several years now and his experience is counter to mine especially the part about the cupped hands. I also still own sealed Statements that I built and Magnepan 1.6Rs as reference points for myself. I have the Danleys toed in as Tom has suggested.
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post #457 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I'm beginning to think it wasn't a rabbit that dug my particular hole, but rather one of those insane Kaiju's from Pacific Rim.

I think that about sums it up biggrin.gif

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Thanks I've started keeping my eyes out in the used market. Always scary cause used examples of these types could have literally been put thru the ringer. I'd still love to jump on some!! The JBLs will make a guy rethink some things too. Lots of great options! Just love it!!

I hear ya....used is tough if you aren't sure who used them and for what. There are lots of great options, I'm sure you'll get something you love!
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post #458 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:01 AM
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Hi Guys

Now, I don’t want to sound like an “anti” salesman but unless you find them for real cheap or are actually re-fitting a movie theater or large media room, I wouldn’t go with the SH-96 ho’s.  These are used in clubs and in some Imax conversion theaters (like the Imax at the Chicago museum of science and industry) so they are WAY WAY more than one would need in a living room and that’s even accounting for a wow factor..  

Back view, sh-96 (not HO), 4X 15 inch horn loaded woofers, 6X 4 inch horn loaded mids, 1X 1.4 inch Faital HF.

 

http://www.avalonconsultants.com/images/web%20Danley%20SH%2096.jpg

 

Remember for all of these, they are often more powerful than their size would suggest, even something modest like an SH-100, because of the horn loading and the Synergy type crossover , it can go a lot louder than one might think. 

 

For example, in the “bad sound guy test” the lab that measures our stuff does, music bandwidth shaped pink noise is fed at slowing increasing levels until the frequency response shape at any point deviates 3dB from the 1W shape.   To reach that point requires a 782 Watt amplifier and with a 95dB sensitivity, it goes surprisingly loud and clear and has a  wide pattern with unusually  little sound radiated behind, see polar plots  .  Normally these are used to “fill in” but are also used as main speakers in smaller places.  Here is an example , if you follow the roof line, you see larger keystone shaped things (pods with a TH-118 and GH-60 in each) but between them is a little tiny box pointed down, those are sh-100’s. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j81zw2hfo7k457v/20131208123139.mts

 

At Keith Yates video thing, he used SH-100’s on  stands and poles for surround and rears.

 

 Yes, many of the smaller Synergy horns use a BMS 4550, it has three great properties for these horns, first the hf sensitivity is very high and extended compared to most, two the radiation starts at a smaller diameter and so there is much less of an acoustic perturbation when it reaches the horn entry (the acoustic horn continues within the driver) and third, they have also proven to be very reliable. 

We do use the bms coax drivers on some of our larger boxes, like the 96Ho and J-1 (uses 3) and J-3 (uses 4) but I went with lots of small drivers on the J-2 and J-4.  The only down side of the BMS coax is that the hf does not actually couple with the mid driver well (hf radiates independently) and the time offset doesn’t permit a good passive Synergy type crossover.  That being said, it is the strongest hf / mid hf source one can get in a 1.4 inch driver.

If you guys watched some of the video’s I linked, you might like this cabinet (for the insanity factor). I used to work with Mark in the old days, there have been a couple times when I wished he could have heard some of these systems, I know he would smile..

 

This is a J-3 flown on a lift and TH-812 on the ground, in fact I was the first public demo of it a couple years ago and lead to a number of stadium installations.. 

While these are used in stadiums and such (like in both stadiums I posted) , they  work on the same principals as the sm-60, it’s just WAY more powerful.  This first one wasn’t using the BMS coax (had 4 Faital hf drivers) and a passive xover (which is now done electronically).

 

The first video was from a guy that came to the demo (which was for several sets of stadium people).      It looked to me like a guy walking around that had an iphone with a handle but I was floored when i watched his posted  video.  

       

One of the things we did in the beginning was to do “generation loss” recordings as a reality check and to see where we were relative to our competition.  The idea being, if you do this recording with a dat recorder and measurement mic, on a tower with no reflections, the only thing that limits the number of generations one can undergo is all the things which prevent it from being a faithful reproducer. 

 

Anyway, when I popped the headphones on and watched the video, it gave me goose bumps, the only thing that doesn’t come through is how loud this was.   At about 1:30 Mike walks up and talks to the guy next to the video guy and then you can get an idea how loud it was and set the volume to scale. At about 2:15 he pans out to the field where the people were (including me), the ridge many were on was 150 yards.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

 

A group of them were impressed with the “throw” and that they sound essentially the same at the far side 800 feet away, they piled into into cars and drove to hear it at a distance.    Here is the same system (different video camera etc) at about 1500 feet, the speaker is not visible but is to the left of the light colored building (which was seen in the first video).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiS0-lqSUX4

 

Although we had permission from the Church, when the PoPo came the second time, they were not happy but thankfully I didn’t have to deal with them (involved a minor citation and we had to stop).

Anyway, have fun guys

Best,

Tom

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post #459 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I think that about sums it up biggrin.gif
I hear ya....used is tough if you aren't sure who used them and for what. There are lots of great options, I'm sure you'll get something you love!

Thanks for the kind words! I'm gunna b patient. I have SHO-10s to tide my front stage over for now.

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post #460 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I missed this post but saw it referenced in another thread. Although the "review" lacks details, Jeff Meier is a consummate professional who has EQ'd hundreds if not thousands of systems and he is truly brand agnostic. He did mine when I first setup the Orbit Shifters (and T12"s) and I was impressed by the depth of his knowledge. It is the kind of knowledge that only comes from direct experience in many Home Theaters.

I think he correctly identified the limitations of using speakers that were designed for a specific purpose being used for another very different purpose. It isn't that it can't be made to work, it is just that most amature AV'ers don't have the room nor capability to do the setup. I think he see's it as hunting doves with a deer rifle... wink.gif

And are JTR speakers any different? No. Voiced flat, intended for pro audio use. One would argue that this same statement holds true for the 212's and T12's as well smile.gif

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post #461 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:45 AM
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I enjoyed the demo session with carp last night and the mighty Danleys. I'll not be wordy, but just suffice to say if you've read many of my posts on speaker meets I'm a bit sensitive to treble, perhaps more so than most, and I thought the Danley's were too bright in carp's room. I still haven't written up my thoughts from the G2G, we've been trying to buy a house and my time has been consumed with that, but I commented that C was brighter than I most preferred at the G2G - and those ended up being the Danleys. I think taking them out from behind the AT screen would only have made them brighter at the meet, and I confirmed my suspicion last night in Carps room. We dropped the treble 4dB in carps room during the session and they were still brighter than the Noesis 212HT were at a default treble setting of 0. The FR graphs I saw in Carp's room don't seem to really show the 4dB + treble bias my ears were hearing? confused.gif But given their design goals, intended use, and the excellent commentary by Tom Danely - I totally understand why they would be a bit stronger on the high end. They are made to be used in arenas and large spaces where the treble would fade considerably with distance, so it isn't rolled off in the design like a typical home speaker. The Danleys were very clear, very crisp, and I dig the horn design, but I'm with Carp - for home use, I prefer the 212HT after several hours of the A/B session. Both are EXCELLENT speakers! Subjective preferences I'm sure. Someone who prefers a brighter speaker may completely prefer the Danleys. For me - perhaps with some DSP settings/ proper EQ you could really make them shine, but the basic treble control on the Pioneer Elite reciver wasn't cutting it for me. Taking away the treble bias using only the AVR treble controls made them sound a little bit hollow or something? Some of the guys here clamoring for a unique crossover for home use probably hit the nail on the head -- if you plan to use them in a home theater room without DSP EQ.

BeastAudio I'm sure you'll enjoy the speakers, they are excellent, sound super clear, and the finish/look is outstanding. I really like the coating that the Danely's use, it's a better looking finish than the JTR. I'll venture you'll get them dialed in just right! Thanks for letting carp - and the rest of the KC gang audition them!

Well, the generosity has paid forward it appears. Reef has given me the clearance to go ahead and hold onto the sm60f's until I get the sh50's in hand! That means I will actually be able to do a little head to head in my own space before I send them off smile.gif This is wonderful news for me as I have never felt the 60f's top end to be bright, so the sh50's will get a good test to see if they are in fact a little brighter than the 60f. I agree the graphs are not really showing it, but who knows right?

Jon, thanks for helping Carp lug those guys upstairs to get them ready for shipping. I am sure you could have found much better things to do on a Monday night biggrin.gif

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post #462 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:49 AM
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And are JTR speakers any different? No. Voiced flat, intended for pro audio use. One would argue that this same statement holds true for the 212's and T12's as well smile.gif
I'm asking b/c I do not know. smile.gif

Are you saying that with JTR speakers the Professional lineup Is voiced exactly the same as the residential? 3tx is the same as the 212 and the 12x is the same as the T12 and so forth?

Is the cabinet design the only difference?

Thanks
Chris
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post #463 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 09:56 AM
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What are the drivers used in the Unity Horn of the U215 as well as the LF drivers used? Are they sourced or built by Yorkville?

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post #464 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:07 AM
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I'm asking b/c I do not know. smile.gif

Are you saying that with JTR speakers the Professional lineup Is voiced exactly the same as the residential? 3tx is the same as the 212 and the 12x is the same as the T12 and so forth?

Is the cabinet design the only difference?

Thanks
Chris

I would assume so. Jeff, just as Tom does as well does not utilize the "X-curve" or "house curve" in his designs. It is clearly evident with ground plane measurements, or even right in the graphs carp posted. They aim for a dead flat FR that runs from the speakers -3 point up to wherever the compression driver begins to roll off. Some "hifi" designs tend to incorporate what is around a 10dB decrease over the FR bottom to top, a slope if you will. JBL coined it the "X-curve" but the concept is still pretty much the same. It deals with the Fletcher-Munson curves and what the human ear perceives as "flat" which 9 times out of 10, the sloping response is guessed in blind as closer to flat than the "real" flat response used by the likes of Danley, JTR, and many others for that matter.

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post #465 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:11 AM
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What are the drivers used in the Unity Horn of the U215 as well as the LF drivers used? Are they sourced or built by Yorkville?

The horn holds the BMS 4550 CD and 3 rather pedestrian Celestion 5" mids, and the 15" driver is the Eighteen Sound 15ND930.
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post #466 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:14 AM
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And are JTR speakers any different? No. Voiced flat, intended for pro audio use. One would argue that this same statement holds true for the 212's and T12's as well smile.gif

I get what you are saying and while true for the Professional versions the Residential versions are voiced differently. Tom said he was working on a HT version of the SM60F and that would be more user friendly for the average Joe.

I think with your skills, goals and mindset, the SH50's should be an excellent match. I'm looking forward to your impressions. cool.gif

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post #467 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:15 AM
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The horn holds the BMS 4550 CD and 3 rather pedestrian Celestion 5" mids, and the 15" driver is the Eighteen Sound 15ND930.

Thank you kindly my good man! smile.gif

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post #468 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:26 AM
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I get what you are saying and while true for the Professional versions the Residential versions are voiced differently. Tom said he was working on a HT version of the SM60F and that would be more user friendly for the average Joe.

I think with your skills, goals and mindset, the SH50's should be an excellent match. I'm looking forward to your impressions. cool.gif

Seems a large treated room utilizing some good EQ and an AT screen would go great with the SH50s. I heard them awhile back at a jogging event Colorado my wife was preticipating in outdoors and some DJ was using them as both public address and for music with some Yorkville powered 18s and they were excellent paired together . Even 100-200 feet away the highs were sparkling. So sad no body else barely acknowledged there existence as I was bobbing my head up and down to them. Also sad that they were so beat up and haggard from abuse.

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post #469 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:32 AM
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Why not.

We are talking home theater freaks here.

Because Floyd Toole seemed to show with his research that more than 4 had no benefit.

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post #470 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:35 AM
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Because Floyd Toole seemed to show with his research that more than 4 had no benefit.
Adding output can and usually is a good benifit. Lower distortion from drivers not working as hard and the increased dynamics of more headroom on tap.

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post #471 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:39 AM
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Because Floyd Toole seemed to show with his research that more than 4 had no benefit.
Co-locating them results in increased dbs. So it can viewed as 4 subs with 8 drivers.smile.gif
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post #472 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Seems a large treated room utilizing some good EQ and an AT screen would go great with the SH50s. I heard them awhile back at a jogging event Colorado my wife was preticipating in outdoors and some DJ was using them as both public address and for music with some Yorkville powered 18s and they were excellent paired together . Even 100-200 feet away the highs were sparkling. So sad no body else barely acknowledged there existence as I was bobbing my head up and down to them. Also sad that they were so beat up and haggard from abuse.

I think it would be interesting to use dsp room correction with the point sources.
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post #473 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 10:55 AM
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I think it would be interesting to use dsp room correction with the point sources.
Especially in a difficult room. I'm just now starting to delve into the world of point source speakers. Does phase alignment become much better in a point source? I would imagine so amongst other positives.

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post #474 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I get what you are saying and while true for the Professional versions the Residential versions are voiced differently. Tom said he was working on a HT version of the SM60F and that would be more user friendly for the average Joe.

I think with your skills, goals and mindset, the SH50's should be an excellent match. I'm looking forward to your impressions. cool.gif

Thanks man! I understand the JTR home versions may be "Voiced" differently, but they still adhere to the "Flat" Freq. response graph as opposed to the sloping approach. Another point of fact is that Audyssey's "Target Curve" is ALSO dead flat, and is something that I have complained about from day one. I did flat, and realized I hated it. I MUCH prefer the slanted slope approach such as the full band house curve gives you.

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Especially in a difficult room. I'm just now starting to delve into the world of point source speakers. Does phase alignment become much better in a point source? I would imagine so amongst other positives.

Yes, that is one of their absolute #1 benefits.
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post #475 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

I think it would be interesting to use dsp room correction with the point sources.

Actually you will see in Tom's post, the synergy design and proper placement basically renders DSP unnecessary.

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post #476 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:07 AM
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Because Floyd Toole seemed to show with his research that more than 4 had no benefit.

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Co-locating them results in increased dbs. So it can viewed as 4 subs with 8 drivers.smile.gif
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The research showed there is not much to be gained from having more than 4 areas of the room driven by subwoofers. Most of the guys on here with the uber-setups do end up with 4 driven areas using a pair of drivers per location.

Having more than one driver in each location could be viewed as gravy, but who doesn't like gravy? biggrin.gif

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post #477 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:15 AM
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I would assume so. Jeff, just as Tom does as well does not utilize the "X-curve" or "house curve" in his designs.

Actually, X curves are entirely different than house curves, or even Harman's research on "subjectively flat" findings.

I believe the "X" curve is exclusively a commercial cinema EQ term, taming the top end due to reverb of larger spaces variable effect w/freq.

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post #478 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:27 AM
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Beast, best of luck with the new stuff
Actually, X curves are entirely different than house curves, or even Harman's research on "subjectively flat" findings.

I believe the "X" curve is exclusively a commercial cinema EQ term, taming the top end due to reverb of larger spaces variable effect w/freq.

You are correct, where the top end rolloff is usually what takes place, but it is still a deviation from "Flat" as these speakers we discussed are initially aiming for. the house curve being a full bandwidth decrease in spl vs the X curve which mainly focuses on just the higher end of the spectrum.

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post #479 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I missed this post but saw it referenced in another thread. Although the "review" lacks details, Jeff Meier is a consummate professional who has EQ'd hundreds if not thousands of systems and he is truly brand agnostic. He did mine when I first setup the Orbit Shifters (and T12"s) and I was impressed by the depth of his knowledge. It is the kind of knowledge that only comes from direct experience in many Home Theaters.

I think he correctly identified the limitations of using speakers that were designed for a specific purpose being used for another very different purpose. It isn't that it can't be made to work, it is just that most amature AV'ers don't have the room nor capability to do the setup. I think he see's it as hunting doves with a deer rifle... wink.gif

And are JTR speakers any different? No. Voiced flat, intended for pro audio use. One would argue that this same statement holds true for the 212's and T12's as well smile.gif
I thought I understood in talking with Jeff Permanian in the past that the 228HT and the 212HT (residential) are voiced differently than the 2TX, 2AX, or 3TX which are intended for pro application. I do recall a post in the JTR thread where Jeff had a customer want the pro style cab, but he customized the crossover to give it the residential voicing.

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post #480 of 798 Old 01-28-2014, 12:02 PM
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Beast, best of luck with the new stuff
Actually, X curves are entirely different than house curves, or even Harman's research on "subjectively flat" findings.

I believe the "X" curve is exclusively a commercial cinema EQ term, taming the top end due to reverb of larger spaces variable effect w/freq.
Also when you engage Re/EQ on a THX reciever that also is an x-curve shape de-emphasis trying to tame the then bright lossy soundtracks of DD and DTS as well as un-tampered theatrical releases of the day.

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