January 18th Loudspeaker GTG results thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Guygasm View Post

Longtime lurker. With this talk of electrostatics and Synergys, I have to ask. Is there anything specific preventing a Synergy design utilizing an AMT?

Could you take it a step further and use multiple AMTs in a paraline similar to their Jericho series to get the dynamics and SPL closer to the compression version? Would this also yield more front to back uniformity à la a line array?

I'm sure it would be an undertaking and blow the cost even futher out of the water. Just curious.

You could use AMT's for a Synergy type design but I think they would work better in an array. I've been looking at doing an array with them.

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post #542 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 10:52 AM
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I'll agree here. For me there is no single perfect speaker. I still haven't found anything that can replicate that sweet sound of a planar/electrostat! With that said, they wouldn't be my choice for HT use, but it sure is nice to have both in the house.
Exactally. That is why I want to set up a little 2ch room. Tubes, Salks and a rock glass of scotch.

I would certainly love to hear another set of Electrostatics set up right. From what I heard the first time, I thought it was the worst thing I have ever heard. The guy at the store demoing them said to me, "Don't they sound great" I was honest and said no, they are horrible. However everything sounds better in Andrews room, so I will have to hear them there!! tongue.gif

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post #543 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 11:04 AM
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Exactally. That is why I want to set up a little 2ch room. Tubes, Salks and a rock glass of scotch.

I would certainly love to hear another set of Electrostatics set up right. From what I heard the first time, I thought it was the worst thing I have ever heard. The guy at the store demoing them said to me, "Don't they sound great" I was honest and said no, they are horrible. However everything sounds better in Andrews room, so I will have to hear them there!! tongue.gif

Very similar experience for me. Salesmen at the big b&m usually just tout what their peers have learned to tout. I can't stand any speaker with such a small sweet spot.

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post #544 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Very similar experience for me. Salesmen at the big b&m usually just tout what their peers have learned to tout. I can't stand any speaker with such a small sweet spot.
Hows the new set up? Pair of shifters huh? Nice.

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post #545 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guygasm View Post

Longtime lurker. With this talk of electrostatics and Synergys, I have to ask. Is there anything specific preventing a Synergy design utilizing an AMT?

Could you take it a step further and use multiple AMTs in a paraline similar to their Jericho series to get the dynamics and SPL closer to the compression version? Would this also yield more front to back uniformity à la a line array?

I'm sure it would be an undertaking and blow the cost even futher out of the water. Just curious.

Come out of the gates a-swinging then eh! Haha, glad you posted! That would be a pretty neat design for sure, however I don't know of any AMT horn loaded designs at this point. You could do something perhaps similar to Bill Fitzmaurice's design where you get the amt array, with two horn loaded drivers behind it, but his designs don't dig nearly as deep as the Synergy.

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post #546 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Come out of the gates a-swinging then eh! Haha, glad you posted! That would be a pretty neat design for sure, however I don't know of any AMT horn loaded designs at this point. You could do something perhaps similar to Bill Fitzmaurice's design where you get the amt array, with two horn loaded drivers behind it, but his designs don't dig nearly as deep as the Synergy.

My AVR sets the crossovers to 90hz(mains) and 70 hz(center) for my arrays. I change them to 80hz of course. My center channels were made with built in amps which I took out so the cabs are a little bigger which most likely accounts for the lower crossover. The W10 surrounds get set at 200 hz but only down 6 dBs at 80hz. These are also really sensitive and top end rolloff beyond 10khz is a must.
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post #547 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 01:05 PM
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Well I have seen the Beyma TPL150H which uses a smaller waveguide.



I was unsure if the larger area would make coupling to the horn difficult or cause other problems. AMTs seem to have a large surrounding structure to generate the necessary magnetic field so real estate may be tight on the horn as far as mounting the mid-woofers as they need to be quite close to the throat. I haven't seen much of the internal specifics on the Jericho concept to know if they use a different approach that would work around this.

While I'm spewing out thoughts... Their GH60 speaker uses a Shaded Amplitude Lens (angled slats in the horn, I'm sure there's more to it) to skew the sound energy to the bottom for even large venue coverage like a line array. I was wondering about the utility of this to skew the energy sideways. I.e. rather than toeing in significantly pointing the main axis of the speaker at the far seat, use the skewed pattern to accomplish the same thing. With an extreme toe in, I see the advantage for time intensity trading. But it also would blast half of the energy right at the wall, which seems to counteract one of the main advantages of the Synergy. This thought seemed beneficial if integrating in a front wall and avoiding the need to angle segments. Perhaps even more beneficial if implementing a DBA. I would assume the slats introduce some undesirable characteristics. I could also see all of this not having any bearing on the smaller distances we are talking about in HT.

And on I go... Keith Yates' outdoor theater setup was discussed earlier. I've always been under the impression that an outdoor setting is the ultimate in terms of clarity due to lack of boundaries, modes, etc. If that is so, why do most consider an overly damped room "bad" and want more diffusion, coloration, etc. These seem to be in conflict. I may be just thinking to basically about it.

Thanks for the time. Sorry if a little OT.
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post #548 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 01:14 PM
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No way! This is fun! The shaded amplitude lens I couldnt comment on as I have never heard on in person, but for the room treatment part of your post. I prefer my room on the more "Dead" side, but there are areas of the FR that even the most heavily treated rooms can't fix, as well as additional phenomena that are just inherent to indoor listening. Yes you can get rid of things like SBIR by using a baffle wall, and you can treat first reflections, but this is still for mostly over 100hz. Bass traps can help perhaps a little lower, but not much. The lower octaves are still very much dominated by room interference, and though damped, room reflections across the FR still do exist somewhat.

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post #549 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 02:03 PM
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What a room build and this guy seems to like ribbons.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416004/bef-from-norway-diy-uncompromising-theater

Check out the surrounds...



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post #550 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 03:19 PM
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I'm fixing to make every single one of you who looks at this woot link today on 1-30-2014 lose 15 minutes of your day.

http://tech.woot.com/offers/mirage-omd-28-floorstanding-speaker-6


"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #551 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 03:23 PM
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These tweeters from BEF-NO are not really ribbons, but Airmotion Tweeters, Beyma TPL150H. They use a horn. I was certain to go this way also, but the usable angle is only 40° (although it is supposed to be 80°, but that's -6dB). And the fronts need an extra midrange. I ended up choosing a SEOS-24™ which I will start to build as LCR.

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #552 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 03:35 PM
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I thought air motions were ribbons also... guess I was wrong


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post #553 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm fixing to make every single one of you who looks at this woot link today on 1-30-2014 lose 15 minutes of your day.

http://tech.woot.com/offers/mirage-omd-28-floorstanding-speaker-6


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post #554 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm fixing to make every single one of you who looks at this woot link today on 1-30-2014 lose 15 minutes of your day.

http://tech.woot.com/offers/mirage-omd-28-floorstanding-speaker-6

WAF friendly...

Sensitivity?

 

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post #555 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm fixing to make every single one of you who looks at this woot link today on 1-30-2014 lose 15 minutes of your day.

http://tech.woot.com/offers/mirage-omd-28-floorstanding-speaker-6

WAF friendly...

Sensitivity?

...and this marks the start of your 15 minute timer...

GO!

tongue.gif

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #556 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:21 PM
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Not even close, The IMAX I go to uses 5.1 speakers and it sounds better than any cinema I have ever heard. My local THX cinema which sits 325 has 5 speakers behind the screen, each one about $3000 for $15000. Then they have about $7875 in surrounds and $4000-$6000 in subs. Total of $29000 for a total THX certified system that will kick serious butt. Where are getting this 100K from?

Just out of thin air after learning that the Danley's cost 10K each... i was thinking at least LCR, Height, 2 backs each $10K, and then tons of subs, each 10K, and throw in other side surrounds, etc, and you might hit 100K...

But I guess I was way off..


BTW: Where did you get the figure of $3000 for those Imax speakers? They look very custom and very impressive to me.. i would assume they would cost more than the Danleys... (considering they are going to be making a profit from their cinema partners from every equipment they sell to them, including those speakers).. is this a number you guessed based on what you could do with a similar DIY design or their actual 'cost' to cinema operators?

Also, you left out 'tons of subs'...

However, although I was way off for the US market, I might be almost spot on for local cinemas in my country or maybe other places outside of the US.. remember, everything cost twice or more as much... One of my friend works at a company that supplies mostly pro equipment to businesses including cinemas and clubs, etc,... according to him the speakers for a cinema would cost about USD 70K each cinema...

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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

True story! Even with amps and processing, it doesn't equal $100k. For 200-350 seats, most theatres use a pair of ported JBL 18" cinema subwoofers. If you're lucky, you'll be in a room with four 18" drivers.

No wonder most cinemas sucks...


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post #557 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:26 PM
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...and this marks the start of your 15 minute timer...

GO!

tongue.gif

I have heard their smaller sat/sub system.. pretty sweet sounding.. when i walked into the demo room, i heard some truly amazing music.. then was checking to see which speaker it was coming out of.. and for a long time couldn't figure it out cause the sound was literally all around the room... no point source... pretty nice..

Each of these cost 899, same as the Single 8s.. Wonder how they can make a profit.. (darn nice cabinets, 2 8inch woofers, marketing costs, etc, etc)


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post #558 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:28 PM
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Yea cuz the likes of us just don't think 4 18's is anything less than pedestrian....in a space 1/20th the size of a commercial theater....Where there is also room gain.... F'n Amateurs


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post #559 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 04:28 PM
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woot, if you are unfamiliar, is a one deal a day blowout site. They take overstock or discontinued items and sell them at less than market value. They are now owned by Amazon.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #560 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 05:12 PM
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...and this marks the start of your 15 minute timer...

GO!

tongue.gif

Shot down...

Those would have looked good in the living room. Would be nice to have a few different alignments through out the house too...

Oh well.

 

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post #561 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 05:17 PM
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Shot down...

Those would have looked good in the living room. Would be nice to have a few different alignments through out the house too...

Oh well.

I'm sorry, but have you gone mad? Nothing is better than the Bose in the family room wink.giftongue.gif

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post #562 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 05:22 PM
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Hahhah!

Yes, I forgot about that bose system that currently is squatting his living room space. Tell your wife two things Austin.

1) You'll sell the bose to help pay for the mirage.
2) The internet friends from missouri who spent the night at your place approve of the mirage purchase.

Surely she'll listen to reason?


;p

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #563 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 05:38 PM
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That's funny. I have a set of Series 1's in my living room. I recently replaced all of the caps in the EQ. Helped a lot with the highs.
The Series 1's had the fabric surrounds so they seem to last forever. These guys are 43 years old.
They aren't currently hooked up. Old classics.


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post #564 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 05:58 PM
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Misery?!?! Errrr.... I mean Missouri?!?!?


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post #565 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 06:53 PM
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I like to consider KC as KANSAS City. Why would anyone live in Kansas City Missouri? SO much further away....
countryWV likes this.

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post #566 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Just out of thin air after learning that the Danley's cost 10K each... i was thinking at least LCR, Height, 2 backs each $10K, and then tons of subs, each 10K, and throw in other side surrounds, etc, and you might hit 100K...

But I guess I was way off..


BTW: Where did you get the figure of $3000 for those Imax speakers? They look very custom and very impressive to me.. i would assume they would cost more than the Danleys... (considering they are going to be making a profit from their cinema partners from every equipment they sell to them, including those speakers).. is this a number you guessed based on what you could do with a similar DIY design or their actual 'cost' to cinema operators?

Also, you left out 'tons of subs'...

However, although I was way off for the US market, I might be almost spot on for local cinemas in my country or maybe other places outside of the US.. remember, everything cost twice or more as much... One of my friend works at a company that supplies mostly pro equipment to businesses including cinemas and clubs, etc,... according to him the speakers for a cinema would cost about USD 70K each cinema...
No wonder most cinemas sucks...

Sorry, I was pricing the local THX cinema which uses JBL pro screen arrays. I did not know what brand speakers IMAX uses but they are nice when setup correctly.
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post #567 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 09:51 PM
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I would wager that IMAX speakers run no more than $7000 each. My local 15/70mm IMAX blows the drivers quite frequently. The projection manager told me he has changed out about 10 drivers from speakers behind the screen in the part 2 years.

David Budo
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post #568 of 875 Old 01-30-2014, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

You could use AMT's for a Synergy type design but I think they would work better in an array. I've been looking at doing an array with them.

this(read entire thread);

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html
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post #569 of 875 Old 01-31-2014, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Just out of thin air after learning that the Danley's cost 10K each... i was thinking at least LCR, Height, 2 backs each $10K, and then tons of subs, each 10K, and throw in other side surrounds, etc, and you might hit 100K...

..
There are a couple of IMAX theaters that have Danley products in them. None of them use Danley products that cost $10K each. The ones used (there have been a couple of different models in different theaters) are much less than 10K. One did use some extra baffles to make the speakers look larger than they actually are-but I would not say that is part of the "basic price" of the speaker.

Now if you start to talk loudspeaker + amp+ processing+cable+ installation-NOW it starts to add up. So you have to know exactly what you are looking at when it comes to pricing.

Most Danley products are much less than 10K and some are quite a bit more. And quite A BIT LOUDER than any IMAX would ever run.
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post #570 of 875 Old 01-31-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I like to consider KC as KANSAS City. Why would anyone live in Kansas City Missouri? SO much further away....


Most of our population is suburbs, but KCMO is significantly larger than KCKS.

I live in a Kansas suburb and teach/coach in a MO suburb so I have a nice drive to work everyday.


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