January 18th Loudspeaker GTG results thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Not to derail the thread, but Mr. Jeff P. posted this picture on Facebook and Kevin posted it in the JTR speaker thread. Thought you ought to be made aware of his latest creation, The Noesis 215HT:
Puts things in perspective.......cool.gif
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post #722 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Very cool! Thanks.

I'm betting if my room was treated like yours I wouldn't have had any of the fatigue... and somehow your speakers would have been lost during shipping! tongue.gifwink.gif

When people here say they are done upgrading speakers I don't believe them... this time I think it's true though. smile.gif

One thing is for certain, the synergy concept is where it's at, and if there were to be any form of upgrade, it would be to another Danley design. Perhaps an active version or a slightly more aesthetic box biggrin.gif

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Hmmm I keep forgetting that big bump I had around 1khz when measuring the Danley's - like you said before, that could have accounted for the fatigue. I wish I had tried to eq that out using the manual mcacc.... maybe it's for the best that I didn't!

Methinks it perhaps was biggrin.gif I would bet it was either that, or slightly elevated listening levels. I listened to a few tracks on Luna Park last night and it was just SOOOO clean. I saw 110dB on the meter with the subs running, and I still felt like I could take more, it was crazy.

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post #723 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Reef already has his new toys biggrin.gif I actually only got to crank on the fiddys good for the first time last night. I have gone through the g2g disc once or twice already, but just with them full range, not the subs. Last night I had two other avs members over (at different times) and gave them both a proper demo of some movie scenes and music. Man these things are special. I was talking to Andrew some about it last night in between the sessions. They have a similar (obviously) sonic signature to the 60's but are just much more refined. Even though the 60f's had the most presence of all the speakers IMO from the g2g, the 50's improve on that even more as well. Listening to the g2g disc, I was hearing things that I didn't hear at all before. SO much clarity and staging with them. One of my favorites with the 60's was how great they were with soundstaging. Well, the 50 improve once again on that as well. See a trend here? haha.

Yep, the 50's are just an improvement of the 60f's in all areas IMO. The two concerns I had were with a little response dip between 100-200hz, but my room supplements that area seemingly well so no issue there. The other was the top-end rolloff, but that certainly hasn't been anything that I have noticed either. Cymbals and triangles, the Blake track, all is there and still very strong. Bottom line, the game is over for me. Like, Period. These are the absolute pinnacle of my experience in HT so far, by a very fair margin.

Now it is just time to start working on some new sub boxes and get all that going again biggrin.gif

I was one of the lucky ones that had a demo last night of these beasts... They didn't disappoint one bit.... biggrin.gif

Wish I could have stayed around longer but I had a two hour drive back home.
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post #724 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

I was one of the lucky ones that had a demo last night of these beasts... They didn't disappoint one bit.... biggrin.gif

Wish I could have stayed around longer but I had a two hour drive back home.

Coach, you need to help me talk Brandon into bringing those up to my house this Spring for a little mini GTG at my house. Maybe even squeeze in a round of golf smile.gif


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post #725 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Coach, you need to help me talk Brandon into bringing those up to my house this Spring for a little mini GTG at my house. Maybe even squeeze in a round of golf smile.gif

I like where you head is.... These things are HUGE....and would require a good size car to make it up safely.. lol
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post #726 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 11:13 AM
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I really think the 215 is going to be an amazing speaker, but Iam curious if it is going to sound much different than than the 212? I mean yes it will have more bass, but I imagine the top end should be identical right?

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post #727 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

I like where you head is.... These things are HUGE....and would require a good size car to make it up safely.. lol

Hey, your buddy David (dgage) said he was also interested in coming up this Spring. He said he had a mini van so load up the Danley the clubs and lets do this thing smile.gif


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post #728 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I really think the 215 is going to be an amazing speaker, but Iam curious if it is going to sound much different than than the 212? I mean yes it will have more bass, but I imagine the top end should be identical right?

When I ordered my Noesis a month ago I had this exact conversation with Jeff. I told him I would consider getting the 215s over the 212s and he said from 100HZ on up they will be very very similar as they share the same compression driver. He will cross it over lower in the 215...I think he said 300HZ instead of 400HZ. It is really the performance below 100HZ where the 215 takes off. Well I have dual S2 subs so didn't really see the benefit for my set-up.


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post #729 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Reef already has his new toys biggrin.gif I actually only got to crank on the fiddys good for the first time last night. I have gone through the g2g disc once or twice already, but just with them full range, not the subs. Last night I had two other avs members over (at different times) and gave them both a proper demo of some movie scenes and music. Man these things are special. I was talking to Andrew some about it last night in between the sessions. They have a similar (obviously) sonic signature to the 60's but are just much more refined. Even though the 60f's had the most presence of all the speakers IMO from the g2g, the 50's improve on that even more as well. Listening to the g2g disc, I was hearing things that I didn't hear at all before. SO much clarity and staging with them. One of my favorites with the 60's was how great they were with soundstaging. Well, the 50 improve once again on that as well. See a trend here? haha.

Yep, the 50's are just an improvement of the 60f's in all areas IMO. The two concerns I had were with a little response dip between 100-200hz, but my room supplements that area seemingly well so no issue there. The other was the top-end rolloff, but that certainly hasn't been anything that I have noticed either. Cymbals and triangles, the Blake track, all is there and still very strong. Bottom line, the game is over for me. Like, Period. These are the absolute pinnacle of my experience in HT so far, by a very fair margin.

Now it is just time to start working on some new sub boxes and get all that going again biggrin.gif
Hearing things you haven't heard before is a standard comment people say about the SH50s.

At one trade show we played a video and during the break a guy came up and said that he was the guy who mastered that particular movie-and he was hearing things during the demo that he had missed during the mix.

Another year a guy came up and was wondering where we got the "special" audio version of a DVD. He was the engineer on the project and said that what he heard during our demo was NOT on the standard issue.

Mike told him-yeah-he does know a special place that gets him special "deals". The guy wanted to know where somebody could get "enhanced" version.

Mike broke down and gave him the name. It is a little know place called Walmart
YEP just the standard version they sell.

But on a good playback system you do hear more of what is really there.
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post #730 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Hearing things you haven't heard before is a standard comment people say about the SH50s.

At one trade show we played a video and during the break a guy came up and said that he was the guy who mastered that particular movie-and he was hearing things during the demo that he had missed during the mix.

Another year a guy came up and was wondering where we got the "special" audio version of a DVD. He was the engineer on the project and said that what he heard during our demo was NOT on the standard issue.

Mike told him-yeah-he does know a special place that gets him special "deals". The guy wanted to know where somebody could get "enhanced" version.

Mike broke down and gave him the name. It is a little know place called Walmart
YEP just the standard version they sell.

But on a good playback system you do hear more of what is really there.

What was the source->signal->power chain for this demo?
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post #731 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Hearing things you haven't heard before is a standard comment people say about the SH50s.

At one trade show we played a video and during the break a guy came up and said that he was the guy who mastered that particular movie-and he was hearing things during the demo that he had missed during the mix.

Another year a guy came up and was wondering where we got the "special" audio version of a DVD. He was the engineer on the project and said that what he heard during our demo was NOT on the standard issue.

Mike told him-yeah-he does know a special place that gets him special "deals". The guy wanted to know where somebody could get "enhanced" version.

Mike broke down and gave him the name. It is a little know place called Walmart
YEP just the standard version they sell.

But on a good playback system you do hear more of what is really there.

Haha. SO true though. I have run through a fair amount of familiar material so far. I still have plenty I want to watch over again, but so far I am simply floored. with my old sm60f stands, the tweeter on the sh50 is several inches above ear level on the front row, so the next plan is to bring them back down a shade and fix that, but even on the top-end I don't feel like I am missing much of anything. I do prefer a little rolloff through the passband as well. Do you feel in your opinion that I should keep them as is, or make the next stand design centered around getting the center of the horn at ear-level? Right now I would say I am about 6 inches below. Keeping it where it is would supplement the second row a little better, but I am going to design the new sub boxes around optimizing the front row and MLP anyways, as it is usually just the lady and I watching anyways. Second row can complain all they want, they didn't pay admission biggrin.gif
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post #732 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

The horn holds the BMS 4550 CD and 3 rather pedestrian Celestion 5" mids, and the 15" driver is the Eighteen Sound 15ND930.

The mids look like the Celestion TF0510MR. Probably chosen for its "closed" basket design?

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post #733 of 875 Old 02-07-2014, 11:06 PM
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The mids look like the Celestion TF0510MR. Probably chosen for its "closed" basket design?

I do believe that is the mid (just did a quick search and found one other reference too). I had one of my U15's torn apart to replace the 4550 a while back...didn't even think to check the part number on the driver at the time.
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post #734 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Haha. SO true though. I have run through a fair amount of familiar material so far. I still have plenty I want to watch over again, but so far I am simply floored. with my old sm60f stands, the tweeter on the sh50 is several inches above ear level on the front row, so the next plan is to bring them back down a shade and fix that, but even on the top-end I don't feel like I am missing much of anything. I do prefer a little rolloff through the passband as well. Do you feel in your opinion that I should keep them as is, or make the next stand design centered around getting the center of the horn at ear-level? Right now I would say I am about 6 inches below. Keeping it where it is would supplement the second row a little better, but I am going to design the new sub boxes around optimizing the front row and MLP anyways, as it is usually just the lady and I watching anyways. Second row can complain all they want, they didn't pay admission biggrin.gif

If memory serves me correctly, Danley recommends that their speakers be placed above the listening position and aimed down at the listeners.

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post #735 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 06:21 AM
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If memory serves me correctly, Danley recommends that their speakers be placed above the listening position and aimed down at the listeners.
That's how it's almost always done in pro-sound. You don't want the highs blocked from the listeners in the back rows by the heads of the listeners in the front rows. The same would apply in an HT with more than one row of seating. Even with one row it's still a good idea, as it reduces early reflections off the ceiling, while the high frequencies will reflect of the wall behind the LP at an oblique angle.
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post #736 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 06:37 AM
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The danley hasa me confused. where are all these drivers? 2x 12", 4x 5", 1 x1" I'd guess the tweeter is at the base of the horn, but what about the others? and what are all those holes in the horn walls?
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post #737 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 07:00 AM
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^^^^ambesolman....The Danley box on the 60 is kinda large, and the 50 is even larger I believe. Those "holes" lead to where each of the drivers are located behind the all-encompassing horn wall.
If you search around, you will find some pics of the Danleys without the "outer case" and you should be able to see how they are mounted inside....it's kinda cool.


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^^^^ambesolman....The Danley box on the 60 is kinda large, and the 50 is even larger I believe. Those "holes" lead to where each of the drivers are located behind the all-encompassing horn wall.
If you search around, you will find some pics of the Danleys without the "outer case" and you should be able to see how they are mounted inside....it's kinda cool.

Kinda like this




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post #739 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 11:32 AM
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For a brief spell I had these guys driven via bridged Face Audio F1200TS - they will do 120+ in room and maintain composure while doing so.

I would often invite Metallica/Pantera into my home for special concerts when the family was away:cool:
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

One thing is for certain, the synergy concept is where it's at, and if there were to be any form of upgrade, it would be to another Danley design. Perhaps an active version or a slightly more aesthetic box biggrin.gif
Methinks it perhaps was biggrin.gif I would bet it was either that, or slightly elevated listening levels. I listened to a few tracks on Luna Park last night and it was just SOOOO clean. I saw 110dB on the meter with the subs running, and I still felt like I could take more, it was crazy.
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post #740 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

^^^^ambesolman....The Danley box on the 60 is kinda large, and the 50 is even larger I believe. Those "holes" lead to where each of the drivers are located behind the all-encompassing horn wall.
If you search around, you will find some pics of the Danleys without the "outer case" and you should be able to see how they are mounted inside....it's kinda cool.

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Kinda like this




CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

Thanks fellas! So each driver has a hole that the sound comes out of then funneled into the horn. Huh. It would seem that the sound from the drivers would be attenuated by the material surrounding the holes, but I'm no speaker designer. It obviously works great, props to danley!
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post #741 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 12:17 PM
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Would the sm96 pair well with sm60f for a center channel?

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post #742 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Reef already has his new toys biggrin.gif I actually only got to crank on the fiddys good for the first time last night. I have gone through the g2g disc once or twice already, but just with them full range, not the subs. Last night I had two other avs members over (at different times) and gave them both a proper demo of some movie scenes and music. Man these things are special. I was talking to Andrew some about it last night in between the sessions. They have a similar (obviously) sonic signature to the 60's but are just much more refined. Even though the 60f's had the most presence of all the speakers IMO from the g2g, the 50's improve on that even more as well. Listening to the g2g disc, I was hearing things that I didn't hear at all before. SO much clarity and staging with them. One of my favorites with the 60's was how great they were with soundstaging. Well, the 50 improve once again on that as well. See a trend here? haha.

Yep, the 50's are just an improvement of the 60f's in all areas IMO. The two concerns I had were with a little response dip between 100-200hz, but my room supplements that area seemingly well so no issue there. The other was the top-end rolloff, but that certainly hasn't been anything that I have noticed either. Cymbals and triangles, the Blake track, all is there and still very strong. Bottom line, the game is over for me. Like, Period. These are the absolute pinnacle of my experience in HT so far, by a very fair margin.

Now it is just time to start working on some new sub boxes and get all that going again biggrin.gif

Spot on.

The SH50s are the best speakers I have ever heard by a wide margin but need some tweaking to sound their best. The only way I am upgrading is either to another SH/JH, hopefully an active version. I am more about music though and they shine for me in this area.
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post #743 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post

What was the source->signal->power chain for this demo?
In those days it was DVD player into Denon receiver into Danley DSP (for local parapmeter control as needed) into Biamp audia (for switching) into homemade 700 watt amp to speakers.

The only processing we used was highpass filters-no eq so you could hear the "naked" speaker.

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post #744 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Haha. SO true though. I have run through a fair amount of familiar material so far. I still have plenty I want to watch over again, but so far I am simply floored. with my old sm60f stands, the tweeter on the sh50 is several inches above ear level on the front row, so the next plan is to bring them back down a shade and fix that, but even on the top-end I don't feel like I am missing much of anything. I do prefer a little rolloff through the passband as well. Do you feel in your opinion that I should keep them as is, or make the next stand design centered around getting the center of the horn at ear-level? Right now I would say I am about 6 inches below. Keeping it where it is would supplement the second row a little better, but I am going to design the new sub boxes around optimizing the front row and MLP anyways, as it is usually just the lady and I watching anyways. Second row can complain all they want, they didn't pay admission biggrin.gif
Since there is a primary listening position-I would go with on axis at ear level. But a little way in either direction is not going to make much difference.

But having them a tad low can be a good thing-since it will not bounce off the walls behind you as much.

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post #745 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

If memory serves me correctly, Danley recommends that their speakers be placed above the listening position and aimed down at the listeners.
That is never a bad idea-but it depends on how much trouble you want to go through (having a speaker tilted is a bit hard than having it sit flat on something.

In a small room It would not make a lot of difference-but in a larger space (say a couple of hundred or thousand people) having them up high and aiming them down is the only way to get even coverage.
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post #746 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 02:00 PM
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Gotcha sir. I think they should still be a little above ear level, so that should be perfect.

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post #747 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

The danley hasa me confused. where are all these drivers? 2x 12", 4x 5", 1 x1" I'd guess the tweeter is at the base of the horn, but what about the others? and what are all those holes in the horn walls?
Those "holes" are acoustic low pass filters. So they filter out the distortion components-resulting in the "cleaner" sound.

The holes are large enough to pass the intended freq of interest-but as the freq goes higher they reduce the level.

Let's say you play a 300 hz tone. That 300Hz will come out of the woofer. But the woofer will also generate (all speakers do this BTW) the overtones of 600-900-1200Hz etc.

Since the holes act as acoustic low pass filters, those higher "distortion" tones are reduced in level-so what you hear is more of just the intended 300hz tone.

So basically they are "distortion reducers".

Yes the HF is in the very back of the horn.

The holes in the sides of the cabinet (not the ones in front of the woofers) use our Tapped horn technology so that the path length from the rear of the 12" adds to the lower end of the direct output which give it the extra low freq and higher sensitivity.

Now there is a lot more going on besides putting "holes" in front of drivers. The placement of the holes vs wavelength-the thickness of the wood where the hole is and the air volume trapped between the driver and the baffle are all part of the proper design. Simply cutting a hole is not going to result in the same results we get.

And then again the crossover design is "not normal". This results in the good phase response.
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post #748 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Ivan
Would the sm96 pair well with sm60f for a center channel?
Yes-that is a great combo. The SM96 would need to be turned sideways to get the 90 wide pattern.

In this case the SM96 and SM60F use the same crossover and drivers-so they "play well" with each other.

In the case of the Sm60/60/69 family they also play well together-but there are a few crossover values that change between the different models to account for the different impedance loading due to the different horns.

With all of our products the crossover is tuned to the specific cabinet/driver combination. No "off the shelf" crossovers hear at all! They are all rolled from scratch-some using some very unique "tricks" that I KNEW were errors when I first saw Toms design-but as he said "take them out and see what happens". So I did. And WOW he was right-even though the basic concept goes against everything I knew (at the time) about crossover design.

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post #749 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post


Thanks fellas! So each driver has a hole that the sound comes out of then funneled into the horn. Huh. It would seem that the sound from the drivers would be attenuated by the material surrounding the holes, but I'm no speaker designer. It obviously works great, props to danley!
That would be the normal "thought"-that the SPL would be reduced.

The holes are large enough so as not to attenuate the sound-but small enough so as to reduce the harmonic distortion of the driver in the intended passband.

As you will notice the midrange holes are smaller -so the freq where they act as acoustic low pass filters is higher than for the woofers.

In many of the Danley products what would at first not seem logical0actually makes a lot of sense when you look at it further-and get down to the real science behind it.

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post #750 of 875 Old 02-08-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Those "holes" are acoustic low pass filters. So they filter out the distortion components-resulting in the "cleaner" sound.

The holes are large enough to pass the intended freq of interest-but as the freq goes higher they reduce the level.

Let's say you play a 300 hz tone. That 300Hz will come out of the woofer. But the woofer will also generate (all speakers do this BTW) the overtones of 600-900-1200Hz etc.

Since the holes act as acoustic low pass filters, those higher "distortion" tones are reduced in level-so what you hear is more of just the intended 300hz tone.

So basically they are "distortion reducers".

Yes the HF is in the very back of the horn.

The holes in the sides of the cabinet (not the ones in front of the woofers) use our Tapped horn technology so that the path length from the rear of the 12" adds to the lower end of the direct output which give it the extra low freq and higher sensitivity.

Now there is a lot more going on besides putting "holes" in front of drivers. The placement of the holes vs wavelength-the thickness of the wood where the hole is and the air volume trapped between the driver and the baffle are all part of the proper design. Simply cutting a hole is not going to result in the same results we get.

And then again the crossover design is "not normal". This results in the good phase response.

Very interesting. Never would have thought of that..but then again I know nothing about speaker design.


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