January 18th Loudspeaker GTG results thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Fair enough, and I don't mean to rain on what appears to have been a good day for all involved. Had I been nearby, I would've loved to attend.

Often solving one issue raises another. Loudspeakers with passive crossovers are usually designed with the assumption that they'll be driven from an amp with low source impedance.

Many Class D amps (and most tube amps) violate that assumption. However, source impedance for Class D and tube amps varies all over the place, so a loudspeaker designer can't really design for high source impedance.
IME, peaks that may amount to a couple dB in the midrange are pretty audible. Remember the original Sunfire amps, with "voltage source" and "current source" binding posts? The latter just had a resistor in-line to raise the source impedance of the amp, and color the midrange of most speakers.

You may want to try a level-matched comparison, into speakers with wide impedance swings. If you still have access to the Danleys, it would also be interesting to see FR when driven by the IPR vs. FR when driven by any old solid state amp (separate or receiver, doesn't really matter).

I brought up the subject because I've done a comparison between my Crest ProLite 2.0 and a multichannel solid state amp (honestly don't remember if it was my old Sherwood A-965 or my new ATI AT2007, but it doesn't matter as both are standard solid-state amps with low noise and low source impedance) on my mains (Pioneer EX), which have this impedance curve:
.

Very interesting insight, thanks for sharing. I know the latest "V2" IPR amps had quite a few changes from the original series according to JD, but I don't know the exact details. I'd be happy to compare in a separate experiment vs. something like my Sherbourn 7-350. I own the Yorkville U215's which I'm not sure how similar they would be to the Danleys but should exhibit similar behavior I'd imagine.
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post #92 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:05 AM
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Frequency charts are posted to the first page.
Post 5.
FRD files are attached to that same post if you want to import into omnimic or REW for your own analysis.

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post #93 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:12 AM
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If you didn't know I was in charge of mixing the music all together and I had near 100 hours listening to the tracks... so I was most likely the most familiar with the content. This was probably evident to the attendees as I complained about not liking the music anymore.... But before I get to my notes I do need to give credit where it is due, I didn't do all the work, not even close. Adam helped me out greatly in gathering the suggestions from everyone and even sending me the tracks he had copies of. This helped me out greatly as I was very pressed for time in the months leading up to the event.

And of course I have to thank Andrew for once again somehow convincing his wife to vacate their house for a day and a half. (Thanks Jodi, hopefully we didn't leave too large a mess) Jim also I am grateful for, managing the money/food/drinks. Also everyone who lugged out equipment and put some skin in the game..... it was havoc on your nerves and might put you out money in the future.

For my review of the day I am going to progress in order of the proceedings. I'll make frequent reference to the track numbers as I list the notes I made on each one, so here it is for reference:
Code:
Track  Start Time    End Time                Genre           Artist                                  Song
1       0:00:00         2:25:00         Classical       Sherlock Holmes OST                     Discombobulate
2       2:27:00         5:23:00         Classical       John Williams 40 Years of Film Music    Close Encounters of the Third Kind. (intro)
3       5:25:00         8:32:00         Classical       Robin Hood Prince of Thieves            Main Theme
4       8:33:00         10:51:00        Classical       The Island                              My Name is Lincoln
5       10:53:00        13:38:00        Soul            Rebecca Pidgeon                         Spanish Harlem
6       13:40:00        16:42:00        Country         Eagles Gone Country                     Hotel California
7       16:44:00        18:22:00        Folk            John Denver                             Leaving on a Jet Plane
8       18:24:00        20:21:00        Folk            Ramblin Jack Elliot                     Soul Of A Man
9       20:24:00        21:39:00        Folk Indie      Dispatch                                Hey Hey
10      21:40:00        24:15:00        Folk Indie      Edwarde Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes  Home
11      24:16:00        26:55:00        Pop             Madonna                                 The Power of Good-Bye
12      26:57:00        29:40:00        Rock            Fleetwood Mac                           Go Insane (Live 1997)
13      29:42:00        31:28:00        Rock            Fleetwood Mac                           Tusk (Live 1997)
14      31:29:00        32:44:00        Rock            The Cars                                Since You're Gone
15      32:46:00        35:39:00        Rock            Nils Lofgren                            Keith dont go
16      35:40:00        37:33:00        Rock Alt        Collective Soul                         December
17      37:34:00        38:47:00        Rock Alt        Incubus                                 Echo
18      38:49:00        40:04:00        Rock Alt        Puscifer                                Dear Brother
19      40:06:00        43:04:00        Electronic      Blake Reary                             Nowhere Near
20      43:06:00        44:39:00        Electronic      Blake Reary                             Dance With Me (Blake Rearys Sky High Mix)
21      44:41:00        46:01:00        Classical       Daft Punk                               Tron Legacy Overture
22      46:03:00        47:03:00        Electronic      Lindsey Stirling                        Moon Trance
23      47:05:00        49:48:00        Symphonic Metal Within Temptation                       Somewhere
24      49:50:00        51:22:00        Rock Alt        Tool                                    Jambi
25      51:25:00        53:43:00        Rock Alt        Tool                                    Undertow
26      53:44:00        55:48:00        Rock Electronic Pendulum                                The Tempest
27      55:50:00        58:17:00        Classical       Peer Gynt                               Suite from Hall of the Mountain King
28      58:19:00        60:17:00        Rock Industrial Trent Reznor                            Carbon Prevails
29      60:19:00        63:22:00        Rock Latin      Gustavo Santaolalla                     The Last of Us
30      63:24:00        65:41:00        Rock Prog       Dire Straits                            What It Is
31      65:43:00        69:15:00        Rock Prog       Pink Floyd                              Time
32      69:18:00        71:16:00        Rock Prog       Styx                                    Renegade
33      71:18:00        72:20:00        Rock Soul       Boz Scaggs                              Thanks to You
34      72:22:00        74:20:00        Metal Cello     Apocalyptica                            One
35      74:22:00        75:16:00        Metal Doom      Woods of Ypres                          Finality
36      75:18:00        76:12:00        Metal Heavy     Disturbed                               Inside the Fire
37      76:14:00        77:22:00        Metal Prog      Dream Theater                           Another Day
38      77:24:00        80:46:00        Metal Prog      Dream Theater                           The Count of Tuscany
39      80:48:00        82:14:00        Metalcore       Atreyu                                  An Interlude
40      82:16:00        88:12:00        Trance Pop      Oblivion OST                            Oblivion (feat. Susanne Sundfør)

SEOSR: The first setup took a few hours (3.5) to setup, but it was by far the largest and most complicated. Congrats to Chop for losing sleep building it the few nights before hand.

Starting out the first track (Discombobulate) I wrote down that the high tones were getting drown out by the mid range frequencies. As I could come to find throughout my listen the frequency range needs some refinement, but I am getting ahead of myself.
Track four (Lincoln) I had a note written down saying that the choir sounded quieter compared to the rest of the track. Even though this was the first listen through of the day I was sort of confident that this was true.
Track five (harlem) I hate this track and refuse to comment further.
Skipping on down the track list I get to number nine (Hey Hey) This is about where I would meander my way to the front couch and listen for a few songs. I wrong that the t-sh sound in the lyrics had lost some clarity that I knew was there. And to go along with that that the sibilance in the recording was almost missing. As I knew it was in the recording I was counting that as a negative, even though I can't stand sibilance normally. I also had written that the mic puffs from the singer were very significant and powerful.
Track ten is a favorite of mine (Home). I really like the females accent, but sadly I was disappointed that her voice was slightly lost in the large 11 piece band that plays along with her.
Skipping a track I wrote for number twelve (Go Insane) that the high tones are ringing and that sweeps from low->mid->high->very high frequencies have this eq balance hot---low-->hot->low->high This was where I started to question if the dsp was tuned well enough for the day. I knew it was a last minute setup and my ears were starting to pickup on that. After this track I would leave the front and let others have my seat in anticipation for my absolute favorite speaker test by Blake.
Track nineteen (Nowhere Near) quickly came up and I ran to the front to listen intently for the ear rape to borrow Austin's term. I wrote that the high pitch ringing ear sting was missing its piercing quality. And that the later portions of the singers mid to high frequencies have a dip in volume. This was the dsp showing some issues.
Track twenty one is an overly well recorded orchestra. If you listen intently you should hear breaths before the brass instruments notes, shuffling of papers, accidental bumping of music stands, and a couple sneaker squeaks followed by and obvious one. I wrote down that the breathing and page turns were missing. This is a sign that detail or fidelity of the recording is being lost.
Twenty Two (Moon Trance) has, in addition to the awesome violin work, excellent recording of rain and a lighter lighting up which are both subtle additions to the music. I noticed that the SEOSR made the rain almost sound harsh and not so soft pitter patter that it should be.
Skipping to Track twenty four(Jambi) During the chorus each line of the lyrics is echoed via reverb in alternating channels. ("But I" left, "I would" right, "wish it" left, "all away" right, "if I" left, "thought I'd" right, "lose you" left, "just one day" right) I had a very hard time hearing these reverbs at all, let alone tell they were in alternating channels. I noted that the imaging wasn't too good. Right about now I would give up my spot in the front and let other people sit there.
Track thirty I noted a very clear guitar, even from back in the room.
And on track thirty three (Thanks to you) I wrote down that the base line was disappointingly quiet.

Overall: I thaugt the high frequencies were not as clear as the very high frequencies or even as clear as the mid range. Almost like there was a crossover that was badly setup and was mudding the spectrum. The imaging between left and right was lost when I knew it should be there. And that subtlety was almost completely lost and quick notes blended together on some tracks. I gave them a 77 on a 1-100 scale. And as this was sighted I had no doubt which were playing.

A-Blind: The first blend setup. I was ready. My ears were once again attuned after a large break between the first play through. For my 'what I was listening for on each track' see the SEOSR section.

starting out with number three I noted that the horns into the bass drums were muddy sounding.
number four (Lincoln) the choir sounded well mixed with other instruments and that they are not drown out at all.
At the front of the room again track nine had the air puff of breathing into the mice very pronounced. I noticed quite a few people comment to me that "was that in the recording, or are your mics feeding back. I laughed and said yes its in the recording.
ten (Home): female vocal is clear and not lost in the band; the piano sounded particularly clear, but I was getting slightly fatigued it seemed.
twelve (Go Insane): the ringing sounded good to me this time, and the extra bits of string at the top of the guitar hitting the neck from moving was easily audible. Bonus points for this speaker, as I hadn't ever heard that before.
track fifteen: simply put I wrote, no issues. I was listening intently to the quick picking this time. And then I went back in the room to get some refreshments and chat.
Blake (nineteen) once again had me rush to the front to try and have my ears pierced straight through. Sadly I wrote that it didn't have that oh so nice quality I know is there, but that the high note did not waver in its accent to the top.
Blake's second track (twenty) I noticed some great highs and the mid slap snare drum had some great presence to the song and was very clear and quick.
Tron (twenty one): I could hear the breathing this time, but it wasn't overly pronounced like I know it to be when a speaker is super clean and clear.
Lindsey's Moon Trance (twenty two) had the rain be very clear and the lighter effect was not overly powerful. A very nice playback of this track.
twenty three 'Somewhere' (Adam's track) the female vocal high notes were ringing in my ears and was very fatiguing. This was something I had not heard before with this track.
Around about this time I noticed that when sitting in the front row I could tell the high notes were coming from above me and the mids front right in front, and the lows were chest level. (I like to think I have very good ears) I wrote at the top of my sheet that I thought there was definitely three drivers. But then I second guessed myself that I had never heard the line array and knew it angled towards the ceiling a bit. That this might be what I am hearing. I didnt write anything down after this as I decided it was enough

Overall: I was fairly confident in the fact that it was the cats or the line array. I gave the speaker an 84 out of 100. Later on after hearing both B and C I decided this had to be the cats as it didn't have the clarity that I knew the Noesis has. But something to keep in mind. I had never seen the Danley's I didn't know what model they were, didn't know what they looked like, didn't know any of their design principals.... lol; I was confident I could pick out the cats and the noesis as I had heard them before in Andrews room..... but I had no clue as what the danley's were going to sound like..... wish I knew what they looked like.

B-Blind:: Another semi-long break, but much quicker than before. Something that I did not mention before was that before the playlist was run Jonathan, Adam, and I would check the levels of both left and right channel independently and the subs as well. This is something we kept up with before each playback. So I know for a fact it was consistent.

One started out and I could right away hear, what I called a harpsichord, to be very pronounced. Things were sounding good.
From the front of the room nine (Hey Hey) the sibilance was less pronounced, almost quieted. It was odd how much of it was missing.
Home (ten) I found the trumpet to be fatiguing.
twelve (Go Insane): I wrote again that the strings hitting the guitar neck was very evident, as I was now listening for this.
Skipping on down to Echo (seventeen: I noted a very clear clicking noise.
My favorite Blake track (nineteen) I didn't write anything down.... what was I thinking, but for twenty I noted that the high notes of the singer were not as piercing as they normally are.
Tron (twenty one) I could hear every little breath and paper turn, as well as all the squeaks. I was impressed.
twenty two - the rain was very evident and for twenty three the voices weren't fatiguing at all like the last speaker and well blended into the song.
Too bad that for Jambi (twenty four) the echo throwing wasn't evident at all.
I didn't note much after that for these speakers other than for Count of Tuscany (thirty eight) the voices were clear and the arps were as well.

Overall: This being only the second speaker I only had the first one to compare against and what memory I had of previous get togethers.I noted that they were very well consistent through the entire frequency spectrum and that there wasn't any crossover points evident from what I heard. I was grasping at straws here, but I wrote that its either that or that all the speakers are ported to the front aka noesis..... but that was unlikely as I didn't get the crisp crisp highs I expect of them. Again my complete lack of knowledge about the danleys worried me..... but something I came to realize half way through playback was that the sound overall sounded like it was coming from the ceiling. So I wrote down that these get a 95 rating from me and I am guessing they were the line arrays.

C-Blind: The third speaker was later in the day. I had narrowed it down to just the noesis and the danleys left. The danleys were worrying to me. About this time Austin was badgering me with the point source nonsense.... I didn't know what that was about. All I knew was that every 15 min or so I would hear 'point source' from him..... bloody annoying.

Track three (Robin Hood): the triangle is clear even through the trumpet parts.
that stupid harlem track I even wrote down that the timber of the maraca is distinguishable.... how foolish of me to even comment on this track, i'm inviting in the pants soilers at even mentioning it.
for number seven (Leaving on a Jet Plane) the highs were particularly distinct as were the rain stick and triangle.
Soul of a Man (eight) has the whasper to his voice missing from the song. Yes I made that up and its a good descriptive word for his voice.
Dispatch, nine, again had the sibilance evident, but I noted it was fairly under control and was not displeasing to my ears. This might have to do with the length of the listening for the day though.
Home ten had the tinkling jingle be very distinct and wasn't lost in the large band. The voices were also clearly heard over the caucus noise.
Go Insane twelve had the mid tone vocals be very clear sounding to me. At this point I retreated from the front like before.
Returning to the front in anticipation of having ear rape, Blake, nineteen, did not disappoint me this time and I got that piercing high note clearly evident within the crash. I also noted that the high vocals were very clear to me.
The second Blake track (twenty) I noted having a great harmony with the female singer. Even with the digital sounding processing to her voice.
twenty oneTron had every nuance evident. And Moon Trance (twenty two) was very detailed with both the rain sounds and the lighter.
Somewhere (twenty three): I noted a slight bump in volume in the mid/high vocals, but slightly less fatigue that previously.
Sadley, for Jambi (twenty four) I couldn't hear any echo shifting between channels.

Overall: I really like the detailed nuances but did not like the imaging that seamed to be missing. The ringing high tones were achieved, but not quite as crisp as I want/know/need them to be. I gave these a rating of 90. Later on I decided that these must be the Noesis by a process of elimination as when I evaluated D they were not quite as clear as them.

D-Blind: The last speaker of the night. I had heard 'point source' so many times by now I was getting grouchy. I also was trying to appeal to Andrew and Adam that it wasn't fair to make me/us guess what speakers were which if we didn't know what our choices were. Giving us a bank of 5 or 6 speaker pairs (Cats/Yorks/Noesis/Arrays/Danleys/Single 8's) to pick for four spots isn't fair...... Luckily they announced that this would be the last pair of speakers and they were the most point source like yet..... screw them....

The night was getting long, I like many others did not have the greatest amount of sleep the night before. As such, my notes are sparse.
Track six got mention from me this time for having some smooth slides and plucks remaining sharp, but still not being overpowering.
Leaving on a Jet Plane, seven, the triangle had a different pitch each time it was struck. Very Very detailed, something I had not heard previously.
Soul of a Man was eighth and the whasper to his voice was very distinct and not blurred together at all.
Skipping to ten, Home had the whistling section able to discern individual whistles from band members. Although the female vocals later on were slightly lost in the mix.
Go Insane had a twang to the strings that was audible at certain points, very good show track twelve.
Skipping right on down to good ole Blake nineteen: the high note, I had written, was not as high as I remembered it to be. Though again this might have been my ears getting tired of listening to high volumes the entire day.
Dance With Me (twenty) I did not find the female vocal as spectacular as before.
Moon Trance had audible rain and the lighter effect not being overly loud. (twenty two)
Jambi get a large nod this time. twenty four. I wrote down the the imaging of the echo after each line was supurb and I underlined it three times. Now thats saying something.

Overall: I really liked these and gave them a rating of 85. I didn't find them as good as the C set of speakers for highs, but had extremely detailed notes and precision. The imaging was also fantastic. My rating might not have been well thaught out as I was really just tired of listening by this point. I decided that these had to be the danleys as they didnt fit what I rememberd of the noesis. But really, I wasn't too sure. I didn't know what they looked like or their construction...... both C and D sounded clearly better than A and B, but I didn't know what to assign each. I eventually ended on these being the danleys and awarded C the leftover choice of noesis.



The Big Reveal: Boy was I happy that I got A and B correct. I was absolutely sure that they were them.... plus there might have been a side bet for 50$ with Jonathan that almost happened.....but we both didn't commit to.... I would have won.... shucks.... I don't think I was guessing with confidence on the last two sets, as I was very unsure of what those stinking danleys looked like. In the end I was 2 for 4. But I could have been 4 for 4 had I known the design of the Danleys, I think.... that lack of imaging would have gave it to me....


Great event, lets do it again.... now if only I can remember not to forget equipment at Andrew's place every time I go......
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post #94 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

and I'm still recovering emotionally from popalock's beatdown.
I think Carp enjoyed that more than anything else. biggrin.gif

Thanks for posting the frd file.
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post #95 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Yea, I blame Ben! wink.gif

and I am blame shifting:

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post #96 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:19 AM
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Archaea did you save any sweeps from the coaxials
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post #97 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:35 AM
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Adam,

I don't think we even measured all three. frown.gif We got bogged down and distracted in deciding to measure close mic or seating position. Then I got called downstairs with my mic to capture the blind meets FR charts IIRC. I'll verify on the laptop, but I don't think I have the three from upstairs.

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post #98 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Yea, I blame Ben! wink.gif

and I am blame shifting:


provided by does not equal suggested

FWIW the version on the video Jim linked in the other thread is just as bad when played really loud
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post #99 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

provided by does not equal suggested

FWIW the version on the video Jim linked in the other thread is just as bad when played really loud

lol...... so Jim is to blame for liking the track
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post #100 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Adam,

I don't think we even measured all three. frown.gif We got bogged down and distracted in deciding to measure close mic or seating position. IIRC. I'll verify on the laptop, but I don't think I have the three from upstairs.

Not a big deal just curious
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post #101 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 10:51 AM
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Wow, this thread is moving fast.

Reserved for speaker impressions.
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post #102 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 11:19 AM
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Great work on the measurements, Archea.

David Budo
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post #103 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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A few updates from my end:

-I've got a few pictures to pull off my phone while I'll be adding later.
-I've started adding addtional details in post 2, which will continue to be expanded as I have time
-I will be updating the first or second post to each attendeee's thoughts once we get a few coming in
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post #104 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Great work on the measurements, Archea.

+1, thanks much for taking the time for each of those man!
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post #105 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I only speak for myself, but I have no interest in any speaker that can't sound effortless at higher volumes. So that kind of comparison would have no interest to me.

When I evaluate a speaker, the question, "do they sound good at "normal" listening volumes?" is right up there with, "do they make sound when connected with speaker wire?" or "are the drivers physically damaged?" biggrin.gif
I sat around yesterday and did nothing at all but fool with my system. I just want to point out and I said this along time ago in the JTR thread, but I really don't think the Noeisis shine until or above reference and clearly this is my evaluation. I did some heavy listening yesterday and I just found them to sound so much cleaner and have more sparkle at reference and higher.
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post #106 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 11:56 AM
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Some speakers seem to thrive under power while others get harsh or uncomfortable sounding. Room acoustics..... definitely part of that equation.
I say that because under higher power levels you can be sure the interactions with the room are greater.

Not that this hasn't been ever mentioned before
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post #107 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 01:05 PM
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Wow, man - what a great time.

HUGE thanks to Andrew for hosting this incredible meet. What a great guy, great house, great room (well, rooms actually - I loved how the living room sounded too) great everything. I can't say enough about what a great host and nice guy Andrew is.

What is so great about Andrew's room for GTG's like this is that you can relax and talk to people at the bar but when you go up front you can't hear the people talking back there because of the volume we chose (-10). I thought the format was perfect. Before Saturday I thought the length and amount of songs and the song lengths were too long but it worked so well. It gave us plenty of time to move around seats and everyone to have a chance up front but also to go to the back and drink and talk during the songs we weren't as interested in. Perfect!

Another HUGE thanks to Austin for having us over Friday and to Craig John and DMark1, I'll post more about their rooms later. I really think myself, Jonathan, and Mike are really lucky because we got to experience all 4 rooms over the weekend.


Ok, as far as the impressions of the speakers here goes:


Chop's SEOS: As stated these weren't blind. IMO these have the potential to be the best of the bunch... and then some. The first few tracks I was floored. I was back in the room behind the couches near the bathroom and I thought the dynamics of the first song (Discombobulate) was more impressive/effortless/WOW sounding than any of the blind speakers. A few tracks in when coolgeeks female singer came on I was convinced that the Jake's speakers were going to be better than anything I would hear all day.

However, after a few more tracks it became clear that they were dialed in too bright and were a bit uneven in other frequencies. That is all fixable 100% (according to Mark Seaton because I asked him that yesterday) so once those behemoths are dialed in they are going to be un-fing-believable. cool.gifsmile.gif


Ok, on to the blind speakers. The only thing that I made sure was consistent on was that I was on the front row for song 34 -38. Haha, and that my ears were plugged for the Disturbed song.

My notes are terrible... meaning I hardly wrote anything. I'm looking at them now. I wrote on Speaker A at the top "ok, I'm drinking a lot now so my notes are.... minimal. I liked these speakers. A little laid back overall. On the few songs I know they were excellent but just short of that crystal clear addictive sound I like. I don't think these are my 212's."

Ok, speaker B I wrote, "still don't quite think they are my speakers - loved them though!! Liked them slightly better than A. Clearer and made me smile on Dream Theater"

For speaker C when the first track came on I immediately thought they sounded like how my 212's sound at home on the first song, Discombobulate. I was almost sure of it. The next 30 something tracks I'm not too familiar with (other than Tool and Within Temptation) so I mostly sat back at the bar behind the couches. These speakers got my attention from that part of the room more than any of the other speakers. For speakers A, B, and C I sat at the bar and drank and talked during most songs I don't know. This was the only set of speakers that I kept getting my attention brought back to them during conversations. I would be in mid sentence and suddenly I'd forget what i was saying and think damn these sound incredible. I went up to the front row again for the last few tracks and loved these speakers. I will say that speaker A and B sounded much closer to my preferences from the front row on the songs that I know very well. What I mean is that the gap between how much I liked C compared to A and B was narrowed when in the front row with "my music" compared to being behind both couches and hearing tunes I'm not as familiar with. Still, I liked C better than A or B from the sweet spot up front.

So, at this point I'm convinced that C is the Noesis. I knew early on that during speaker D's demo that speaker D would be the last because Andrew told me that they weren't going to put the single 8 in. So, I listened to the first 3 or 4 songs from back by the bathroom door (just like I did with A, B, and C) and didn't like them as much as C so I figured I'd call it a night and go BS and drink some more. I went all the way back to back part of the bar and didn't pay a ton of attention. However, I did go back to the front row for "my songs". What the hell. I loved what I heard. All I wrote on my notes for D was "LOVED DREAM THEATER!!" followed by "What the hell!!"

At this point I got up, threw my hands up, and said I give up. I figured C was the 212's and now D was sounding so good too so I really didn't know what to guess for the speakers.

So, before the answers were given out I would say C was by far my favorite from further back in the room. From the sweet spot with music I know very well C was my favorite but by a much closer margin and D confused the hell out of me because it did not "grab my attention" from further back in the room but gave C a run for it's money in the sweet spot.


The best sounding song of the night wasn't on any of these speakers. Metallica's Orion played on the SEOS speakers upstairs was my absolute favorite and best sounding song I heard all weekend. Haha, now in fairness this is my all time favorite song and I can't critically listen to it when it's cranked up (and it was cranked up biggrin.gif) because my head is too busy banging - I can't help it and I'm sure I look like an idiot but it's I can't stop it from happening when a song like that is really loud. If Orion was included in the blind song list it would not have been good - I might have injured my neck sitting in the front row. biggrin.gif


So, am I a bit sheepish and embarrassed that I've been touting for so long how much I love the Noesis? Yes!! Ha, but it doesn't really bother me. Nothing I heard sounded like what I hear in my room on the Noesis. I am NOT saying that I have some kind of incredible room with great acoustics (ahem... that would be Craig John...) I am saying that the sound in my room with the 212's is what I am used to. Like the other Noesis owners I am very curious what the Danley's would sound like in my room!!

Now..... to convince Brandon to make a horrible drive out to KC some day.... biggrin.gif



One thing is for certain. The more GTG's I go to the worse I get at doing reviews.

I just read back though this.

It sucked. biggrin.giftongue.gif
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post #108 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

***I brought up the subject because I've done a comparison between my Crest ProLite 2.0 and a multichannel solid state amp (honestly don't remember if it was my old Sherwood A-965 or my new ATI AT2007, but it doesn't matter as both are standard solid-state amps with low noise and low source impedance) on my mains (Pioneer EX), which have this impedance curve:
.

Very interesting insight, thanks for sharing. I know the latest "V2" IPR amps had quite a few changes from the original series according to JD, but I don't know the exact details. I'd be happy to compare in a separate experiment vs. something like my Sherbourn 7-350. I own the Yorkville U215's which I'm not sure how similar they would be to the Danleys but should exhibit similar behavior I'd imagine.

While I couldn't find an impedance curve for the U215's online, my gut feeling is that they'd be a good test of the IPR7500's fidelity into non-resistive loads.

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post #109 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 01:13 PM
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Well the timing was good. Major snowstorm coming here in PA tomorrow. 6-12 inches they are saying

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Wow, man - what a great time.

HUGE thanks to Andrew for hosting this incredible meet. What a great guy, great house, great room (well, rooms actually - I loved how the living room sounded too) great everything. I can't say enough about what a great host and nice guy Andrew is.

What is so great about Andrew's room for GTG's like this is that you can relax and talk to people at the bar but when you go up front you can't hear the people talking back there because of the volume we chose (-10). I thought the format was perfect. Before Saturday I thought the length and amount of songs and the song lengths were too long but it worked so well. It gave us plenty of time to move around seats and everyone to have a chance up front but also to go to the back and drink and talk during the songs we weren't as interested in. Perfect!

Another HUGE thanks to Austin for having us over Friday and to Craig John and DMark1, I'll post more about their rooms later. I really think myself, Jonathan, and Mike are really lucky because we got to experience all 4 rooms over the weekend.


Ok, as far as the impressions of the speakers here goes:

Carp - Man, it was awesome finally meeting you as well. Thanks for the detailed review and kind words! I'm glad you had a great time and hopefully it was worth the anxiety of the flight both ways. Hope to see you guys again soon. smile.gif
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post #111 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 01:52 PM
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So, at this point I'm convinced that C is the Noesis. I knew early on that during speaker D's demo that speaker D would be the last because Andrew told me that they weren't going to put the single 8 in. So, I listened to the first 3 or 4 songs from back by the bathroom door (just like I did with A, B, and C) and didn't like them as much as C so I figured I'd call it a night and go BS and drink some more. I went all the way back to back part of the bar and didn't pay a ton of attention. However, I did go back to the front row for "my songs". What the hell. I loved what I heard. All I wrote on my notes for D was "LOVED DREAM THEATER!!" followed by "What the hell!!"

The fact you used CAPS in your notes for speakers D (aka 212), it's good enough for me to be in denial of those darn Danleys wink.gif

Now where is Beastaudio?? Brandon, if you're reading this...I need you to make another trip up here in a couple of weeks biggrin.gif

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post #112 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:19 PM
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Hey fellas.

Danley SM60F...would this be the reworked "home theatre" version of the SM60 from Danley?? He had made mention here and there about a year or so ago about the SM60 having a very flat response and maybe changing things up so that it was more suitable for the aforementioned purpose.

Thanks in advance.

They were not the reworked version. The SM60 has either an "f" or "m" designation and the sm60f's are the more full ranger/widely used outside of pro application option. To my knowledge Danley has not reworked an HT version yet.

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That really just goes to show how a blind test can mess with your mind. Beast owns the Danley's and guest them wrong, both Reefdvr & GoodDoc own the Noesis and guess them wrong and I know that Archaea has heard the Noesis a lot and he also guessed them wrong too. And the same goes for Carp.....lol

Yea it was tough man, but I have good reasons for the calls on each speaker. Now I just need to find my damn notes. Anyone have a random pair of meet notes make it home with them somehow? They say Beast on the top and are mostly gibberish but I know what I meant by most of the comments I made. Also, Either Jon or Carp, one of you have my contacts in your eyes....Haha. Woke up and never found those either. I am still reeling from the drive home yesterday but plan to get all my thoughts down this evening. So far thanks to all that have posted. I just had to catch up from the whole weekend, something like 500 posts between the two threads. Got everything moved back into the theater as well. Now what to do with this 24" woofer........biggrin.gif

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post #113 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:20 PM
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Well, it was another excellent g2g hosted by the most excellent primate I have ever met. It is amazing to me how Andrew has managed to amass such a great group of individuals so many times to get up and enjoy some quality setups. It is a hell of a drive for me but getting the opportunity once again to break it up by hanging out in Austin's theater the night before certainly helps out. How people take cross-country trips is beyond me. 10 hours is a haul, and enough for me...for sure. It was also very fun to meet the DC metro crowd as well. Got to meet some quality folks there too! Makes me sad there aren't more around my way, but as has been said if I lived too close to all the guys at the g2g, not only would it potentially be detrimental to my livelihood, I feel like I would have some incredible friends outside of the hobby completely. It was a huge honor just to be a part of it.

Some random thoughts before the serious stuff:

~Andrew's trash guy is going to think he is an alchy...I think we came close to filling his 55 gallon recycling canister. Great beers, great times! I was worried my beers weren't cold enough when I got there, but it didn't take too long for that to change smile.gif

~Mad Props to Ben, Adam, Chop, Matt, Andrew again, Rick, Mark, and all the guys that put in way more time before the event than I did. They made it happen, I just did my best to help where I could. Loading up several speakers was pretty darn easy. Ben's prowess on the electronics is top-notch and without his setup we would have had way more issues than me not being able to figure out how to assign the video on the Marantz which I own and still had issues travelling around inside the sub-menus. At least I managed to make it work with some help smile.gif

~As blind as the meet was, I feel like I caught the most BS from the likes of the moving crew. They knew I was slightly on edge having some skin in the game and they didn't let me forget that at any point in the night. I had at least point in each session where Austin would find me to make sure and point out that he felt like the speaker in question was definitely the most point-sourcy of them all so far... It certainly didn't help any of my decisions. Thanks bro smile.gif

~I frikkin love Andrews room. As good as I feel mine sounds most of the time, I don't know whether it is lack of a "real" back wall or what, but he has an incredible space. It's his own fault for building it out the way he did to accommodate a phalanx of speaker geeks, I don't feel bad for you at all man, I feel bad for Jodi, Haha wink.gif Ok on the real ish

SEOSR
Well, as you can tell from the pics, these things are intimidating!!! When I was helping set these up by standing on top of Andrew''s DTS10's to mount the last 15" cab on top, where I barely had enough room between my hand and the ceiling, I knew they would be a treat. I even got down and checked my teeth in the SEOS24 to make sure I didn't have any remnants of my egg mcmuffin from 4:30 AM when Austin decided to play some bass tones to wake us all up to hit the road to get there in time for setup. Anyways, these speakers were incredible. For Chop to have literally flashed the DSP's about 20 minutes before go time (aka about 1.5 hours late....j/k bro biggrin.gif ) is impressive. I know there is more refinement to come, but damn, when we watched the Book of Eli gatlin gun scene, I literally felt like shards of glass were actually penetrating my own head. I didn't survive that gunfight for sure....

Cat 12c's
I have to say my guess on this was a bit biased. I had to relieve myself at one point during the listening session and with Andrew's amp rack being in the pisser, I noticed the IPR that we were using to power the passive setups was turned off. I am observant to a fault sometimes and I immediately drew the conclusion that this first offering was the CBT arrays since they were using their own amp. Had I not noticed that, I would potentially have changed my mind. The presentation was still great. I wrote in my notes that there were certain nuances that i noticed with these that I didn't with the SEOSR's. I did notice the very top end was lacking compared to what I was used to with the Danley's and their ability to run to 24khz. On the Blake track they didn't quite get there for me on the high shrill that really pushes a speaker's top end to the brink. They still did well, and had some great areas that they excelled in. At this point I was also just giddy and nerve-racked because I already knew how hard the day was going to be trying to discern VERY small nuances in each of these speakers. Incredible.

Selah CBT45's
Wow is all I can say. The top end was great, and what I felt was missing from the Cat's which is surprising as those little tweeters must have some serious strength in numbers. No chance one or two of those could have been that smooth on their own. Having my own set of LS-6 lines arrays, the sound was familiar, but my opinion was already made after the mishap in the bathroom with the previous setup. These CBT's were VERY surprising to me. Clean, smooth, some of the best vocals of the night on tracks. There was one part towards the end of count of tuscany that some background instruments didn't quite come out as much as I wanted, which I noted was a difference so far from the other two. The high part in Blake's track just shimmered perfectly though, and the presentation was wonderful front to back of the theater, which you would assume from a line array. Hindsight they did carry VERY well and better than speaker A which once again is a nice trait of line array designs. These little guys are impressive, I would have liked to see how they did at reference and above to see if they could hold together against the other 3 guys which I know are very capable that far up. Definitely the best looking speaker of the day to boot.

My babies (Danley SM60f's)

As others have said, I spent the most time really listening to these. I LOVED them. The main note I wrote at the end of the session was that they had the most presence, and enveloping soundstage. The low end was ridiculously impressive, the high sheen on the Blake track was there, and the vocals and everything else was spot on. The bottom end is what threw me though. I saw the screen oscillating on certain tracks for the first time I had seen that night thus far. Having my setup always with subs, I didn't think they were that capable and thus my guess went to the most capable of that type of bottom end, the Cat12's. After learning the true identity of the Danley's I wasn't disappointed as most of my notes had them basically split decision with speaker B (CBT's) The CBT'd did do some things better and the Danley's did others better. The Cat's were my favorite at the last g2g by a long shot, so it was only logical that I might like them again at this one, thus my guess. In the end, the CBT's and Danley's were my top two, but with the nod going to the Danley's, even though I thought they were the Cats. Most presence, most attention grabbing, best presentation of the night is what I wrote after several tracks. The background instruments on Count of Tuscany were much more prominent than the previous setup. I literally jumped out of my seat jamming to the Oblivion end track as well.

JTR Noesis

I was very surprised this time around with the Noesis. The top end on paper is as good if not better than the Danley's, however I felt they were 3rd on the list for that nice shimmer you look for in a speaker's high freqs like on the Blake track. The BMS compression driver seems certainly capable of it, I just didn't get as much of it as I expected. Having heard the Noesis before though, and the sound signature that so many love, I was pretty dead set on my decision that these were the 212's. Obviously, it was the only one I was dead set on as it was the only one I got right. I had a chance to sit next to carp for our last two Dream Theater tracks and although I know he was sweating as much as I was about picking his own speaker as his favorite, after both tracks I was just 100% impressed and realized at that point that there was no reason to really say anything bad about any of the setups we heard that day. It truly was nerve racking to have your own up there, but in the end I am glad I did smile.gif The Noesis were just so clean through the entire tracklist, it almost was as if they were a shade sterile in parts. The dynamics were there, but they didn't have that "Draw you in" like the B and C offerings had to them. At this point I wish I had my notes so I could comment more on what I heard with these, but my memory of this part of the night has seemed to slipped somewhat for some reason... :beer:

Coaxial offerings

Plain and simple, I liked the Beyma's best here, but they are mine, so I was obviously biased here. Yes they were a little bright, but I felt they threw the best sound out, and even without a pad on the top end would be the absolute best for a surround type application. The top end a little hot would actually be pretty good if you are sitting slightly off axis, it would bring it right to where it needs to be. I wish the emmy build had the resistors Adam popped in last night to give them a better shot, but for a friggin $150, they are really just about impossible to beat from any commercial offering I have heards, sans some of the JBL 83xx type speakers.

Stereo Integrity 24" Megatron

Stupid, just stupid. When we were running the 80-2hz sweeps upstairs while the guys were downstairs, it still pressurized the room and was just plain incredible. The behemoth is sitting downstairs in my theater right now just BEGGING me to build a box out for it right now. Too bad it has to go back to SI so Nick and send it to Josh for testing...That thing was just fun and it was a great surprise not just for the Philly crowd but for the DC crowd as well. I have a video of some excursion sweeps we did at Austin's house but I don't know the best way to get it uploaded. I don't have a youtube account or anything like that. All I know is the driver was clean, and mad impressive. I want 10.....or so.

So I got a little long-winded here, but I had to make up for my review from the last one. AVS actually just made my font smaller from typing to much so I guess I should cut it off here. Man I had a good time!!!!! The drive is easy, when it means that much fun over a weekend. I think we should make this an MLK tradition, however old man winter was exceptionally good to us, and I think anyone in the NE can attest to that right about now as you are all getting socked-in. I would have loved to hang around and seen CG's spot as well as hear Andrew's "Normal" setup with the Yorks in full action, but that can wait until next time I guess. Just another reason to head up that way and hang with all you find Gents one more time.

I need to find more maniacs around my parts. Lesson of the weekend right there.... cool.giftongue.gif
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post #114 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:29 PM
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WOW awesome event and read guys! biggrin.gif

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post #115 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

Hey fellas.

Danley SM60F...would this be the reworked "home theatre" version of the SM60 from Danley?? He had made mention here and there about a year or so ago about the SM60 having a very flat response and maybe changing things up so that it was more suitable for the aforementioned purpose.

Thanks in advance.

They were not the reworked version. The SM60 has either an "f" or "m" designation and the sm60f's are the more full ranger/widely used outside of pro application option. To my knowledge Danley has not reworked an HT version yet.

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That really just goes to show how a blind test can mess with your mind. Beast owns the Danley's and guest them wrong, both Reefdvr & GoodDoc own the Noesis and guess them wrong and I know that Archaea has heard the Noesis a lot and he also guessed them wrong too. And the same goes for Carp.....lol

Yea it was tough man, but I have good reasons for the calls on each speaker. Now I just need to find my damn notes. Anyone have a random pair of meet notes make it home with them somehow? They say Beast on the top and are mostly gibberish but I know what I meant by most of the comments I made. Also, Either Jon or Carp, one of you have my contacts in your eyes....Haha. Woke up and never found those either. I am still reeling from the drive home yesterday but plan to get all my thoughts down this evening. So far thanks to all that have posted. I just had to catch up from the whole weekend, something like 500 posts between the two threads. Got everything moved back into the theater as well. Now what to do with this 24" woofer........biggrin.gif

it also didnt help that andrew, austin and I were activily messing with people

"sounds like a point source"....

there was a pile of papers left on the bar, you notes might have been there assuming andrew didnt toss them yet.
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post #116 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:37 PM
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Nah, they made it upstairs to the couch on the side of living room. tucked in with the beyma's but from there, I don't know where they went....Poo

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post #117 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

The fact you used CAPS in your notes for speakers D (aka 212), it's good enough for me to be in denial of those darn Danleys wink.gif

Now where is Beastaudio?? Brandon, if you're reading this...I need you to make another trip up here in a couple of weeks biggrin.gif


It was a weird feeling listening to DT on speaker D. I've never had the feeling of getting mad that I was loving what I was hearing before. That completely threw off what I thought I knew about each speaker. It wasn't a back to the drawing board feeling, it was more of a screw this I have no idea what's what so I'm gonna go steal another one of Brandon's beers, haha. biggrin.gif

Still, at that point if someone had said I could take home either speaker C or D I would have grabbed C!!
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post #118 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:39 PM
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Oh and yes, I was getting screwed with possibly the most out of everyone. You put skin the game and that was the treatment I got.....Haha. Friends like these, eh Donnie?!?! I think Austin made it a POINT to find me during every speaker and inform how "point source-ish" that particular one sounded....

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post #119 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 02:49 PM
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post #120 of 989 Old 01-20-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

My favorite thing about the GTG was taunting Carp on every blind test...."Hey Sheldon, those single 8's sound fantastic huh". Lots of fun bud, you were a great sport about it smile.gif


Hahaha, you also took it well when I would respond by calling you a d*ck! biggrin.gif I think the quote was, "I can't believe these have such a huge sound from such a small speaker!!!" biggrin.gif

It only made it worse when the single 8's somehow went missing from the living room! Good stuff. smile.gif


Basically my mood during the blind listening was a combination of nervous/fun/frustrated/intoxicated/confused all at the same time. Interesting mix and made me an easy target!! biggrin.gif
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