January 18th Loudspeaker GTG results thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:16 AM
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Fun and interesting read guys!!! It looks like all the prep and hard work paid off. Great read.
Also, thanks for posting the demo tracks. biggrin.gif

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Old 01-22-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Should I keep them and not move to another Danley offering to satisfy the sickness, yes. I would have already ordered one if I didn't have a little sumpin cookin' on the back burner right now wink.gif

Another Danley offering? From what I have heard, it seems that the SM60F is the most refined and has HF greater extension. Is Danley coming out with there HiFi version of the SM60F that has been Mentioned by Tom Danley?
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Fair enough, and I don't mean to rain on what appears to have been a good day for all involved. Had I been nearby, I would've loved to attend.

Often solving one issue raises another. Loudspeakers with passive crossovers are usually designed with the assumption that they'll be driven from an amp with low source impedance.

Many Class D amps (and most tube amps) violate that assumption. However, source impedance for Class D and tube amps varies all over the place, so a loudspeaker designer can't really design for high source impedance.
IME, peaks that may amount to a couple dB in the midrange are pretty audible. Remember the original Sunfire amps, with "voltage source" and "current source" binding posts? The latter just had a resistor in-line to raise the source impedance of the amp, and color the midrange of most speakers.

You may want to try a level-matched comparison, into speakers with wide impedance swings. If you still have access to the Danleys, it would also be interesting to see FR when driven by the IPR vs. FR when driven by any old solid state amp (separate or receiver, doesn't really matter).

I brought up the subject because I've done a comparison between my Crest ProLite 2.0 and a multichannel solid state amp (honestly don't remember if it was my old Sherwood A-965 or my new ATI AT2007, but it doesn't matter as both are standard solid-state amps with low noise and low source impedance) on my mains (Pioneer EX), which have this impedance curve:



Levels were matched at 1kHz with a cheap multimeter, and the match was effected using the ProLite's level controls. With music there were differences that were detectable in sighted listening. With pink noise the differences were obvious to the point that a blind listen would not be needed, with the extra midrange energy caused by interaction between the load and the amp very apparent. That was also easy to verify using an iPhone-based RTA.

Now, not all Class D amps have the same issue. Another time I did the same comparison on my nearfield speakers, which have this impedance curve:

(Note the scale: this speaker has more impedance variation over the audible range than the one above.)

The reference solid state amp was a Parasound Zamp v.3, and levels were matched to each Class D amp using the Zamp's level controls. The Class D amps were a dual Hypex UcD180-based unit with a switch-mode power supply, and an ICEpower 50ASX2 based unit, both designed to give flat FR into non-resistive loads. There were no differences observed.

Now, in all fairness it's entirely possible that the bigger, long-delayed IPR amps have a higher switching frequency and/or feedback loops to maintain constant FR regardless of load a la Hypex and current-gen ICEpower. Perhaps JD if he's still around will chime in. My experience is only with the Crest ProLite 2.0, which is basically a slightly beefed-up and un-LED'ed IPR1600 in a less gaudy chassis. But my experience with the PL2.0 is that it great for subs given the power/energy efficiency/price/input sensitivity, but that it sounds basically like a massively powerful triode amp on speakers with passive crossovers and thus complex impedance curves.
You're not seriously conflating the wire scam with the fact of high source impedance amplifiers interacting with the driven load and changing their frequency response, are you?

There's a reason many early Class D adopters came from the tube amp crowd. Most Class D amps - including the Crest ProLite 2.0 - have the same technical flaw as tube amps: high source impedance, which leads to non-flat FR when driving actual loudspeakers. So they're basically a cheap, energy-efficient, and stable way to get "tube sound." And that's very different from your Seatons, where the crossover was designed expressly based on measurements of those specific amp modules driving those specific drive-units in that specific cabinet. High source impedance isn't a big deal when one can control for it. The issue comes up when one can't, as in a speaker with a passive crossover.

Thanks for your input on this. I'm guessing the Danley set was affected more by this than the JTR based on impedance curves that I've seen. I used my own Marantz multi-channel amp to bi-amp the arrays. At 200 watts into 4 ohms everyone else on Saturday had significantly more headroom available with the Peavey / Crown / DSP amps - it was a fun challenge!

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Old 01-22-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexar View Post

Another Danley offering? From what I have heard, it seems that the SM60F is the most refined and has HF greater extension. Is Danley coming out with there HiFi version of the SM60F that has been Mentioned by Tom Danley?

Not that I am aware of, I would definitely be interested if so. the sm60f does VERY well in room, and yes, it does have more HF extension up top, I just want to try some other things and if I don't think they do as well, I will come right back to the 60f's no questions asked. I doubt I will leave the synergy horn design though period.

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Old 01-22-2014, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

So I'm trying to wrap my head around what guys mean by the 212 sounding a bit sterile...as in lacking excitement and not too inspiring?


Something like that... I don't know how to describe it. On the omnimic measurments the Danley's were a few db's higher than the other speakers from around 2khz and up if I remember right similar to what audyssey does to my Noesis in my own room:


Capture2_zps781309fa.png


This is in my room from my main LP, 1/12 smoothing. The red line is with Audyssey on.

With Audyssey on the sound is very impressive and got my attention similar to what the Danley's did at the GTG. However, over time it seemed fatiguing and I realized I kept wanting to turn the volume down so I don't use Audyssey anymore. Without Audyssey the sound is never fatiguing and I can listen forever, ha, and sometimes do.

At the same time in my room the sound is never sterile like i thought it was AT TIMES at the GTG so who knows.

Oh yeah, and the Danley's were not in the least fatiguing like what Audyssey does to the Noesis in my room so who knows. The reality is I'll never know if I really would prefer the Danley's unless I can hear them in my room to compare to the Noesis.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Something like that... I don't know how to describe it. On the omnimic measurments the Danley's were a few db's higher than the other speakers from around 2khz and up if I remember right similar to what audyssey does to my Noesis in my own room:


Capture2_zps781309fa.png


This is in my room from my main LP, 1/12 smoothing. The red line is with Audyssey on.

With Audyssey on the sound is very impressive and got my attention similar to what the Danley's did at the GTG. However, over time it seemed fatiguing and I realized I kept wanting to turn the volume down so I don't use Audyssey anymore. Without Audyssey the sound is never fatiguing and I can listen forever, ha, and sometimes do.

At the same time in my room the sound is never sterile like i thought it was AT TIMES at the GTG so who knows.

Oh yeah, and the Danley's were not in the least fatiguing like what Audyssey does to the Noesis in my room so who knows. The reality is I'll never know if I really would prefer the Danley's unless I can hear them in my room to compare to the Noesis.

Carp - My room has a natural roll off above 10k (especially with the AT screen in place) which may be what you're referring to as sounding different. Without an EQ applied they may be a bit less bright (or dull depending on how you see it) which is probably what you're hearing. Turning Audyssey back on brings that area right back up to flat - which sometimes I prefer and sometimes I don't.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Carp - My room has a natural roll off above 10k (especially with the AT screen in place) which may be what you're referring to as sounding different. Without an EQ applied they may be a bit less bright (or dull depending on how you see it) which is probably what you're hearing. Turning Audyssey back on brings that area right back up to flat - which sometimes I prefer and sometimes I don't.

Gotcha, that could be what's going on - do you know if the omni is accurate above 10 khz?
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Gotcha, that could be what's going on - do you know if the omni is accurate above 10 khz?

It's calibrated to make the response flat so the accuracy above 10K is good. If you try to EQ to flat when measuring off-axis it will be too bright.

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Old 01-22-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

The DIY section is usually a good place to spot Andrew's G2g's. You do kind of have to be on top of it. This one in particular was almost booked before it even got posted about as many of us talk offline often. This one was special as we limited it to a very small group, so everyone had a good chance to really get a good listen to the offerings. Other meets are much bigger, and easier to get in, but you still have to have an inside man, or just stay on the lookout biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Since he is also in PA an hosted this event, you can go to Gorilla83's profile and select "Follow Member". You will then get notifications of all his posts either by e-mail or website only. This will give you a heads up, but you might get overwhelmed reading all his posts. smile.gif

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the insight. Looks like I may have to just follow the DIY section and keep a closer eye on the speaker and sub sections.
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Old 01-22-2014, 05:11 PM
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Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
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Old 01-22-2014, 05:49 PM
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Looks like you guys had a pretty good time! I wish I could have gone. Nice job on the hardware, setup, and write-ups too, as it looks like it was as much work as it was fun.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:19 PM
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AVScience Store is looking into getting Danley.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:27 PM
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:41 PM
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Sterile means clean.... exceptionally clean.

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Old 01-22-2014, 08:20 PM
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Just added my comments at my reserved post, quoted here.
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Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

If you didn't know I was in charge of mixing the music all together and I had near 100 hours listening to the tracks... so I was most likely the most familiar with the content. This was probably evident to the attendees as I complained about not liking the music anymore.... But before I get to my notes I do need to give credit where it is due, I didn't do all the work, not even close. Adam helped me out greatly in gathering the suggestions from everyone and even sending me the tracks he had copies of. This helped me out greatly as I was very pressed for time in the months leading up to the event.

And of course I have to thank Andrew for once again somehow convincing his wife to vacate their house for a day and a half. (Thanks Jodi, hopefully we didn't leave too large a mess) Jim also I am grateful for, managing the money/food/drinks. Also everyone who lugged out equipment and put some skin in the game..... it was havoc on your nerves and might put you out money in the future.

For my review of the day I am going to progress in order of the proceedings. I'll make frequent reference to the track numbers as I list the notes I made on each one, so here it is for reference:
Code:
Track  Start Time    End Time                Genre           Artist                                  Song
1       0:00:00         2:25:00         Classical       Sherlock Holmes OST                     Discombobulate
2       2:27:00         5:23:00         Classical       John Williams 40 Years of Film Music    Close Encounters of the Third Kind. (intro)
3       5:25:00         8:32:00         Classical       Robin Hood Prince of Thieves            Main Theme
4       8:33:00         10:51:00        Classical       The Island                              My Name is Lincoln
5       10:53:00        13:38:00        Soul            Rebecca Pidgeon                         Spanish Harlem
6       13:40:00        16:42:00        Country         Eagles Gone Country                     Hotel California
7       16:44:00        18:22:00        Folk            John Denver                             Leaving on a Jet Plane
8       18:24:00        20:21:00        Folk            Ramblin Jack Elliot                     Soul Of A Man
9       20:24:00        21:39:00        Folk Indie      Dispatch                                Hey Hey
10      21:40:00        24:15:00        Folk Indie      Edwarde Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes  Home
11      24:16:00        26:55:00        Pop             Madonna                                 The Power of Good-Bye
12      26:57:00        29:40:00        Rock            Fleetwood Mac                           Go Insane (Live 1997)
13      29:42:00        31:28:00        Rock            Fleetwood Mac                           Tusk (Live 1997)
14      31:29:00        32:44:00        Rock            The Cars                                Since You're Gone
15      32:46:00        35:39:00        Rock            Nils Lofgren                            Keith dont go
16      35:40:00        37:33:00        Rock Alt        Collective Soul                         December
17      37:34:00        38:47:00        Rock Alt        Incubus                                 Echo
18      38:49:00        40:04:00        Rock Alt        Puscifer                                Dear Brother
19      40:06:00        43:04:00        Electronic      Blake Reary                             Nowhere Near
20      43:06:00        44:39:00        Electronic      Blake Reary                             Dance With Me (Blake Rearys Sky High Mix)
21      44:41:00        46:01:00        Classical       Daft Punk                               Tron Legacy Overture
22      46:03:00        47:03:00        Electronic      Lindsey Stirling                        Moon Trance
23      47:05:00        49:48:00        Symphonic Metal Within Temptation                       Somewhere
24      49:50:00        51:22:00        Rock Alt        Tool                                    Jambi
25      51:25:00        53:43:00        Rock Alt        Tool                                    Undertow
26      53:44:00        55:48:00        Rock Electronic Pendulum                                The Tempest
27      55:50:00        58:17:00        Classical       Peer Gynt                               Suite from Hall of the Mountain King
28      58:19:00        60:17:00        Rock Industrial Trent Reznor                            Carbon Prevails
29      60:19:00        63:22:00        Rock Latin      Gustavo Santaolalla                     The Last of Us
30      63:24:00        65:41:00        Rock Prog       Dire Straits                            What It Is
31      65:43:00        69:15:00        Rock Prog       Pink Floyd                              Time
32      69:18:00        71:16:00        Rock Prog       Styx                                    Renegade
33      71:18:00        72:20:00        Rock Soul       Boz Scaggs                              Thanks to You
34      72:22:00        74:20:00        Metal Cello     Apocalyptica                            One
35      74:22:00        75:16:00        Metal Doom      Woods of Ypres                          Finality
36      75:18:00        76:12:00        Metal Heavy     Disturbed                               Inside the Fire
37      76:14:00        77:22:00        Metal Prog      Dream Theater                           Another Day
38      77:24:00        80:46:00        Metal Prog      Dream Theater                           The Count of Tuscany
39      80:48:00        82:14:00        Metalcore       Atreyu                                  An Interlude
40      82:16:00        88:12:00        Trance Pop      Oblivion OST                            Oblivion (feat. Susanne Sundfør)

SEOSR: The first setup took a few hours (3.5) to setup, but it was by far the largest and most complicated. Congrats to Chop for losing sleep building it the few nights before hand.

Starting out the first track (Discombobulate) I wrote down that the high tones were getting drown out by the mid range frequencies. As I could come to find throughout my listen the frequency range needs some refinement, but I am getting ahead of myself.
Track four (Lincoln) I had a note written down saying that the choir sounded quieter compared to the rest of the track. Even though this was the first listen through of the day I was sort of confident that this was true.
Track five (harlem) I hate this track and refuse to comment further.
Skipping on down the track list I get to number nine (Hey Hey) This is about where I would meander my way to the front couch and listen for a few songs. I wrong that the t-sh sound in the lyrics had lost some clarity that I knew was there. And to go along with that that the sibilance in the recording was almost missing. As I knew it was in the recording I was counting that as a negative, even though I can't stand sibilance normally. I also had written that the mic puffs from the singer were very significant and powerful.
Track ten is a favorite of mine (Home). I really like the females accent, but sadly I was disappointed that her voice was slightly lost in the large 11 piece band that plays along with her.
Skipping a track I wrote for number twelve (Go Insane) that the high tones are ringing and that sweeps from low->mid->high->very high frequencies have this eq balance hot---low-->hot->low->high This was where I started to question if the dsp was tuned well enough for the day. I knew it was a last minute setup and my ears were starting to pickup on that. After this track I would leave the front and let others have my seat in anticipation for my absolute favorite speaker test by Blake.
Track nineteen (Nowhere Near) quickly came up and I ran to the front to listen intently for the ear rape to borrow Austin's term. I wrote that the high pitch ringing ear sting was missing its piercing quality. And that the later portions of the singers mid to high frequencies have a dip in volume. This was the dsp showing some issues.
Track twenty one is an overly well recorded orchestra. If you listen intently you should hear breaths before the brass instruments notes, shuffling of papers, accidental bumping of music stands, and a couple sneaker squeaks followed by and obvious one. I wrote down that the breathing and page turns were missing. This is a sign that detail or fidelity of the recording is being lost.
Twenty Two (Moon Trance) has, in addition to the awesome violin work, excellent recording of rain and a lighter lighting up which are both subtle additions to the music. I noticed that the SEOSR made the rain almost sound harsh and not so soft pitter patter that it should be.
Skipping to Track twenty four(Jambi) During the chorus each line of the lyrics is echoed via reverb in alternating channels. ("But I" left, "I would" right, "wish it" left, "all away" right, "if I" left, "thought I'd" right, "lose you" left, "just one day" right) I had a very hard time hearing these reverbs at all, let alone tell they were in alternating channels. I noted that the imaging wasn't too good. Right about now I would give up my spot in the front and let other people sit there.
Track thirty I noted a very clear guitar, even from back in the room.
And on track thirty three (Thanks to you) I wrote down that the base line was disappointingly quiet.

Overall: I thaugt the high frequencies were not as clear as the very high frequencies or even as clear as the mid range. Almost like there was a crossover that was badly setup and was mudding the spectrum. The imaging between left and right was lost when I knew it should be there. And that subtlety was almost completely lost and quick notes blended together on some tracks. I gave them a 77 on a 1-100 scale. And as this was sighted I had no doubt which were playing.

A-Blind: The first blend setup. I was ready. My ears were once again attuned after a large break between the first play through. For my 'what I was listening for on each track' see the SEOSR section.

starting out with number three I noted that the horns into the bass drums were muddy sounding.
number four (Lincoln) the choir sounded well mixed with other instruments and that they are not drown out at all.
At the front of the room again track nine had the air puff of breathing into the mice very pronounced. I noticed quite a few people comment to me that "was that in the recording, or are your mics feeding back. I laughed and said yes its in the recording.
ten (Home): female vocal is clear and not lost in the band; the piano sounded particularly clear, but I was getting slightly fatigued it seemed.
twelve (Go Insane): the ringing sounded good to me this time, and the extra bits of string at the top of the guitar hitting the neck from moving was easily audible. Bonus points for this speaker, as I hadn't ever heard that before.
track fifteen: simply put I wrote, no issues. I was listening intently to the quick picking this time. And then I went back in the room to get some refreshments and chat.
Blake (nineteen) once again had me rush to the front to try and have my ears pierced straight through. Sadly I wrote that it didn't have that oh so nice quality I know is there, but that the high note did not waver in its accent to the top.
Blake's second track (twenty) I noticed some great highs and the mid slap snare drum had some great presence to the song and was very clear and quick.
Tron (twenty one): I could hear the breathing this time, but it wasn't overly pronounced like I know it to be when a speaker is super clean and clear.
Lindsey's Moon Trance (twenty two) had the rain be very clear and the lighter effect was not overly powerful. A very nice playback of this track.
twenty three 'Somewhere' (Adam's track) the female vocal high notes were ringing in my ears and was very fatiguing. This was something I had not heard before with this track.
Around about this time I noticed that when sitting in the front row I could tell the high notes were coming from above me and the mids front right in front, and the lows were chest level. (I like to think I have very good ears) I wrote at the top of my sheet that I thought there was definitely three drivers. But then I second guessed myself that I had never heard the line array and knew it angled towards the ceiling a bit. That this might be what I am hearing. I didnt write anything down after this as I decided it was enough

Overall: I was fairly confident in the fact that it was the cats or the line array. I gave the speaker an 84 out of 100. Later on after hearing both B and C I decided this had to be the cats as it didn't have the clarity that I knew the Noesis has. But something to keep in mind. I had never seen the Danley's I didn't know what model they were, didn't know what they looked like, didn't know any of their design principals.... lol; I was confident I could pick out the cats and the noesis as I had heard them before in Andrews room..... but I had no clue as what the danley's were going to sound like..... wish I knew what they looked like.

B-Blind:: Another semi-long break, but much quicker than before. Something that I did not mention before was that before the playlist was run Jonathan, Adam, and I would check the levels of both left and right channel independently and the subs as well. This is something we kept up with before each playback. So I know for a fact it was consistent.

One started out and I could right away hear, what I called a harpsichord, to be very pronounced. Things were sounding good.
From the front of the room nine (Hey Hey) the sibilance was less pronounced, almost quieted. It was odd how much of it was missing.
Home (ten) I found the trumpet to be fatiguing.
twelve (Go Insane): I wrote again that the strings hitting the guitar neck was very evident, as I was now listening for this.
Skipping on down to Echo (seventeen: I noted a very clear clicking noise.
My favorite Blake track (nineteen) I didn't write anything down.... what was I thinking, but for twenty I noted that the high notes of the singer were not as piercing as they normally are.
Tron (twenty one) I could hear every little breath and paper turn, as well as all the squeaks. I was impressed.
twenty two - the rain was very evident and for twenty three the voices weren't fatiguing at all like the last speaker and well blended into the song.
Too bad that for Jambi (twenty four) the echo throwing wasn't evident at all.
I didn't note much after that for these speakers other than for Count of Tuscany (thirty eight) the voices were clear and the arps were as well.

Overall: This being only the second speaker I only had the first one to compare against and what memory I had of previous get togethers.I noted that they were very well consistent through the entire frequency spectrum and that there wasn't any crossover points evident from what I heard. I was grasping at straws here, but I wrote that its either that or that all the speakers are ported to the front aka noesis..... but that was unlikely as I didn't get the crisp crisp highs I expect of them. Again my complete lack of knowledge about the danleys worried me..... but something I came to realize half way through playback was that the sound overall sounded like it was coming from the ceiling. So I wrote down that these get a 95 rating from me and I am guessing they were the line arrays.

C-Blind: The third speaker was later in the day. I had narrowed it down to just the noesis and the danleys left. The danleys were worrying to me. About this time Austin was badgering me with the point source nonsense.... I didn't know what that was about. All I knew was that every 15 min or so I would hear 'point source' from him..... bloody annoying.

Track three (Robin Hood): the triangle is clear even through the trumpet parts.
that stupid harlem track I even wrote down that the timber of the maraca is distinguishable.... how foolish of me to even comment on this track, i'm inviting in the pants soilers at even mentioning it.
for number seven (Leaving on a Jet Plane) the highs were particularly distinct as were the rain stick and triangle.
Soul of a Man (eight) has the whasper to his voice missing from the song. Yes I made that up and its a good descriptive word for his voice.
Dispatch, nine, again had the sibilance evident, but I noted it was fairly under control and was not displeasing to my ears. This might have to do with the length of the listening for the day though.
Home ten had the tinkling jingle be very distinct and wasn't lost in the large band. The voices were also clearly heard over the caucus noise.
Go Insane twelve had the mid tone vocals be very clear sounding to me. At this point I retreated from the front like before.
Returning to the front in anticipation of having ear rape, Blake, nineteen, did not disappoint me this time and I got that piercing high note clearly evident within the crash. I also noted that the high vocals were very clear to me.
The second Blake track (twenty) I noted having a great harmony with the female singer. Even with the digital sounding processing to her voice.
twenty oneTron had every nuance evident. And Moon Trance (twenty two) was very detailed with both the rain sounds and the lighter.
Somewhere (twenty three): I noted a slight bump in volume in the mid/high vocals, but slightly less fatigue that previously.
Sadley, for Jambi (twenty four) I couldn't hear any echo shifting between channels.

Overall: I really like the detailed nuances but did not like the imaging that seamed to be missing. The ringing high tones were achieved, but not quite as crisp as I want/know/need them to be. I gave these a rating of 90. Later on I decided that these must be the Noesis by a process of elimination as when I evaluated D they were not quite as clear as them.

D-Blind: The last speaker of the night. I had heard 'point source' so many times by now I was getting grouchy. I also was trying to appeal to Andrew and Adam that it wasn't fair to make me/us guess what speakers were which if we didn't know what our choices were. Giving us a bank of 5 or 6 speaker pairs (Cats/Yorks/Noesis/Arrays/Danleys/Single 8's) to pick for four spots isn't fair...... Luckily they announced that this would be the last pair of speakers and they were the most point source like yet..... screw them....

The night was getting long, I like many others did not have the greatest amount of sleep the night before. As such, my notes are sparse.
Track six got mention from me this time for having some smooth slides and plucks remaining sharp, but still not being overpowering.
Leaving on a Jet Plane, seven, the triangle had a different pitch each time it was struck. Very Very detailed, something I had not heard previously.
Soul of a Man was eighth and the whasper to his voice was very distinct and not blurred together at all.
Skipping to ten, Home had the whistling section able to discern individual whistles from band members. Although the female vocals later on were slightly lost in the mix.
Go Insane had a twang to the strings that was audible at certain points, very good show track twelve.
Skipping right on down to good ole Blake nineteen: the high note, I had written, was not as high as I remembered it to be. Though again this might have been my ears getting tired of listening to high volumes the entire day.
Dance With Me (twenty) I did not find the female vocal as spectacular as before.
Moon Trance had audible rain and the lighter effect not being overly loud. (twenty two)
Jambi get a large nod this time. twenty four. I wrote down the the imaging of the echo after each line was supurb and I underlined it three times. Now thats saying something.

Overall: I really liked these and gave them a rating of 85. I didn't find them as good as the C set of speakers for highs, but had extremely detailed notes and precision. The imaging was also fantastic. My rating might not have been well thaught out as I was really just tired of listening by this point. I decided that these had to be the danleys as they didnt fit what I rememberd of the noesis. But really, I wasn't too sure. I didn't know what they looked like or their construction...... both C and D sounded clearly better than A and B, but I didn't know what to assign each. I eventually ended on these being the danleys and awarded C the leftover choice of noesis.



The Big Reveal: Boy was I happy that I got A and B correct. I was absolutely sure that they were them.... plus there might have been a side bet for 50$ with Jonathan that almost happened.....but we both didn't commit to.... I would have won.... shucks.... I don't think I was guessing with confidence on the last two sets, as I was very unsure of what those stinking danleys looked like. In the end I was 2 for 4. But I could have been 4 for 4 had I known the design of the Danleys, I think.... that lack of imaging would have gave it to me....


Great event, lets do it again.... now if only I can remember not to forget equipment at Andrew's place every time I go......
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:36 PM
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Great review Ben, man you guys destroy me with your detailed descriptions.

You wrote that C and D were better than A and B but you gave the highest score to B?
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:10 AM
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Definitely a good read Ben

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Old 01-23-2014, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Great review Ben, man you guys destroy me with your detailed descriptions.

You wrote that C and D were better than A and B but you gave the highest score to B?

I was wondering the same thing...
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:25 AM
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Should I keep them and not move to another Danley offering to satisfy the sickness, yes. I would have already ordered one if I didn't have a little sumpin cookin' on the back burner right now wink.gif
Red and orange, Left and Right Danleys at g2g with Andrew's subs. Green is my room response with no subs. The sub under no circumstance would ever effect anything above the crossover region.
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none of those are with beasts subs, its Left and Right at the G2G

Gotcha.. thanks...

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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

The 228's have 8inch drivers and most that have heard both cannot tell a difference.

Cannot tell a difference in 'tone', etc, or cannot tell a difference in, specifically the 'mid bass slam'? If there's no difference when it comes to 8 inc vs 12 inch in the mid bass department, then why bother with a 12 inch? Why not just slap the same CD into an 8 inch cabinet and call it a day?

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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

While I can't comment about how they would compare to the 212's or Cat's, but as a general rule if something sounds good with music it will be equally adept with HT soundtracks.

Agreed on the 'sound good' part. But not sure I'll agree on the 'HT soundtracks' part, because in HT, I like to listen to it at reference, and tons of mid bass... in music (depending on what type), i might not even need all the mid-bass... the 'scare' factor, I think could only exist in bigger drivers..
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:39 AM
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I'm not a sound design engineer but I think designing a loudspeaker that can do both isn't so easy. HT is busy with lots of dynamic range that hits hard and switches back and forth between quiet and super loud. Yes music can do the same which is why some people love hard hitting heavy metal on these speakers. I think it's difficult to get the highs correct without inducing unwanted effects at high power levels through large drivers. At the same time, it's not so easy to tame the drivers to play at levels we might hear when listening to jazz or orchestral music. When I say tame, I mean trying to roll off the mids so as not to induce a boxy or hollow tone because the big drivers aren't able to do that correctly. This is why many two channel music speakers have a variety of drivers, each tasked to do what they do best. Now try and make them drive hard and you run into another problem. Letting out the smoke.

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Old 01-23-2014, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

I'm not a sound design engineer but I think designing a loudspeaker that can do both isn't so easy. HT is busy with lots of dynamic range that hits hard and switches back and forth between quiet and super loud. Yes music can do the same which is why some people love hard hitting heavy metal on these speakers. I think it's difficult to get the highs correct without inducing unwanted effects at high power levels through large drivers. At the same time, it's not so easy to tame the drivers to play at levels we might hear when listening to jazz or orchestral music. When I say tame, I mean trying to roll off the mids so as not to induce a boxy or hollow tone because the big drivers aren't able to do that correctly. This is why many two channel music speakers have a variety of drivers, each tasked to do what they do best. Now try and make them drive hard and you run into another problem. Letting out the smoke.

Makes a lot of sense... smile.gif

I think in this regard, the Noesis 212 sort of got close to 'nirvana' for both music and HT... at least to me personally.. and to all my buddies that have auditioned them... Due to the design nature of it (ie, basically a satellite / sub system), I am getting what i want just by switching out the subwoofers.. for most music, i prefer my dual HSUs, which will bring the entire package to almost nirvana for music, and when watching movies, i switch in the OS + the Dual HSUs for that added 'bang' and 'extension'...

And if i were to change anything else, it might be to get another OS (when i can afford it), or add mid bass modules (maybe a couple more 18 inchers). I can't help but feel that even with the 212s and an Orbit shifter in the mix, there's still a higher plane where you can get to in terms of that 'absolute scare factor', and the extreme 'slap you silly and punch you in the chest' feeling..

As for music, i almost couldn't imagine anything better than my setup.. and now i am intrigued with the Danleys...
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:23 AM
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Great review Ben, man you guys destroy me with your detailed descriptions.

You wrote that C and D were better than A and B but you gave the highest score to B?

Yes that's my ears getting tired for ya. The number rating was my enjoyment.... Towards the end of the night I couldn't listen anymore.... Lol. I liked the danleys the most for their sound. I liked the line arrays the most for their audition.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:29 AM
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Yikes, looks like we might have more work than I thought frown.gif

On a serious note, everyone knows Matt's skill level is very good, please don't take away from that because I dragged him into doing dsp settings with me sight unseen and with no playtime...I feel it's only fair to say this.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Makes a lot of sense... smile.gif

I think in this regard, the Noesis 212 sort of got close to 'nirvana' for both music and HT... at least to me personally.. and to all my buddies that have auditioned them... Due to the design nature of it (ie, basically a satellite / sub system), I am getting what i want just by switching out the subwoofers.. for most music, i prefer my dual HSUs, which will bring the entire package to almost nirvana for music, and when watching movies, i switch in the OS + the Dual HSUs for that added 'bang' and 'extension'...

And if i were to change anything else, it might be to get another OS (when i can afford it), or add mid bass modules (maybe a couple more 18 inchers). I can't help but feel that even with the 212s and an Orbit shifter in the mix, there's still a higher plane where you can get to in terms of that 'absolute scare factor', and the extreme 'slap you silly and punch you in the chest' feeling..

As for music, i almost couldn't imagine anything better than my setup.. and now i am intrigued with the Danleys...

BTW the Denon 4520ci AVR has the means to allow you to have both HT specific AND two channel speakers set up simultaneously. You can switch between the two entirely different setups at will.

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Old 01-23-2014, 08:23 AM
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Nothing I heard sounded like what I hear in my room on the Noesis. I am NOT saying that I have some kind of incredible room with great acoustics (ahem... that would be Craig John...) I am saying that the sound in my room with the 212's is what I am used to.

I have to support what CraigJohn said about the room. Only I would suggest that the room (with attendant treatment) and speaker placement, when used with these kinds of quality speakers, is a LOT more than 49% of what you hear. A LOT more. I recently moved to a new home and my Seaton 11 speakers system (4 SubMersives, 3 Cat12's and 4 Sparks) came with me. New room, new acoustic treatment but all electronics are the same. The sound is completely different than my last room. Some parts better and many part different.

So the fact that owners of some of the tested equipment could not identify their own speaker is not a bit of a surprise. After purchasing my speakers some number of years ago, I heard them in a room at CEDIA (actually they were Cat8's). In that room they sounded nothing like what I own to the point that had that been my first listening, it would have also been my last.

I'm glad I wasn't there!!! (not really smile.gif)
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

BTW the Denon 4520ci AVR has the means to allow you to have both HT specific AND two channel speakers set up simultaneously. You can switch between the two entirely different setups at will.

I like listening to music in 5.1 though...

Anyways, it's no big deal for me to hook up and unhook the OS... i'll do that even if i don't have to as i unplug my OS when not in used.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:45 PM
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rush2049, I appreciated all your detailed comments and the final song listing.

In order to make following the songs easier, I created a CUE sheet so all the individual songs are listed in my media player. Here is the file if anyone wants to use it (change the extension from txt to cue):

2014NELoudspeakerGTG.txt 4k .txt file

I also did an EBU R128 analysis and TT Dynamic Range analysis of each track. I have included the following information in the chart:

Peak Level (R128): "In order to prevent clipping, the standard suggests a maximum true peak level of -1 dBFS for PCM, or lower levels for certain parts of the transmission chain (e.g., lossy or low-bitrate codecs, analogue re-broadcasters). ITU-R BS.1770 suggests to use an oversampling peak meter to measure the true peaks that can lie between samples and are often higher than the peaks shown by a QPPM or sample peak meter."

Volume Level (R128): "The K-weighting filter models the subjective perception of loudness and outperformed almost all complicated psychoacoustical models. Furthermore, ITU-R BS.1770-2 defines a gating method to just measure the loudness of foreground signals (e.g. speech) and ignore the low volume background sounds. The output of this algorithm is the program loudness, measured in Loudness Units (LU). Its absolute unit is referred to as LUFS (Loudness Units with reference to Full Scale), or sometimes also as LKFS. A step of 1 LU is equivalent to a step of 1 dB." This shows the relative volume levels of the tracks.

Loudness Range (R128): "The loudness range (LRA) indicates the variation of loudness over the course of a program and is measured in LU. It can be used to determine whether a production requires dynamic treatment and how to adapt it to different distribution channels. For example, an audio signal with a large LRA might need to be compressed, and podcasts generally require a lower LRA than classical music recordings."

TT Dynamic Range: A measurement comparing average RMS to Peak Values. The Dynamic Range Database can be found here.

Attached Files
File Type: txt 2014NELoudspeakerGTG.txt (4.1 KB, 12 views)
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:54 PM
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So what your saying desertdome is that the Disturbed track should be shamed for even being allowed on the list.... biggrin.gif eh Jim?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:26 PM
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It would have sounded even worse if played after Spanish Harlem. That is a 13.9 dB difference in volume! I have 105 songs in my library that measure louder and have lower DR numbers, but none of them have such a low loudness range (1.4 LU) as Disturbed.

According the the DR Database entry for Indestructible, the whole album is crap:

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Old 01-23-2014, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

rush2049, I appreciated all your detailed comments and the final song listing.

In order to make following the songs easier, I created a CUE sheet so all the individual songs are listed in my media player. Here is the file if anyone wants to use it (change the extension from txt to cue):

2014NELoudspeakerGTG.txt 4k .txt file

I also did an EBU R128 analysis and TT Dynamic Range analysis of each track. I have included the following information in the chart:

Whoa, very cool. Thanks, DD!
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