$1500 for speakers with denon 2313 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Good morning and thank you all for the great information. I have a Denon 2313. 105 watts per channel. I am looking for floorstanding speakers for a very large living room. I mostly listen to two channel music on these, although they will be part of the 2.1 for television viewing as well. My emphasis is definitely on music.

My room is about 20' x 16', with a 10 foot vaulted ceiling. I usually prefer speakers that most people would describe as bright, with tight bass rather than overwhelming bass. As I have been shopping, some snotty salesmen have said I do not have enough power in the AVR to satisfy my goals. Is this true at this budget? Do I need to buy amplifiers first?

To try and better describe my goals, I listen to a lot of classic rock, classical, and a good bit of live stuff. When someone strums a guitar, I like to hear the squeak noise on the strings, and when someone sits down to start a violin Concerto, I like to hear them taking a deep breath! Thanks for any advice on all of this stuff. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

One more specific thing, can my denon play 4 ohms speakers? There seems to be a lot of debate about that out there. I do not listen to anything terribly loud. Thanks.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:16 AM
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That receiver has plenty of power for an average or above average sensitivity speaker. While I don't think that Denon is rated for 4 ohm loads, this does not mean that should discourage you. They will stress your receiver more than say a 6 ohm speaker would, but generally your ears will give in before your receiver does. For your purposes I think receiver is great. And just for some perspective, to gain 3dB of loudness you would need a receiver with double the power, so the difference in power between 90% of receivers is inaudible.

On to speakers, one thing you may want to consider is getting bookshelves and a sub, because your receiver will set a crossover for your mains, the lower extension of towers becomes wasted since a sub will do that job better. The end result is very similar without wasting money on unused extension. A $500 bookshelf speaker will be nicer than an equally priced floorstander, and so going this route lets you jump up to a nicer product line.

I would consider a pair of Ascend Sierra-1 bookshelves, and an HSU VTF3-MK4. These are some fantastic speakers and will give you the detail you are looking for. The sub is very capable and has some nice tuning features. Both are available in various finishes so you can get what matches your decor.

There are dozens of good options with your budget, this is just one of many.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:55 AM
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Tell the snotty salesman to blow his nose

Look at Monitor Audio Silver 1 speaker
http://www.soundadvice.com/Monitor-Audio-Bookshelf-Speaker-Silver1-Priced-Ea-P6205.aspx

HSU VTF-2 subwoofer
http://www.soundadvice.com/Monitor-Audio-Bookshelf-Speaker-Silver1-Priced-Ea-P6205.aspx

And for mainly music - I would look at the Mordaunt Short Aviano 9 sub
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MORDAVI9RW/Mordaunt-Short-Aviano-9-12-300-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer-Rose/1.html#!more

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MORDAVI9WN/Mordaunt-Short-Aviano-9-12-300-Watt-Powered-Subwoofer-Wnt/1.html

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Old 01-30-2014, 01:29 PM
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Not sure if you already have a sub, but if you do, I recommend Revel M106 bookshelves. You should be able to get a pair for under $1500 if you call around. If not, step down to the Revel M105 and get a good sub like the HSU VTF3-MK4 already mentioned above.

Don't worry too much about the resistance of the speakers. What maters more is the sensitivity and how loud you play them. I speaker with a sensitivity of 105dB/1W/1m and impedance of 1ohm will be a lot easier on a receiver than a speaker that has a sensitivity rating of 80dB/1W/1m and an impedance of 8ohm when driven to higher volumes. Impedance values matter even less when you are crossing over to a sub.
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Old 01-30-2014, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for the hints. I will check that stuff out. I noticed each of you recommended a satellite / sub set up.

May I ask why? Is it the power in the receiver? The budget?

I am actually replacing an old MK sub / sat system, since I (thought???) that the large room would allow me to move to floorstanding speakers. Wouldn't floorstanding units give me better overall sound? If not, I am good either way...


Thanks again!
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Old 01-30-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Thanks everyone for the hints. I will check that stuff out. I noticed each of you recommended a satellite / sub set up.

May I ask why? Is it the power in the receiver? The budget?

I am actually replacing an old MK sub / sat system, since I (thought???) that the large room would allow me to move to floorstanding speakers. Wouldn't floorstanding units give me better overall sound? If not, I am good either way...


Thanks again!

Take a look at the second paragraph of post #2

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Thanks everyone for the hints. I will check that stuff out. I noticed each of you recommended a satellite / sub set up.

May I ask why? Is it the power in the receiver? The budget?

I am actually replacing an old MK sub / sat system, since I (thought???) that the large room would allow me to move to floorstanding speakers. Wouldn't floorstanding units give me better overall sound? If not, I am good either way...Thanks again!

Mainly because of price and you said 2.1 >> for the most part, I will take a good bookshelf
speaker, compared to a tower at the same price. Also, a lot of towers will still benefit from
a subwoofer.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

. I usually prefer speakers that most people would describe as bright, with tight bass rather than overwhelming bass. Thanks.

Take a look at Klipsch reference. A pair of RF62IIs or 82IIs would work well. Or see if you can find a used pair of RF83s or RF7s.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

May I ask why? Is it the power in the receiver? The budget?

I am actually replacing an old MK sub / sat system, since I (thought???) that the large room would allow me to move to floorstanding speakers. Wouldn't floorstanding units give me better overall sound?

Bang for the buck, a satellite + sub setup will outperform a full tower with no sub at the same price point. There are no mass produced consumer tower speakers that can compete with a decent sub in the lower frequencies. Not only that, but speaker placement for optimum soundstage and imaging is rarely the same place as where it will be for good bass response. Having a satellite and sub will allow you to have the best of both worlds (WAF not taken into account).
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks...saw a good used set of 83s, but the masses seem to recommend much more power than I have.

Interesting thoughts on satellites....I feel like I have always heard a "missing" sound from those set ups. Maybe I have to up the budget (wife will love that) and get something more.

Thanks everyone, lots to think about......
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Interesting thoughts on satellites....I feel like I have always heard a "missing" sound from those set ups. Maybe I have to up the budget (wife will love that) and get something more

We did not recommend baby satellite speakers - what satellites are you talking about?

If still wanting a tower recommendation - then look at

Focal 814
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/FOCAL814V/FOCAL-Chorus-814V-Dual-6-Floorstanding-Speakers-BLACK-pair/1.html

JBL Studio 580
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-580-Floorstanding-Loudspeaker/dp/B0060IG460/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391128862&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+580

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Interesting thoughts on satellites....I feel like I have always heard a "missing" sound from those set ups.

You will if you do not have a proper sub to compliment them, the satellites were not capable to begin with or the sub was not properly integrated into the system.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks....I should have been more specific....did not recognize the difference between "satellite" and "bookshelf", etc.

I will go listen and see what I can find...
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:19 PM
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I have the 2312 with satellites and sub and it sounds great with movies and music. But I'm looking to upgrade to floor standers and I like the Klipsch RF-62s or RF-82s. They are very efficient and should go plenty loud with the 2313.

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Old 01-30-2014, 09:20 PM
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Thanks....I should have been more specific....did not recognize the difference between "satellite" and "bookshelf", etc.

I will go listen and see what I can find...

Actually, I should apologize. I used the term satellite in place of bookshelves. Technically, satellite speakers means any speaker that is not a subwoofer regardless of size. Even full sized towers are considered satellite speakers. To be more clear, satellite speakers when used in context of THX specifications means any speaker that is not the subwoofer. I think in more general context most people assume satellite speakers as those tiny cubes like you see from entry level HTiB systems. I could be wrong in that assumption though.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:32 AM
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Actually, I should apologize. I used the term satellite in place of bookshelves. Technically, satellite speakers means any speaker that is not a subwoofer regardless of size. Even full sized towers are considered satellite speakers. To be more clear, satellite speakers when used in context of THX specifications means any speaker that is not the subwoofer. I think in more general context most people assume satellite speakers as those tiny cubes like you see from entry level HTiB systems. I could be wrong in that assumption though.

Yeah sometime the wording can be ambiguous. When people say sub/sat combo, it's just a quick way to say Bookshelves and a sub woofer. For your purposes OP, I think bookshelves and a sub woofer is the way to go.

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Old 01-31-2014, 07:50 AM
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For your purposes OP, I think bookshelves and a sub woofer is the way to go.

I agree with everyone else.

Also, be aware that if you find speakers you like in store, don't get talked into buying a sub from that dealer. Internet direct subwoofer vendors HSU Research, SVS Sound, Power Sound Audio, Outlaw Audio, and Rythmik offer much better price/performance values. Often, these Internet subwoofer vendors will compete with traditional speaker company subwoofer brands at brick and mortar stores costing twice the price MSRP.

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Old 01-31-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post


We did not recommend baby satellite speakers - what satellites are you talking about?

If still wanting a tower recommendation - then look at

Focal 814
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/FOCAL814V/FOCAL-Chorus-814V-Dual-6-Floorstanding-Speakers-BLACK-pair/1.html

JBL Studio 580
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-580-Floorstanding-Loudspeaker/dp/B0060IG460/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391128862&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+580

 

Those Focals look like a great deal! Wow.

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Old 01-31-2014, 09:04 AM
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Those Focals look like a great deal! Wow.

Almost gone - and is closeout pricing - a very good deal.

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Old 01-31-2014, 11:12 AM
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Almost gone - and is closeout pricing - a very good deal.

Yeah. Seems to me those Focal Chorus towers are of the best deals for towers right now. Seems like one would have to spend a lot more to do better. I would think one would have to pay at least $1100 or $1200 to get an equivalent class of speaker in B&W, Paradigm, PSB, or Monitor Audio. So I just don't see how anyone could be unhappy with them for the price.

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Old 01-31-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Yeah. Seems to me those Focal Chorus towers are of the best deals for towers right now. Seems like one would have to spend a lot more to do better. I would think one would have to pay at least $1100 or $1200 to get an equivalent class of speaker in B&W, Paradigm, PSB, or Monitor Audio. So I just don't see how anyone could be unhappy with them for the price.

+1
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Yeah. Seems to me those Focal Chorus towers are of the best deals for towers right now. Seems like one would have to spend a lot more to do better. I would think one would have to pay at least $1100 or $1200 to get an equivalent class of speaker in B&W, Paradigm, PSB, or Monitor Audio. So I just don't see how anyone could be unhappy with them for the price.

This is a secret - so, I do not want it to really get out. However,smile.gif The JBL Studio 5 series, can hang/compete with and
maybe then some, in that group.

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Old 01-31-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Thanks...saw a good used set of 83s, but the masses seem to recommend much more power than I have.

Interesting thoughts on satellites....I feel like I have always heard a "missing" sound from those set ups. Maybe I have to up the budget (wife will love that) and get something more.

Thanks everyone, lots to think about......

Don't be swayed by the masses. Your AVR has plenty of power to drive them to very loud levels. I drive my rf62s with 50 watts/channel and have no volume issues.

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Old 01-31-2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threetone View Post

Thanks...saw a good used set of 83s, but the masses seem to recommend much more power than I have.

Interesting thoughts on satellites....I feel like I have always heard a "missing" sound from those set ups. Maybe I have to up the budget (wife will love that) and get something more.

Thanks everyone, lots to think about......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Don't be swayed by the masses. Your AVR has plenty of power to drive them to very loud levels. I drive my rf62s with 50 watts/channel and have no volume issues.

I agree whole heatedly with Kini62.
The AVR has more than enough power handle RF-83s.
I own RF-83s and I think they are terrific speakers, I use a Pioneer VSX-23 AVR and it will get loud enough to cause hearing damage if anyone really wants to go there.
For music these speakers are legitimate without a sub, and any sub you add that does not have a flat response into the very low 20's really isn't going to do much for you except allow you to jack up the subwoofer volume and create an unbalanced soundstage.
Some people like that though, so YMMV depending on your tastes.

If the 83's are in excellent condition and hopefully around 1/2 MSRP (say $1400 or less for the pair) I say grab them and don't look back.

Regards,
Charlie

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Old 02-01-2014, 10:32 AM
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Not so fast. New opinion here.

I've upgraded systems over the decades and I've learned it's not best to try squeeze as much as you can into one budget. At best you buy in at low to mid grade level, and be locked in there for quite awhile.

For the OP with a $1500 budget, I would get the best sounding pair of L&R speakers for the money as long as they weren't really bass deficient. Also they shouldn't have such low SPL ratings to force you to upgrade your AVR.

If and when it's time to add a sub, you can then make it a quality matching sub. So at that point you'll have speakers that are a couple notches above what was originally indicated. And speakers, unlike the component du jour, can be enjoyed for years or decades and sometimes in other rooms.

With that said, my previous experience might help. I had expensive but older Meridian DSP 5000 speakers as my L&R in my HT. I just replaced them with GoldenEar Triton Sevens at $1400. Everything I read about them was true and then some. When I listened to them at the dealer next to the Triton Twos, considerably more expensive, I liked the overall sound stage of the Sevens better, but the Twos (active) had some serious slam on the bottom end. But when we added a sub with the Sevens I actually liked their overall sound better. So home they went.

As you might guess, in my home demo the Sevens won out over the Meridians. Now here is the good part. While doing all this testing I was doing some testing for bass after I had ran Audyssey XT32. I was about to switch off the sub for the next test, which can go down to 18hz, when I noticed it was already switched off. Wow, these mid size towers can go low for non active speakers. Still not as low as a good sub, but you won't be running out to the store to buy a sub. This is not to ignore the benefits of sub placement flexibility. The Sevens have the same ribbon tweeter and mid as the upcoming Triton Ones at $5000/pr and maybe why I prefer the Sevens over the Twos with the slightly older mid.

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Old 02-01-2014, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Lots to think about. A few goldenear questions:

1. Is my 105 Watts per channel enough?

2. I like the bass response theory, but am often turned off by speakers that have ringy, boomy bass. This often occurs with radiators. How tight were they?

3. Any retailers where I can hear them?

4. Generally in treble and midrange sound, I like speakers that others describe as "almost too bright..." How would these fit in there?

Thanks for all the great info!!!!!
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:50 AM
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Considering your room size, your power is sufficient, enough to make T-Rex sound real.

My opinion is mine. But do read all the great reviews.

Look for dealers at the GET site.

The last 10% should be done by you at a dealer. My dealer let me demo them at home. I was comparing them to other speakers. You should check out how they sound in your room with your equipment.

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