Is it the equipment or my rock/metal music?? Plus need help with recommendations - Revel Salon2, JL Gotham, Parasound, McIntosh etc. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 02-14-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I guess it will take the 20-page version to convince you that you are full of hot air.

Please don't post that in the forum. eek.gif

Besides, I doubt anyone would believe it anyway.

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post #32 of 56 Old 02-14-2014, 06:46 PM
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Might be a good time for some chill music (with a bit of guitar "bite"): Sigur Rós' Olsen Olsen. Lots of beautiful snow scenes, though right now some folks up north might not want to watch!

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post #33 of 56 Old 02-14-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Have you ever done a blind test of amps to figure it out for yourself? If so, your opinion is the opposite of all the guys that were at my place for a blind amp comparison last summer. All amps were level matched to within 0.2 db's and we could not tell a difference unless we were clipping an amp.

I too thought there was a difference before this and now know it was all l in my head. We had a switcher that allowed us to immediately switch between amps and it was very clear that we were not going to be able to tell the difference.

So anyway, amps schmamps. The biggest variables are the speakers and the room. I am a metal head too and forever I searched for speakers that would make me happy. I tried many different types in my room until I stumbled upon JTR's Noesis speakers. Long story short, I'm in metal heaven. cool.gif Sure, some recordings in metal are sh*t and will never sound "good" but Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Opeth, Dream Theater, Amon Amarth, Kataklysm, Nightwish, Crowbar, Tool, Death, Nile, After Forever, Iron Maiden, Within Temptation, Type O Negative, Iced Earth, etc. most of it sounds FANTASTIC on my speakers.


Even though my room looks like it is all about home theater (which is is too) music is by far my priority.





I would look at this photo and would say i want it all ....biggrin.gif BTW another metal fan . Dream theater have great recordings , Trivium " In Flames" also a good recording , Testament " Dark roots of earth" and Scars On Broadway less low end but great vocals .
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post #34 of 56 Old 02-15-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by almadacr View Post

I would look at this photo and would say i want it all ....biggrin.gif BTW another metal fan . Dream theater have great recordings , Trivium " In Flames" also a good recording , Testament " Dark roots of earth" and Scars On Broadway less low end but great vocals .


Agreed! DT's Images and Words and Awake are outstanding. I'm not as big of a fan of the production of the post 6 degrees albums, but still love them. The newest one is a step in the right direction but I don't know if they will ever match the production of Images and Words and Awake.




Hey, I want to apologize for my comments yesterday commsysman if you are still following this thread. I don't like to argue on the forum and I was rude. Drinking and posting don't mix sometimes.... smile.gif
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post #35 of 56 Old 02-15-2014, 08:57 PM
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Donut Fan has it right.. Recordings are carp now. I think that is why there is such a huge renaissance in listening to vinyl. Dynamic range matters! Subtlety matters (well, maybe not in metal) but generally in most types of music.
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post #36 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 06:15 AM
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Donut Fan has it right.. Recordings are carp now. I think that is why there is such a huge renaissance in listening to vinyl. Dynamic range matters! Subtlety matters (well, maybe not in metal) but generally in most types of music.
Vinyl doesn't have wider dynamic range than CD, it has considerably less. One of the promises made when CDs were introduced was that we'd get recordings with much higher dynamic range because CD was capable of giving it. That didn't happen, but it has nothing to do with the medium, it has everything to do with the hands at the controls at mixdown.
As to silly arguments about certain speakers, amps or whatever being more appropriate for different genres of music: Accurate response, low THD and uncompressed dynamic range will make any source sound as good as it can sound, and it will also reveal poor recordings. If there was a difference in the requirements of speakers or amps for metal versus country versus symphonic recordings studios would have different speakers and amps to use when mastering different genres. They don't. rolleyes.gif
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post #37 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I gave you a very BRIEF condensed resume (did you ignore that word?).

I guess it will take the 20-page version to convince you that you are full of hot air.

Lol, the condensed version missed 40 years of so called experience.
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post #38 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

But I am certain I could not tell the difference either, with that "music" you describe, and that absurdly arranged conglomeration of "speakers".

I would prefer to listen to recordings of car crashes. I am sure they would all sound the same too.

Not cool.
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Hey, I want to apologize for my comments yesterday commsysman if you are still following this thread. I don't like to argue on the forum and I was rude. Drinking and posting don't mix sometimes.... smile.gif

I don't know why you are apologizing. He was being very insulting. He should be the one to apologize.
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post #39 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 08:54 AM
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In practical terms, the verdict on amps has been in for a long time. There's nothing new to say, if practical considerations are relevant.
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post #40 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 09:28 AM
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Not cool.
I don't know why you are apologizing. He was being very insulting. He should be the one to apologize.



Yeah I know what you mean but it doesn't matter to me what someone thinks of my system so I felt silly for insulting him. Thanks for the comments though. smile.gif
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post #41 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Agreed! DT's Images and Words and Awake are outstanding. I'm not as big of a fan of the production of the post 6 degrees albums, but still love them. The newest one is a step in the right direction but I don't know if they will ever match the production of Images and Words and Awake.




Hey, I want to apologize for my comments yesterday commsysman if you are still following this thread. I don't like to argue on the forum and I was rude. Drinking and posting don't mix sometimes.... smile.gif

The vinyl version of the last work (Dream Theater) came with a FLAC version also and i prefer the vinyl one i had to listen both at a friend since my TT died on me and it came very close to Metropolis , but even there bootlegs have great quality .
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post #42 of 56 Old 02-16-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah I know what you mean but it doesn't matter to me what someone thinks of my system so I felt silly for insulting him. Thanks for the comments though. smile.gif

You, sir, are a class act.

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post #43 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 05:21 AM
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So this guy asks for advice on speakers and amps. What he gets is another freakin DBT debate. !!! AVS is polluted with it to no end.

Revels good. Expensive.
Paradigms good. Good value. A lot of quality for a modest price. Good match w Mcintosh.
Wilson. Crazy money. New Alexias are really good, a departure from the typical wilson sound so you may like them.
The new Magico S5 is unreal and its around 30k. I think it easily bests the wilson. I do like Salon 2s but they cannot keep up with the Magicos.
I listened to some magico Q3s. The salesman was running them with a REL sub. I told him to turn off the sub, I want to know what the speaker is capable of by itself. On some strong low bass material, The Q3 was extremely capable. It shook the rafters and floor violently. I was most impressed. The BE tweeter is also very capable and composed.

If you want to spend stupid money and actually get something that sounds good: Magico S5/Q5/Q3 or KEF Blade. Run them on Mcintosh 601s. That should put a grin on your face.
Some other names you may like: Sonus Faber, Focal, Dynaudio, PSB Synchrony and Goldenear.

I was in a store recently that had Revel and Paradigm set up together. The Paradigm Tributes were run on the identical equipment that was running the Revels. Tributes stole the show. The salesmen could not believe the Paradigm did so well at 6k for the pair.
You liked the Paradigm Mcintosh combo. I challenge you to get a demo of the Tributes.They would certainly work well with Mcintosh. Performance to price ratio would be high. I dont think you would be disappointed.

Also, you may want to consider Axpona in April. You will be presented with a lot of equipment you never knew existed.

Who needs blindfolds? Just enjoy the music.

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IDMAX 12INFINITY RS3 / POLK MONITOR 10/ALTEC 501 / INTEGRA 50.3/PARADIGM DSP 3400 / GOLDENEAR AON3

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post #44 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 05:45 AM
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The salesmen could not believe the Paradigm did so well at 6k for the pair.
That's why you should audition speakers blindfolded, literally, and not have any idea what it is that you're listening to. If your eyes tell you that something should sound better than something else chances are it will. That especially applies to seeing the price tag. Once you get out of the entry level the price of any component has little to no bearing on how it sounds, with the exception of cables. There entry level is as good as it gets. cool.gif
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post #45 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 05:52 AM
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I get the bias thing. Train the weak mind to get out of the way. Separate the senses.
Magicos are fun to listen to, and fun to look at.........
And they should be. They are harder on the wallet than an EPA oil spill fine.


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post #46 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I have over 40 years of amplifier design experience,





 

You are an amplifier designer and you bought a $3495 made in Taiwan amp?

 

Cheers

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post #47 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 07:32 AM
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And in a DBT could the said Taiwanese amplifier be discerned from the Knoll Illusion 1?


NAD M15 /NAD M25 / PSB STRATUS GOLD / PSB STRATUS 6C /DENON AVR 3300/CARVER TFM 45/35 - ANTHEM MCA3/NAD T163
IDMAX 12INFINITY RS3 / POLK MONITOR 10/ALTEC 501 / INTEGRA 50.3/PARADIGM DSP 3400 / GOLDENEAR AON3

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post #48 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 07:48 AM
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+1 for JTR speakers. Tool and Primus have never sounded better in my home than they do right now over my Noesis 228's.

Give the JBL Synthesis line a good hard look if you have the coin. I think the 1400 Array has a more pleasing sound than my 228's. But a much heftier price tag!
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post #49 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's why you should audition speakers blindfolded, literally, and not have any idea what it is that you're listening to. If your eyes tell you that something should sound better than something else chances are it will. That especially applies to seeing the price tag. Once you get out of the entry level the price of any component has little to no bearing on how it sounds, with the exception of cables. There entry level is as good as it gets. cool.gif

And I would agree that there is a lot of useless fluff in the audio industry. I do respect the engineering and sound quality of SOME of the higher end products.

NAD M15 /NAD M25 / PSB STRATUS GOLD / PSB STRATUS 6C /DENON AVR 3300/CARVER TFM 45/35 - ANTHEM MCA3/NAD T163
IDMAX 12INFINITY RS3 / POLK MONITOR 10/ALTEC 501 / INTEGRA 50.3/PARADIGM DSP 3400 / GOLDENEAR AON3

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post #50 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 08:39 AM
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Not to sound like a plebeian here, but when the OP posts "Rock and Roll" I just can't picture many of these lovely refined speakers producing the violent punch one gets from a band like Battlecross. When I hear "bass" I immediately think "JBL". And I'm a rock n' roller too, with love for everything from classic thrash to modern Viking, thrash, and power metal.

Knowing JBL makes a quality high-end product, how about giving these babies a whirl?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/downloads/products/prod_233_634927282032470382_JBL%20Synthesis%20Everest%20DD67000%20Speaker%20Info%20Sheet%20CES-2013.pdf

The Everest DD67000 has dual 15" woofers, weighs 383 lbs, and looks like a ROCK SPEAKER! Handles up to 500W as well, the level of volume that can be measured on the richter scale. Might be worth contacting JBL to see where you could demo these.

Roger Russell (former head of speaker design at McIntosh) also sells his own designed speakers. This guy is the smartest speaker engineer I've ever read about, and his product looks interesting:

http://www.ids25.com/

Or, try and find a set of used McIntosh XR290s. These are awesome.....



$17K almost seems like a steal for these.

I also won't wade into the "amp sounds different" conundrum, but not all amps are created equal. IMHO, the DAC being used in the amp (or even the CD player) and the quality of the power supplies will affect sound. Straight analog from the same source direct (no processing) through two equivalent amps should sound the same. Anything else will vary. I remember going from my JVC amp to my first high current amp (H/K) and could not believe the lack of distortion at higher volume levels.

Another good CD recommendation is by a power metal band out of Austria, Serenity. Their previous album "Death and Legacy" is well-produced, and has a great mix of bass, piano, vocals, and even some female vocals (check out "The Chevalier").

When I went shopping however, I took a poorly mixed and mid-bloated CD (Sum 41 - "Chuck"), as I figured if the amp and speakers could make it sound good, it could make anything sound good.

"Music and beer are proof that God loves us" - Apologies to Benjamin Franklin

 

NAD T748, Wharfedale SP-89(M), AR MC.1 (C), Mirage MBS (R) [Main HT Setup]

NAD 7125, JBL E60, Philips DD, Ortofon Cartridge, H/K CD [Basement Stereo Setup]

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post #51 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post

And I would agree that there is a lot of useless fluff in the audio industry. I do respect the engineering and sound quality of SOME of the higher end products.
I respect even more those which beat the 'higher end' products at prices the average working man can afford. wink.gif
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post #52 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 09:11 AM
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I respect even more those which beat the 'higher end' products at prices the average working man can afford. wink.gif

Thumbs-up Bill. As I used to say to a budding audio enthusiast friend of mine, you can get a really good system that will be up to 90% of your audio Nirvana for under $2K (new). Chasing those last 10% points is what drives the high end (and expensive) market.

Heck, when my new JBLs show up, I'll have a whopping $958 into my system.

Current System:
Wharfedale Sapphire SP89 Fronts - $250 used
Paradigm Centre - $20 used
Mission 760i Surrounds - $80 used
Cerwin Vega Sensurround SUB-120 - $150 used
NAD T748 Receiver - $400 refurbished
JVC 200CD Jukebox, hooked up via optical to use the NAD's DAC - $20 used

Total Invested - $920, though this will probably go up by about $50-100 when my JBL ES80s show up and I need to source a used JBL centre. And I really don't feel like I'm missing out on much, though those XR290s create a visceral lust in me.

"Music and beer are proof that God loves us" - Apologies to Benjamin Franklin

 

NAD T748, Wharfedale SP-89(M), AR MC.1 (C), Mirage MBS (R) [Main HT Setup]

NAD 7125, JBL E60, Philips DD, Ortofon Cartridge, H/K CD [Basement Stereo Setup]

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post #53 of 56 Old 03-04-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterMcTavish View Post

Not to sound like a plebeian here, but when the OP posts "Rock and Roll" I just can't picture many of these lovely refined speakers producing the violent punch one gets from a band like Battlecross. When I hear "bass" I immediately think "JBL". And I'm a rock n' roller too, with love for everything from classic thrash to modern Viking, thrash, and power metal.


Dont underestimate the Magicos. They will slam with power.
However, you are right. The JBLs are a good choice. Klipsch RF7II as well. Also Klipsch Paladium.
Good mention on the Mcintosh. I also like the XRT1K


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IDMAX 12INFINITY RS3 / POLK MONITOR 10/ALTEC 501 / INTEGRA 50.3/PARADIGM DSP 3400 / GOLDENEAR AON3

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post #54 of 56 Old 03-05-2014, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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First off, thank you all for responding, there is a TON of good info here. Much more helpful than another forum I posted on. Carp - your setup looks AWESOME. Where are you located? I would love to listen to what the heck that sounds like. We like exactly the same music.

 

The other setups below here look great too....I already bought the two Gothams figuring I can't go wrong there, but I'm wondering how a pair of Salon's could keep up with what else I'm seeing here. 

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post #55 of 56 Old 03-05-2014, 06:50 PM
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First off, thank you all for responding, there is a TON of good info here. Much more helpful than another forum I posted on. Carp - your setup looks AWESOME. Where are you located? I would love to listen to what the heck that sounds like. We like exactly the same music.

The other setups below here look great too....I already bought the two Gothams figuring I can't go wrong there, but I'm wondering how a pair of Salon's could keep up with what else I'm seeing here. 

Thanks man! You have good taste in music. cool.gif

I've done a lot of demo's the last couple years and it's fun every time. If you are ever going to be close to Kansas City let me know. smile.gif

Oh, also you should check out my metal-heads thread, link at the bottom.
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post #56 of 56 Old 03-05-2014, 06:53 PM
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Check out this 7channelfreak's room he just had built. He lives in Houston and was in the KC area a few months ago and did a demo at my place and Archaea's place (Archaea also has JTR speakers). Guess what speakers 7channelfreak went with? biggrin.gif

Check out his ceiling - awesome!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1497736/college-parks-4k-cinema-v1-0/150#post_24355217
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