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post #31 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

Put some research into this, eh?

I did not post here to critique Salks specifically and only mentioned the brightness when directly asked. My point was that everyone is different and hears differently and has different preferences. Recommendations from others is not very reliable, listening for yourself is. This context did not call for me to go into all of the detail of that time.

I have done considerable work teasing out factors in my experience since. I don't think my aids are as much as a factor as I did then. I also relied on that reason pretty heavily to avoid being overly critical with Jim. The culture on these boards is that criticism of equipment is met with disparagement when that equipment is someone else's favorite. This thread may become a case in point. A devaluing comment like "dismissed out of hand" (not yours) when an opinion is based on in home trial. You pointed to posts in Aug when I first received the SS8s. I picked up a Conrad Johnson Premier 11A in September and sold the Salks in November. I also never made public several sympathetic comments I received privately from others who had tried Salks and didn't like them and who evidently did not feel comfortable posting this in the threads.

Research? That's no fun. Forums are supposed to be fun. smile.gif

Research is something I would have to do for WORK, not for fun. biggrin.gif

But anyway, did you buy the ~ $10K Salk without auditioning first?
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post #32 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

With probably all speakers it is subjective, I.e. not everyone's tastes are the same. While I believe the majority who have heard Salk (I have not) have really loved them - that is not true for all. Certainly the same can be true with Kef, B&W and Revel but often more polarizing. You need to audition for yourself.

Yep. What you did - brought both the Revel Ultima2 & KEF Reference towers home to audition - was the most ideal textbook situation. Could not have done it better.

But we often hear so many people spending $5-$20K on speakers based only on forum opinions. biggrin.gif
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post #33 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Research? That's no fun. Forums are supposed to be fun. smile.gif

Research is something I would have to do for WORK, not for fun. biggrin.gif

But anyway, did you buy the ~ $10K Salk without auditioning first?

I live in Alaska. It is not easy to audition anything from here! I did the best I could with consultations, etc. Jim tried to find a Salk customer in Alaska that would let me come by. The only person in Anchorage didn't respond to him. There is someone in Nome, but that's a plane trip away. At some point, I have to try something! When I have been south, I visit showrooms whenever I can, but listening in a showroom helps very little except for comparing pieces with each other that they have there. Can't tell much about what things would sound like in my room.

Note that my advice to the OP was to listen in home whenever possible.
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post #34 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

I live in Alaska. It is not easy to audition anything from here! I did the best I could with consultations, etc. Jim tried to find a Salk customer in Alaska that would let me come by. The only person in Anchorage didn't respond to him. There is someone in Nome, but that's a plane trip away. At some point, I have to try something! When I have been south, I visit showrooms whenever I can, but listening in a showroom helps very little except for comparing pieces with each other that they have there. Can't tell much about what things would sound like in my room.

Note that my advice to the OP was to listen in home whenever possible.

Good points.

You had me at "Alaska". biggrin.gif

Are there even any Best Buy stores there, much less big stereo Hi-Fi ? biggrin.gif
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post #35 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Good points.

You had me at "Alaska". biggrin.gif

Are there even any Best Buy stores there, much less big stereo Hi-Fi ? biggrin.gif

We have Best Buy/Magnolia. We also have a mid-fi dealer called Pyramid. They carry Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Integra, Marantz. Better than nothing. Though they are moving towards video/home theatre and two channel stuff is getting marginalized. We used to have a local company called Shimek's. I think they are still open in Fairbanks but closed in Anchorage. They were more high end with higher end B&W, Anthem, Magnepan, etc., but now gone.

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post #36 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

Yes, I have a question -- I question exactly when and where you heard our Sierra Ribbon Towers? You claim you have a "friend" who had a 30-day trial on our ribbon towers? We have had just 1 pair of ribbon towers returned in the past year, and that set -- Sir, was located nowhere near you. As a manufacturer trying to sell a product in this industry, I can only recommend that you post the truth. Please PM the name of your "friend" who auditioned our Ribbon Towers so that we can verify, if you do not, I will consider your posts to be defamatory.

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I have zero interest in your opinion of our products or Salks, or any others for that matter. Do not attempt to change the subject. PM me the name of your friend who returned the Sierra Ribbon Towers that you had a chance to listen to. It is certainly not just I who is questioning the speakers you claim to have listened to. If you are telling the truth, I will post as such, simple.

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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

PM received.

As it turns out, Yes -- Mr Naguis has had the opportunity to evaluate our Sierra Towers. Turns out the pair was actually purchased and then returned by Nagy's very own electrical engineer. Go figure rolleyes.gif
I can read the accusation of a company owner calling out someone and demanding proof while insinuating that poster was not telling the truth.
I can read where that poster sent the requested proof.
I can read where company owner realizes he was wrong and called out that poster incorrectly.

What I do not read is a simple apology from that company owner. All company owners should hold their posts to higher standards especially when it's taken to the level of calling someone out . Even an insincere apology is better than no apology at all.

If any of this post is misinformed, incorrect, or I missed something let me say I am Sorry. (It's just that easy)
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post #37 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post



I can read the accusation of a company owner calling out someone and demanding proof while insinuating that poster was not telling the truth.
I can read where that poster sent the requested proof.
I can read where company owner realizes he was wrong and called out that poster incorrectly.

What I do not read is a simple apology from that company owner. All company owners should hold their posts to higher standards especially when it's taken to the level of calling someone out . Even an insincere apology is better than no apology at all.

If any of this post is misinformed, incorrect, or I missed something let me say I am Sorry. (It's just that easy)
Chris

Not to even mention less than subtly threatening a lawsuit, at least as I interpreted it anyway. Wow! Just wow!
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post #38 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 12:15 PM
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It depends if you want bright or warm sounding speakers. Personally, I prefer warm sounding speakers specially if it will be used mainly for music. it will be very relaxing even for long period of listening.

It also depends on the kind of music you are listening to. If you don't need bass thumping speakers, why don't you try Maggies as well. It might not look good in your living room tho.

I have a B&W CM9/ Anthem MRX700 combo so I can tell you the CM10 won't disappoint.
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post #39 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post



I can read the accusation of a company owner calling out someone and demanding proof while insinuating that poster was not telling the truth.
I can read where that poster sent the requested proof.
I can read where company owner realizes he was wrong and called out that poster incorrectly.

What I do not read is a simple apology from that company owner. All company owners should hold their posts to higher standards especially when it's taken to the level of calling someone out . Even an insincere apology is better than no apology at all.

If any of this post is misinformed, incorrect, or I missed something let me say I am Sorry. (It's just that easy)
Chris

Hi Chris,

I appreciate your thoughts.

Under normal circumstances, I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

However, I think you are missing the point here.

that someone you are referring to, NagysAudio, is the owner of a consumer electronics manufacturing company. Said company owner, a self-proclaimed professional in this industry, had his own employee who is, as quoted, "an acoustic engineer w/15 years of loudspeaker design" purchase our products and then return them - of which I suspect was strictly for evaluation purposes with no intention on ever keeping them. Someone he referred to in a previous post as his "friend" -- why not speak the truth and say "I evaluated them at my employee's home"?

Said company owner / nor the employee disclosed such facts to us even during email correspondence. Said company owner joins our forum makes a few posts which upsets our customers -- also without disclosing that he is a manufacturer in this industry.

Said company owner breaks the rules here at AVS forum for not disclosing that he is a manufacturer and has been banned from several major audio forums, including Audioholics and AudioAsylum for what they considered unethical behavior. Said company owner has his "friend" (this same employee) -- post reviews of their company's products as if he is simply just a customer.

Us manufacturers have an unwritten rule about business ethics. We never comment negatively about other manufacturers products, we disclose information to each other and most importantly, there is a very high level of respect. Imagine what type of place AVS and other forums would be if every manufacturer who participates started publicly stating negative opinions about various products and did not practice full disclosure? I am sure this would quickly divulge into a forum that you would not want to take part in.

David Fabrikant

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post #40 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 02:21 PM
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I definitely missed that. ^^^ smile.gif

Thanks for taking the time to explain b/c that does make the difference. Without that knowledge it appeared one sided.

I have read nothing but good things about Ascends over the years and a lot of your posts.
The ones I quoted struck me as odd but now I understand the context.
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post #41 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I definitely missed that. ^^^ smile.gif

Thanks for taking the time to explain b/c that does make the difference. Without that knowledge it appeared one sided.

I have read nothing but good things about Ascends over the years and a lot of your posts.
The ones I quoted struck me as odd but now I understand the context.
cool.gif
Chris

Thanks Chris,

I originally tried to handle it without "outing" too much info as it is not my intention to cause any negativity one way or another. But reading back -- I can see where I should have probably been more transparent. If NagysAudio would simply disclose the proper information in his signature, as is required here at AVS -- much of this could have been avoided.

Anyway, this thread is not about this and I sincerely apologize for derailing it. Back to the discussion between Salk's - B&W's and Kef's, all of which are excellent products.

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

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post #42 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

Hi Chris,

I appreciate your thoughts.

Under normal circumstances, I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

However, I think you are missing the point here.

that someone you are referring to, NagysAudio, is the owner of a consumer electronics manufacturing company. Said company owner, a self-proclaimed professional in this industry, had his own employee who is, as quoted, "an acoustic engineer w/15 years of loudspeaker design" purchase our products and then return them - of which I suspect was strictly for evaluation purposes with no intention on ever keeping them. Someone he referred to in a previous post as his "friend" -- why not speak the truth and say "I evaluated them at my employee's home"?

Said company owner / nor the employee disclosed such facts to us even during email correspondence. Said company owner joins our forum makes a few posts which upsets our customers -- also without disclosing that he is a manufacturer in this industry.

Said company owner breaks the rules here at AVS forum for not disclosing that he is a manufacturer and has been banned from several major audio forums, including Audioholics and AudioAsylum for what they considered unethical behavior. Said company owner has his "friend" (this same employee) -- post reviews of their company's products as if he is simply just a customer.

Us manufacturers have an unwritten rule about business ethics. We never comment negatively about other manufacturers products, we disclose information to each other and most importantly, there is a very high level of respect. Imagine what type of place AVS and other forums would be if every manufacturer who participates started publicly stating negative opinions about various products and did not practice full disclosure? I am sure this would quickly divulge into a forum that you would not want to take part in.

I have no employees. I have friends and consultants who do this as a hobby. Are you saying that people I know are not allowed to buy your products, or any other products besides Nagys Audio? I own enough products from different manufacturers to open an audio shop. And so do many audio fans I know. I briefly heard your speakers and didn't care for them at all. Not a ribbon fan. But people I know are. Good for them. Are you accusing me of having someone buy your speakers so that I could evaluate them? For what? Are you out of your mind entirely? I'm getting tired of your accusations and PM threats.

So everyone knows, this is the line that started Ascend to call me a liar and all sorts of other accusations and PM threats: "CMs are better sounding than Salk, or Ascend."

I've got quite a few PMs from people who tell me that this is not the first time you've threatened someone for leaving even the slightest negative comments in regards to Ascend.

You're making us both look bad, so I'm out of this thread. Peace.
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post #43 of 50 Old 02-21-2014, 09:02 PM
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To the OP.............you can trial the Ascends for 30 days for shipping cost only( maybe even longer if you call Dave personally). You can also PM Jim Salk on his website to see if there is a Salk owner close to you....I'll bet there are several in the L.A. area who would let you listen at their place ( not the same as home, but close enough to get an idea).

You should be able to get the B&W folks to let you test-drive the CM9's at home as well for 2 weeks or so.

Then you can make an honest appraisal......

Good listening!!
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post #44 of 50 Old 02-22-2014, 07:19 AM
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When I was shopping Salk a year and a half ago, Jim did accept returns on stock finishes of his lower end - at least the song towers.

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post #45 of 50 Old 02-22-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

When I was shopping Salk a year and a half ago, Jim did accept returns on stock finishes of his lower end - at least the song towers.

Interesting. Straight from his website:

"On lower priced models with a standard finish, we offer a 30-day in-home trial period. You can feel free to return the speakers within 30 days, in new condition, for a refund in the event they do not perform to your satisfaction.With “custom” finishes and/or more expensive speakers, this is not practical. If we only offered three or four standard finishes, it would not be a problem. But normally customers who order our higher-priced speakers want them finished to their personal taste. So if they were returned, we would have to wait until another customer wanted the exact same finish before we could recoup our costs. Unfortunately, this would not work for us.However, in a case like this, we would work to find a new home for the speakers and process a refund once the speakers were re-sold. Our speakers normally sell quite quickly on the used market, so it would probably not take all that long.All that said, we almost never have returns and it is unlikely that you would ever feel the need to return our speakers. The reason is quite simple: They are that good."

http://www.salksound.com/faq.htm#trial
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post #46 of 50 Old 02-22-2014, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

I definitely missed that. ^^^ smile.gif

Thanks for taking the time to explain b/c that does make the difference. Without that knowledge it appeared one sided.

I have read nothing but good things about Ascends over the years and a lot of your posts.
The ones I quoted struck me as odd but now I understand the context.
cool.gif
Chris

Yeah, in case you guys are not aware, Audioholics labeled that Nagys guy "a forum troll idiot who just begs for attention" before they banned him. biggrin.gif

I think he claimed at one point that he has auditioned about 1,000 speakers in a year. Right. rolleyes.gif
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post #47 of 50 Old 02-22-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, in case you guys are not aware, Audioholics labeled that Nagys guy "a forum troll idiot who just begs for attention" before they banned him. biggrin.gif

I think he claimed at one point that he has auditioned about 1,000 speakers in a year. Right. rolleyes.gif

Probably best just to ignore him since he is a trouble maker and in his post he has come off bad anyways.

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post #48 of 50 Old 02-22-2014, 09:07 AM
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I have to add my recommendation to the many who have already recommended either Salk or Ascend speakers. Although I own Salk SongTowers, both makes are excellent in general, and the owners/designers of these ID companies have deservedly excellent reputations. In the Los Angeles area it ought to be easy to find ways to audition both.

Thanks to Dave Fabrikant of Ascend who called out and exposed the nagging poster for his dishonest and underhanded statements.

I personally don't like the B&W sound. I hear break up noise from their Kevlar mid woofers, probably because they are crossed over to the tweeters at such a high frequency of 4 kHz. This, depending on the music, can generate harsh sounding lower treble, that many people mistakenly attribute to the tweeter. To be fair, the B&W 800 series also use a similar approach and they do not suffer from that problem. But they cost significantly more than the 600 or CM series. I don't know what the OP prefers in speakers, but I definitely agree with his thought that he might pay too much for the B&W name.

And now for something completely different…
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The system will be designed for primarily music. With a sideboard along the backwall with a turntable, and a long RCA cable run under the floor boards to the front right corner where currently cable box and HDMI from the TV etc is housed. Although we watch television and movies, I can't see us ever expanding to anything beyond maybe a 5.1 system.  Regardless, the focus now is for a great 2/2.1 system for music with an asterisk of potential movie expansion, since we are probably 65% music 20% TV 15% movie.

Do you already have that turntable set up in the back of the room with the very long cable? Why did you choose that location? You might benefit if you move it closer to your AVR. Do you have your turntable connected via a phono pre-amp, or is it directly connected to the AVR's dedicated phono jacks and it's internal phono pre-amp? Either way, that is an unnecessarily long run.

If you are using an external phono pre-amp, it might be alright as is, but I would still try to find a way to make that cable run much shorter. The signal level downstream from the phono pre-amp will be about 100 millivolts (mV) and may, or may not, suffer noise pick up or signal loss from such a long run.

However, if that long cable runs direct from the turntable to the AVR, you should definitely move the turntable closer – much closer. The signal level of the pickup cartridge is very low, about 4 or 5 mV. Any RCA cable longer than about 4 feet, carrying such a weak signal is prone to picking up noise (electromagnetic interference), and the capacitance of the long cable can filter out some of the treble part of the signal. That's why most turntables come with a hard wired signal cable no longer than 4 feet.
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post #49 of 50 Old 02-24-2014, 11:14 AM
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Just a couple of quick comments...

As many of you know, Salk Sound is a custom builder. That means that while we feel the RAAL ribbon tweeter is among the very best tweeters being made today, we build speakers for our customers, not ourselves. So if a customer feels a dome tweeter is more to his/her liking, that is no problem.

In the end, we don't feel it is our place to tell anyone what to prefer. Our job is to create the speaker of their dreams, regardless of whether or not we would choose to build that same design for ourselves. If someone has doubts or questions, it is our job to provide them with the technical background to best be able to make a decision. And we build whatever they decide they want built.

Another thing worth noting is that we voice our speakers for a frequency response that is as accurate and flat as possible. Some people, especially individuals with sensitivity to certain frequencies, may not prefer flat response. They may prefer to have the tweeter level padded down a db or so, for example. This is also not a problem. While the FR will no longer be flat, the important thing is that the owner be happy with the sound of his/her speakers.

We feel our approach to the above issues allows us to produce speakers that best meet the needs of our customers. In the end, that is the only thing that matters.

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post #50 of 50 Old 02-24-2014, 02:20 PM
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I have a hard time thinking of Salk Sound as the "Burger King" of speaker manufacturers ( i.e Have it your way).....especially when he uses Kobe beef and artisan rolls for main ingredients.............
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