Cross-Over Settings - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 24 Old 02-20-2014, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My system consists of an Onkyo TX-Sr604, Polk Monitors 60s for mains, Polk CS1 center, and Polk OWM3s for surround. Just received my BIC PL-200. My Onkyo will not allow you to set the speakers to large or small, you have to set a cross-over for each speaker. I set the sub at 80. Need advice on what to set cross-over for remaining speakers. Any help would be great. Thanks, Jim
Cocahoe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 02-20-2014, 02:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 362
Setting all speakers to 80 is a good starting point.

However, when you run the Audyssey calibration it should set them for you. You should run Audyssey whenever you change your speakers, including after adding a subwoofer. See page 38 of the 604's owner's manual.

Selden
Selden Ball is online now  
post #3 of 24 Old 02-20-2014, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I do not have the Audyssey microphone. Looking for suggestions?? Should sub be the same as all of the speakers???
Cocahoe is offline  
post #4 of 24 Old 02-20-2014, 03:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
There isn't a crossover setting for the subwoofer. That setting is the LPF of LFE setting and it should be set at 120hz. That's also what Audssey recommends. If you set it any lower you're throwing out information from the LFE channel that wont be recovered. Audyssey does not set the speaker crossovers. The receiver does. The setting that the auto calibration selects isn't always the best crossover setting. 80hz is the most commonly used crossover. It's a steep 4th order crossover and it gives a dynamic sound as long as you have a properly placed capable subwoofer. It also takes a load off of the amplifiers in your AVR.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 02-20-2014, 07:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post

That setting is the LPF of LFE setting and it should be set at 120hz. That's also what Audssey recommends. If you set it any lower you're throwing out information from the LFE channel that wont be recovered. .
That's seldom actually the case. The LFE bandwidth is specified to run no higher than 120Hz. In practice there tends to be little actual LFE channel information above 80Hz.
Quote:
Should sub be the same as all of the speakers???
It's quite common for the best results to be had if the sub low pass filter is set lower than 120Hz, though never lower than the AVR crossover frequency. If you can directionally locate the sub turn the low pass filter frequency down gradually until you can't. When it sounds right it is right.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 04:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 362
The LFE low pass filter affects only the incoming LFE audio channel. If it affects the low bass-managed frequencies which are being redirected from the other speaker channels, then your receiver (or pre/pro) has a defective design. (Such things have been known to happen.) If bass management is enabled (some or all of your speakers are set to "Small") turning the LFE LPF down will only partially affect how localizable your subwoofer is. That's primarily affected by how low the crossover frequencies are for your bass-managed speakers.

80 Hz is the recommended crossover frequency because frequencies that low are hard to localize. However, the audio filters used are not "brick walls", so some higher frequencies are sent to the subwoofer, and with very careful listening you probably can determine where the subwoofer is located. Of course, if any of your speakers require higher crossover frequencies, it's that much easier. However, being able to determine from careful listening where your subwoofer is located generally is considered to be less of a problem than the distortions which arise when you try to drive speakers to higher volume levels than they're designed to handle at those low frequencies.

Selden
Selden Ball is online now  
post #7 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 04:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,582
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 175
I have all my speakers set to small 70hz, even the sub. I don't like 120hz for the sub crossover it's too high. Won't that 70hz+ from the LFE channel be re-directed to the mains then? Lexicon pre

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is online now  
post #8 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 06:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

I have all my speakers set to small 70hz, even the sub. I don't like 120hz for the sub crossover it's too high. Won't that 70hz+ from the LFE channel be re-directed to the mains then? Lexicon pre
All of the LFE goes to the sub, no matter what the AVR crossover is set at. if you have the sub low pass filter also set at 70Hz you'll lose some of the LFE content, but not much. With a 70Hz setting in the AVR you probably don't have to run the sub low pass at 70Hz to eliminate all directional content, 100Hz would probably be sufficient. I'd try taking that up in 5Hz steps, and if you do reach a point where you can locate it drop it back down a bit from there.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 06:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 168
Set the Monitor 60s to 60hz, CS1 to 80hz, and OWM3 to 100hz

and the subwoofer LPF to 120hz
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
CrazyRob where did you get your info. Do you have the same setup as I do??
Cocahoe is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

CrazyRob where did you get your info. Do you have the same setup as I do??
No I don't but I have heard a similar setup with those settings

I got those numbers by the speaker specs.
Monitor 60's are 48hz-24k hz (-3db) so 60hz works
CS1 is 65hz-24k hz (-3db) so 80hz works
OWM3's is 100hz-24k hz (-3db) so 100hz works
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 02-21-2014, 06:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

No I don't but I have heard a similar setup with those settings

I got those numbers by the speaker specs.
Monitor 60's are 48hz-24k hz (-3db) so 60hz works
CS1 is 65hz-24k hz (-3db) so 80hz works
OWM3's is 100hz-24k hz (-3db) so 100hz works
Specs don't say when the drivers will run out of excursion, causing distortion. If the speakers distort at high volume that may be cured with a higher crossover. One just has to be sure the distortion is sourced in the midbasses, not the tweeters. If the tweeters distort you must turn it down or risk damaging them.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 02-23-2014, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I thank everybody for their responses. I am still somewhat new to all of this. What am i listening for when I make these cross-over settings?? Do I leave the BIC PL-200 at 80?? Thanks again.
Cocahoe is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 10:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

I thank everybody for their responses. I am still somewhat new to all of this. What am i listening for when I make these cross-over settings?? Do I leave the BIC PL-200 at 80?? Thanks again.
You referring to the knob on the back of the subwoofer or the setting on receiver ? If the knob on the back of the subwoofer turn that to max but at least higher than 120hz. The receiver's only settings for the subwoofer is Yes or No. if the manual is to believe
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My question is When I make the cross-over settings on all of the speakers including the sub how do I know they are correct?? Are these just suggestions and there is no right or wrong? Is it personnel preference?? Thanks
Cocahoe is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 01:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,582
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Look in your manuals for speakers. Look at the frequency response, and set your amp crossover no lower than that the low bass response.
crazyrob425 likes this.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is online now  
post #17 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 01:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

My question is When I make the cross-over settings on all of the speakers including the sub how do I know they are correct?? Are these just suggestions and there is no right or wrong? Is it personnel preference?? Thanks
First off your receiver has no crossover setting or low pass filter settings for the subwoofer. You are best to just cranking the knob on the back of the subwoofer.

A lot of crossover settings have to do with your personal preference and you can pick what sounds best to you. If you want to get scientific you will need a sound level meter and a test tone CD. But its more hassle than worth it. What did Audyssey set your speakers crossovers at?

The Monitor 60's can be set from 60hz-80hz, whatever sounds best to you
The CS1 performs best at 80hz and most people would agree
The OWM3's will work with a 100hz

Using the settings I recommended will work for your setup.

Have your run Audyssey 2EQ? What were the settings it used for your speakers?
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 01:48 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,427
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

I thank everybody for their responses. I am still somewhat new to all of this. What am i listening for when I make these cross-over settings?? Do I leave the BIC PL-200 at 80?? Thanks again.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

My question is When I make the cross-over settings on all of the speakers including the sub how do I know they are correct?? Are these just suggestions and there is no right or wrong? Is it personnel preference?? Thanks

Unless you are very experienced, you cannot do this by ear.  Suggestions from others are not relevant since your particular room and the speaker positions are unique.

 

Get the microphone and run Audyssey.  


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 02:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,582
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Generally the auto crossover picks the wrong one, I guess it picks up the room gain, thinking it's the speakers natural response but it's not. What should happen is you set crossovers before, so the calibration procedure know what the actual response is.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is online now  
post #20 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 02:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

My question is When I make the cross-over settings on all of the speakers including the sub how do I know they are correct?? Are these just suggestions and there is no right or wrong? Is it personnel preference?? Thanks
The purpose of the crossover frequency is two-fold. On the one hand it needs to be as low as the mains will allow, so that there's no directional content from the sub. OTOH the lower the mains are run the less headroom there is, for both the main speakers and the AVR amps, as both excursion and power demands on the mains and power demand on the AVR amps go up as frequency goes down. So the bottom line is yes, personal preference has a lot to do with it, that having to do with how loud you run your system. The louder you want to run it the higher the crossover must be, but that comes at the expense of getting the best overall sound. I already explained to you what you should be doing with the low pass setting on the sub amp.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #21 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 03:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,427
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

1.  Generally the auto crossover picks the wrong one, I guess it picks up the room gain, thinking it's the speakers natural response but it's not.
2.  What should happen is you set crossovers before, so the calibration procedure know what the actual response is.

1.  That is possible but not assured and, besides, it is usually due to the AVR manufacturer's decisions.  Using Audyssey, he will also get the correct delays, levels and EQ.

2.  That is impossible.  Audyssey ignores/resets all such settings made prior to the calibration procedure.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Cocahoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks again guys. Just want it to sound as good as it can.
Cocahoe is offline  
post #23 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 06:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 1,972
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

Thanks again guys. Just want it to sound as good as it can.

So that you can see, and hear the differences, you could set everything manually first, then listen to one of your reference albums...something you know very well. Then do the auto set up. You'll see where the numbers are (if they changed), and then do some more listening to the same album.

Espo77
Espo77 is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old 02-24-2014, 06:45 PM
Senior Member
 
MarsianMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

A lot of crossover settings have to do with your personal preference and you can pick what sounds best to you. If you want to get scientific you will need a sound level meter and a test tone CD. But its more hassle than worth it. [...]

Worth is pretty subjective. It costs money and time but I don't think I've wasted anything doing it. It's certainly helping me to learn more about how audio works in a room. The OP may agree with you or not, but hard to know without being them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocahoe View Post

My question is When I make the cross-over settings on all of the speakers including the sub how do I know they are correct?? Are these just suggestions and there is no right or wrong? Is it personnel preference?? Thanks
If you really want to know the best crossover setting you should get a SPL meter or calibrated microphone and measure your frequency response with something like REW. They have calibration files for Radio Shack SPL meters. I am not sure how accurate they are but the box says +- 2 db.

From my measurements (my speakers go down similarly to the 40s) my best measurement was at 60 Hz crossover. It didn't really change the bass but it did help flatten out the high end response for my mains a bit.
MarsianMan is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Onkyo Tx Sr604 7 1 Channel A V Receiver Black , Polk Audio Am6095 B Monitor60 Series Ii Floorstanding Loudspeaker Black Each , Polk Audio Monitor Series Cs1 Center Channel Speaker Single Black , Polk Audio Owm3 On Wall Speaker Pair White
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off