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post #31 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JaredSD View Post

I think it sounds ok...the sub seems like the gain has to be turned up a lot more with these settings. I did the 150hz on it, and it seems like the gain needs to be about 2/3 way up to really feel some decent bass. Does this make sense what is happening?

Also, now that Audyssey has done its thing. Should I change the Center from 60 to 80?
That's primarily a personal preference option. Raising the crossover does reduce the load on the receiver, shifting it to the sub along with those low frequencies. Try it and see how it sounds. The slightly different room acoustics in that frequency range, between the speaker and the sub, is going to make a difference in what you hear. I've seen posts by people who've reported improved audio with significantly higher crossovers.
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In addition, what about basic DB loudness settings. I see that Audyssey set those, but would throng things off if I did want some of the speakers louder and did it manually?
Changing the trim levels won't affect the Audyssey equalization for the speakers, although it will somewhat "confuse" DynEQ. Changing all of the settings by the same amount is the same as changing the master volume control by that amount.
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post #32 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Perfect, thanks. I suppose there is a little wiggle room from this point. I knew I was never going to get the sound perfect, as people rarely have the room for that anyway. Close to good is what works for me I suppose and the information so far here has been great.
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post #33 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 09:47 AM
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Have you tried putting a carpet/rug down in front of the speakers (I know you don't want one there to walk on for some reason) to see if it changes the Audyssey setup?

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post #34 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I have not. It would look odd there. This is all a balance after all. I can't just be throwing rugs in odd places haha. In addition, the speakers would not even line up with a rug; they would be too far out in the room, which would stick out worse than a rug. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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post #35 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Have you tried putting a carpet/rug down in front of the speakers (I know you don't want one there to walk on for some reason) to see if it changes the Audyssey setup?
A 200 Hz sound wavelength is 5.6 ft. long. A 100 Hz wavelength is 11.25 ft. To absorb those frequencies enough to impact the peaks and nulls, he would need absorption 8" to a foot thick. He could try stacking 2 dozen pillows across the front of the room. That *might* help, but a simple rug will have minimal to no effect at these frequencies. The only two things that will really help are to move the speakers and or sub, or to move the listening position.

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post #36 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Which I did, thanks to Craig's help. I think I have found the best possible spot I can for what I have.
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post #37 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 12:37 PM
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I had read the first few about reflections when I posted, now I've read the balance. I had wondered if you had tried putting something there or not to see if affected results. How different are your former bookshelves in terms of positioning? What were they?

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post #38 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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If you look at the first picture in this thread, and above the left tower speaker, you will see a vase with spiky stuff coming out of it. That is where the bookshelf was positioned. It was not a huge one; 8 1/2" H x 5 1/2" W x 6 1/4" D. This is what they were....http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/velodyne-cht-speakers-8-2000.html. They other bookshelf was located in the same spot opposite side.
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post #39 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 12:58 PM
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Question to the OP:

Have you set all the speakers to small and a 80hz crossover and given your system a listen yet? Does it sound like you are missing anything?

Not saying just set it and forget it but give it a try.
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post #40 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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They are all set to small. I did not straight up set them to 80 to try it out. I just assumed that I should use audyssey did first to find the correct levels.
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post #41 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 01:41 PM
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Another option is to just not use Audyssey. Your sub probably drops off really fast past 100hz so having it crossed over at 150hz means you're still going to be missing something. Just because your AVR has room correction doesn't mean you have to use it.

Use it to set up the distance and levels then disable it and set your own crossovers to suit your ear.
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post #42 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Another option is to just not use Audyssey.
Jared has a concern because Audyssey set the crossovers for his mains at point he thought was too high given the bass response his speakers have. Audyssey determines the crossover setting by looking at the frequency response measurements and finding the -3 dB rolloff point. It obviously found a high -3 dB rolloff point. Please explain how not using Audyssey "fixes" that problem.

Ignoring Audyssey's measurements without correcting the underlying problem, will just lead to more problems. If you don't like Audyssey's EQ, that's fine. But ignoring a real problem found by Audyssey tells me you don't understand anything about how Audyssey works or what it's measurements mean. Therefore, your advice is equally suspect.
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Your sub probably drops off really fast past 100hz so having it crossed over at 150hz means you're still going to be missing something. Just because your AVR has room correction doesn't mean you have to use it.
From the BIC H100 webpage:
Quote:
Frequency Response: 24Hz - 200Hz (+/- 3dB) variable (adjustable crossover)
http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.php?brand=1&type=8&spkrID=26
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Use it to set up the distance and levels then disable it and set your own crossovers to suit your ear.
If you're going to give the guy this advice, at least tell him what he should listen for.

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post #43 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaredSD View Post

If you look at the first picture in this thread, and above the left tower speaker, you will see a vase with spiky stuff coming out of it. That is where the bookshelf was positioned. It was not a huge one; 8 1/2" H x 5 1/2" W x 6 1/4" D. This is what they were....http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/velodyne-cht-speakers-8-2000.html. They other bookshelf was located in the same spot opposite side.

Some bass reinforcement from the bookshelf cavity before?

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post #44 of 49 Old 02-27-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Jared has a concern because Audyssey set the crossovers for his mains at point he thought was too high given the bass response his speakers have. Audyssey determines the crossover setting by looking at the frequency response measurements and finding the -3 dB rolloff point. It obviously found a high -3 dB rolloff point. Please explain how not using Audyssey "fixes" that problem.

Ignoring Audyssey's measurements without correcting the underlying problem, will just lead to more problems. If you don't like Audyssey's EQ, that's fine. But ignoring a real problem found by Audyssey tells me you don't understand anything about how Audyssey works or what it's measurements mean. Therefore, your advice is equally suspect.
From the BIC H100 webpage:
http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.php?brand=1&type=8&spkrID=26
If you're going to give the guy this advice, at least tell him what he should listen for.

Craig
First you seem to believe that Audessey is infallible. It is not. It's like any other software-hardware interface. I also understand how it works and I also understand that it doesn't work correctly all the time.
How do you or anyone know that Audyssey found anything but a bad mic or other Audyssey issue.

As for the bic sub if it's flat from 24-200hz for less than $300 there would be no reason for anyone to buy subs like the SVS SB 13 ultra no would there? Real world it's much more likely to be 30-100+- 3db than what bic claims.

I suggested he turn it off and let his ears determine how it sounds not some cheap mic running some software that makes non adjustable take it or leave changes as determined by a programmer.

Jeez, get over yourself.

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post #45 of 49 Old 02-28-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JaredSD View Post

They are all set to small. I did not straight up set them to 80 to try it out. I just assumed that I should use audyssey did first to find the correct levels.
Set the crossovers to 80hz and give it a listen is what I am telling you to do. listen as low to low mid volume. If there is a problem with one of speakers which many people here seem to be thinking their is you might be able to hear it instead of trying all these other solutions.

Maybe a midrange driver in one tower wires got disconnected.

Try 80hz crossover and see if you hear a problem.
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

I suggested he turn it off and let his ears determine how it sounds not some cheap mic running some software that makes non adjustable take it or leave changes as determined by a programmer.
x 1,000,000
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post #46 of 49 Old 02-28-2014, 06:40 AM
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Audyssey doesn't seem to handle phase issues between subs, fronts and room too well. Using Audyssey and its settings, have someone switch the phase on the sub from 0 to 180 while you are seated in the normal listening position and playing source material with some decent bass. The sub phase setting in the AVR speaker setup should be set to 0.

 

See what effect lowering the XO of the fronts and phase switching has. Document settings as you go along. You can run the Audyssey setup again if it turns out that the opposite phase to what was used before suits you better. Otherwise, continue using Audyssey but with the optimal front XO frequency and sub phase you obtained manually.

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post #47 of 49 Old 02-28-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

First you seem to believe that Audessey is infallible. It is not. It's like any other software-hardware interface. I also understand how it works and I also understand that it doesn't work correctly all the time.
How do you or anyone know that Audyssey found anything but a bad mic or other Audyssey issue.
I have never stated that Audyssey was "infallible." Nor have I ever stated that it works perfectly all the time. In fact, I have often pointed out Audyssey's weaknesses. Audyssey is an a attempt to apply a generic, one-size-fits-all, solution to address the very specific problems of a given room, and every room is different. In addition, it is unable to "know" anything about the room other than the measurements it takes. It has very limited ability to provide information about the room to help with pre-Audyssey optimization for speaker placement, listening position and acoustic treatments. All it can do is measure the FR and time-domain response at a few points inside the room and then "invert" those responses with signal shaping to compensate. It doesn't even have the ability to go back and check the responses afterwards to ensure it has done the job correctly. It takes HUMAN interaction at multiple different points in the process to ensure you get optimal results. I have made this point repeatedly to many different Audyssey users and forum members. Even though you can't make direct adjustments to the EQ filters, there are many other ways of using the information provided by Audyssey to tweak and adjust the results.

In addition to the room correction, Audyssey also performs a calibration for levels and distances, as well as sets Bass Management parameters of speaker size and crossovers. (Actually, Audyssey doesn't "set" the crossovers. It reports the -3 dB point it measures to the receiver or pre/pro, and the manufacturer of the receiver or pre/pro makes the decision about what to do with that information to "set" the crossovers. If the crossovers are set incorrectly, it's really not Audyssey's "fault." Audyssey is just the messenger; it's the design engineer of the receiver who actually made the decision on what crossover to use.)

Nonetheless, in spite of all its' inherent weakness, it is still possible to get an excellent result with Audyssey. It requires the user to evaluate the Audyssey results in the context of the system and make adjustments to optimize things. In Jared's case, Audyssey found a higher than expected rolloff for his L/R mains. What could cause that? You seem to want to blame it on a bad mic. The same "bad" mic found a -3 dB rolloff point below 60 Hz for the CC. I think that safely rules out the mic as the culprit. (Or, do you believe that Audyssey, using the same mic, in the same position, somehow erroneously found a high rolloff point for one of the L/R speakers while, at the same time, it also found a much lower rolloff point for the CC? If you believe that, please explain how and why that would occur.)

The "transfer function" from the speaker position to the listening position is the most obvious cause for the higher than expected rolloff of the speakers. The "transfer function" is the sum of all the boundary interactions that occur between the speaker, the room and the listener. How do you improve the transfer function? You move the speaker, or the listener, or both. That's how you correct the problem. Telling the OP to "just not use Audyssey" doesn't even address the problem. (Or, do you believe the high rolloff point will magically go away if you "just don't use Audyssey"? If you believe that, please explain how and why that would occur.)

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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

As for the bic sub if it's flat from 24-200hz for less than $300 there would be no reason for anyone to buy subs like the SVS SB 13 ultra no would there? Real world it's much more likely to be 30-100+- 3db than what bic claims
Here is another BIC sub tested by Josh Ricci of Data Bass:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47 (see the "Measurements" tab.
That sub is $200 cheaper than the H-100 that Jared owns, but they're both 12", ported subs. Yes, the FR is pretty much as you claim, at about 30 to 100 Hz, +/- 3 dB. But that is due to the big peak at 45 Hz. If you look at the average output across the whole bandwidth, the PL-200 has very useable output up to 300 Hz, (see the 3rd graph in the measurements above entitled "Full Range Response" that show it to be +/- 2 dB from 100 to 300 Hz.) There is no reason to believe that the H-100 wouldn't be able to have similar, if not better output in the upper subwoofer range. BIC spec's it to 200 Hz, and that spec seems achievable. It's a trivial matter for a sub to have useable output upwards to 200 Hz. Most all subs can do that. It's the lower frequency extension that is difficult and costs money. The reason people own other, "better" subs than the BIC subs is that other subs offer more output, deeper LF extension, lower distortion, etc. Nonetheless, your speculative argument that BIC subs only extend to 100 Hz simply does not hold up, at least not on any practical, real world, level.

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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

I suggested he turn it off and let his ears determine how it sounds not some cheap mic running some software that makes non adjustable take it or leave changes as determined by a programmer.

Jeez, get over yourself.
If you had proposed some explanation for the high rolloff of his speakers besides a defective mic, (that clearly wasn't the problem), or some "other Audysssey issue", (such as ???), and then proposed a solution to that problem that didn't involve Audyssey, I would have taken your comments seriously. As it is, your suggestion to "just don't use Audyssey" merely proves your inability to analyze the actual problem. The actual problem is that his speakers and listening position are in suboptimal locations, and the solution is to move them. If he wants to "just not use Audyssey" after that, he will at least have used the information Audyssey provided, and realized the benefit of more optimal speaker/LP placement.

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post #48 of 49 Old 05-30-2014, 11:11 PM
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Hi guys This is my lounge room here and I'm trying to sort out problems with where ive got speakers etc

placed- as you can see ive only got so much room but any advice on setup or feedback on what you would do if it was you setting it up would be appreciated. The front speakers are probably a bit big for the room but they came from another house so you have to work with what you've got-i put them about 80cm out from the back wall which seems to help them breathe a bit (they have the bass reflex ports on the back) but any ideas you guys have i'd be keen to hear

 

 

  

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post #49 of 49 Old 05-31-2014, 05:58 AM
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Hi guys This is my lounge room here and I'm trying to sort out problems with where ive got speakers etc
placed- as you can see ive only got so much room but any advice on setup or feedback on what you would do if it was you setting it up would be appreciated. The front speakers are probably a bit big for the room but they came from another house so you have to work with what you've got-i put them about 80cm out from the back wall which seems to help them breathe a bit (they have the bass reflex ports on the back) but any ideas you guys have i'd be keen to hear
Hi,

This thread is about Audyssey and Audyssey settings. Your questions don't seem to be Audyssey related. I suggest you start a new thread of your own and ask your questions there. Add the following details: system components, speakers and sub(s), placement of sub(s), any EQ options you have, and your ability to take acoustic measurements. Starting your own thread will get you more, and better, responses.

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