Does the Denon 1613 have enough power to drive Polk RTi8 and CSi5? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I could snag a nice deal on a pair of RTi8s and a CSi5 for about $450. Some have mentioned to me that the Denon 1613 isn't powerful enough to drive those as well as surrounds for a 5.1 system. Would I need to upgrade to a more powerful receiver in order drive these effectively? Thanks!
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post #2 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

I could snag a nice deal on a pair of RTi8s and a CSi5 for about $450. Some have mentioned to me that the Denon 1613 isn't powerful enough to drive those as well as surrounds for a 5.1 system. Would I need to upgrade to a more powerful receiver in order drive these effectively? Thanks!

How loud do you plan on playing them?

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post #3 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mr266 View Post

How loud do you plan on playing them?

Well, the room is 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. I tried to toy around with it a little bit with my Polk RTi4s just recently, and it seems that during some scenes of "Captain Philips", around 55-60 for volume seemed good. That was with Polk RTi4s as my mains, BIc 62 CLRS center channel, and then a Bic F12 subwoofer. I know I don't have a matching center, but I'm working on that. Thoughts?
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post #4 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Well, the room is 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. I tried to toy around with it a little bit with my Polk RTi4s just recently, and it seems that during some scenes of "Captain Philips", around 55-60 for volume seemed good. That was with Polk RTi4s as my mains, BIc 62 CLRS center channel, and then a Bic F12 subwoofer. I know I don't have a matching center, but I'm working on that. Thoughts?

You'll be able to drive them fine, but you'll have to be careful how loud you play them. Looks like your avr is 75wpc (if indeed that is an accurate measurement) so the louder you play them with an underpowered avr the better chance of clipping. Just be careful to keep the volume at a reasonable volume (at that could still be pretty darn loud) but also have an eye on upgrading the avr sometime in the future.

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post #5 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mr266 View Post

You'll be able to drive them fine, but you'll have to be careful how loud you play them. Looks like your avr is 75wpc (if indeed that is an accurate measurement) so the louder you play them with an underpowered avr the better chance of clipping. Just be careful to keep the volume at a reasonable volume (at that could still be pretty darn loud) but also have an eye on upgrading the avr sometime in the future.

Thanks. Now, maybe you can answer something for me here: Yes, my AVR says 75 wpc. This is just two channels driven together, correct? Would it then be like 30-40 watts per channel if I'm doing a 5.1 setup? And, would it be an issue if I plan on running a CSi5 along with the RTi8? Thanks!!
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post #6 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Thanks. Now, maybe you can answer something for me here: Yes, my AVR says 75 wpc. This is just two channels driven together, correct? Would it then be like 30-40 watts per channel if I'm doing a 5.1 setup? And, would it be an issue if I plan on running a CSi5 along with the RTi8? Thanks!!

I'm no expert, but the simple answer is that it's hard to tell. Sometimes it depends on the brand of avr and even where it is in the line of avrs of the brand as to how much it dips when going beyond 2 channels. For sure the wpc will go down, but remember that you never get all channels requiring max power at the same time, and also using a sub takes away some of the overhead from the rest of the speakers as well. My AVR is listed at 100wpc 6ohm but has no listing for 8ohm, so I suspect I'm getting approximately what you have with your Denon, and I can play my RTI8's quite loud without distortion. An AVR upgrade is first on my list however, followed closely by a new sub.

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post #7 of 26 Old 02-26-2014, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh so you have the Rti8? Can I ask how you like them and what you had before? I'm running the Rti4s as mains and trying to decide if it will be a noticeable improvement or not. What center speaker do you have?
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post #8 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Oh so you have the Rti8? Can I ask how you like them and what you had before? I'm running the Rti4s as mains and trying to decide if it will be a noticeable improvement or not. What center speaker do you have?

I have the RTI8's as my mains, the RTI4's as surrounds, and the CSI5 as my center, and I love them all. The 8's are more detailed, more mid bass and more overall presence than the 4's, but have the same tone, so if you like the 4's you'll love the 8's. I'm not saying you wouldn't like the 4's as mains with your sub, but the 8's with your sub will really bring you in to music and movies a lot more.
I had Acoustic Research speakers before these that were from the early 80's, and I loved them and wouldn't have parted with them if my dog hadn't destroyed them. To me, the 8's are just as good so I'm really happy and will only be "upgrading" if I decide to change out the system I have in my secondary theater. If and when I do that, I may move the 8's over there and then pick up a the RTIa9's for the main theater...then again, I may just pick up some more 8's, I like them that much. biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Thanks. Now, maybe you can answer something for me here: Yes, my AVR says 75 wpc. This is just two channels driven together, correct? Would it then be like 30-40 watts per channel if I'm doing a 5.1 setup? And, would it be an issue if I plan on running a CSi5 along with the RTi8? Thanks!!

The previous year's Denon 1612 was tested and found to put out 104 watts/channel with 2 channels driven into 8 ohms with 0.1% distortion. Most likely Denon didn't weaken the amplifier and your receiver would be able to do the same.

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post #10 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mr266 View Post

I have the RTI8's as my mains, the RTI4's as surrounds, and the CSI5 as my center, and I love them all. The 8's are more detailed, more mid bass and more overall presence than the 4's, but have the same tone, so if you like the 4's you'll love the 8's. I'm not saying you wouldn't like the 4's as mains with your sub, but the 8's with your sub will really bring you in to music and movies a lot more.
I had Acoustic Research speakers before these that were from the early 80's, and I loved them and wouldn't have parted with them if my dog hadn't destroyed them. To me, the 8's are just as good so I'm really happy and will only be "upgrading" if I decide to change out the system I have in my secondary theater. If and when I do that, I may move the 8's over there and then pick up a the RTIa9's for the main theater...then again, I may just pick up some more 8's, I like them that much. biggrin.gif

You just convinced me to go with the RTi8s as mains rather than the 4's. I tried the 4's as mains yesterday with a few movies, and while it sounded fine, I think the 8's would give a little more volume and image to make it just that more convincing of a sound. My next debacle is going with the RTi8s for $250 and the CSi5 for $200, or go with the Cherry RTia5s and the CSia6 in Cherry. I think they look much better than the RTi8s. My logical mind is saying, "Don't you dare pass up the RTi8s and CSi5 for a total of $450" and my analytical mind is saying, "Would you regret just not paying the extra cost to get what you REALLY want?" I admit...the RTia5 and CSiA6 would probably come close to around $750. Ugh...
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post #11 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, my thought is that the money I would save on the RTi8 I could put towards the higher Denon 1713 which would give me a preout for an amplifier to help drive the RTi8s. Man, my mind is on overdrive...lol
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post #12 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Also, my thought is that the money I would save on the RTi8 I could put towards the higher Denon 1713 which would give me a preout for an amplifier to help drive the RTi8s. Man, my mind is on overdrive...lol

I think your priorities are off. You should focus on upgrading your subwoofer instead of your receiver. The BIC F12 is a good budget subwoofer for $200, but there are far, far better sounding subs for a few hundred more. Might even sound better than upgrading your mains, although you should definitely replace your mismatched center channel; that's the biggest problem you currently have, and it should make a bigger difference than going from the RTi4s to the RTi8s in sound quality.

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post #13 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 07:04 AM
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The Denton 1713 doesn't have pre outs for the main channels. Just for zone two.

That won't help you.

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post #14 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Ahhhh....Here I thought the 1713 would give me the option for a second amplifier. Never mind that then. My center channel isn't mismatched by the way. I have the Bic DV-64 towers and the Bic 62CLRS center channel, but I have considered changing those out for the RTi line as i already have the RTi4. I posted this on a different forum and would be curious to hear others opinions: Do you think moving from the Bics I have now to the RTi8s and CSi5 would be a lateral move in terms of quality, or do you think I would be making an actual upgrade. Would love to hear people's thoughts on this.

And yes, I'm aware my sub is not the greatest. That will be my next purchase as I figure I can sell that and opt for an HSU sub.
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post #15 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 07:24 AM
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Sorry. I saw you said above you were running the RTi4s with the BIC center.

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post #16 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Sorry. I saw you said above you were running the RTi4s with the BIC center.

No problem! Do you have a response to my question. Do you think the Polk RTi8 is a worthy upgrade from the Bic Venturi DV-64 and 62 CLRS? I paid $237 for the two towers and center channel all together, but I could get the Polk RTI8 and CSi5 all together for $440. Someone is willing to buy my Bics and Polk RTi4s for $250, so I would have to cough up $190 to get the RTi8s and CSi5.

Whatcha think?
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post #17 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Thanks. Now, maybe you can answer something for me here: Yes, my AVR says 75 wpc. This is just two channels driven together, correct? Would it then be like 30-40 watts per channel if I'm doing a 5.1 setup? And, would it be an issue if I plan on running a CSi5 along with the RTi8? Thanks!!
The previous generation of your receiver bench tested at:
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.5 watts
1% distortion at 79.8 watts
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Denon was pretty accurate with their power ratings. You should have plenty of power with the Polk RTi8's and CSi5. And if you run a cross over for them you will be even better off
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post #18 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

No problem! Do you have a response to my question. Do you think the Polk RTi8 is a worthy upgrade from the Bic Venturi DV-64 and 62 CLRS? I paid $237 for the two towers and center channel all together, but I could get the Polk RTI8 and CSi5 all together for $440. Someone is willing to buy my Bics and Polk RTi4s for $250, so I would have to cough up $190 to get the RTi8s and CSi5.

Whatcha think?

Do you think that the RTi4s have more refined SQ at moderate listening volumes than the BICs in stereo mode? If so, go for it. Although if you can get the RTi5s and the CSi5 for less, that might be the way to go with the anticipation of the subwoofer upgrade. Then you have the RTi4s for your surrounds.

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post #19 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

The previous generation of your receiver bench tested at:
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.5 watts
1% distortion at 79.8 watts
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Denon was pretty accurate with their power ratings. You should have plenty of power with the Polk RTi8's and CSi5. And if you run a cross over for them you will be even better off

Thanks for that information. So it's actually 71 watts with 5 channels driven at the SAME time? I've always been told it drops to like 30-40 watts if they're driven at the same time. I thought the 71 watts was only with 2 channels driven. That's where I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Do you think that the RTi4s have more refined SQ at moderate listening volumes than the BICs in stereo mode? If so, go for it. Although if you can get the RTi5s and the CSi5 for less, that might be the way to go with the anticipation of the subwoofer upgrade. Then you have the RTi4s for your surrounds.

I did do a stereo test with just one single speaker where I put the speaker wire on the terminal, listen to one speaker, then take it off, and go back and forth and try to determine which sounds better. I did a blind test with my wife and she ended up liking the Polk Rti4 better. What is hard, though, is that since the Dv-64 has two woofers it's louder which throws off the test a bit. But the RTi4 does sound more refined, more clear, and less muddy.
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post #20 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 09:01 AM
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But the RTi4 does sound more refined, more clear, and less muddy.

Not surprised. It's generally considered a higher model speaker line with good components.

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post #21 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, a guy on Polk Audio forum said this about the Denon 1613 and driving the RTi8. Is this legit what he's saying?

"I know, it sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Here's the deal, if you turn the volume up too high, you will send a clipping signal to your speakers that can damage them. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

As a general rule, once you pass 50% you are getting closer and closer to overdriving your amp. You always want to have clear clean power going to your speakers, so a good safety rule is to not exceed 50%. When your amp strains, the sound becomes less clean and clear. I've powered those RTi8's with that Denon 1613 and 50% volume didn't get it to the volume that I like for movies and I had them set up in a room smaller than yours. I'd say it would be fine for someone living in an apartment that can't turn it up because of the neighbors. But for a basement, you're not going to be happy, in my opinion. If you are powering two channels for music and having to turn the volume to 50-60, then think what it will be like driving 5 channels. The WPC drops with every channel added. It's going to be harder on your AVR to drive five channels, than two. And all those channels are sharing the same power supply. The "current" is just as important as the watts. That's why all watts aren't created equal. If I remember correctly, that 1613 only weighs 20 pounds, the AVR I have now weighs 41 pounds. That extra weight is coming from the amp and power supply. And that 1613 doesn't have pre-amp outs, so you can't add an amp.

It's not that you have to upgrade your AVR to power the RTi series. It has to do with which speakers in that series you choose. The more drivers a speaker has, the harder it will be to drive. I wanted to buy the RTi10's, but I'd really need an external amp to power them properly. Even at lower volume, they sound better with a more powerful amp. People have complained that the RTi10's were too bright and didn't excel in the lower end, powering them with just an AVR, But once they added an amp, even at lower volume, the bass was hitting harder.

Believe me, I didn't want to spend a lot on a new AVR after returning that 1613. I ended up looking at the used market and purchasing one off of Craigslist. It's a gamble because you aren't getting a warranty. But people with higher end gear tend to take very good care of them.

Since you already have the Rti4's, use them for awhile with your Denon, hook up your surrounds, and get a center and see if you have to exceed 50% volume to power those. Set all your speakers to "small" in your AVR's setting and let your sub handle the lows. That will put less stress on your AVR's amp.

I think you might be better off going with the CSi3 center, instead of the CSi5 if you plan on keeping that AVR. But I'd like for someone else to give their two cents on that. I think the CSi5 will be a little harder to drive with an entry level AVR."


What you think???
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post #22 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 10:16 AM
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http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Here is the test data from HT Labs, the Denon receivers have pretty accurate power ratings, and this 1612, which is by and large the same as the 1613, still puts out over 70 watts per channel with 5 channels driven. I think if you are listening at 50-60 on the receiver, you aren't stressing it all the much. You probably don't use more than 20 watts most of the time. For reference, my 1713 which is probably pretty similar on the inside, does fine with 5 channels driven at 65-70 on the receiver. I am in a smaller room, 16x12, but I haven't experienced any clipping or distortion. Your Polks are more sensitive than my speakers, so we are probably listening at about the same SPL, just mine take more power to get there.

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post #23 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

Thanks for that information. So it's actually 71 watts with 5 channels driven at the SAME time? I've always been told it drops to like 30-40 watts if they're driven at the same time. I thought the 71 watts was only with 2 channels driven. That's where I'm confused.
They got 71watts driving all 5 channels, that is correct. Those are the test results from Sound and Vision. If they tested receiver in stereo it would be labeled as such

If they tested the receiver with only 2 channels driven its likely that the power would be higher.

Yes what the guy from the Polk forum is saying makes sense but if you are clipping the RTi4's which are rated to handle less power I think you will be fine with RTi8's and CSi5

You will be driving a total of 6x 6.5 drivers from the front stage I really doubt you will get close to clipping with the 1613
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post #24 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 04:19 PM
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If they tested the receiver with only 2 channels driven its likely that the power would be higher.

They do typically test in 2 channel as well. That's the figure I quoted above in post #9. It's over 100 watts into 2 channel.

Pretty admirable results for their entry level model that has Audyssey.

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post #25 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

They do typically test in 2 channel as well. That's the figure I quoted above in post #9. It's over 100 watts into 2 channel.

Pretty admirable results for their entry level model that has Audyssey.
Didn't read that far in the review. 104watts in 2ch mode is amazing for an entry level receiver
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post #26 of 26 Old 02-27-2014, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for the help. I think I'm going to keep my current Denon 1613 since it seems to be able to power the RTi8 and CSi5 just fine. Thanks again!
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Denon Avr 1613 Receiver , Polk Audio Rti8 High Output Floorstanding Loudspeaker Single Black , Polk Audio Csi5 High Performance Center Channel Speaker , Bic America F12 12 Inch 475 Watt Front Firing Powered Subwoofer , Polk Audio Rti4 High Performance Bookshelf On Wall Speakers Pair Black , Denon Avr 1713 Receiver , Bic Venturi Dv64 Tower Speaker 6 5 Inch , Bic Venturi Dv62clr S 6 5 Center Channel Speaker

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