Center or subwoofer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to decide on which way to go with doing an upgrade to my HT. I do not want to spend my money and regret it later. I can only do one of these so what is the best option a center channel ( does it need to match the main's BIC DV62I or can it be another brand?) or a sub.? I currently have a Yamaha YST-SW216BL. It is not bad but playing Pink Floyd's The Wall at a little over half volume on the RCVR causes the sub. to clip. I am not saying it is bad but its only a 50w sub.My rcvr puts out 85w x 7 so I think the Yamaha is just lacking in the power dept. I am not into major bass and want to stay under 250.00. I am looking at subs rated at 150-200 watts in either a 10" or 12"sub.my choices are either BIC V1020 or the V1220 or the JBL ES150P. I am aware none of these are going to play as good as a 350.00 and up sub. and I am okay with that. So what should I do the center or the sub.? If I go with either of these center or sub are there better choices or are mine okay? I did look at Pinnacle but could not find much info. Dayton Audio ( has good reviews but how will 120wrms compare to 150 or 200w sub.)Acoustic Audio ( it has good specs but considering the price how good can it be? )

Thanks for the advice.

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post #2 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 07:59 AM
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I believe this would be a matching center for you BIC's:
http://www.provantage.com/bic-america-dv-62clrs~7BICA00F.htm

Then this sub would be a good choice for your budget:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629

This sub is out of stock at the moment but it is something I am sure they will get again.

These will set you back less than $250 total.

Although if it were me I would skip a few meals eating out, brown bag lunch , carpool or something else and get this sub.

http://www.amazon.com/NXG-Technology-NX-BAS-500-500-watt-Subwoofer/dp/B008FSTU4G/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
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post #3 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 08:41 AM
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Avoid Acoustic Audio. I've heard about reliability issues with them.

Dayton Subs are one of the most popular on AVS in your budget range.

I would guess that the JBL is probably a decent performer for it's price and should be a step up over the Yamaha.

Waiting until you can spend a little more, as bladerunner suggested, is worthwhile. You can definitely step up in sub sound quality and performance by spending a little more.

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post #4 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree with what was written if I had more money there are lots of options to choose from but I do not.I went to this site 2014 Best Home Subwoofer Reviews and Comparisons and the 2 best subs were made by BIC. I am not brand specific and my money is tight. I can get a used V1020 or V1220 for 117- 147 free shipping. I am very interested in these. I like the Dayton but what would sound better the V1020 or the Dayton the Dayton with shipping 125.00 the V1020 117.00 both are very close in price one has 120wrms the other has 160wrms. The V1220 has 200wrms while the JBL ES150 has 300wrms from what I have seen one is 139.00 the other 147. both close. I understand to increase output you have to double the power considering the Yamaha has only 50wrms I will see an increase regardless. These are my choices for a sub. based on what I have to spend. Going by this what would be a good choice for a sub.?

As far as center channel dv-62clrs or the dv-5.25clrs. I know the larger the driver will match the DV-62i but I can get the next size down for 62.00. I hate being cheap because it definetly sounds like it but I can only do so much so will the smaller be okay? As of now I am trying to upgrade from the BOSE Lifestyle 25 seperates. I wish I never spent the money on Bose considering what I know now. The rcvr died and of course Bose offered a trade 700 for my unit and pay 1100 for something else.( I have had it with them ). Given time they will all be replaced but for right now the DV62I will be the front main Bic for center either the 62clrs or the 5.25 and down the road who knows but it will not be based on cheap!

So what should I do for now center or sub.?

Thanks for reading this.

Norman

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post #5 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Well so much for the V1220 it just sold so now the JBL the Dayton and the Bic are left. Still open for other brands under 150. maybe.

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post #6 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 12:00 PM
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Here is a review of the Dayton sub:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

I would definitely get the bigger center-a center is critical
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post #7 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 12:30 PM
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That TopTenReviews site with the 2014 Best Home Subwoofer Reviews and Comparisons is fairly useless. Those people don't review anything. They just collect some data. Trust instead what people tell you is generally accepted on AVS as being a good choice.
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post #8 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for the input I agree concerning the opinions here versus a top 10 review. That being said their were some good reviews concerning BIC subs on this site. I also agree that the Dayton subs seem a good solid value for the money. I am still curious if given the choice why would you get Dayton versus the other two? I know based on power the JBL has the most Bic has the second Dayton has the third. I use to sell car audio years ago and most of the time the best sounding amps also had the least amount of rated power but were also the most efficient and cleanest but you also paid more. I am not that familiar with home audio and specs. do not always tell the whole story. Just explain why Dayton would be the best choice.

Norman

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 02:05 PM
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If you want to have an in-depth discussion about the nuances of specific subwoofers, you are in the wrong forum on AVS. You should be here wink.gif And probably this particular thread smile.gif

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I was not trying to get into an in depth discussion just an opinion that's it. For what its worth based on what I have read from this forum as well as what was posted here I will more than likely get the Dayton. There are more positive reviews concerning this sub than any others in the less than 200.00 price range.

Last question I promise no more after this, if you were to buy either a center channel or a sub ( I need both but not at the same time.) what would you buy first? I can understand the importance of both in a system but which would be the first purchase?

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post #11 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 02:50 PM
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My point was that you can get better advice over there. There are 100s of sub models available, and the AVS subwoofer forum is the best place to seek that advice here, which is why there is a sticky post for the speaker forum pointing people there. There are even people that know lots about just budget subwoofers smile.gif

I would personally rather have a good 2.1 setup where the sub works properly and sounds better than the yamaha sub you have and go without a center, than a 3.1 setup with a bad sub. But that's just me smile.gif

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post #12 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post

I was not trying to get into an in depth discussion just an opinion that's it. For what its worth based on what I have read from this forum as well as what was posted here I will more than likely get the Dayton. There are more positive reviews concerning this sub than any others in the less than 200.00 price range.
Last question I promise no more after this, if you were to buy either a center channel or a sub ( I need both but not at the same time.) what would you buy first? I can understand the importance of both in a system but which would be the first purchase?

my advice, get the best sub you can afford and run a phantom center til you can get one that matches your mains
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post #13 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post

I was not trying to get into an in depth discussion just an opinion that's it. For what its worth based on what I have read from this forum as well as what was posted here I will more than likely get the Dayton. There are more positive reviews concerning this sub than any others in the less than 200.00 price range.
Last question I promise no more after this, if you were to buy either a center channel or a sub ( I need both but not at the same time.) what would you buy first? I can understand the importance of both in a system but which would be the first purchase?

I would get the center channel first. I had to make this choice as well and felt that the center channel was more important to me. Remember, pretty much all dialogue comes from the center channel so being able to understand what people are saying is pretty important. Plus the center channel is also used to help localize sounds across the front soundfield. My tiny Definitive Technology Promonitor 800's (front left and right channels) put out decent upper bass and I chose a Def Tech ProCenter 1000 for the center channel. Perfect timber matching and now dialogue is completely understandable. I tried the phantom center channel before I got the ProCenter 1000 and it left much to be desired. I plan on buying a 10" Definitive Technology ProSub1000 in the future when I have a few extra bucks to play with. In the meantime, I am enjoying my 3.0 system.

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post #14 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 09:13 PM
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I would get the center channel first. I had to make this choice as well and felt that the center channel was more important to me. Remember, pretty much all dialogue comes from the center channel so being able to understand what people are saying is pretty important. Plus the center channel is also used to help localize sounds across the front soundfield. My tiny Definitive Technology Promonitor 800's (front left and right channels) put out decent upper bass and I chose a Def Tech ProCenter 1000 for the center channel. Perfect timber matching and now dialogue is completely understandable. I tried the phantom center channel before I got the ProCenter 1000 and it left much to be desired. I plan on buying a 10" Definitive Technology ProSub1000 in the future when I have a few extra bucks to play with. In the meantime, I am enjoying my 3.0 system.

If you don't own a subwoofer, then how do you know it's the better choice to go with the center channel first? Seriously, only someone who has good experience with both 2.1 and 3.0 can provide advice on this. LOL

Bluray players can be set to downmix multichannel into 2 channel so you don't lose any dialogue. I am pretty sure that most AVRs will do that, too, if you go through the setup configuration and tell the receiver there is no center channel.

On the other hand, speakers won't produce frequencies that a sub can. That's definitely gone, no longer part of the experience at all.

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post #15 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 09:57 PM
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If you don't own a subwoofer, then how do you know it's the better choice to go with the center channel first? Seriously, only someone who has good experience with both 2.1 and 3.0 can provide advice on this. LOL

On the other hand, speakers won't produce frequencies that a sub can. That's definitely gone, no longer part of the experience at all.

The Definitive ProCinema 800, is -3 db around 124 hz > so something sure is
missing. I think that I for sure, would want some mid-bass.

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post #16 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 10:05 PM
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The Definitive ProCinema 800, is -3 db around 124 hz > so something sure is
missing. I think that I for sure, would want some mid-bass.

I don't know how old you are, Jim, but back in the audio dark ages before AVRs, I spent a lot of money on a Harman Kardon HiFi VCR not long after they came out. It made movies sound wonderful in stereo. And I could hear the dialogue fine.

And then multichannel audio came along with the center channel. It certainly improved on that experience, but people seem to have forgotten that stereo for movies can still sound very good, especially when you use good speakers. smile.gif

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post #17 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 10:15 PM
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I don't know how old you are, Jim, but back in the audio dark ages before AVRs, I spent a lot of money on a Harman Kardon HiFi VCR not long after they came out. It made movies sound wonderful in stereo. And I could hear the dialogue fine.

Do not ask smile.gif

I remember the Magnavox console days, and the stereo VCR days

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post #18 of 23 Old 03-01-2014, 10:28 PM
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Do not ask smile.gif

I remember the Magnavox console days, and the stereo VCR days

When I was in college, in 1984 I walked into the local hifi shop, bought a Hitachi CD player. Then proceeded over to the record store, not bothering that they only had three rows of CDs. LOL
I walked out of the store with Dark Side of the Moon and REM Reckoning. Seems like a long time ago smile.gif

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post #19 of 23 Old 03-02-2014, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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If we are going to go back a few years there was a time that bell bottoms and plaid were in and how about the shoes that men wore with the higher heels? I remember when my Dad had an older Sony 80 or 85 wrms rcvr hooked up to a pair of Bose 901's.I thought it sounded great.

I just received my Bic dv62si and putting it mildly they make the Bose cubes sound sick!! I am still 50/50 on the center versus sub issue, probably because I want them both now.My system as it stands is a 7.1 with the following:

Integra DTR5.5

Panasonic Blu-Ray Player

Wii

BIC-DV62i

Bose Lifestyle 25 cubes ( using 1 set as the center 2 as the rear and 2 as the rear surrounds )

Yamaha YST-SW216

I know there are some weak links in this system BOSE and Yamaha but at the least I can still listen while I replace the items.

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post #20 of 23 Old 03-02-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If you don't own a subwoofer, then how do you know it's the better choice to go with the center channel first? Seriously, only someone who has good experience with both 2.1 and 3.0 can provide advice on this. LOL

Bluray players can be set to downmix multichannel into 2 channel so you don't lose any dialogue. I am pretty sure that most AVRs will do that, too, if you go through the setup configuration and tell the receiver there is no center channel.

On the other hand, speakers won't produce frequencies that a sub can. That's definitely gone, no longer part of the experience at all.

Where did I say that I didn't own a sub? I don't currently have a sub in my living room system but I have a Definitive Technology PF15TL powered sub in my other 5.1 system in the family room, as part of a complete Definitive Technology BP2002 system (pair of BP2002 powered towers, CLR2000 center and BP2X surrounds). I am also aware that the center channel can be downmixed into the left and right channels. I tried that for a couple of months in my small living room where I had a 42" Panasonic plasma, a Pioneer VSX-521K receiver and a pair of Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800's for the main left and right channels. I found the dialogue unacceptable and difficult to understand when I was running a phantom center channel. Dialogue was especially difficult to understand when sound effects were being reproduced by the main channels at the same time as people were speaking. Once I added a Definitive Technology ProCenter 1000, it was like night and day. Explosions and other sound effects could be reproduced by the left and right channels while the dialogue was coming through loud and clear from the center channel speaker. It was a huge improvement. I am aware that I'm missing the lower octaves and will one day add a powered sub, but if given the choice I'd rather hear dialogue clearly as it's more important to me to understand what's being said than to feel explosions and other lower octave effects.

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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

When I was in college, in 1984 I walked into the local hifi shop, bought a Hitachi CD player. Then proceeded over to the record store, not bothering that they only had three rows of CDs. LOL
I walked out of the store with Dark Side of the Moon and REM Reckoning. Seems like a long time ago smile.gif

It was only a few days ago.smile.gif

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post #22 of 23 Old 03-02-2014, 11:42 AM
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Where did I say that I didn't own a sub? I don't currently have a sub in my living room system but I have a Definitive Technology PF15TL powered sub in my other 5.1 system in the family room, as part of a complete Definitive Technology BP2002 system (pair of BP2002 powered towers, CLR2000 center and BP2X surrounds). I am also aware that the center channel can be downmixed into the left and right channels. I tried that for a couple of months in my small living room where I had a 42" Panasonic plasma, a Pioneer VSX-521K receiver and a pair of Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800's for the main left and right channels. I found the dialogue unacceptable and difficult to understand when I was running a phantom center channel. Dialogue was especially difficult to understand when sound effects were being reproduced by the main channels at the same time as people were speaking. Once I added a Definitive Technology ProCenter 1000, it was like night and day. Explosions and other sound effects could be reproduced by the left and right channels while the dialogue was coming through loud and clear from the center channel speaker. It was a huge improvement. I am aware that I'm missing the lower octaves and will one day add a powered sub, but if given the choice I'd rather hear dialogue clearly as it's more important to me to understand what's being said than to feel explosions and other lower octave effects.

My bad. You didn't indicate trying the sub with your 2.0 setup in comparison to the 3.0 without a sub.

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post #23 of 23 Old 03-02-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

When I was in college, in 1984 I walked into the local hifi shop, bought a Hitachi CD player. Then proceeded over to the record store, not bothering that they only had three rows of CDs. LOL
I walked out of the store with Dark Side of the Moon and REM Reckoning. Seems like a long time ago smile.gif

You haven't heard Dark Side of the Moon until you've heard the SACD version. It's like hearing it for the first time.

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