Looking for respected brands in the low end of the "high end" tier $1000 per. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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$1000 per floor. Maybe center in the $600 - $900 range. I know the Klipsch R7 and RC-64 would be in that tier and I really do like Klipsch but I just don't have room for that large center in my entertainment system. It's pretty large though 9" x 31".

I'm not asking this because I am ready now. But at some point in the future I might want to step it up. Since I have a really great receiver and subs I am really happy with why not start doing my research on that next tier now?

Since I love my SVS sub I looked at their ultra speaker line and considered it briefly and I will keep them in mind for future models.


Considering my room is fairly small I don't need speakers that reach far, just ones that have a very full and large presence. Room is only 13' x 11.5' and open on the left side (which I feel adds to the acoustics a bit). I can only place the towers about 6.5 feet apart. I have also considered adding a front height as this might improve the front soundstage as well since I am only running 5.2 right now. I really don't think the room is long enough to add surround mids. Maybe a surround back height. Is going to that next tier better, or maybe adding a front height and surround height to my mix a better idea?

Sony KDL-70R550A
Denon x4000 (o)c (0)
Klipsch RF-62IIs
Klipsch RC-62II
Polk T15s
SVS PC12-NSD + Klipsch RW12d
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post #2 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:53 AM
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I recommend looking at Paradigm,which is what I am using.
http://www.paradigm.com/
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post #3 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 06:30 AM
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@Teremei, I thought you were getting the EMPTek Impression towers and centre to try. [Thread]

Didn't that pan out for you?
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post #4 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

@Teremei, I thought you were getting the EMPTek Impression towers and centre to try. [Thread]

Didn't that pan out for you?

Yeah I'm going to thoroughly test them against the klipsch for a few weeks. I am not buying any more expensive speakers now I just want to get an idea of what that next tier might look like. I have already noticed a great improvement in sound just by being able to fit my center higher and tilt it upward and also with the denon 4000. So it's got me thinking, what's that next upgrade sound like?

Sony KDL-70R550A
Denon x4000 (o)c (0)
Klipsch RF-62IIs
Klipsch RC-62II
Polk T15s
SVS PC12-NSD + Klipsch RW12d
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post #5 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:04 AM
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Klipsch is for newbies who haven't yet discovered that their horn tweeters are not very good-sounding and haven't had the chance to listen much better-sounding speakers from PSB, KEF, Wharfedale, B & K and others.

You need to get out more and do some listening. God gave you ears; start using them.

Also; a center speaker is only for frequencies above 100 Hz. Smaller is generally better for clear, well-articulated mid-range (which is the job of a center speaker).

Large center speakers are usually a mistake, if you like clear voice quality. One with a pair of 4" drivers and a tweeter is perfect.

Actually, with main speakers that close together, it is very questionable whether a center speaker is desirable.
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post #6 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:10 AM
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Another series of sweeping generalizations by Commysman. OP, this poster is expressing his opinion. Many posters really like the brighter sound of klipsch. And don't even get me started about the freq requirements of a center!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #7 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:13 AM
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Well, of course it's my opinion. What the ***** else would it be?

And if you read a few hundred reviews by people with extensive experience evaluating the sound of many many speakers, you will find that they agree with me by and large. I am not alone.

Most magazine reviewers won't even DO a review on Klipsch speakers, because they don't like slamming a product that everyone knows to be inferior. They prefer to concentrate on something they can say some good things about.

That's why a search will yield almost NO reviews on Klipsch speakers in mainstream publications, but lots of reviews on the others.

But the few that do reviews on them have a hard time saying anything good.

The ONE review I could find in a mainstream audio publication (Home Theater review) on a Klipsch speaker (the RF-62 ii) said "too much flab", "lacking speed and detail", and "lacked transparency". The only thing he said about the tweeters was that they were very controversial and fuel many arguments....and then he ducked the subject completely...lol. And I'm sure he was doing his best to be nice.

On the other hand, PSB, Wharfedale, and KEF consistently get VERY good reviews of most of their products.

After a while you will begin to get the picture, unless you are a little slow.

But hey; there are people who go out and buy Range Rovers for $75,000, even though every automotive magazine rates their quality and reliability as atrocious and their gas mileage as absurdly poor.

Everyone is free to be as stupid with their money as they want to be, and ignoring the facts is not a crime.



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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Another series of sweeping generalizations by Commysman. OP, this poster is expressing his opinion. Many posters really like the brighter sound of klipsch. And don't even get me started about the freq requirements of a center!
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post #8 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 08:55 AM
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Your original reply did not say "in my opinion"...in fact, you rather insultingly said klipsch was for newbies who hadnt heard psb or kef!
As to the center, I like a center channel that is clear and detailed AND can hit as low as my fronts. Plenty of content moves across the front stage in a directional manner, through the center. You don't want a center that changes that sound, IMHO!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #9 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 09:02 AM
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The reason I said that is because I have NEVER seen a case where ANYONE prefers Klipsch speakers to KEF or PSB or Wharfedale speakers in a head-to-head direct comparison.

That is why I said that only a "newbie" (someone who probably has never had that opportunity to compare), would be considering only Klipsch speakers for an upgrade.

I think 98 out of 100 people knowledgeable in the audio field will agree that there are many many better speakers for the same money compared to Klipsch.

I was trying to get the OP to open up to other possibilities that would sound better to him if he took the time to explore them.

Do you think he should listen to NOTHING but Klipsch speakers before he decides to spend his money? That seems to be your position.

As far as I am concerned EVERYTHING in this forum is someone's opinion unless it is explicitly claimed to be a FACT and documentation is given to back it up.

If you have been operating under some other assumption, I suggest that you might wish to reconsider.

In the future, you may consider everything I say to be my opinion, unless it is a direct quote from elsewhere.





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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Your original reply did not say "in my opinion"...in fact, you rather insultingly said klipsch was for newbies who hadnt heard psb or kef!
As to the center, I like a center channel that is clear and detailed AND can hit as low as my fronts. Plenty of content moves across the front stage in a directional manner, through the center. You don't want a center that changes that sound, IMHO!
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post #10 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 09:19 AM
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You do not need to be so negative in regards to an opinion about a line of speakers, I know plenty of high end reviews that really like them. Instead of saying they are only for "newbies" which is ridiculous just state why you prefer certain speakers. Everyone has different tastes I like klipsch better than many 5k speakers and I like many cheaper speakers better than klipsch. Don't be condescending towards what people like and get a long with people who are just asking questions your life and everyone else's will be better. There is a reason there are 1000's of different types of speakers everyone is different.
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post #11 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 09:24 AM
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I have read hundreds of "high-end reviews" over the years and have never seen any that praise any Klipsch speakers except some of their very expensive "legacy" models such as the Heresy, La Scala, and Klipschorn from the 1950s, which are WAY out of the price range being discussed here.

Since you "know" of "plenty" of high-end reviews of affordable Klipsch speakers, please cite the source and place and date of publication with us, so we can share.

I doubt that any favorable reviews of that type exist.


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Originally Posted by zahamm2 View Post

You do not need to be so negative in regards to an opinion about a line of speakers, I know plenty of high end reviews that really like them. Instead of saying they are only for "newbies" which is ridiculous just state why you prefer certain speakers. Everyone has different tastes I like klipsch better than many 5k speakers and I like many cheaper speakers better than klipsch. Don't be condescending towards what people like and get a long with people who are just asking questions your life and everyone else's will be better. There is a reason there are 1000's of different types of speakers everyone is different.
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post #12 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 09:32 AM
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The point of what i said went way over your head but judging by your profile your age and information gave me an idea its too late to accept anything different than what your opinion is. That last statement I made is ridiculous and likely wrong but stated it to show how ridiculous blanket statements sound about a persons age or a type of speaker "klipsch". Sound is subjective and everyone likes different sounds. A simple google search will give you plenty of reviews from respected magazines as well as known speaker reviewers who have given the klipsch reference line a listen.

Back to the OPs question the brands listed so far are good speakers to start looking at. I have tested Energy Klipsch and ARX so far and liked all 3 for different reasons of course they all had minor things I didn't like as well. Difficult to find the perfect speaker maybe even impossible but thats what makes this enjoyable as long as you don't run into people saying what you like is wrong.
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post #13 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 09:43 AM
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I have been searching for the perfect speaker for 50 years.

My first serious speaker was actually a Klipschorn, which I built from a Klipsch kit in the late 1950s. It took 5 bottles of glue to build it...lol. biggrin.gif

It was huge and painted flat black and ugly as hell, but it sounded pretty damn good!

I DJ'd with it at a high school canteen dance using a homemade 40 watt tube amplifier, and the 500 or so people there experienced some serious sound levels. Amazing!

The best thing I have found so far, and it DOES come very close to perfect sound quality, is the Vandersteen Treo speakers.

You might want to look at the recent Stereophile article on those speakers for some additional impressions and test results.

The article was written by John Atkinson. I will guarantee that he knows 10 times as much about speakers as either one of us, so I consider his opinions to be valuable.

But whatever you do, don't listen to them unless you are prepared to fall in love.

I don't tell ANYONE what to think. I just suggest that thinking, and a little research, and as much listening as possible, is a good thing.

On the other hand, when someone makes statements that seem to indicate a lack of knowledge about what may be available at a certain price level, I think it is useful to try to point that out. If they find that insulting, that is not my intention.

I see nothing wrong with suggesting that a person take steps to get the most satisfying thing, to them, for their dollar. The more you know, the better you can decide.


P.S.- I used to have a pair of PSB Image T6 speakers. Stereophile and The Absolute sound both picked them as best in their price class and featured them in several "recommended system" articles.They are hard to beat IMO in the $1000-1600 or so price class; worth a listen, perhaps?


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Originally Posted by zahamm2 View Post

The point of what i said went way over your head but judging by your profile your age and information gave me an idea its too late to accept anything different than what your opinion is. Sound is subjective and everyone likes different sounds. A simple google search will give you plenty of reviews from respected magazines as well as known speaker reviewers who have given the klipsch reference line a listen.

Back to the OPs question the brands listed so far are good speakers to start looking at. I have tested Energy Klipsch and ARX so far and liked all 3 for different reasons of course they all had minor things I didn't like as well. Difficult to find the perfect speaker maybe even impossible but thats what makes this enjoyable as long as you don't run into people saying what you like is wrong.
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post #14 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 10:53 AM
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NHT Classic 4's and 3c are right at your budget. Very well reviewed and NHT speakers are generally very good values.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #15 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I have been searching for the perfect speaker for 50 years.

My first serious speaker was actually a Klipschorn, which I built from a Klipsch kit in the late 1950s. biggrin.gif

It was huge and painted flat black and ugly as hell, but it sounded pretty damn good!

The best thing I have found so far, and it DOES come very close to perfect sound quality, is the Vandersteen Treo speakers.

You might want to look at the recent Stereophile article on those speakers for some additional impressions and test results.

The article was written by John Atkinson. I will will guarantee that he knows 10 times as much about speakers as either one of us, so I consider his opinions to be valuable.

But whatever you do, don't listen to them unless you are prepared to fall in love.

I don't tell ANYONE what to think. I just suggest that thinking, and a little research, and as much listening as possible, is a good thing.

On the other hand, when someone makes statements that seem to indicate a lack of knowledge about what may be available at a certain price level, I think it is useful to try to point that out.

I see nothing wrong with suggesting that a person take steps to get the most satisfying thing, to them, for their dollar.
Thanks for sharing your OPINIONS about speakers. You're entitled to them and I am not going to discuss opinions except to say that I haven't read an issue of Stereophile in 20 years, ever since they started accepting advertising.

However, I do take significant issue with your claim that a CC should be a small, frequency bandwidth limited speaker.
Quote:
"Also; a center speaker is only for frequencies above 100 Hz. Smaller is generally better for clear, well-articulated mid-range (which is the job of a center speaker).

That is just wrong. Your belief that a small CC is "best" is a hold-over from the Dolby Pro Logic days where the center channel information was matrixed from the L/R's and was bandwidth limited. In those days, a small bandwidth limited speaker was all that was required. However, guess what... we've moved beyond that to the Hi-Rez codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA. These codecs make full use of the CC as an "equal" channel to the L & R's, and it is specified as a "full range" channel. And the next generation of codecs, Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D will also benefit from a robust CC as well as robust surrounds, as many as 64 of them.

The ideal CC for a contemporary surround sound system is identical to the L & R speakers. It is vertically oriented and placed at the same height as the L/R's. Generally, this requires the use of an acoustically transparent screen with a projector. This arrangement provides the best opportunity for a "timbre-match" between the front 3 speakers. This is important so sounds that "pan" across the front sound stage remain consistent through the pan. The CC is not just for midrange and dialogue. It participates in the entire front soundstage. As such, making it identical to the L/R's is ideal.

Horizontal CC's are a compromised design that are sold for practical purposes for people who can't place a CC properly. They generally exhibit lobing, comb filtering and poor off-axis response. Nonetheless, it is a bad idea to limit the CC to 100 Hz. If you're going to use Bass Managment to re-direct the low bass to the sub, you want to limit the crossovers to 80 Hz to eliminate subwoofer localization. To crossover at 80 Hz, it is a good idea to use a speaker that can get BELOW 80 Hz. 60 Hz or even 40 Hz is much better than 100 Hz.

Bottom line, your insistence that the CC should be a small, bandwidth limited speaker is archaic and completely outdated.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #16 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Klipsch is for newbies who haven't yet discovered that their horn tweeters are not very good-sounding and haven't had the chance to listen much better-sounding speakers from PSB, KEF, Wharfedale, B & K and others.

You need to get out more and do some listening. God gave you ears; start using them.

Also; a center speaker is only for frequencies above 100 Hz. Smaller is generally better for clear, well-articulated mid-range (which is the job of a center speaker).

Large center speakers are usually a mistake, if you like clear voice quality. One with a pair of 4" drivers and a tweeter is perfect.

Actually, with main speakers that close together, it is very questionable whether a center speaker is desirable.
Troll
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post #17 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 11:13 AM
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I'd include Ascend Acoustic's offerings and personally would consider the Sierra-1 or Sierra-2 rather than the Sierra towers in a small room since you already have subs.
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post #18 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I'd include Ascend Acoustic's offerings and personally would consider the Sierra-1 or Sierra-2 rather than the Sierra towers in a small room since you already have subs.

+1

The KEF LS-50 or R300 might also be worth considering.
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post #19 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Klipsch is for newbies who haven't yet discovered that their horn tweeters are not very good-sounding and haven't had the chance to listen much better-sounding speakers from PSB, KEF, Wharfedale, B & K and others.

Nonsense! There are plenty of people on this forum who have Klipsch Ref speakers and prefer them to other brands they have demoed. I'm not one of those who prefer the Klipsch Ref series, but I respect the opinions of those who do. It's a perfectly reasonable choice.

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post #20 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Klipsch is for newbies who haven't yet discovered that their horn tweeters are not very good-sounding and haven't had the chance to listen much better-sounding speakers from PSB, KEF, Wharfedale, B & K and others.

You need to get out more and do some listening. God gave you ears; start using them.

Also; a center speaker is only for frequencies above 100 Hz. Smaller is generally better for clear, well-articulated mid-range (which is the job of a center speaker).

Large center speakers are usually a mistake, if you like clear voice quality. One with a pair of 4" drivers and a tweeter is perfect.

Actually, with main speakers that close together, it is very questionable whether a center speaker is desirable.

Let me translate this goobly gook for those that have yet learned to decipher this crap.

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. Blah, blah blah, blaaaaahhhhh, blaaaaaaah, blah, blah blah.

Oh, and I read automotive magazines and motorcycle magazines so that makes me a professional racer or at least as good as one.

What a tool. rolleyes.gif

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post #21 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. Blah, blah blah, blaaaaahhhhh, blaaaaaaah, blah, blah blah.

Thank you for that fine summary. Unfortunately, the forums rules don't allow me to summarize my true feelings about his posts. LOL

Anyway, back to topic for Teremei. There are many fine speakers in your budget range. Do you have any hifi shops in your area? If so, you should go listen.

I think you should evaluate whether or not you can adjust your setup to accommodate a larger center channel. Bigger drivers do make a difference smile.gif

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post #22 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 04:23 PM
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Have you considered Focal? I have the 726v fronts and 700v center and I love them. These are an upgrade from mine:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-139685-focal-chorus-836v-tower-speakers-pr.aspx

http://www.spearitsound.com/Centers_and_LCRs-Focal_Chorus_CC800.html

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post #23 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 04:40 PM
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Are you not satisfied with the RC-62 II? For the room that size I would expect it to be enough. Where do you feel that it's lacking?
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post #24 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:04 PM
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Just my opinion, but either ascend acoustic or focal would be as good and maybe cheaper than many of the speaker in this thread.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #25 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highd3f View Post

Are you not satisfied with the RC-62 II? For the room that size I would expect it to be enough. Where do you feel that it's lacking?

I'm pretty satisfied. I guess the only thing lacking is when I'm listening to the opening of star wars I wish it had more presence. Well I do have some empteks coming and I will get to extensively test them against the klipsch. I hate that I started a childish argument about speakers. I want to thank the people that gave me advice.

As far as centers, I got a new stand specifically large enough to fit the emp tek center. So I guess I am leaning that, but I will have to hear them.

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post #26 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:21 PM
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I think you will like the EMPtek. I own those and they have excellent clarity and really good mid bass!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #27 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:22 PM
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That will be a good comparison smile.gif

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post #28 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:46 PM
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Teremei its very possible that you have the same sickness all of us have. Building the system is half the fun and its hard to stop when you know you can improve and have better. You have a very nice set up but keep in mind the price point of it. You might be able to find a little better sound for the same price or maybe you can't. But if you want a big step forward then you probably will have to go up in your budget. You get what you pay for is sometimes true. I had a very similar set up (82 in place of the 62s) and it was really nice but you can do better with more money for sure. what you get as you go up is a bigger more refined effortless sound. But i think this is more the sickness then the need for your small room.

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
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post #29 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

Teremei its very possible that you have the same sickness all of us have. Building the system is half the fun and its hard to stop when you know you can improve and have better. You have a very nice set up but keep in mind the price point of it. You might be able to find a little better sound for the same price or maybe you can't. But if you want a big step forward then you probably will have to go up in your budget. You get what you pay for is sometimes true. I had a very similar set up (82 in place of the 62s) and it was really nice but you can do better with more money for sure. what you get as you go up is a bigger more refined effortless sound. But i think this is more the sickness then the need for your small room.

Ha, I'll remember that. It is a sickness indeed.

You know when I first got the denon I remember being awed by a female voice in tron that I could not locate behind me. But now that my fronts are 1 foot further apart the voice is more locatable. And now I wonder if I need to move the fronts closer together but my stand is too wide for that.

Sony KDL-70R550A
Denon x4000 (o)c (0)
Klipsch RF-62IIs
Klipsch RC-62II
Polk T15s
SVS PC12-NSD + Klipsch RW12d
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post #30 of 36 Old 03-02-2014, 05:51 PM
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you have a pic of the new stand set up we can see?

Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-904 L/C/R, Pro Cinema KPT-1201-T2 for sides and RB-61 II for backs.
SVS PB13-Ultra, PB12-Plus x2, and Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ
SC-55 elite and B&K 200.7 S2
JVC RS-45 Projector, and Seymour CS 125” 2.35 screen
Oppo BDP-103 9 ATS Acoustic panels
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