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post #61 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Manual EQing is always better than Audyssey. I think the JBL subs would be good. No doubt some Hsu or SVS subs wouldn't have the headroom of the JBL subs, but you could always add more later for increased headroom, but adding more JBL subs later will not make them play deeper. The VTF15h and PC12 Plus subs can hit 115 dB RMS at 2 m in a ground plane setting, so two in a room like that should be able to come near that level at his listening position. Ultimately though I would want more subwoofage for a JBL pro system like that. Four should do the trick, at least for touching THX reference levels and can be EQ'd relatively easy with something like the MiniDSP 2X4 and Umik mic.


I'm thinking that using the JBL subs may put me in over my head with regards to manual EQing them.
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post #62 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 08:14 PM
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Since the 4641 is a 8 ohm speaker, you could wire that in parallel just fine, like so:

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post #63 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

I'm thinking that using the JBL subs may put me in over my head with regards to manual EQing them.

The EQing wouldn't be that difficult, but they would need more EQing than normal though, since the response is likely to be quite peakish- remember, those are pro subs and are expecting to be professionally calibrated when installed. What would bother me more is their lack of deep bass. Movies nowadays have bass going all way way down to the low teens in frequency, so going with a sub like that means you miss out on an entire octave of bass. This is a good thing for professional cinemas, since deep bass is what passes through walls easiest, and the less deep bass means less sound bleeding in from other auditoriums. I would go for subs that have deep bass like the ones I mentioned, and I would open to the option of adding more later if you find they didn't have enough dynamic range for your tastes. Like Trans said, they won't have the dynamic range of the JBL pro subs, but they will have deep bass output and a flat frequency response right out of the box.
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post #64 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 08:26 PM
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If you are going for more than one passive sub, ie: two passive subs , you would be way way better off buying a Behringer iNuke3000dsp or better yet, am iNuke6000dsp. I believe that you can get the iNuke3000dsp for around $240 to $260 from Sweetwater, or some other various on-line retailer. This amp has built in EQ and DSP capability, and would work a crap ton better than connecting two subs to a mono-amp such as the Dayton SPA-1000 amp, which is not really the correct tool for the job.
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post #65 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The EQing wouldn't be that difficult, but they would need more EQing than normal though, since the response is likely to be quite peakish- remember, those are pro subs and are expecting to be professionally calibrated when installed. What would bother me more is their lack of deep bass. Movies nowadays have bass going all way way down to the low teens in frequency, so going with a sub like that means you miss out on an entire octave of bass. This is a good thing for professional cinemas, since deep bass is what passes through walls easiest, and the less deep bass means less sound bleeding in from other auditoriums. I would go for subs that have deep bass like the ones I mentioned, and I would open to the option of adding more later if you find they didn't have enough dynamic range for your tastes. Like Trans said, they won't have the dynamic range of the JBL pro subs, but they will have deep bass output and a flat frequency response right out of the box.

I see what your saying. i don't want to loss out on those lows. The movie Kung Fu Panda comes to mind

The SVS are out of my price range but the HSU with the 3253 and the 8320 would still bring me in under my budget.
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post #66 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Manual EQing is always better than Audyssey.
Absolute Bullsnot!

You are mistaking Audyssey for a simple parametric EQ that only corrects in the frequency domain. Audyssey is primarily a time domain Room Correction system. What simple parametric "manual EQ" can provide time domain based room correction? rolleyes.gif

Parametric EQ's use Infinite Response Filters, (IIR's.) These are single filters that have the same response over infinite time. IOW, they cut or boost a specific frequency, and that boost or cut lasts forever in the signal, until the signal dies away.

Audyssey uses Finite Impulse Response, (FIR), filters, and it uses thousands of them. FIR filters only act on the response for a very short (finite), period, of time. However, by staging multiple FIR filters in time, Audyssey can improve the time domain response up to about 120 ms. Audyssey can stage literally thousands of filter taps per channel to not only flatten the frequency response, but also correct time domain response of ringing, overhang, and resonation.

Here is an example of this correction:

Audyssey Off


Audyssey On

(If you don't know how to read these graphs, let me know and I'll explain them to you.)

You can see that the prolonged resonances at 27 Hz and 125 Hz have been virtually eliminated by Audyssey. Also, note the FR improvements in the FR graphs in the upper right corner of these images.

Resonances, ringing and overhang cause "smearing" of bass notes, where one note carries over and drowns out the next, and subsequent notes. The result is muddy and inarticulate bass. With untreated resonances, all bass notes sound the same tone, and they all sound boomy. Audyssey's time and frequency domain correction improves the sound quality so significantly by eliminating the resonances, ringing and overhang. This removes that "smearing" of the sound of each note. Without the resonance, ringing and overhang, every note can be easily articulated as it's own note.

Bottom line, a blanket statement that "Manual EQing is always better than Audyssey." is just plain wrong. There may be some manual EQ curves that users might "prefer" to Audyssey's time and frequency domain correction, but I am certain that is not an absolute proposition.

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post #67 of 89 Old 03-15-2014, 10:00 PM
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Lol, whoa, easy there cowboy! I was referring to the frequency domain. I knew Audyssey compensated for time domain and also puts the sub in phase with the speakers, but I didn't know it could fix the time domain so dramatically. It seems I should investigate Audyssey more. I know that it does not work miracles in the frequency, but it does help. Let me ask you, if you weren't satisfied with Audyssey's frequency response correction, but wanted to keep its time correction, and you wanted more equalization for the FR, would it be best to do that equalization before or after Audyssey? I'm guessing before.
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post #68 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I knew Audyssey compensated for time domain and also puts the sub in phase with the speakers, but I didn't know it could fix the time domain so dramatically.


Don't be so easily fooled. A bad lumpy frequency response is what is generating the smeared time response. Fix the frequency response and you also improve the time response. If you look at his first graph you may notice how the big peaks in the frequency response would line up on the hot areas of the time response.

Or to help see this better I once lined up the frequency response with the ringing response measurement of the same room...



If you can improve your frequency response with manual PEQ then you are no longer going to have certain frequencies that are way too hot and over loading your room with excess energy that is causing the longer decay times and smearing.
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post #69 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, whoa, easy there cowboy! I was referring to the frequency domain.
Sorry, it was your use of the word "always" that generated the response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I knew Audyssey compensated for time domain and also puts the sub in phase with the speakers, but I didn't know it could fix the time domain so dramatically. It seems I should investigate Audyssey more. I know that it does not work miracles in the frequency, but it does help. Let me ask you, if you weren't satisfied with Audyssey's frequency response correction, but wanted to keep its time correction, and you wanted more equalization for the FR, would it be best to do that equalization before or after Audyssey? I'm guessing before.
I have done it both ways. In one system, I used an SMS-1 to further flatten the FR after Audyssey. This was a system that had multiple serious peaks pre-Audyssey that required more correction than Audyssey was capable of. In another system, I used an SMS-1 pre- Audyssey to knock down a single huge 25+ dB peak. Knocking down that peak allowed Audyssey to provide more than adequate compensation across the rest of the bandwidth.

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post #70 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

I'm thinking that using the JBL subs may put me in over my head with regards to manual EQing them.

I would just let Audyssey EQ the sub.

This is what I do. Run Audyssey. Then set to either Audyssey, Audyssey Flat, Audyssey Bypass LR. Then turn Dynamic EQ on, but turn Dynamic Volume off.

I don't manually EQ anything. biggrin.gif

Just let Audyssey EQ for you.

The one thing I do manually is set all my speakers to 80dB. This is the speaker trim level or speaker channel level. Lowering the trim levels decreases the effects of Audyssey DEQ, increasing the trim levels increases the effects of DEQ. It's a personal preference thing. Some people choose to leave it as is, some "tweak" the trim levels like me. biggrin.gif

Adjust, tweak, and find out what is best for you. But this is as much "manual" as I will do. All you need is a digital SPL meter like the $60 Galaxy SPL meter.
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post #71 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Don't be so easily fooled. A bad lumpy frequency response is what is generating the smeared time response. Fix the frequency response and you also improve the time response. If you look at his first graph you may notice how the big peaks in the frequency response would line up on the hot areas of the time response.

If you can improve your frequency response with manual PEQ then you are no longer going to have certain frequencies that are way too hot and over loading your room with excess energy that is causing the longer decay times and smearing.

Yes, the 2 are inter-related. The peaks and nulls are caused by secondary waves being reflected off the room boundaries and superimposing themselves on the original sound waves. They do this either "constructively", (peaks) or "destructively", (nulls). This phenomenon occurs in the time domain and it affects the frequency domain. So, it is actually the other way around from what you said... it's the time domain that "causes" the lumpy frequency response.

As you said, reducing the levels of the peaks with parametric EQ reduces the level of the reflections commensurately, and reduces the length of time the reflections cause problems. However, time domain correction, (i.e., stacking multiple FIR filters in time), goes beyond that by actually reducing the level of the signal in the time domain.

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post #72 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


The one thing I do manually is set all my speakers to 80dB. This is the speaker trim level or speaker channel level. Lowering the trim levels decreases the effects of Audyssey DEQ, increasing the trim levels increases the effects of DEQ. It's a personal preference thing. Some people choose to leave it as is, some "tweak" the trim levels like me. biggrin.gif
Why don't you just use the Reference Level Offset? Adjusting the levels post-Audyssey is not recommended: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_e3

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post #73 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 08:24 AM
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So back to the OP's original request....
Does the collective feel that the version of Audyssey -MultEQ XT- in his MARANTZ SR5800 will get the job done with the JBL system I recommended?
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post #74 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

So back to the OP's original request....
Does the collective feel that the version of Audyssey -MultEQ XT- in his MARANTZ SR5800 will get the job done with the JBL system I recommended?


All that talk is over my head. LOL

I just want to take the time to say thank you to everyone for all your input.

Here's where I think I;m at. The question is the Subs with the JBLs

3 JBL 3252 for front stage

4 JBL 8320 for the surrounds

Subs. These are the choices suggested. Please correct me if I'm worry with anything.

1) 2 JBL 4641 w/ pre-amp 3 have been recommended: Behringer iNuke3000dsp, Crown XLS-1000 and the Dayton SA1000
Will the Audyssey -MultEQ XT do the job EQing them.
Pros: good Dynamic range
Cons: don't go low enough 22 hz

2) 2 HSU VTF-15H
Pros: Good lows as per website 16 hz at 106db duel ports / 16hz at 109db single port
Cons: poor Dynamic range for my room
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post #75 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


The one thing I do manually is set all my speakers to 80dB. This is the speaker trim level or speaker channel level. Lowering the trim levels decreases the effects of Audyssey DEQ, increasing the trim levels increases the effects of DEQ. It's a personal preference thing. Some people choose to leave it as is, some "tweak" the trim levels like me. biggrin.gif
Why don't you just use the Reference Level Offset? Adjusting the levels post-Audyssey is not recommended: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#user_e3

Adjusting the trim levels to suit our preference on DEQ effect is no big deal. This means changing all the trims by the same amount. For example, increasing all trims by 3dB or 5dB. This will not affect Audyssey, but will change the amount of DEQ being applied.
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post #76 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

So back to the OP's original request....
Does the collective feel that the version of Audyssey -MultEQ XT- in his MARANTZ SR5800 will get the job done with the JBL system I recommended?

I think so. XT32 should be even better, but XT was already great IMO.
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post #77 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

All that talk is over my head. LOL

I just want to take the time to say thank you to everyone for all your input.

Here's where I think I;m at. The question is the Subs with the JBLs

3 JBL 3252 for front stage

4 JBL 8320 for the surrounds

Those are commercial speakers and not very aesthetic for a residential HT. If you don't care, or you plan to place them behind a screen wall, they should be fine. However, they're 4 Ohm speakers and the Marantz is only rated to 6 Ohms. They're very high sensitivity speakers, so you may not have a problem, but if you want their full potential, I suggest you look at stronger amplification, and something rated to drive 4 Ohm speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

Subs. These are the choices suggested. Please correct me if I'm worry with anything.

1) 2 JBL 4641 w/ pre-amp 3 have been recommended: Behringer iNuke3000dsp, Crown XLS-1000 and the Dayton SA1000
Will the Audyssey -MultEQ XT do the job EQing them.
Pros: good Dynamic range
Cons: don't go low enough 22 hz

2) 2 HSU VTF-15H
Pros: Good lows as per website 16 hz at 106db duel ports / 16hz at 109db single port
Cons: poor Dynamic range for my room

Dual VTF-15H ought to do a respectable job in your room. They'll dig deeper than the JBL pro subs.

Craig

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post #78 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Those are commercial speakers and not very aesthetic for a residential HT. If you don't care, or you plan to place them behind a screen wall, they should be fine. However, they're 4 Ohm speakers and the Marantz is only rated to 6 Ohms. They're very high sensitivity speakers, so you may not have a problem, but if you want their full potential, I suggest you look at stronger amplification, and something rated to drive 4 Ohm speakers.

Craig

The speakers will be behind a screen so I'm not worried how they look.

i did inquire about the ohms in a previous post. Trans believes it won't be a problem. Below is trans reply.

My question,
Will the Marantz 5008 be able to run these. I never really understood ohms but I see that the 3253s are 4 ohms and the 8320s are 8 ohms. will there be any issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

No not at all the Marantz will be loafing for a couple reasons.

Very high sensitivity
The main speakers-LCR-have a very high sensitivity rating @ 103db.
If you compare this to a consumer speaker say something like the Klipsch KL-650 which is rated at 97db-BTW very high for a consumer speaker-you have a 6db difference.
So for the Klipsch speakers to play at the same level as the JBL you would you would need four times the power!

Cross-out low frequencies/bass from the main speakers
You will likely cross-over all the speakers-with the exception of the subwoofer-at 80hz.
This will be a much easier load on the amplifier as low frequency is what sucks up power and puts substantially demands on the amplifier.
Note: You'll have to keep an eye on Audyssey as it may set your mains to full range given their frequency response capabilities.

Separate amp for the heavy lifting of bass.
Similar to above -By having a separate dedicated high power amp drive the subwoofers you dramatically reduce the strain on the Marantz.
]
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post #79 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Adjusting the trim levels to suit our preference on DEQ effects is no big deal.

Chris Kyriakakis has answered this
question.
Adjusting all the trims by the same amount doesn't affect the relative calibration, and that is fine, (although it's still easier to just use the Reference Level Offset to do the same thing and it doesn't mess with the RL MVC setting.)

However, if you're using an SPL meter and the internal test tones to set the levels to 80 dB, that is a different issue. The post I linked previously explains it.

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post #80 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

The speakers will be behind a screen so I'm not worried how they look.

i did inquire about the ohms in a previous post. Trans believes it won't be a problem. Below is trans reply.

My question,
Will the Marantz 5008 be able to run these. I never really understood ohms but I see that the 3253s are 4 ohms and the 8320s are 8 ohms. will there be any issue?
]
Those JBL's have a power handling rating of 400 watts RMS, 1,600 watts peak. You'll be driving them with amps that put out 100 watts @ 8 Ohms and 140 watts @ 6 Ohms. You won't come close to using their full potential with the amps in the Marantz receiver.

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post #81 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 05:32 PM
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You won't come close to using their full potential with the amps in the Marantz receiver.

Lol, if he ever came close to using those speakers to their full potential in that room with his seating arrangement, he would suffer permanent hearing damage. In a sense, he is still getting a lot of benefit from using those speakers, even without heavy-duty amplification, because the sound will be so clean and distortion free- as long as the amplifier isn't pushed into clipping. Those speakers would be just gliding along at a point where other speakers would be coughing up a lung. The Marantz would probably have more amplification than he would ever use. And if he wanted more, it has pre-outs, so it would be easy to hook up.
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post #82 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asystole13 View Post

All that talk is over my head. LOL

I just want to take the time to say thank you to everyone for all your input.

Here's where I think I;m at. The question is the Subs with the JBLs

3 JBL 3252 for front stage

4 JBL 8320 for the surrounds

Subs. These are the choices suggested. Please correct me if I'm worry with anything.

1) 2 JBL 4641 w/ pre-amp 3 have been recommended: Behringer iNuke3000dsp, Crown XLS-1000 and the Dayton SA1000
Will the Audyssey -MultEQ XT do the job EQing them.
Pros: good Dynamic range
Cons: don't go low enough 22 hz

2) 2 HSU VTF-15H
Pros: Good lows as per website 16 hz at 106db duel ports / 16hz at 109db single port
Cons: poor Dynamic range for my room

For the JBL subs, you will want to use the Behringer DSP. You will need the signal processing to shape the peak. I wouldn't want to rest on Audyssey alone to take care of that. The JBL subs without any shaping probably has a FR that looks something like this:



In my opinion, that kind of FR, combined with room acoustics, stands a good chance of being beyond well Audyssey's help. You will need an SPL meter or calibration mic to measure and fix the FR.

Also, to reiterate what I said earlier, you can always beef up dynamics by adding more of the same subs, but adding more of the same subs doesn't really fix extension. If you find two VTF15s don't get loud enough for you, you can always just add more, but if JBL 4641s don't dig deep enough for you, you have to replace them.

In either case, I would get a SPL meter to find the best sub placement. Bass performance is tremendously affected by subwoofer placement. You will want to take some time to find the optimal placement for the subs. First you will want to find what placement gets the flattest response at your listening position from a single sub, then you will want to find the placement that best compliments the frequency response of the first sub by shoring up the response dips and nulls. If you have freedom of placement, don't be afraid to try near-field placement, that is, placing the subs very close to the listening position, like and endtable placement or directly behind the seats.
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post #83 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I think my best bet is the 2 HSUs. I'll play with placement and like you said shadeJ, I can always add another one down the road if need be.

Can't wait to get this system together.

Thank you everyone for all your input. What a big help you guys have been.
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post #84 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 08:30 PM
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That system is looking good. If you have any questions, this is a great place to ask them. Hsu has very good customer service, so if you have any sub questions, they would be very helpful as well. Let us know how it sounds when you get it going. Good luck!
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post #85 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I will differently let you guys know how I make out.

Thank you all your time ShardyJ
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post #86 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Adjusting all the trims by the same amount doesn't affect the relative calibration, and that is fine, (although it's still easier to just use the Reference Level Offset to do the same thing and it doesn't mess with the RL MVC setting.)

However, if you're using an SPL meter and the internal test tones to set the levels to 80 dB, that is a different issue. The post I linked previously explains it.

Craig

I should have said "approximately 80dB" after I adjust all the trim levels by the same amount - basically increasing all trims by 5dB.
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post #87 of 89 Old 03-16-2014, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, it will boost the signal by 6 dB, but not the power! It won't make any difference to the end use though. The volume will mostly be controlled by the AVR, not the speakers.
Whoops, you are right. Thanks for the correction.
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post #88 of 89 Old 04-20-2014, 07:04 AM
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curious how this went...
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post #89 of 89 Old 04-20-2014, 07:42 AM
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curious how this went...

+1
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