Help with Speaker Selection for 7.1 Setup - Sonance vs. RBH Sound - AVS Forum
Speakers > Help with Speaker Selection for 7.1 Setup - Sonance vs. RBH Sound
esabet's Avatar esabet 06:25 PM 03-28-2014
Hi;

I am trying to decide on speaker selection for a 7.1 setup. Here is some details about the rooms setup:

The room is not intended to be used solely as a "Home Theater". The room is also the "family room" / "den".

The room size is 20' x 20' with 11' high ceiling. All walls are wood paneled to the celling but majority of the right and the left side walls is compromised of large French doors, so not much paneling there. But at the front and back wall I will have built-in custom cabinetries that go to the ceiling.

I intend to install the speakers inside the cabinets - one either side of the TV (75" LED) - the Left and Right Channels, one above the TV - the Center Channel, two inside the rear cabinets - the Left and Right Back Surround Channels, and because of lack of space on the side walls, two in-celling speakers for the Left and Right Surround speakers.

One option I had come across is the following selections:

  1. Sonance Cinema LCR2 for the Left, Center and Right Channel
  2. Sonance Cinema SUR2 for the Back Left and Right Surrounds
  3. Sonance Visual Performance VP86R SST/SUR Speakers for the Left and Right Surrounds (these are in-ceiling speakers)

I was pretty much sold on these speakers since an A/V Installer was talking so highly of them but then a friend said that I should also look into the RBH Sound in-wall speakers, more specifically the Signature In-Wall Series such as the SI-6100 and SI-744 and etc..

I have done some googling and haven't been able to find much reviews on either of these speakers. Can anyone tell me their opinion about either one of these speaker selections?

esabet's Avatar esabet 07:15 AM 03-29-2014
Anyone?
commsysman's Avatar commsysman 08:30 AM 03-29-2014
When an installer recommends some off-brand speakers like those, you can bet that he is pocketing a lot of money for some so-so speakers he can buy cheap. They are 3rd-rate speakers at Rolls-Royce prices. You are a sucker if you go for them.

Brands like Sonance have a price structure that allows an installer to make a HUGE profit selling a product that is not the best quality. They don't compete at all in the open market, for the simple reason that the price is way out of line and the quality is not the best.

You NEVER want to buy speakers from an installer; his recommendation is based mainly on his profit, not the speaker quality.

You should do some online research and read some independent reviews to select speakers, and go with mainstream companies that have been designing quality speakers for 20 or 40 years.

If you want an installer, get an independent installer that does not insist on pushing his own high-profit "house brand". Just buy your own speakers and pay a fair price for labor only. Most hi-fi dealers that sell quality speakers can either come out and install, for a fee, or recommend an independent guy who will do the work.

My advice would be to go with PSB speakers, which is well-known as one of the best companies in the business and has excellent conventional as well as in-wall/ceiling speakers. You can find local dealers by using the locator on the PSB website.

The prices of those Sonance speakers are about 2 to 3 times higher than they should be, which indicates how much the installer will profit from them. They are way way overpriced.

A Pair of PSB Image T6 speakers for your main speakers is one of the best available, and run $1300. They have been rated best in their price class by Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.

The PSB Image B5 speakers are around $500, and the Image C4 center is around $400. Those are all excellent speakers (much better than Sonance).

For in-wall or in-ceiing, the PSB CW-88R are around $300 each, and are very good.

Stick with PSB or Focal or KEF, and you will get much better sound quality, and probably pay a MUCH lower price.
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar Bill Fitzmaurice 02:12 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esabet View Post


I have done some googling and haven't been able to find much reviews on either of these speakers.
That fact alone is reason enough to avoid them. There are no 'hidden jewels' in audio. When something's good the word spreads fast.
esabet's Avatar esabet 03:05 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

When an installer recommends some off-brand speakers like those, you can bet that he is pocketing a lot of money for some so-so speakers he can buy cheap. They are 3rd-rate speakers at Rolls-Royce prices. You are a sucker if you go for them.

Brands like Sonance have a price structure that allows an installer to make a HUGE profit selling a product that is not the best quality. They don't compete at all in the open market, for the simple reason that the price is way out of line and the quality is not the best.

You NEVER want to buy speakers from an installer; his recommendation is based mainly on his profit, not the speaker quality.

You should do some online research and read some independent reviews to select speakers, and go with mainstream companies that have been designing quality speakers for 20 or 40 years.

If you want an installer, get an independent installer that does not insist on pushing his own high-profit "house brand". Just buy your own speakers and pay a fair price for labor only. Most hi-fi dealers that sell quality speakers can either come out and install, for a fee, or recommend an independent guy who will do the work.

My advice would be to go with PSB speakers, which is well-known as one of the best companies in the business and has excellent conventional as well as in-wall/ceiling speakers. You can find local dealers by using the locator on the PSB website.

The prices of those Sonance speakers are about 2 to 3 times higher than they should be, which indicates how much the installer will profit from them. They are way way overpriced.

A Pair of PSB Image T6 speakers for your main speakers is one of the best available, and run $1300. They have been rated best in their price class by Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.

The PSB Image B5 speakers are around $500, and the Image C4 center is around $400. Those are all excellent speakers (much better than Sonance).

For in-wall or in-ceiing, the PSB CW-88R are around $300 each, and are very good.

Stick with PSB or Focal or KEF, and you will get much better sound quality, and probably pay a MUCH lower price.

Thank you very much. I did become very wary when I couldn't find anything on Sonance on the web. Thanks for confirming my doubts.

You did not say anything about RBH Sound speakers? Have you heard of them?

As for PSB, I will certainly start looking at them. I found a local dealer as well which means I can demo them. smile.gif

As I mentioned in my original post, I just have to find good "in-wall" and in-ceiling speakers. I can't use any free standing speakers. I will be installing them inside cabinetries and we are going to make custom grills on the cabinet door. The cabinets are custom make but the total maximum width of the cabinets will be 13 inches which will give me a inside dimension of 11.5 inches. So if you have any further recommendations I will greatly appreciate it.

Thank you again.
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 03:32 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

When an installer recommends some off-brand speakers like those, you can bet that he is pocketing a lot of money for some so-so speakers he can buy cheap. They are 3rd-rate speakers at Rolls-Royce prices. You are a sucker if you go for them.

Brands like Sonance have a price structure that allows an installer to make a HUGE profit selling a product that is not the best quality. They don't compete at all in the open market, for the simple reason that the price is way out of line and the quality is not the best.

You NEVER want to buy speakers from an installer; his recommendation is based mainly on his profit, not the speaker quality.

You should do some online research and read some independent reviews to select speakers, and go with mainstream companies that have been designing quality speakers for 20 or 40 years.

If you want an installer, get an independent installer that does not insist on pushing his own high-profit "house brand". Just buy your own speakers and pay a fair price for labor only. Most hi-fi dealers that sell quality speakers can either come out and install, for a fee, or recommend an independent guy who will do the work.

My advice would be to go with PSB speakers, which is well-known as one of the best companies in the business and has excellent conventional as well as in-wall/ceiling speakers. You can find local dealers by using the locator on the PSB website.

The prices of those Sonance speakers are about 2 to 3 times higher than they should be, which indicates how much the installer will profit from them. They are way way overpriced.

A Pair of PSB Image T6 speakers for your main speakers is one of the best available, and run $1300. They have been rated best in their price class by Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.

The PSB Image B5 speakers are around $500, and the Image C4 center is around $400. Those are all excellent speakers (much better than Sonance).

For in-wall or in-ceiing, the PSB CW-88R are around $300 each, and are very good.

Stick with PSB or Focal or KEF, and you will get much better sound quality, and probably pay a MUCH lower price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That fact alone is reason enough to avoid them. There are no 'hidden jewels' in audio. When something's good the word spreads fast.

To anyone reading this.....

1st: Sorry for the long post, but I'm quite passionate about the topic and the misinformation already strewn about this thread is very disappointing.

2nd: The two posts above mine are why forums can be dubious places to get information.
Complete, absolute buffoonery trolling from Commsysman (as usual) and Billy F at this point in his career feels like he knows everything there ever was to know but since admitting this to himself (probably in the early 70's) he's stopped learning and is essentially out of touch with the modern world. People on the forums follow him because he has a (putting it generously) snarky, holier than thou attitude and his own website where he makes and sells speakers straight out of 1953. The latter of which also have next to ZERO professional reviews from any major source - hilarious given his little droppings of input in this thread. This is a classic case of people who know nothing of the subject spouting off and giving advice just for the sake of it.

Please see my bullet points below. I hope people who find this thread find them educational.

- SONANCE INVENTED THE IN-WALL SPEAKER in 1982! Since then they have made that their primary focus as a company. They just re-did their "Visual Performance" series and as a demo at CEDIA put them head to head out in the open compared to B&W & Revel's in-walls/in-ceilings and had noticeably better performance than either. They are an innovative company that makes a great product. They sell to custom dealers as well as dealers with large showrooms and have for over 30 years. Their newly re-engineered "Visual Performance" series is excellent compared to most like product. The "Cinema LCR" line needs the kind of updating the Visual Performance products just received..

- Margin, as Commsysman brought up is absolutely.... positively.... the same as any other brand. I know this because my company is a dealer of over two dozen speaker lines and I have dealer cost/price sheets to probably 30 to 40 brands. Is there more margin than KEF? On some stuff -in particular in-room speakers. On others it's the exact same same. But guess what... almost all European companies have thinner margins in the US for dealers. VS other American companies Sonance's margin %'s are virtually identical. On top of that - the differences are slight. MAYBE 5% at most. I would not put Sonance in the same sentence with companies like "Episode" or "The DaVinci Group" who essentially buy dealer's business with HUGE margin on speakers.

- RBH has been around as an OEM manufacturer since the late 70's and then converted to making finished product of their own in the late 80's. They made the cabinet for McIntosh Reference series among others. It's a stunning line from top to bottom in both sound quality and fit & finish along price points ranging from $199 to $50,000 a pair.

- As far as reviews go the reason you're not finding a ton is that in-wall and in-ceiling speakers aren't reviewed a whole lot. There are variables to proper setup and installation that most traditional reviewers cannot cope with so, therefore, they don't get done. The late Gary Altunian had done several architectural product reviews over the years but was kind of a rogue agent in that way. RBH, however, has a TON of reviews to find online - mostly of their traditional box speaker lines (for the reasons I stated) - and those reviews are listed on their website. Here is a link: http://rbhsound.com/reviews.php Something to note about RBH is that they treat their in-walls like their traditional speakers. It would be fair to read reviews on other "Signature and SX" series products and essentially take those sentiments and apply them to the "SI" line of in-walls. Voicing is designed to be similar and integrate between in-room and in-wall - they use the same drivers in both types.

- An opinion as to the quality of the two from someone who has actual and extensive experience with these brands: The RBH SI-6100 series of product > Sonance LCR2 Cinema line of product. The RBH offers larger (6 1/2" vs 5 1/4") drivers, a superior tweeter, and superior construction. At those price points I would also look at the BG Radia SA-360 http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/SA-360%20ProductSheet.pdf . Depending on your room and listening habits there would be reasons I would recommend the BG over the RBH and vice versa. I do NOT feel like the Sonance LCR2 is a real "high value" product at it's price point in the market space it's trying to play in. It also is probably too small for your room in terms of usable output.
esabet's Avatar esabet 04:52 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


...................................

- An opinion as to the quality of the two from someone who has actual and extensive experience with these brands: The RBH SI-6100 series of product > Sonance LCR2 Cinema line of product. The RBH offers larger (6 1/2" vs 5 1/4") drivers, a superior tweeter, and superior construction. At those price points I would also look at the BG Radia SA-360 http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/SA-360%20ProductSheet.pdf . Depending on your room and listening habits there would be reasons I would recommend the BG over the RBH and vice versa. I do NOT feel like the Sonance LCR2 is a real "high value" product at it's price point in the market space it's trying to play in. It also is probably too small for your room in terms of usable output.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply PlexMulti.

I did come across a review on the RBH SI-6100 Reference series : http://hometheaterreview.com/rbh-si-6100r-reference-in-wall-loudspeaker-reviewed/ . It is a good review though it shows a MSRP of over $3,000. RBH does offer the same speakers in non-reference which I would imagine to be less expensive but not sure how much less they would be. Should I ultimately decide to go with RBH, does it really make that much of a difference reference vs. non-reference?

Another issue that I may also have with RBH is that the enclosure for the speaker is larger than my built-in cabinets. I would assume that I can install the speakers outside their intended enclosure by custom making my own enclosure within the cabinetry but I am certain it will have an impact on the overall performance and sound of the speakers.

From reading all the replies, one way or another, it seems Sonance is not really a vital solution for my setup. I had thought the Cinema LCR2 speaker was an improvement over their original LCR series but the price point is way too high for what they offer I guess.

That said, any other speaker recommendation would be greatly appreciated. The cabinets that the speakers will be installed inside are going to be at most 13 inches wide (outside dimension), a maximum of 11.5 inches wide inside opening.

Thanks again to all the posters.
craig john's Avatar craig john 06:28 PM 03-29-2014
If in-walls are an important criteria, check out Triad. http://www.triadspeakers.com/ They make in-wall versions of every line of their speakers, and they are indistinguishable from the in-room or on-wall versions.

RBH is an *excellent* speaker maker. I wouldn't hesitate to go with them either. Like Triad, they are a small American company that makes excellent products at prices that reflect their heritage. They focus the marketing of their products through the custom installer channels, so you can't just go to Best Buy to get them. However, that doesn't make them a bad value, as one other uninformed poster suggested above.

Sonance, Cinema LCR's are THX Select certified for rooms less than 2,000 cubic feet, and listening distances of less than 12'. If your room and LP fit those criteria, they would be OK. However, they do not have integral enclosures, so you are at the mercy of your wall construction for the enclosure.

If you want THX certified in-walls, the Klipsch THX Ultra2' in-walls would be a much better choice. They have integral enclosures, and they're certified for rooms of 3,000 cubic feet and greater that 12' listening distances: http://www.klipsch.com/architectural-thx-speakers

Good luck.

Craig
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 07:25 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esabet View Post

Thank you very much for the detailed reply PlexMulti.

I did come across a review on the RBH SI-6100 Reference series : http://hometheaterreview.com/rbh-si-6100r-reference-in-wall-loudspeaker-reviewed/ . It is a good review though it shows a MSRP of over $3,000. RBH does offer the same speakers in non-reference which I would imagine to be less expensive but not sure how much less they would be. Should I ultimately decide to go with RBH, does it really make that much of a difference reference vs. non-reference?

Another issue that I may also have with RBH is that the enclosure for the speaker is larger than my built-in cabinets. I would assume that I can install the speakers outside their intended enclosure by custom making my own enclosure within the cabinetry but I am certain it will have an impact on the overall performance and sound of the speakers.

From reading all the replies, one way or another, it seems Sonance is not really a vital solution for my setup. I had thought the Cinema LCR2 speaker was an improvement over their original LCR series but the price point is way too high for what they offer I guess.

That said, any other speaker recommendation would be greatly appreciated. The cabinets that the speakers will be installed inside are going to be at most 13 inches wide (outside dimension), a maximum of 11.5 inches wide inside opening.

Thanks again to all the posters.

Great information. Thanks!

So, you are right on all counts: The RBH really works best in the designed enclosure for it. Obviously, as you pointed out, it's not going to fit in your design. I would also agree with you (happily) that sacrificing aesthetics of the cabinet would not be wise. Listen, there are lots of great options out there for you WITHOUT having to to that!

Your room isn't insanely huge per se, but it is on the large(ish) size at 4400 cubic feet. I am going to assume that you are looking for high quality going by the models you were looking at previously. I don't know your existing equipment or if this is all starting from scratch, but the speakers I would recommend for you will require more than just a receiver to power. Honestly, the RBH SI-6100 would have needed some power as well.

I would recommend the BG Radia SA-500 ($2,500/ea. MSRP) or, to save some money, the SA-320 ($1500/ea). The SA-500 is, IMO, the better choice as the 4 - 5 1/4" double gap woofers per speaker will help in the larger space. Both of these are stronger performers than the RBH product, as long as you amplify them properly. Parasound New Classic product is fine. We use 3 SA-360 for the front stage in our design center in a system with a 180" screen and they sound HUGE and absolutely stunning. The above models I recommended would sound similar for you in your setup. I wish there were something with larger drivers to recommend to you, but your size requirements are what they are. On top of that, anything with a larger woofer still won't out perform the BG planar magnetics when it comes to fidelity.

Why these?

- Well, 1st of all: They fit... perfectly. The back box the these are 8 1/4" wide and 3 3/8" deep (the speaker itself is 7 1/8"). So, this will fit your custom front grille dimensions perfectly, your inside cab dimensions perfectly, and your depth. Problem solved there.

- 2nd: BG radia makes the finest architectural (in-wall/in-ceiling) speakers I've been able to find and I have gone through just about everything on the market over the years (not exaggerating). The BG sound is gotten through their proprietary drivers call "PMD". PMD stands for Planar Magnetic Driver. They have all of the benefits of an electrostatic, but none of the drawbacks. This is because, unlike an electrostatic speaker, the PMD drivers are relatively small (3", 8", & 10") which allows them to be incredibly fast without breakup. This translates into detail and texture in their sound that are superb. Far surpassing a traditional "Cone & Dome" speaker configuration. The ONLY negative to the BG PMD speaker is "Crap in crap out". They are going to sound unlike anything you've ever heard when playing a good source or recording. If you're streaming a lot of Pandora through the headphone jack of your iPhone, where quality varies, sometimes you can hear how cruddy and flat the compressed music is. Other things like TV, BluRay, etc. are going to be spectacular.

So, given all of your requirements, I would at least recommend investigating the following links:

SA-500 http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/SA-500%20ProductSheet.pdf
SA-320 http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/SA-320%20ProductSheet.pdf

Home Theater Review (NOTE: The BG sound is virtually universal. They all use the same drivers and create the same family, or type, of sound presentation. So, when reading this review it is reasonable to understand that the SA-500/SA-320 are going to offer the same characteristics as the review speakers - with the exception of the line array effect): http://www.soundandvision.com/content/bg-radia-la-550-wall-speaker-system
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 07:26 PM 03-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If in-walls are an important criteria, check out Triad. http://www.triadspeakers.com/ They make in-wall versions of every line of their speakers, and they are indistinguishable from the in-room or on-wall versions.

RBH is an *excellent* speaker maker. I wouldn't hesitate to go with them either. Like Triad, they are a small American company that makes excellent products at prices that reflect their heritage. They focus the marketing of their products through the custom installer channels, so you can't just go to Best Buy to get them. However, that doesn't make them a bad value, as one other uninformed poster suggested above.

Sonance, Cinema LCR's are THX Select certified for rooms less than 2,000 cubic feet, and listening distances of less than 12'. If your room and LP fit those criteria, they would be OK. However, they do not have integral enclosures, so you are at the mercy of your wall construction for the enclosure.

If you want THX certified in-walls, the Klipsch THX Ultra2' in-walls would be a much better choice. They have integral enclosures, and they're certified for rooms of 3,000 cubic feet and greater that 12' listening distances: http://www.klipsch.com/architectural-thx-speakers

Good luck.

Craig

Just a heads up, the Sonance Cinema LCR's do all have enclosures.
esabet's Avatar esabet 08:00 AM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If in-walls are an important criteria, check out Triad. http://www.triadspeakers.com/ They make in-wall versions of every line of their speakers, and they are indistinguishable from the in-room or on-wall versions.

RBH is an *excellent* speaker maker. I wouldn't hesitate to go with them either. Like Triad, they are a small American company that makes excellent products at prices that reflect their heritage. They focus the marketing of their products through the custom installer channels, so you can't just go to Best Buy to get them. However, that doesn't make them a bad value, as one other uninformed poster suggested above.

Sonance, Cinema LCR's are THX Select certified for rooms less than 2,000 cubic feet, and listening distances of less than 12'. If your room and LP fit those criteria, they would be OK. However, they do not have integral enclosures, so you are at the mercy of your wall construction for the enclosure.

If you want THX certified in-walls, the Klipsch THX Ultra2' in-walls would be a much better choice. They have integral enclosures, and they're certified for rooms of 3,000 cubic feet and greater that 12' listening distances: http://www.klipsch.com/architectural-thx-speakers

Good luck.

Craig

Thank you very much for your input Craig.

From what I have been reading and searching I see that Triad speakers are very good but regretfully due to my cabinet limitations, I may be out of luck with Triad speakers! frown.gif As I mentioned in the thread earlier, besides the dimensions of the cabinet box, the custom grill/opening on the cabinet door will be at most 8 to 8.5 inches wide.

The RBH SI-6100 speakers were also a vital choice till I had discovered that they require their own enclosures which is too big to fit inside my cabinets. I called the manufacturer direct and though they said that I could install them outside their enclosures, they cautioned me that it will not sound the same since they designed based on their enclosures!!! frown.gif

The Klipsch speakers were my VERY first options but was not certain if I was going to be happy with them. Because of my cabinet size I would have to go with the KL-6504-THX In-Wall Speakers and NOT the KL-7800-THX In-Wall Speakers and I am not sure that would be sufficient for my room size. Though I must admit that the price point is VERY ATTRACTIVE for what I believe they can deliver.

I always knew that this is going to be fun and thanks for all the posters here I am learning a great deal!! THANK YOU
esabet's Avatar esabet 08:15 AM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Great information. Thanks!

So, you are right on all counts: The RBH really works best in the designed enclosure for it. Obviously, as you pointed out, it's not going to fit in your design. I would also agree with you (happily) that sacrificing aesthetics of the cabinet would not be wise. Listen, there are lots of great options out there for you WITHOUT having to to that!

Your room isn't insanely huge per se, but it is on the larg(ish) size at 4400 square feet. I am going to assume that you are looking for high quality going by the models you were looking at previously. I don't know your existing equipment or if this is all starting from scratch, but the speakers I would recommend for you will require more than just a receiver to power. Honestly, the RBH SI-6100 would have needed some power as well.

I would recommend the BG Radia SA-500 ($2,500/ea. MSRP) or, to save some money, the SA-320 ($1500/ea). The SA-500 is, IMO, the better choice as the 4 - 5 1/4" double gap woofers per speaker will help in the larger space. Both of these are stronger performers than the RBH product, as long as you amplify them properly. Parasound New Classic product is fine. We use 3 SA-360 for the front stage in our design center in a system with a 180" screen and they sound HUGE and absolutely stunning. The above models I recommended would sound similar for you in your setup. I wish there were something with larger drivers to recommend to you, but your size requirements are what they are. On top of that, anything with a larger woofer still won't out perform the BG planar magnetics when it comes to fidelity.

...................................

PlexMulti, thank you.

The first time you mentioned the BG Radia speakers, when I visited the website the SA-500 became my favorite. Though the price is the only sticky point, I am very much considering them once I have a look at how much the "entire" speaker setup will cost me.

So assuming that I will use the SA-500 for the Left and Right channels at the minimum, can you please assist me further as for what you would recommend for:

  • The Center channel?
  • The Left and Right Surrounds? Just please keep in mind that these will have to be in-ceiling speakers and maximum cut-out width can not be more than 10.5 inches wide (ceiling joist limitations!! frown.gif )
  • The Back Left and Right Surrounds?

Much will be appreciated.
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 09:04 AM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esabet View Post

PlexMulti, thank you.

The first time you mentioned the BG Radia speakers, when I visited the website the SA-500 became my favorite. Though the price is the only sticky point, I am very much considering them once I have a look at how much the "entire" speaker setup will cost me.

So assuming that I will use the SA-500 for the Left and Right channels at the minimum, can you please assist me further as for what you would recommend for:

  • The Center channel?
  • The Left and Right Surrounds? Just please keep in mind that these will have to be in-ceiling speakers and maximum cut-out width can not be more than 10.5 inches wide (ceiling joist limitations!! frown.gif )
  • The Back Left and Right Surrounds?

Much will be appreciated.

No problem!

- The perfect, correct solution would be to have 3 of the SA-500 for the Left/Right/Center. You COULD substitute the SA-320 for the center as well and get away with it, but it would be a bit of a deviation from what I would say is a perfectly voice matched front stage. Price wise the SA-500 carries about the same MSRP as the RBH SI-6100 & the Sonance LCR2.

- The back boxes go for around $200/ea.

- For this system I would use the BD-8Ci for all 4 rear speakers. http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/PD-8ci-literature.pdf . We do this in our design center system where the ceilings are 10' high and find it's a perfectly acceptable compromise on budget vs BG's actual "surround" designs. The 8" Kevalr woofer put out plenty of bass and the NEO3 PMD for the tweeter is ultra revealing while voicing similarly to the fronts. MSRP on those is $895/pair. Cutout dimension: 9 5/8"

- Subwoofers are a subject not covered. Do you have questions there or do you feel good with your direction on that front?
craig john's Avatar craig john 09:28 AM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

- The perfect, correct solution would be to have 3 of the SA-500 for the Left/Right/Center.
Would the answer be the same if he needed to turn the CC to a horizontal position? The "controlled directivity" of the design would be inappropriately deployed when mounted horizontally. Wouldn't the CC-400 be the better choice:
http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/CC-400%20ProductSheet.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

You COULD substitute the SA-320 for the center as well and get away with it, but it would be a bit of a deviation from what I would say is a perfectly voice matched front stage. Price wise the SA-500 carries about the same MSRP as the RBH SI-6100 & the Sonance LCR2.
Same question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

- The back boxes go for around $200/ea.
I couldn't find anything on the BG website about back boxes or enclosures. Do you have a link?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

- Subwoofers are a subject not covered. Do you have questions there or do you feel good with your direction on that front?
Good question.

Craig
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 10:35 AM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Would the answer be the same if he needed to turn the CC to a horizontal position? The "controlled directivity" of the design would be inappropriately deployed when mounted horizontally. Wouldn't the CC-400 be the better choice:
http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/CC-400%20ProductSheet.pdf
Same question.
I couldn't find anything on the BG website about back boxes or enclosures. Do you have a link?
Good question.

Craig

- With the CC I would say that depends on his cabinet dimensions and layout on if it could even fit in there. I am assuming it cannot. In the perfect world, yes, the larger speaker would be superior with it's driver config. The NEO3 on the BGs is able to be rotated to give it wider dispersion when mounted horizontally so I wouldn't fret that a whole lot, especially at the sake of the cabinet design. Those drivers throw very wide.

- The back box enclosures aren't on their website, but they are on the dealer price sheets with drawings of each cabinet model. All of them are made of metal, provide stuffing, and are designed to go in BEFORE construction or, in this case, while the cabinet is being built. All of the back boxes have a depth of 3 3/8" to fit inside a traditional 2x4 wall cavity. We used them in our cabinet at our design center and I have one extra to show clients. I'll take a pic of it a little later today and post it. For full range performance BG does NOT recommend a back box as it limits performance in the low end. This is true for nearly ALL in-wall designs unless the cabinet is HUGE. For multi-channel performance a back box is fine as the speaker will be cut off at 80hz.
esabet's Avatar esabet 01:42 PM 03-30-2014
Thank you (and Craig for raising good questions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

No problem!

- The perfect, correct solution would be to have 3 of the SA-500 for the Left/Right/Center. You COULD substitute the SA-320 for the center as well and get away with it, but it would be a bit of a deviation from what I would say is a perfectly voice matched front stage. Price wise the SA-500 carries about the same MSRP as the RBH SI-6100 & the Sonance LCR2.

Agreed as it was my original thought. I will go ahead and use the SA-500 for all three front channels (Left, Center and Right). As for price I had missed that we are talking MSRP so I think we are at the correct budget at this point!! smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


- The back boxes go for around $200/ea.

Do I need the back boxes for the SA-500 even though I am installing them inside custom cabinets? I can always ask my cabinet maker to create and enclosure that the speakers will fit inside!! For example if the depth behind the speaker makes a difference then I can have it adjusted by blocking the extra space!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


- For this system I would use the BD-8Ci for all 4 rear speakers. http://www.bgcorp.com/PDFs/PD-8ci-literature.pdf . We do this in our design center system where the ceilings are 10' high and find it's a perfectly acceptable compromise on budget vs BG's actual "surround" designs. The 8" Kevalr woofer put out plenty of bass and the NEO3 PMD for the tweeter is ultra revealing while voicing similarly to the fronts. MSRP on those is $895/pair. Cutout dimension: 9 5/8"

I can see how these will be perfect for my Side Surrounds, thank you. BUT, as for the back/rear surrounds, I have similar setup as the front where I have cabinets on the wall with same dimensions as the ones in the front. In fact I can NOT install any speakers for the rear/back surrounds on the ceiling. That said, what would you now recommend for the in-wall speakers for the rear/back surrounds (keeping my cabinet sizes in mind and grill openings)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


- Subwoofers are a subject not covered. Do you have questions there or do you feel good with your direction on that front?

I didn't discuss the subwoofers since I have already purchased them (and now hoping that it was not too hasty of a move since I did it before I had decided on my actual speakers!!) For some odd reasons from the begging the one thing I was most concerned about was how I am going to locate in-wall subwoofers that would be "least visible" and work well with the space. After some long research I came across these: Velodyne SubContractor Series IWDVR In-wall Subwoofers. After reading some reviews and speaking with the manufacturer I ordered a pair of these together with the matching amplifier SC-1250 1250w Amplifier.

What first attracted me to these speakers was the fact that the grill size, they refer to it as the "designer grill", could easily fit in the base molding of the room as it is only 4.5" high x 14" wide!! That notion, together with the good reviews I read, I felt that they are the perfect outfit for my room. I just hope that I was not too hasty and that they will perform well together with the main speakers.
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 03:21 PM 03-30-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esabet View Post

Thank you (and Craig for raising good questions).
Agreed as it was my original thought. I will go ahead and use the SA-500 for all three front channels (Left, Center and Right). As for price I had missed that we are talking MSRP so I think we are at the correct budget at this point!! smile.gif
Do I need the back boxes for the SA-500 even though I am installing them inside custom cabinets? I can always ask my cabinet maker to create and enclosure that the speakers will fit inside!! For example if the depth behind the speaker makes a difference then I can have it adjusted by blocking the extra space!
I can see how these will be perfect for my Side Surrounds, thank you. BUT, as for the back/rear surrounds, I have similar setup as the front where I have cabinets on the wall with same dimensions as the ones in the front. In fact I can NOT install any speakers for the rear/back surrounds on the ceiling. That said, what would you now recommend for the in-wall speakers for the rear/back surrounds (keeping my cabinet sizes in mind and grill openings)?
I didn't discuss the subwoofers since I have already purchased them (and now hoping that it was not too hasty of a move since I did it before I had decided on my actual speakers!!) For some odd reasons from the begging the one thing I was most concerned about was how I am going to locate in-wall subwoofers that would be "least visible" and work well with the space. After some long research I came across these: Velodyne SubContractor Series IWDVR In-wall Subwoofers. After reading some reviews and speaking with the manufacturer I ordered a pair of these together with the matching amplifier SC-1250 1250w Amplifier.

What first attracted me to these speakers was the fact that the grill size, they refer to it as the "designer grill", could easily fit in the base molding of the room as it is only 4.5" high x 14" wide!! That notion, together with the good reviews I read, I felt that they are the perfect outfit for my room. I just hope that I was not too hasty and that they will perform well together with the main speakers.

- Yes, absolutely you can have your cabinet maker tailor the insides of the cabinet.

- For the rear surrounds, given your size requirements the SA-200 http://www.bgcorp.com/product/sa-200/ would fit and work great. Or, the smaller CA-100 could do in a budget crunch, but it's a little small, IMO.

That sub I have never worked with but Velodyne is a good company. Subs are not a "voiced" product like normal speakers and will integrate fine with the speaker system.
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 08:48 AM 03-31-2014
Please see pics of a BG Radia SA-360 and it's enclosure....

(Just in case anyone asks, in the back ground is a 10" Reference driver out of an RBH T-30LSE)






We have a front stage setup on the outsides of our large theater with the center behind the 180" acoustically transparent screen. All 3 are the SA-360 and all three are vertically aligned.

See pic:
esabet's Avatar esabet 11:24 AM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Please see pics of a BG Radia SA-360 and it's enclosure....

(Just in case anyone asks, in the back ground is a 10" Reference driver out of an RBH T-30LSE)


We have a front stage setup on the outsides of our large theater with the center behind the 180" acoustically transparent screen. All 3 are the SA-360 and all three are vertically aligned.


THANK YOU. Really nice!

By the way, looking at those enclosures (with the padding and everything), one would think they will have an impact on the output of the speakers. I know you had replied that we could custom fit them into the cabinets without the enclosures, but would the result be the same sound reference and quality?
esabet's Avatar esabet 11:39 AM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

- Yes, absolutely you can have your cabinet maker tailor the insides of the cabinet.

- For the rear surrounds, given your size requirements the SA-200 http://www.bgcorp.com/product/sa-200/ would fit and work great. Or, the smaller CA-100 could do in a budget crunch, but it's a little small, IMO.

That sub I have never worked with but Velodyne is a good company. Subs are not a "voiced" product like normal speakers and will integrate fine with the speaker system.


I will go ahead and use the SA-200. It seems to be certainly the way to go.

Also THANK YOU for setting my mind at ease about my Subwoofer selection. I know that you have never worked with those subs (and neither have I), but the support is great! Thank you.

So to summarize (and to confirm) here is how the final speaker line-up will look like for my setup:

  • SA-500 for the Left, Center and Right Channels
  • BD-8Ci for the Left and Right Surround Channels
  • SA-200 for the Left and Right Back Channels


One question. I was looking at their Surround Speakers, more specifically the SS-202, I know that it says in-wall, but can they be installed in-ceiling as well? The cutout dimensions (10-3/8") could be managed if (1) they can be installed in the ceiling and (2) you feel they are a much better choice than the BD-8Ci speakers for the Left and Right Surrounds (not back)?
wpbpete's Avatar wpbpete 11:42 AM 03-31-2014
+1 Kudos PlexMulti, this is one of the most helpful threads I've ever seen in this forum. Nice job!
PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 03:26 PM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esabet View Post

I will go ahead and use the SA-200. It seems to be certainly the way to go.

Also THANK YOU for setting my mind at ease about my Subwoofer selection. I know that you have never worked with those subs (and neither have I), but the support is great! Thank you.

So to summarize (and to confirm) here is how the final speaker line-up will look like for my setup:

  • SA-500 for the Left, Center and Right Channels
  • BD-8Ci for the Left and Right Surround Channels
  • SA-200 for the Left and Right Back Channels


One question. I was looking at their Surround Speakers, more specifically the SS-202, I know that it says in-wall, but can they be installed in-ceiling as well? The cutout dimensions (10-3/8") could be managed if (1) they can be installed in the ceiling and (2) you feel they are a much better choice than the BD-8Ci speakers for the Left and Right Surrounds (not back)?

The PD-8Ci is absolutely the much better choice. A few reasons....

1: I will assume you have canned lights. These are round, like the lights (unless your lights are square then.......).

2. On a more serious note, the 8" in the PD-8Ci provides a lot more bass than the little 4"s in the 202.

3. The 202 is great for small/small-medium systems where the sides are positioned in-between multiple rows of seating. Other than that, the dispersion from the NEO3 is so wide that the in-ceiling (when you angle the tweeter) will cover your listening areas with a large fan of sound. I don't see a benefit with the more expensive 202 in that installation situation to where the PD8-Ci would be at a disadvantage.

Please see the below pics. IGNORE the large rectangular speaker in the ceiling. That is for a Phase Technology dARTS system that is also behind the large screen). Notice how the in ceiling sides have the tweeters angled? This sounds excellent and matches the tonality as well as the higher output of the large SA-360s up front. There is not a thing I would change with this setup. In a different room, sure, other options exist but, given what we were trying to show and accomplish with this open room layout, I'm very proud of how it performs.

PS: Sorry for the mess. These were taken during construction.



PlexMulti's Avatar PlexMulti 03:56 PM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post

+1 Kudos PlexMulti, this is one of the most helpful threads I've ever seen in this forum. Nice job!

Thank you! I enjoy the forum very much and, rather than just read for free I feel like if I have something to offer I should do so. Hopefully people find this thread and it's contents to be helpful in some way.
esabet's Avatar esabet 04:31 PM 03-31-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

The PD-8Ci is absolutely the much better choice. A few reasons....

1: I will assume you have canned lights. These are round, like the lights (unless your lights are square then.......).

2. On a more serious note, the 8" in the PD-8Ci provides a lot more bass than the little 4"s in the 202.

3. The 202 is great for small/small-medium systems where the sides are positioned in-between multiple rows of seating. Other than that, the dispersion from the NEO3 is so wide that the in-ceiling (when you angle the tweeter) will cover your listening areas with a large fan of sound. I don't see a benefit with the more expensive 202 in that installation situation to where the PD8-Ci would be at a disadvantage.

Please see the below pics. IGNORE the large rectangular speaker in the ceiling. That is for a Phase Technology dARTS system that is also behind the large screen). Notice how the in ceiling sides have the tweeters angled? This sounds excellent and matches the tonality as well as the higher output of the large SA-360s up front. There is not a thing I would change with this setup. In a different room, sure, other options exist but, given what we were trying to show and accomplish with this open room layout, I'm very proud of how it performs.

PS: Sorry for the mess. These were taken during construction.


Then it seems I am ready to go with these selections tanks to your tremendous help and knowledge!!

BTW, did you see my other post? It was about the enclosures. I had thought that you may miss it as its in between two larger posts...LOL . Here is what I had asked earlier:

Looking at those enclosures (with the padding and everything), one would think they will have an impact on the output of the speakers. I know you had replied that we could custom fit them into the cabinets without the enclosures, but would the result be the same sound reference and quality? For few dollars more I wouldn't want to compromise anything.
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