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post #1 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone, I'm looking for new speakers for an art house cinema that I work for. The room is about 1200 ft^2 but the seating area is only about 11 ft x 20 ft (It doubles as a play house). The budget is $800 or less. Less is better. We want new left right and center speakers. I'm currently considering these BIC America speakers...

http://www.parts-express.com/bic-formula-fh6-lcr-6-1-2-2-way-mtm-center-channel-speaker--303-438

http://www.parts-express.com/bic-formula-fh-65b-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speakers-175-watts--303-434

Or possibly even just buying three of the center speakers. I'm unfamiliar with BIC America though and I don't want to buy something that has poor sound quality or that distorts.

I'm going to be using a 1kW Dual Titan Mk III sub in a 20 ft^3 enclosure tuned to 19 Hz as well.

Opinions? I'm open to other suggestions as well. We just are looking for something that will give us the best bang for the buck. Decent sound quality for the least amount of money possible.

Thanks,

Travis
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post #2 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 08:10 PM
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The speakers you are looking at are not designed for the constant high volumes of a commercial cinema application, I would not get those. They may sound bad by straining to fill the room with decent sound, and they may not last long either. Your budget is extremely tight for what you are trying to accomplish. If you can do DIY, you might look at some of the designs at billfitzmaurice.com and ask questions over there. I would also be looking at some of the SEOS builds that can be done within your budget. Either one of those will be incomparably better than BIC bookshelf speakers. If you can not do DIY, I would be looking at pro-audio speakers, Live sound PA speakers like these, Mackies, JBLs, Behringers, Yamahas. Many pro-audio places will sell used PA speakers for not too much $. You might also look around for some used Klipsch Heritage speakers, you can get Heresys, Fortes, Chorus, Cornwalls, KGs, etc, for not too much $ I bet those could take on the room of your description pretty easily.
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post #3 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Shady. I thought the same thing at first but then I also thought that the seating area is not really that much bigger than many larger home theater rooms. Of course there would be less room gain with the walls being farther away though but if the specs on the literature are at all reliable it looks on paper to be more than adequate. With SPL of 96 dB 1w/1m, power handling of 175 Watts, and the center of the listening area only being about four meters from the speaker.... it seems with a 130 Watts of power it could produce about 117 dB SPL at one meter. At the listening position it would be about 101 dB SPL assuming about 4 dB loss per doubling of distance. A little below reference level, but we typically play our movies a few dB below reference anyway, and this way they would still be well within their power handling limit of 175 Watts.

Am I missing something?
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post #4 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 08:57 PM
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Stick with Shady's advice. Eventually, you're going to get a rock n' roll show and someone's going start crankin' those puppies long and hard....
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post #5 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 09:00 PM
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Lol those specs are completely bogus, don't pay attention to them. Those speakers would not be able to handle a large home theater room, let alone a commercial cinema venue, even a small one. Those speakers are using a horn loaded aluminum dome tweeter with a nothing special 6.5" woofer. They would be totally insufficient for your purposes. If you pushed them hard they will compress pretty badly, plus they will go into nasty distortion when hit with peaks. Also, the loss of doubling distance is 6 dB, not 4 dB. Any of the kinds of speakers I mentioned will be far superior, plus they can be within your budget. Check out your local pro-audio places; do you have a Guitar Center nearby? Check out criagslist and ebay. Do you mind if I ask what city you are in?
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post #6 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Perhaps your right. I'm in Ogden, UT but the location is in Reno, NV. The 6 dB loss per doubling of distance applies only to free-field. It will always be less indoors.

They actually have some Fender Passport speakers now. The problem is that they are 4 ohm speakers and the receiver is 8 ohm stable. This has lead to the receiver going into protection mode on occasion. Maybe I should just look for a new center speaker and receiver and keep the Passports. But I'm concerned about finding something that would blend well with the Fender speakers. What are your thoughts?

What about the subwoofer? should I sacrifice some low end build something with more oomph in the 35 Hz and up range? It's capable of about 121 dB free field at 1m.
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-04-2014, 11:07 PM
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The passports are a lot more appropriate for your application than BICs. I would get an amp that can handle four ohm loads for the time being. I might look into getting better speakers eventually than small gig touring speakers like the Passports, and with more of a budget than 800. As for the subwoofer, I would build something with a higher tuning point, like a 35 Hz tuning. You will need all the output you can get. And you say this is an art house cinema, those kind of movies do not get into deep bass. Basically only action movies and occasionally horror movies dig below 30 Hz, so deeper tuning just won't do you any good.
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post #8 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Shady,

You'd be surprised. We are using that Dual 15" subwoofer tuned to 19 Hz right now in a smaller cinema in Ogden (it's about one-third this one's size). There have been a number of films that we've had that shake everything. Shaolin had simply amazing deep bass all the way through. There have been a number of others as well like the cannon's in Saving Lincoln. We show The Polar Express every year around Christmas and the scene where a train pulls in is very impressive. After talking to you, I've decided that It would be better to keep that one in the smaller space where it can really shine and build one that is several dB louder, but with less low end for this new space.

I need a center speaker to go with the Passports though, I can't set the center channel to phantom because the distributors require 5.1 channels minimum and I'm hoping to get something that matches the timbre of the Passports fairly well. Any suggestions?
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post #9 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 09:28 AM
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If your room is truly onlyLCR's0 you would be fine with efficient floorstanders and center will do the trick. Or maybe 3 of those Bic LCR's

Maybe a PA Speaker System would be better
http://www.123dj.com/packages/pa/index.html
http://www.123dj.com/packages/pa/megaforce3000.html
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post #10 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 10:15 AM
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I would go with powered speakers and eliminate the amp clipping situation at the same time. There's plenty of powered pro and consumer speakers out there that'll fit your needs.
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post #11 of 22 Old 04-05-2014, 10:26 AM
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As has been eluded to, see this not as a reason to shoehorn a home theater system into a commercial space. See it as a reason to bring what you have up to a proaudio level.

Changing all to powered speakers will probably blow the budget (at least for anything good). You haven't stated what model Passports or receiver you have. Hopefully your receiver has l/c/r preouts for use with an external amp. If so, I would get 3-4 channels of proaudio amplification, perhaps used Crown CE or XLS. These amps go for cheap, are workhorses if treated properly and can be used with a variety of setups (futureproof). Get another Passport for your center channel if you can find one. If not, get a similar sized model (horn, driver, cab) from one of the commodity manufacturers like EV, JBL, etc. Do not be afraid to go used here, but try to buy with some kind of warranty even if it's 30 day. Keep your sub as-is since it seems to serve the purpose. This should all come in under budget.
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post #12 of 22 Old 04-06-2014, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, what about this for the left right and center....

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-b212xl-eurolive-12-2-way-pa-speaker-system--248-6476

$160 * 3 = $480

A new 145 W X 5 receiver...

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-5-2-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/dp/B00GL94S5M/ref=sr_1_44?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1396842573&sr=1-44&keywords=home+theater+receiver

$250

subwoofer driver 17.5 ft^3 tuned to 33.5 Hz

[URL=http://PRV Audio 18SW2500 18" High Power Pro Audio Subwoofer 8 Ohm]PRV Audio 18SW2500 18" High Power Pro Audio Subwoofer 8 Ohm[/URL]

$290

Subwoofer amplifier with maybe a fourth order high-pass filter set at 30 hz
http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu1000dsp-inuke-1000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6702

$200

Plus about $175 for materials to build the subwoofer enclosure,

$1400 total.

What do you think? Is it respectable?

Thanks
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post #13 of 22 Old 04-06-2014, 09:56 PM
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The Behringer speakers would be better than what you have and would be enough to fill the room easy. They are so cheap that it makes me nervous, something has to give there. The sub driver looks like it would work to, it is not geared toward deep bass, but it will get loud no doubt. It all looks like it would work on paper. I would start a thread in the DIY forum asking about this stuff, they have a lot more experience with pro-audio stuff over there. Home audio receivers aren't meant for the kind of use you intend to give them, I have seen that void warranties before, but the AVR you are looking at is so cheap, I guess it wouldn't matter very much if it did die in a year or two.
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post #14 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibby Travis View Post

Okay, what about this for the left right and center....

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-b212xl-eurolive-12-2-way-pa-speaker-system--248-6476

$160 * 3 = $480

A new 145 W X 5 receiver...

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-5-2-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/dp/B00GL94S5M/ref=sr_1_44?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1396842573&sr=1-44&keywords=home+theater+receiver

$250
. . . . . .

$1400 total.

What do you think? Is it respectable?

Thanks
The Behringer B212XL's are active/powered speakers the Sony receiver only supports Passive speakers. You need a receiver that has Pre-outs for those speakers if you want to use them

Again please give us the whole dimensions of your Art House cinema and whether its closed off or open. Include ceiling height as well. If you give use these dimensions and such we will be better able to give you a recommendation for you $1,400 budget
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post #15 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 12:18 PM
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Those Behringers are passive PA speakers.
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post #16 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 01:31 PM
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Here's a nice high quality setup close to budget. No more clipping amp and a versatile Oppo with pre-outs. Shoot, i should grab that Oppo LoL biggrin.gif

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B212D/ $750 for 3

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/36102/oppo-bdp-83-225 $250

http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/pb12-nsd-outlet_5 $549 or any sub of your liking
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post #17 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post

Here's a nice high quality setup close to budget. No more clipping amp and a versatile Oppo with pre-outs. Shoot, i should grab that Oppo LoL biggrin.gif

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B212D/ $750 for 3

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/36102/oppo-bdp-83-225 $250

http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/pb12-nsd-outlet_5 $549 or any sub of your liking

That sub would only have a small fraction of the output that the OP is considering. A very poor choice for a commercial theater, even a small one.
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post #18 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 02:18 PM
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I did say, or any sub of your liking. It"s over the op"s budget the o, so maybe link him something better and cheaper. It is a better choice than the Bic tho... smile.gif
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post #19 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 02:49 PM
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The OP already has his sights set on a very high output 18" DIY with a iNuke amp, he is covered there.
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post #20 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Pete,

I think that separates might blow the budget. Most of our films come on a server, not on Blu Ray. We would need a sound processor that could decode the HDMI signal from the server which doesn't belong to us. It's leased to us by a movie distribution company. Those SVS subs are great. Tom Vodhanel actually gave me some advice when I was building my first sub way back in the late 90's before him and Ron Stimpson started SVS. Those guys know their stuff. I don't think that any 400 W 4 ft^3 sub with an f3 of 18 Hz is going to be able to produce the kind SPL to fill a room that large though.
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post #21 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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The dimensions of the room are...

69.6 ft x 17.2 ft x 13.8 ft

The ceiling is 13.8 ft high. Currently, only a curtain separates the screening room from the lobby. There is a stage behind the screen because it is also a play house. The seating area is actually only 11 x 20.
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post #22 of 22 Old 04-07-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibby Travis View Post

Thanks Pete,

I think that separates might blow the budget. Most of our films come on a server, not on Blu Ray. We would need a sound processor that could decode the HDMI signal from the server which doesn't belong to us. It's leased to us by a movie distribution company. Those SVS subs are great. Tom Vodhanel actually gave me some advice when I was building my first sub way back in the late 90's before him and Ron Stimpson started SVS. Those guys know their stuff. I don't think that any 400 W 4 ft^3 sub with an f3 of 18 Hz is going to be able to produce the kind SPL to fill a room that large though.
You're welcome, I see what you mean, since your server is connected via hdmi, you would need something along the lines UMC1 to stay in budget. If you could connect via lan then the oppo might still work, depending the media type. Why can't this stuff ever be easy lol smile.gif
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