First Dedicated Theater... Klipsch or Definitive Speakers? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 04-10-2014, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I am building a dedicated theater in our 25' x 14' basement, and I am trying to compare speakers so I get the best price/performance, and something that will fill the space well.

I am looking at a set of Klipsch
2x RF82II for Fronts ($1160/pr)
1x RC52II for Center ($350)
4x RS42II for Surrounds ($400/pr)
2x Paradigm PDR100 for Subs ($370/ea)

The other quote I have is for a set of Definitive
2x Studio Monitor 65 for Front ($450/ea)
1x CS-8040HD for Center ($500)
4x Mythos XTR-20BP for Surrounds ($280/ea)
1x Sunfire HRS10 for Sub ($850)


They will be driven by an Integra DTR 70.4 Receiver
I do not need matched sets, so if the Klipsch are best for Fronts, Mythos for surrounds and WidgetCo has a better center for around the same price, then I'd go that route.
Since the 70.4 is a 9.2 channel speaker, I also considered getting two additional speakers for the 9.2 setup.
I'm concerned that a single 1000w sub might not correct fill the room given it's size, and the fact that it's in the basement (concrete floor), and the price is a bit steep.
My total speaker budget is right around $3500, I might be able to stretch it a bit if it was a good deal.

Any and all thoughts/suggestions appreciated!

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post #2 of 35 Old 04-10-2014, 07:45 PM
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I would skip both setups. First of all, the subwoofers are just not very good. Secondly, there is no reason to pay the premium for tower speakers if you have a subwoofer. The only real advantage tower speakers have over bookshelf speakers is deeper bass extension, but subwoofers will be covering that bass range which towers hold over bookshelfs, so it will do you no good. Third, I would not go with bipoles or dipoles in a 7 channel setup. They are better for surround setups where positional audio doesn't matter, ie a 5 channel system in a les than optimal room. Since 7 channel surround sound attempts to convey a more precise sound stage, bipoles and dipoles like the type you are considering will just mess that up as they have a deliberately ambiguous and messy sound stage. Get bookshelf speakers for surrounds in 7 channel system.

In a 3.5 k budget, if you wanted to go with Klipsch, I would be looking at some RB-61 bookshelf speakers for the front left and right, a RC-62 center, and some RB-51s for the surrounds. I think that would sound better than what your dealer recommended while costing less. I would steer clear of the Klipsch subwoofers. Dealers have some room to maneuver on pricing on Klipsch packages, so try to get a package discount. I'll take Klispch Reference over Deftech, but that is just my preference. Other speakers packages I would look at are some Ascend CMT340s for front left/right/center and some CBM170s for surrounds. Check out some EMP Tek E55Ti towers, an E56Ci center, and some E5Bi surrounds, I know I said towers are a waste with subs, but those E55Tis look like very good performers for the price, and the center is hefty looking a 3 way, I think its worth considering. Might be worth checking out a Hsu Hybrid 15 7.1 package with an extra VTF15h sub, that would knock your doors down with bass and make movie night very fun for guests.

Speaking of subs, you will want to go manufacture direct, as the price/performance ratio is so much better. I would get two for a more even bass sound throughout the room, and therefore a more accurate sound across all the seating. The aforementioned Hsu subs are very hard to beat for the price, subs are really their specialty. SVS has just released a sub that looks like a great performer, the PB2000. A new company called Reaction has a very enticing deal on dual BPS 215s, that will get you four 15" woofers for $1550, could be a great bargain. If you only have room for one sub, in your budget, the best sub you can get is the Rythmik FV15HP.
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post #3 of 35 Old 04-10-2014, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post

I am building a dedicated theater in our 25' x 14' basement, and I am trying to compare speakers so I get the best price/performance, and something that will fill the space well.

I am looking at a set of Klipsch
2x RF82II for Fronts ($1160/pr)
1x RC52II for Center ($350)
4x RS42II for Surrounds ($400/pr)
2x Paradigm PDR100 for Subs ($370/ea)

The other quote I have is for a set of Definitive
2x Studio Monitor 65 for Front ($450/ea)
1x CS-8040HD for Center ($500)
4x Mythos XTR-20BP for Surrounds ($280/ea)
1x Sunfire HRS10 for Sub ($850)


They will be driven by an Integra DTR 70.4 Receiver
I do not need matched sets, so if the Klipsch are best for Fronts, Mythos for surrounds and WidgetCo has a better center for around the same price, then I'd go that route.
Since the 70.4 is a 9.2 channel speaker, I also considered getting two additional speakers for the 9.2 setup.
I'm concerned that a single 1000w sub might not correct fill the room given it's size, and the fact that it's in the basement (concrete floor), and the price is a bit steep.
My total speaker budget is right around $3500, I might be able to stretch it a bit if it was a good deal.

Any and all thoughts/suggestions appreciated!

Crutchfield appears to have those for $499.99/each right now, with free shipping.

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jB7LsVFNNsf/p_714RF82IIC/Klipsch-Reference-RF-82-II-Cherry.html

 

Are you SURE that you don't want to match the front three speakers? The two fronts + the center really ought to be matched.


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post #4 of 35 Old 04-10-2014, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

Crutchfield appears to have those for $499.99/each right now, with free shipping.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jB7LsVFNNsf/p_714RF82IIC/Klipsch-Reference-RF-82-II-Cherry.html

Are you SURE that you don't want to match the front three speakers? The two fronts + the center really ought to be matched.

It's not that I don't WANT to match them, I don't mind either way and didn't want to impose any limitations on ideas.



ShadyJ,
Thank you very much for your suggestions, I will be looking into those!

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post #5 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 04:58 AM
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ShadyJ made some good recommendations, +1 on going with bookshelves and ID subs.

One thing we need to know is if you will be using an acoustically transparent (AT screen)? Having one of these means you can get three identical speakers to place up front behind the screen, and this is the most ideal setup. Horizontal centers are more of a compromise in sound quality for the sake of convenience, if you can go with three vertical speakers it will sound better.

Also, seeing as this is a dedicated space, I would consider some high efficiency theater speakers, to give you the dynamic sound you need for movies. I would recommend three of these Chane Theater Ten speakers, they will have superior dynamics and SPL. These are the updated version of the very popular Chase (the former company that merged) SHO-10, which was a great, affordable theater speaker.

Three of those up front, and then you could consider some surround speakers like the JBL 8320. All the speakers would run you $2000, and would out perform the speakers you listed initially. With the last $1500, I would get a pair of SVS PB-2000 to round out the low end. These are excellent subs, and a pair will help even out bass in the room.

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post #6 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 05:18 AM
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Dizzy with your budget I would look into ( as ShadyJ already mentioned) the Hsu Hybrid 15 7.1 package. BUT if you can do a vertically oriented center speaker I would inquire Hsu about trading out their center speaker for a 7th HB1-MK2 horn bookshelf speaker as a center AND I would buy a 2nd VTF-15H sub. The bookshelf speaker is actually cheaper than the "center" speaker but 7 identical vertically oriented speakers is the best way to go so it will sound better having the bookshelf as a center speaker. Also those VTF15H subs are pretty good, accurate, and dig deep. 2 of them should work very nicely in your sized room.

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post #7 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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After looking into stages last night and trying to figure out more of what I want to do, I think an AT screen is definitely the route that I want to go.

I've been eyeing SVS subs for over 5 years, so I do like that idea wink.gif

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post #8 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

ShadyJ made some good recommendations, +1 on going with bookshelves and ID subs.

One thing we need to know is if you will be using an acoustically transparent (AT screen)? Having one of these means you can get three identical speakers to place up front behind the screen, and this is the most ideal setup. Horizontal centers are more of a compromise in sound quality for the sake of convenience, if you can go with three vertical speakers it will sound better.

Also, seeing as this is a dedicated space, I would consider some high efficiency theater speakers, to give you the dynamic sound you need for movies. I would recommend three of these Chane Theater Ten speakers, they will have superior dynamics and SPL. These are the updated version of the very popular Chase (the former company that merged) SHO-10, which was a great, affordable theater speaker.

Three of those up front, and then you could consider some surround speakers like the JBL 8320. All the speakers would run you $2000, and would out perform the speakers you listed initially. With the last $1500, I would get a pair of SVS PB-2000 to round out the low end. These are excellent subs, and a pair will help even out bass in the room.

This would be about the best you're going to do for HT in a dedicated space. Those Chane speakers will have some serious output and dynamics, especially for the price. If your interested in the Chane speakers they also sell subs- a pair of sealed 18" passive subs with an outboard amp is about $1500. They would have a substantial output advantage over the SVS subs above 20hz.

It would be a great, dynamic setup for HT.

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post #9 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 09:49 AM
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I've been eyeing SVS subs for over 5 years, so I do like that idea wink.gif

Then you should go with some SVS subs. They'll be far better than what you were considering smile.gif

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post #10 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post

After looking into stages last night and trying to figure out more of what I want to do, I think an AT screen is definitely the route that I want to go.

An AT screen setup changes things a bit. In the case of an AT screen, forget standard toppled MTM center speakers (the horizontal layout speakers). Use a vertical speaker as a center, of the same speaker that you use for your left and right fronts. So if you use, say, a Klipsch RB-61 and your left and right, use one for the center as well. It will perform better and save you money too.
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post #11 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like the Klipsch RB-61 are only sold in pairs @ ~$550/pr ($1100 total)
The Chane speakers are sold individually @ ~$350/ea ($1050 total)

It seems as though the Chane speakers offer better audio quality, and despite the higher price, they are $50 less than the Klipsch since I need to buy those as a pair.

I like those Chane subs too! Ack, SVS or Chane subs?!

Surrounds, still use a whole bunch of JBL 8320? Why not use a whole bunch of Chane Theater 10s? I love JBL, I 20yr old towers are JBLs, and they have been great!

3x Chane 10 (FR, FL, Center) = $1050
4x Chane 10 (Side/Rear Surrounds) = $1400
2x Chane 18"/SVS PB2000 = $1500
Total: $3950

3x Chane 10 (FR, FL, Center) = $1050
2x Pairs JBL 8320 = $1000
2x Chane 18"/SVS PB2000 = $1500
Total: $3550

The JBL surrounds keep me in budget, but if the sound quality will be better with the Chane's, then I could eek out another couple hundred dollars.

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post #12 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 12:02 PM
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The Theater 10s are pretty big for surrounds, the JBLs work nicely because they are more shallow, and have the angled cabinets to point them at the listening position. I think either way it would work well, I would probably use the JBLs for surrounds, just because they are more discrete. They are still THX certified however and will sound great.

As Kini pointed out, the Chane subs will probably have higher output above 20Hz, but being a sealed design will fall behind the PBs at the real low frequencies. I would probably go with the passive Chane subs and one of these amps: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NU6000DSP/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=livesound&utm_term=inuke_nu6000dsp&adpos=1t2&creative=14165830441&device=c&network=g&matchtype=b&gclid=CNf9_tOQ2b0CFWdk7Aodo0AArQ

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post #13 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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That amp scares me, both in terms of power and it looks. I might have to read a manual to figure out how to set it up! biggrin.gif

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post #14 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 01:43 PM
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It takes a lot more power to produce low frequencies, but that amp is nice because has DSP so you can fine tune everything without having to buy an extra device. The benefit of subs like SVS is everything is done for you, you just let Audyssey do it's thing. Passive subs like this take a little more setup to get them sounding good, but if you look at the dedicated theater threads, I would wager 4/5 people use multiple big sealed subs.

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post #15 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 01:49 PM
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Assuming an 8' ceiling height and that the room can be closed off to the rest of the house, you're dealing with 2800^3 feet. So not really a large room. A pair of the Chane sealed subs and either of the amps they sell or the one recommended by transman would have provide a LOT of output in that room. You would also get a decent amount of room gain down low. You likely would have good output into the mid teens.

The JBLs recommended seem to be one the best bargains around. I've yet to read anything bad about them.

All of this is making me want to upgrade to what we are recommending. Dang. I just bought new speakers. eek.gif

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post #16 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I think finished space will be closer to 2500^3ft biggrin.gif

I'm leaning towards the sealed subs. Eyeing a pair of the SVS SB-2000 with that beast of an amp. Still 12", but I think the bass from two of them should fill the room nicely biggrin.gif

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post #17 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post

I think finished space will be closer to 2500^3ft biggrin.gif

I'm leaning towards the sealed subs. Eyeing a pair of the SVS SB-2000 with that beast of an amp. Still 12", but I think the bass from two of them should fill the room nicely biggrin.gif

Those SVS subs are active, meaning they have an amp already so you wouldn't need anything else. The Chane subs are passive, so you need external amplification, aka the iNuke that I linked.

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post #18 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 02:38 PM
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Those SVS subs are active, meaning they have an amp already so you wouldn't need anything else. The Chane subs are passive, so you need external amplification, aka the iNuke that I linked.

Agreed. Also, the older version of those Chane subs had a very steep rolloff that can require some sophisticated EQ in some rooms to get smoothed out (not sure about the new model). The SVS will be more "plug and play."
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post #19 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

Those SVS subs are active, meaning they have an amp already so you wouldn't need anything else. The Chane subs are passive, so you need external amplification, aka the iNuke that I linked.

I had JUST figured that out as I was writing up notes for myself biggrin.gif

Was also reading that Ported is great for movies and good for music, and Sealed is good for music, and crappy for movies. Couple people suggested a single good sealed sub and buttkickers to make up the diff.

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post #20 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
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Was also reading that Ported is great for movies and good for music, and Sealed is good for music, and crappy for movies.

That's an overgeneralization that is based on a limited understanding of subs (or an extreme basshead agenda). It's way more complicated than that (lol).

In 2500 cubic feet of room (assuming the room is sealed and not open to other rooms), some of the advantages of ported subs for movies will be minimized.

Here is a review of the SB12-NSD, the predecessor of the SB-2000. Note that the listening tests were conducted in a 4,000 cubic ft room: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/sb12-nsd-listening At the end of the review, you'll see that they recommend one for rooms 1500 to 3000 cubic feet.

The SB-2000 has a bit better low end extension and a little more maximum output. Combine that with dual SB-2000s in 2500 cubic feet, and the bass performance for movies would be a good bit enhanced.

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post #21 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 03:41 PM
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The advantages of ported subs are not minimized in a small room. A small room can shore up deep frequencies from subs, but a ported sub will always have the extra headroom from its ports. A small sealed sub will always struggle in deep bass, even in a small room, unless the volume is low. For anyone interested in loud deep frequencies, ported always makes the most sense, even in small rooms.
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post #22 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
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That's an overgeneralization that is based on a limited understanding of subs (or an extreme basshead agenda). It's way more complicated than that (lol).

Indeed. I have never ... EVER ... heard that a Seaton SubMersive was "crappy" for movies, even for the vast majority of bassheads wink.gif. The same can be said for other sealed subwoofers such as the Gotham G213 and Fathom F212, the Paradigm Sub 1, the ... well, you get the idea.
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post #23 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I shopped around prices, and I think I have settled on my speakers...

FRONT: Klipsch RB-61II (1 Pair)
CENTER: Klipsch RB-61II (1 Pair)
SURROUND: Klipsch RS-52II (4x)
BASS: SVS PB-2000 (2x)

I'm a little over my budget, but not too bad smile.gif

Now, since the RB-61 comes as a pair, could I set two next to each other for the center and split the signal?

Lastly, if I were to do presence speakers (9.2 or 11.2 setup), would I want to use something like the RS-52, or something different like a RB-41

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post #24 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 09:07 PM
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You do not want to use two speakers as a center, that would have a bad effect on the sound and also present a very heavy load on your receiver. And no, you do not want to use RS speakers for any extraneous channels past a simple pair of surrounds. In fact, you do not even want to use RS speakers as back surrounds, as doing so will defeat the point of having both a side surround and back surround speaker channels. The ideal surround sound system is identical speakers for all channels for the best sound. Bipole and dipole designs for surrounds and a toppled MTM design for the center were only ever released as a compromise, a compromise for convenience of typical consumer sound systems at the expense of sound quality. If you can afford identical speakers for all channels, do so. I would just get seven or nine RB-61s, or however many you want. It will be cheaper and sound better. Nice subs though.
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post #25 of 35 Old 04-11-2014, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You do not want to use two speakers as a center, that would have a bad effect on the sound and also present a very heavy load on your receiver. And no, you do not want to use RS speakers for any extraneous channels past a simple pair of surrounds. In fact, you do not even want to use RS speakers as back surrounds, as doing so will defeat the point of having both a side surround and back surround speaker channels. The ideal surround sound system is identical speakers for all channels for the best sound. Bipole and dipole designs for surrounds and a toppled MTM design for the center were only ever released as a compromise, a compromise for convenience of typical consumer sound systems at the expense of sound quality. If you can afford identical speakers for all channels, do so. I would just get seven or nine RB-61s, or however many you want. It will be cheaper and sound better. Nice subs though.

If that is the case, then all RB-61s is actually a bit cheaper. Maybe I'll hop up to RB-81s biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
My last set of quality speakers have last me over 20 years, I want to ensure I get similar usage out of the next set biggrin.gif

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post #26 of 35 Old 04-13-2014, 07:26 AM
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This is a "dedicated" room, right?
How much budget do you have allocated to manage you speaker/room acoustic interactions?
Please do not overlook that, so many people spend $$$$ on speakers without considering that.


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post #27 of 35 Old 04-13-2014, 09:06 AM
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I think this would make a nice setup. Not sure how much it would cost you though.

FRONT: Klipsch RB-81 II
CENTER: Klipsch RC-62 II
SIDE SURROUND: Klipsch RB-61 II
BACK SURROUND: Klipsch RB-51 II
SUBWOOFER: SVS PB-2000 (2x)

I own RB-81 II and am very happy with Klipsch's sound. They create wide soundstage with extreme details in the upper frequency range, they're also very punchy and can go pretty deep for bookshelf speakers. Horns make a huge difference. They're heaven sent.
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post #28 of 35 Old 04-13-2014, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

This is a "dedicated" room, right?
How much budget do you have allocated to manage you speaker/room acoustic interactions?
Please do not overlook that, so many people spend $$$$ on speakers without considering that.

I'm working on that now. I would like to isolate the room, but cooling it it proving to be a challenge at the moment.

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post #29 of 35 Old 04-13-2014, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highd3f View Post

I think this would make a nice setup. Not sure how much it would cost you though.

FRONT: Klipsch RB-81 II
CENTER: Klipsch RC-62 II
SIDE SURROUND: Klipsch RB-61 II
BACK SURROUND: Klipsch RB-51 II
SUBWOOFER: SVS PB-2000 (2x)

I own RB-81 II and am very happy with Klipsch's sound. They create wide soundstage with extreme details in the upper frequency range, they're also very punchy and can go pretty deep for bookshelf speakers. Horns make a huge difference. They're heaven sent.

ShadyJ suggested that all speakers should be identical if possible, and that a vertical center is prefered over a horizontal.
I like your thoughts, and I am curious how important getting COMPLETELY matching speakers (ie 7x RB-81 II) vs getting 3x 81s, 2x 61s, and 2x 51s is.

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post #30 of 35 Old 04-13-2014, 09:59 PM
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The front soundstage is most critical, and using three exact same speakers across the front is optimal, THE best solution.

It is definitely much less important for the rears and surrounds to be the same.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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