Speaker size to match room volume - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:27 AM
Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post


I calibrate the sub using an SPL meter and the MCACC in the AVR. The room the sub is in now is smaller than the room it used to be in. I wonder if there's something wrong with the sub itself?

You are using the LFE input (Right-channel) only on the sub?

 

And very important; that you have set the LFE/Normal switch to LFE!


HT: CLASSE CA-5300 DELTA - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - DENON 4520CI - B&W 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2, SA Talent - VAN DEN HUL - GIK ACOUSTICS - AUDYSSEY Pro Kit - SAMSUNG ES8005 46" - MAC Mini Late 2012 i7/16GB/SSD - SYNOLOGY NAS 50TB
HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor) - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p
Berland is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post

Could it be a difference in signal strengts from the LFE-output of the Pioneer SC67 is a lot lower then your previous AVR? There are no standards here - try pushing volume up on the sub itself.

Your sub should be more than enough to make the room shake... so that is not it.

I'm leaning toward an issue with the calibration in MCACC. Cancellation could be an issue too. I am going to try moving the sub, test that, then re-run the MCACC. Perhaps poor EQ settings could cause the bass issues.....
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #33 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Here's what to look for when calibrating the subwoofer. The subwoofer trim level should be as close to zero as possible in the AVR. Set the gain on the back of the sub to get between 75db-80db with the test tone. Don't try to fix this with EQ. I disagree with comment about the sub being able to pressurize that room . It's to small to be able to have a visceral impact.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #34 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post

You are using the LFE input (Right-channel) only on the sub?

And very important; that you have set the LFE/Normal switch to LFE!


Using the right input, switch is at LFE, yes.
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #35 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bi-amping the A9's isn't causing issues, is it?
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #36 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:36 AM
Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post


Using the right input, switch is at LFE, yes.

Good, and if you get a lot of bass-peaks from the corner. The calibration could "fix" this by reducing the sub level by 10-15 dB. Also important as mentioned here to have the sub play around 80 dB before doing calibration (then the AVR should have sub-channel adjusted to 0 dB, calibrate this by using volume on the sub itself. A good indicator to see if it is too high or low is the see level of sub on AVR post calibration... if it is set -10 or +10; adjust volumne on sub accordingly.

 

Edit:

Also keep crossover to max (150 Hz adjustment on sub) and phase to 0 (switch on sub).

 

Edit2:

When all this is verified; try moving the sub between left or right front-speaker and center (facing main listening position)... Corner usually gives more bass, but could create massive peaks that effectively turns the sub "off" to adjust for this during calibration.


HT: CLASSE CA-5300 DELTA - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - DENON 4520CI - B&W 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2, SA Talent - VAN DEN HUL - GIK ACOUSTICS - AUDYSSEY Pro Kit - SAMSUNG ES8005 46" - MAC Mini Late 2012 i7/16GB/SSD - SYNOLOGY NAS 50TB
HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor) - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p
Berland is offline  
post #37 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
It's not causing the issue but bi amping your speakers like that is doing absolutely nothing.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #38 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post

Here's what to look for when calibrating the subwoofer. The subwoofer trim level should be as close to zero as possible in the AVR. Set the gain on the back of the sub to get between 75db-80db with the test tone. Don't try to fix this with EQ. I disagree with comment about the sub being able to pressurize that room . It's to small to be able to have a visceral impact.

I don't understand how it was so effective in a really big room but so ineffective in a smaller room? It wasn't that bad with my old Denon either, it's been MIA ever since I installed the SC-67.
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #39 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post

It's not causing the issue but bi amping your speakers like that is doing absolutely nothing.

Thank you! Darn good to know, I didn't hear a difference. Seemed like a waste of current to me!
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #40 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berland View Post

Good, and if you get a lot of bass-peaks from the corner. The calibration could "fix" this by reducing the sub level by 10-15 dB. Also important as mentioned here to have the sub play around 80 dB before doing calibration (then the AVR should have sub-channel adjusted to 0 dB, calibrate this by using volume on the sub itself. A good indicator to see if it is too high or low is the see level of sub on AVR post calibration... if it is set -10 or +10; adjust volumne on sub accordingly.

Edit:
Also keep crossover to max (150 Hz adjustment on sub) and phase to 0 (switch on sub).

Edit2:
When all this is verified; try moving the sub between left or right front-speaker and center (facing main listening position)... Corner usually gives more bass, but could create massive peaks that effectively turns the sub "off" to adjust for this during calibration.

Another interesting bit using MCACC....I had the trim on the sub set at 11:00, but MCACC always adjusted the sub level down to -8, but also set the sub distance to like 19 feet away all the time.....
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #41 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

I don't understand how it was so effective in a really big room but so ineffective in a smaller room? It wasn't that bad with my old Denon either, it's been MIA ever since I installed the SC-67.

This is probably due to a difference in the calibration that you're using between the two different AVR's and the different rooms. The smaller room should have more bass impact using the same subwoofer as long as you have the sub trim settings right and the sub placed properly. It's also possible that you have a phase issue between your mains and the subwoofer. You may need to manipulate the subwoofer distance settings to manipulate the time alignment between those speakers. The settings to get the time alignment right at the main listing position is not always the actual distance.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #42 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post

This is probably due to a difference in the calibration that you're using between the two different AVR's and the different rooms. The smaller room should have more bass impact using the same subwoofer as long as you have the sub trim settings right and the sub placed properly. It's also possible that you have a phase issue between your mains and the subwoofer. You may need to manipulate the subwoofer distance settings to manipulate the time alignment between those speakers. The settings to get the time alignment right at the main listing position is not always the actual distance.


The MCACC should be doing this for me, no?
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #43 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:49 AM
Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post


Another interesting bit using MCACC....I had the trim on the sub set at 11:00, but MCACC always adjusted the sub level down to -8, but also set the sub distance to like 19 feet away all the time.....

Distance to sub is often set larger than it in reality is, reason for this is processing time inside the sub (the calibration measures time for signal from it is sent out from AVR to it is received in the microphone). But 19 feet seem kind of brutal, could this be due to corner reflection tricking the calibration system. Again, try moving it between center and one of the two front speakers to see if this got effect. -8 indicates that the volume of sub is to high before calibration; turn it down to 09:30 :)


HT: CLASSE CA-5300 DELTA - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - DENON 4520CI - B&W 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2, SA Talent - VAN DEN HUL - GIK ACOUSTICS - AUDYSSEY Pro Kit - SAMSUNG ES8005 46" - MAC Mini Late 2012 i7/16GB/SSD - SYNOLOGY NAS 50TB
HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor) - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p
Berland is offline  
post #44 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

Another interesting bit using MCACC....I had the trim on the sub set at 11:00, but MCACC always adjusted the sub level down to -8, but also set the sub distance to like 19 feet away all the time.....

That means that you have the gain on the subwoofer to high. You need to turn it down until you get a reading close to zero on the subwoofer AVR trim. You can test the 19ft measurement by setting it closer and further away and see if the bass comes together. Play a song that you know very well and move the distance setting around and see if that improves the sound.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #45 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Gentlemen, can't thank you enough, solid advice. Will try all that as soon as I can. When I redo my calibration, should I leave the crossover at 80 and set the A9's to Large or Small?
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #46 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 08:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

Gentlemen, can't thank you enough, solid advice. Will try all that as soon as I can. When I redo my calibration, should I leave the crossover at 80 and set the A9's to Large or Small?
Set to small you have those huge speakers that are capable of delivering lots of output down to 25Hz or so doing nothing below 80Hz. That's the epitome of illogical. If you're going to use a sub at all it should be in conjunction with the mains, placed where it will smooth out the response null that you have at the LP, which means probably at the rear of the room.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #47 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Set to small you have those huge speakers that are capable of delivering lots of output down to 25Hz or so doing nothing below 80Hz. That's the epitome of illogical. If you're going to use a sub at all it should be in conjunction with the mains, placed where it will smooth out the response null that you have at the LP, which means probably at the rear of the room.


I've actually tried the back of the room, and I think it's a black hole back there. No real audible difference between the sub being on or off when it's placed at the back of the room. Looks like it's sub crawl time again!
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #48 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
And is the SC-67 enough to do those speakers justice? Should I be looking at external amplification?
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #49 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 08:23 AM
Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

Gentlemen, can't thank you enough, solid advice. Will try all that as soon as I can. When I redo my calibration, should I leave the crossover at 80 and set the A9's to Large or Small?

Set to SMALL, everyone creating the calibration systems recommend this. You can set the crossover for the fronts down later; do it in incremental steps and listen until you are happy.


HT: CLASSE CA-5300 DELTA - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - DENON 4520CI - B&W 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2, SA Talent - VAN DEN HUL - GIK ACOUSTICS - AUDYSSEY Pro Kit - SAMSUNG ES8005 46" - MAC Mini Late 2012 i7/16GB/SSD - SYNOLOGY NAS 50TB
HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor) - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p
Berland is offline  
post #50 of 55 Old 04-19-2014, 08:24 AM
Member
 
Berland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

And is the SC-67 enough to do those speakers justice? Should I be looking at external amplification?

If you set crossover to 80Hz, the SC-67 will not be an issue. You need double power to drive them down to 40Hz compared to 80Hz :)


HT: CLASSE CA-5300 DELTA - BRYSTON 4B SST2 - DENON 4520CI - B&W 803D2, 2*DB1, HTM2D2, 804D2, Nautilus SCM1, 805D2, SA Talent - VAN DEN HUL - GIK ACOUSTICS - AUDYSSEY Pro Kit - SAMSUNG ES8005 46" - MAC Mini Late 2012 i7/16GB/SSD - SYNOLOGY NAS 50TB
HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor) - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p
Berland is offline  
post #51 of 55 Old 04-20-2014, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Okay, sub was moved to about 3 feet from the side wall, still up against the front wall though, not enough floor space to put the sub 2 feet from the front wall. RTi's installed near the corners of the room, again, due to space constraints and maximize separation. Did a complete MCACC calibration, will update with results. Crossover is set to 80 and the mains are set to large.
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #52 of 55 Old 04-20-2014, 02:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Secret Squirrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest U.S.A.
Posts: 2,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Good luck. Let us know the results.
Secret Squirrel is offline  
post #53 of 55 Old 04-20-2014, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My MCACC calibration has turned all the levels down below 0. Am I compromising the calibration by upping all the levels by the same amount? Output is pretty quiet as a result.
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #54 of 55 Old 05-06-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
EmulousTrigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Okay, recalibrated MCACC, moved speakers around, moved the sub and it's much improved. However one weird thing is happening.....I was watching Star Wars and my wife upstairs was complaining that the bass was too high, but in the room it felt like there was none and it didn't sound that loud. Normally when there is a lot of bass you can tell by hearing it that people in the house are going to hear and feel it. Not so much the case with me now. Thoughts?
EmulousTrigger is offline  
post #55 of 55 Old 05-06-2014, 07:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmulousTrigger View Post

Okay, recalibrated MCACC, moved speakers around, moved the sub and it's much improved. However one weird thing is happening.....I was watching Star Wars and my wife upstairs was complaining that the bass was too high, but in the room it felt like there was none and it didn't sound that loud. Normally when there is a lot of bass you can tell by hearing it that people in the house are going to hear and feel it. Not so much the case with me now. Thoughts?
Cancellation, which is the product of the distances between the sub and you, the sub and room boundaries, and you and the room boundaries. You have major cancellation nulls at your LP. Since she's in a different room she's not in the cancellation zone. It's difficult, if not impossible, not to have major cancellation nulls at the LP with only one sub.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off