Please advise! Boston A250/A225/A25 or Pioneer SP-PK52FS/C22/BS22 or Infinity Primus P163/P251/P153 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 25 Old 05-01-2014, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Hello,

 

Please advise, I am looking for a new speaker setup.

- The room size is about 500 square feet also I won't be able to use room treatment.

- What I do care about is the sound quality of music, movies are not so important to me, but I do need 5.1 as this is the only setup in the house. I listen to various types of music ranging from Jazz and Classics to Hip-Hop and Hardcore.

- I prefer the sound to be as close as possible (in this price range) to the unaltered sound aimed by the performer and the recording engineers.

- I am considering all options - new, refurbished or used gear.

- I live in a country where I do not have the chance to listen to any gear before buying. I have to order everything over the internet and get friends living in the UK or US ship it to me. I know about the warranty.

 

So far, I am looking at 3 possible setups in my price range:

1. Boston A225 center + Boston A250 mains pair + Boston A25 surround pair+ a sub matching the timber of these

2. Pioneer SP-PK52FS 5.0 + a sub matching the timber of these

3. Infinity Primus P163/P251/P153 + a sub matching the timber of these

 

I need advice on the sub-woofer too - which sub to get for music and to match the timber of the choice you advise?

Just from what I have read so far, I am leaning towards AJ's PK52FS, but which sub to get for them I lack the experience and the info to choose the correct match myself!

 

In addition, is there any setup that is more expensive (but not too much) worthy the additional price? Advice on all other options and generally any advice is very welcome.

 

Thanks in advance!

Y.K.

Yanec is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Thanks for all the answers bellow to everybody!

Yanec is online now  
post #3 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 06:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

Any help, anybody?

None of them are bad - However, I would prefer the Boston set

Your call
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #4 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Ziglj01, Thanks for your answer! Any particular reasons why you would prefer the Boston over the Pioneer? Which "musical" sub would match the Bostons well?

Yanec is online now  
post #5 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 07:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,297
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Subwoofers do not timber match the speakers.

What is your budget for a subwoofer? The options vary depending on how much you can spend.
Yanec likes this.
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #6 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 07:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

Ziglj01, Thanks for your answer! Any particular reasons why you would prefer the Boston over the Pioneer? Which "musical" sub would match the Bostons well?

Pioneer is good and better than some - however, there is only so much
that the driver/speakers can give

No bad choices on your list.

If you have the budget - then look at the SVS SB-1000 sub (sealed)
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/SB-1000#.U2OxAPldUxo

Or, Reaction Audio BPS-212 subwoofer
http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/products/bps-212-turbo-powered-subwoofer
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #7 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

crazyrob425 Thanks for the clarification! I am just trying to get everything right. My budget for the sub is $400, absolute maximum $500.

Yanec is online now  
post #8 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Thanks again zieglj01!

 

I will check these subs out! One more question - what are the differences in overall sound signature between the Pioneer and the Boston set? The reason I liked the Pioneers is online reviews saying how neutral they are is the Boston also neutral just better in terms of the drives used? I am double checking as I will not have the chance to listen before I buy and it is not cheap to ship and return such a package.

Any other suggested options around this price?

Thanks for all your help!

Yanec is online now  
post #9 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 08:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

Thanks again zieglj01!

I will check these subs out! One more question - what are the differences in overall sound signature between the Pioneer and the Boston set? The reason I liked the Pioneers is online reviews saying how neutral they are is the Boston also neutral just better in terms of the drives used?

I have owned the Pioneer speakers and some Infinity Primus speakers.
I have owned several Boston speakers, however not the current A ones.
Based on the former CR and CS Boston speakers, I prefer them over
the Pioneer and Infinity Primus series. The Boston A series is a re-work
of their budget entry lines - and their reviews have been good - they are
more positive over the CS and CR series.

Boston's sound signature, tends to be robust and vivid, with-out being
forward, sharp or aggressive in nature - and they are not laid back.

Do not base your choice/decision on me, or anyone else - we can not
guarantee you, how a speaker will sound to your ears. Also, you tend to
have a bigger than average room - and you stated that there will be no
room treatments.

The Boston A250 will be able to take some power, and they are built
good for the price.

Depending on your max budget for 5.1 - I may have more recommendations.
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #10 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post


I have owned the Pioneer speakers and some Infinity Primus speakers.
I have owned several Boston speakers, however not the current A ones.
Based on the former CR and CS Boston speakers, I prefer them over
the Pioneer and Infinity Primus series. The Boston A series is a re-work
of their budget entry lines - and their reviews have been good - they are
more positive over the CS and CR series.

Boston's sound signature, tends to be robust and vivid, with-out being
forward, sharp or aggressive in nature - and they are not laid back.

Do not base your choice/decision on me, or anyone else - we can not
guarantee you, how a speaker will sound to your ears. Also, you tend to
have a bigger than average room - and you stated that there will be no
room treatments.

The Boston A250 will be able to take some power, and they are built
good for the price.

Depending on your max budget for 5.1 - I may have more recommendations.

You are really helpful - this really adds value to my future choice given the situation that I can't check these out initially!!

 

My budget is about $1500 for the 5.0 plus the sub, without the shipping and customs. If there are any really good sets up to 2k I might find some additional budget as I buy speakers once in 10 years so I want to get the maximum bang for the buck.

 

One thing I really dream of hearing in closer to natural sound is piano - it sounds so flat and artificial with cheap ht systems

Yanec is online now  
post #11 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elihawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 2,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 165
A ported sub will give you more Umph, and maybe hit lower (so better for HT in a big room)...sealed subs typically don't get quite as loud and won't hit quite as low, but maybe have better accuracy/fidelity. For music mostly, I think a sealed sub is the way to go. The SVS SB1000 might be a great start...499.00 shipped from SVS!
Yanec likes this.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
Elihawk is offline  
post #12 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 09:12 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

My budget is about $1500 for the 5.0 plus the sub, without the shipping and customs. If there are any really good sets up to 2k I might find some additional budget as I buy speakers once in 10 years so I want to get the maximum bang for the buck.

One thing I really dream of hearing in closer to natural sound is piano - it sounds so flat and artificial with cheap ht systems

If you have room to do a vertical bookshelf center - then I would look at
Monitor Audio Silver RX-1 speakers >>> they will have good detail and
definition, and do a real good job for music - and can handle HT

2 pair will be $1000 - use 1 each as a center channel and keep a spare,
it would be worth it. 3 pair is $1500
Black is sold out - still have Rosenut and Walnut
http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/monitor_special.htm

You can always buy some budget surrounds - and do music in 2.1
or 3.1 mode
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/focalsibprblk/focal-sib-5-2-way-satellite-loudspeakers-pair-gloss-black/1.html

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #13 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

A ported sub will give you more Umph, and maybe hit lower (so better for HT in a big room)...sealed subs typically don't get quite as loud and won't hit quite as low, but maybe have better accuracy/fidelity. For music mostly, I think a sealed sub is the way to go. The SVS SB1000 might be a great start...499.00 shipped from SVS!


I have been looking at several subs suggested here and from online reviews:

 

SVS SB100

Reaction Audio BPS-212

Dayton Audio 1200

Acoustech PL200

BIC F12

HSU - if I find a model fitting my budget and needs

 

Any suggestions on these - which should I skip, which should I consider further?

 

Thanks!

Yanec is online now  
post #14 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 09:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
I would aim for the $500 line of subwoofers

Also, if you like that Piano - and if you can handle the looks >
The JBL Studio 530, is one of the best musical speakers that
I have owned for the price
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-530-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B00622STI0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399047576&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+530

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-520CBK-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00622SUHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399047813&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+520
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #15 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

I would aim for the $500 line of subwoofers

Also, if you like that Piano - and if you can handle the looks >
The JBL Studio 530, is one of the best musical speakers that
I have owned for the price
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-530-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B00622STI0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399047576&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+530

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-520CBK-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00622SUHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399047813&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+studio+520


So this gives me the following options so far, totaling a budget a bit over $1500:

 

For the 5.0

 

1. Boston A225 center + Boston A250 mains pair + Boston A25 surround pair

2. JBL Studio 530 x 4 + JBL center 520

3. Monitor Audio RX1 x 4 + some center - which should I go for?

 

For the LFE:

 

1. HSU VTF-1 MK2

2. Reaction Audio BPS 212 Turbo

3. SVS SB 1000

 

Any combinations you would prefer out of these options?

 

Thank you so much once again!!!

Yanec is online now  
post #16 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Elihawk Would the HSU VTF-1 MK2 be a good choice too or the SVS is preferable? Thanks!

Yanec is online now  
post #17 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 10:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
My preference is >

(1) the JBL
(2) the Monitor Audio

No, hands-down winner between the 2

Subwoofer on sale till May 8th >

Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html

If you do not buy Outlaw - then I lean towards >
Reaction Audio, or SVS
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #18 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
crazyrob425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,297
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 171
An amazing deal right now for the next week is the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. It normally sells for $600 plus shipping, but they are selling it this week for $500 shipped.

If I had $500 to spend on a subwoofer that is what I would go with. Its an great deal at its price point right now

The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is similar to the HSU VTF-2 (just a different port location)
Yanec likes this.
crazyrob425 is offline  
post #19 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Thanks! The Outlaw is a bit oversize next to my "Provence" style white furniture and I will be buying in 30 days, so I will miss the promotion. But it really seems to have great reviews and to be a practical solution in terms of placement options in an unevenly furnished room as mine.

 

I will take your advise on the JBLs since you owned the Pioneers and other speakers noted here and find these more musical. I would guess they do not have problems with the mids as you said they do justice to the piano. I will do some more reading and "comparing" on the Reaction Audio 212 Turbo and the SVS SB100 so I can choose one of these that matches jazz and classics better.

 

You made my day thanks!

Y.K.

Yanec is online now  
post #20 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 11:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

I will take your advise on the JBLs since you owned the Pioneers and other speakers noted here and find these more musical. I would guess they do not have problems with the mids as you said they do justice to the piano.

I like the Piano, Violin, Guitar, Saxophone, and Trumpet - and the JBL
does a good job with these and voices - plus the JBL has good bass.

Enjoy the Adventure.
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #21 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post


I like the Piano, Violin, Guitar, Saxophone, and Trumpet - and the JBL
does a good job with these and voices - plus the JBL has good bass.

Enjoy the Adventure.


Thank you! The adventure actually just begins and I believe it will be full of learning but even more of audio pleasure. Any advice on the available Mordaunt, they seem to have excellent prices, or should I stop wondering and stick with the Studio 530? : http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmordaunt&_nkw=mordaunt&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Yanec is online now  
post #22 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 12:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

Any advice on the available Mordaunt, they seem to have excellent prices, or should I stop wondering and stick with the Studio 530? : http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmordaunt&_nkw=mordaunt&_sacat=0&_from=R40

I can not speak for the Mordaunt Short Mezzo - however, the word
is good on them. I would not go lower than their Mezzo line.

As far as wondering around - that is up to you.
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #23 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post


I can not speak for the Mordaunt Short Mezzo - however, the word
is good on them. I would not go lower than their Mezzo line.

As far as wondering around - that is up to you.


Now I have read thru all available reviews and I am definitely going for a pair of these! I am really grateful that you suggested these.Now there is one problem - I just checked can't physically fit a rear pair of these in my room, what speakers can match in timber the Studio 530 for 5.1 DSD / SACD music and for movies?  Will the JBL Studio 130 be a match? Also will it be OK to fit the Studio 520 above the 50" TV - there is no way to get it under it or in front of it given my furniture.

Yanec is online now  
post #24 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 06:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,839
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanec View Post

Now I have read thru all available reviews and I am definitely going for a pair of these! I am really grateful that you suggested these.Now there is one problem - I just checked can't physically fit a rear pair of these in my room, what speakers can match in timber the Studio 530 for 5.1 DSD / SACD music and for movies?  Will the JBL Studio 130 be a match? Also will it be OK to fit the Studio 520 above the 50" TV - there is no way to get it under it or in front of it given my furniture.
Only the Studio 5 series will timbre match with each other - however, the Studio 130
or Studio 220 for surrounds will be close..

You can put the Studio 520 center above the TV, if you can angle it down towards
your head
Yanec likes this.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #25 of 25 Old 05-02-2014, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Yanec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

Only the Studio 5 series will timbre match with each other - however, the Studio 130

or Studio 220 for surrounds will be close..


You can put the Studio 520 center above the TV, if you can angle it down towards

your head


I hope good room correction software ( I am also buying an AVR - can use recommendation) will help get the 130 closer to the 520 as it is the only surround speaker that will fit my room and I hope 5.1 music will not suffer...many hopes smile.gif

Thanks for all your help and have a great day/evening!
Y.K.
Yanec is online now  
Reply Speakers
Gear in this thread - A250 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off