Surround speakers at ear-level: acceptable? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 05-11-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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How is this for a 5.4 setup?

ZtIfU4c.jpg

Basically, I have 4 subwoofers in each corner of the home theater with the left/right front speakers and the left/right surround speakers placed on top of the subwoofers. The surround speakers will be angled towards the seating position. Even though I have not illustrated it, the front left/right speakers will also be slightly toed-in.

Questions:

1. Could I fit in back surround speakers for a 7.4? I am assuming no because with a 7.x setup, the left/right surround speakers should be in front of the left/right back surround speakers (i.e. all four surround speakers in a 7.x setup should not be against the back wall).

2. Would 4 subwoofers be too many for a room of this size? If not, is their placement acceptable (even though I don't have any other option for placing them)?

3. Is it okay to have the surround speakers at ear-level (more so having the tweeter in the surround speakers at ear-level)?
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post #2 of 33 Old 05-11-2014, 07:18 PM
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4 subs?? damn what are they? shake your house apart haha

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post #3 of 33 Old 05-11-2014, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeman0535 View Post

4 subs?? damn what are they? shake your house apart haha

4 subs isn't for making the max volume higher (although it might do so by about 10db). The purpose of 4 subs is to improve the probability that more listening positions (or the main listening position) will get an even frequency response. Anyone who loves bass in movies or bass would benefit from 3-4 subwoofers. A single subwoofer can be placed to optimize one listening position but even that may not be fully possible without a second sub.

Lookup "subwoofer crawl" for more info about multi-subwoofer purpose.

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post #4 of 33 Old 05-12-2014, 03:20 AM
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Yea I know..i was just thinking how awesome that would sound. Id love to hear that. Best I've heard is 2 subs w/a home theater.
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post #5 of 33 Old 05-12-2014, 08:53 AM
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Youd need at least 4ft behind you get any benefit from two rear surrounds, i dont know how much room you have. Technically 5.1 has the left/right surround 90-110 degrees and but since you have them already 2-3 feet behind you its kinda like you have 7.1 but missing the side surrounds heh

You might be able to move the couch up even more, then youll be in the "golden sub spot" of 38% of the room. Itll be a tight squeeze on the sides though.

I hope you have some wall treatments with all that sound bouncing around.
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post #6 of 33 Old 05-12-2014, 11:54 AM
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One set of surrounds at ear level, and another set about 4-5feet higher for a "height" layer sounds really awesome. Even without the extra channels on the soundtrack it sounds great just replicating the channels below.

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post #7 of 33 Old 05-12-2014, 12:17 PM
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Are you unable to wall-mount the surround speakers?


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post #8 of 33 Old 05-12-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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All speakers will be Seaton Sound. And no, I cannot wall-mount the surround speakers because one of the sides of the room has a door (with the current arrangement pictured in my illustration). If I flip the room, one side has a large built-in closet and the other side has a tall curtain. That long table-like thing extending in the diagram is actually the built-in closet.
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post #9 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the surround speakers in movies mastered with the thought in mind that they will be placed above ear-level? If yes, does placing them at ear-level "degrade" the surround effect intended by the sound designers?
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post #10 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 12:44 PM
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I think the idea behind placing the speakers above ear level is that it reduces the path length difference if one is listening off center. That reduces the tendency of one of the surround speakers to dominate the localization perception.

That aside, unfortunately you most likely not see much benefit from the surround speakers at the locations you are proposing. There is research that shows that incident angles greater than about 120 degrees don't contribute much to perceptions of spaciousness.

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post #11 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

I think the idea behind placing the speakers above ear level is that it reduces the path length difference if one is listening off center. That reduces the tendency of one of the surround speakers to dominate the localization perception.

That aside, unfortunately you most likely not see much benefit from the surround speakers at the locations you are proposing. There is research that shows that incident angles greater than about 120 degrees don't contribute much to perceptions of spaciousness.

Thanks. You state that surround speakers in a 5.x setup should not be at an angle greater than 120 degrees. However, how come in an IMAX theater (which I think are all 5.1), the surround speakers are pretty much at the back wall slightly toed-in? Isn't that angle actually far greater than 120 degrees?
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post #12 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 01:41 PM
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Have you considered mounting them in the ceiling (in-walls, obviously)?


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post #13 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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My walls are concrete and the ceiling is too high (9-10 feet). Wiring them would be a chore. Plus, I'm not a fan of in-walls and, secondly, I have already decided on speakers.
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post #14 of 33 Old 05-14-2014, 03:31 PM
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I don't really know much about IMAX's sound set up, but the IMAX theater near me isn't as you describe.

I believe film soundtracks are remastered for IMAX anyway. That wouldn't be what you get from movies at home.

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post #15 of 33 Old 05-21-2014, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Just measured my surround speakers' angle (with a protractor) according to the seating position and it seems it will be exactly 120 degrees. This is acceptable, correct? My drawing is a little inaccurate in terms of representing the speaker placement.
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post #16 of 33 Old 05-21-2014, 11:24 AM
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That should be fine. Just mount then a foot above seated ear height and you will be golden.
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post #17 of 33 Old 05-21-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
3. Is it okay to have the surround speakers at ear-level (more so having the tweeter in the surround speakers at ear-level)?
IMO, yes.

I used to place my own surround speakers at the height recommended by Dolby Labs, but back in 2001 when I reconfigured my system for optimum playback of surround music (where I believe speaker placement, along with channel levels and timbre matching for example is much more critical as far as reproduction accuracy is concerned), I found with movies it also improved the surround sound experience. To my ears it was more involving & enveloping, and moving elements felt more "real". FYI: a pic of surround music speaker placement can be found by doing a web search using the phrase "ITU surround music speaker". *

Upon experiencing this effect, I realized I shouldn't be surprised because pretty much every photo I've seen of a soundtrack mixing room had their surround speakers at ear level (not to mention they always used direct-radiating speakers i.e. NOT dipolar or bipolar types). Of course I have not seen every mixing room, so that is not definitive proof of my placement choice but personally I like it better than above-ear mounted speakers.

Lastly, since many movies I've watched since the mid 90s or so use fully discrete SFX in the rear channels - cars, planes, people conversing, an alien walking up behind you - and not just "blurry" ambient effects, ear-level placement makes even more sense, to me anyway. This is partly why I began using larger speakers for surround use, models using at least a 6.5" woofer (and I believe for surround music you definitely need something with "guts" like that, even when a sub is used).



* for lots more info about this, go here and download the .pdf labeled "Recommendations for Surround Sound Productions" (there's a home playback speaker config pic on pg. 2-5). BTW there is still true surround music being released - the QuadraphonicQuad.com forum is one of the best places to learn more ----> true, to me anyway = not generated by software-based means like Dolby Pro-Logic, DTS-Neo, etc. but instead, a human manipulating a master recording's multitracks.
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post #18 of 33 Old 05-21-2014, 07:14 PM
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If you planning 6.4 or 7.4 and couch against the wall read this


http://www.homecinemaguru.com/how-to-make-7-1-or-6-1-surround-sound-work-when-your-couch-us-against-the-wall/

Energy RC 70 fronts
Energy RC LCR center
Energy RC LCR surrounds
Rythmik LV12R and Mirage Omni 12 subwoofers
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post #19 of 33 Old 05-23-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

IMO, yes.

I used to place my own surround speakers at the height recommended by Dolby Labs, but back in 2001 when I reconfigured my system for optimum playback of surround music (where I believe speaker placement, along with channel levels and timbre matching for example is much more critical as far as reproduction accuracy is concerned), I found with movies it also improved the surround sound experience. To my ears it was more involving & enveloping, and moving elements felt more "real". FYI: a pic of surround music speaker placement can be found by doing a web search using the phrase "ITU surround music speaker". *

Upon experiencing this effect, I realized I shouldn't be surprised because pretty much every photo I've seen of a soundtrack mixing room had their surround speakers at ear level (not to mention they always used direct-radiating speakers i.e. NOT dipolar or bipolar types). Of course I have not seen every mixing room, so that is not definitive proof of my placement choice but personally I like it better than above-ear mounted speakers.

Lastly, since many movies I've watched since the mid 90s or so use fully discrete SFX in the rear channels - cars, planes, people conversing, an alien walking up behind you - and not just "blurry" ambient effects, ear-level placement makes even more sense, to me anyway. This is partly why I began using larger speakers for surround use, models using at least a 6.5" woofer (and I believe for surround music you definitely need something with "guts" like that, even when a sub is used).



* for lots more info about this, go here and download the .pdf labeled "Recommendations for Surround Sound Productions" (there's a home playback speaker config pic on pg. 2-5). BTW there is still true surround music being released - the QuadraphonicQuad.com forum is one of the best places to learn more ----> true, to me anyway = not generated by software-based means like Dolby Pro-Logic, DTS-Neo, etc. but instead, a human manipulating a master recording's multitracks.

Thanks! According to that PDF, I can place surround speakers in a 5.1 setup at 110 to 150 degrees. 150 degress sounds like a lot however I measured my angle based on my predicted seating position and it seems it will be around 120 degrees. I think I should be fine. Plus, it will be at ear-level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

If you planning 6.4 or 7.4 and couch against the wall read this


http://www.homecinemaguru.com/how-to-make-7-1-or-6-1-surround-sound-work-when-your-couch-us-against-the-wall/

Thanks. Guess I'll stick to 5.x.
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post #20 of 33 Old 05-23-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

Upon experiencing this effect, I realized I shouldn't be surprised because pretty much every photo I've seen of a soundtrack mixing room had their surround speakers at ear level (not to mention they always used direct-radiating speakers i.e. NOT dipolar or bipolar types). Of course I have not seen every mixing room, so that is not definitive proof of my placement choice but personally I like it better than above-ear mounted speakers.
Every movie mixing room I have been in had the surrounds above ear level.

FWIW....Dolby suggests "just above ear level".

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/setup/connection-guide/home-theater-speaker-guide/index.html

For music...ear level is where you want it.
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post #21 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 07:19 PM
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If you want to do a dolby atmos in the future, i would do one layer at ear level, throw in some more wires for above ear level, and some ceiling speaker wiring. Its fairly easy to do all that once in most circumstances.

It is truly impressive how immersive 11.1 and beyond sounds and its good to keep higher speaker count options open for when you get the upgrade "itch".

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post #22 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

If you want to do a dolby atmos in the future, i would do one layer at ear level, throw in some more wires for above ear level, and some ceiling speaker wiring. Its fairly easy to do all that once in most circumstances.

It is truly impressive how immersive 11.1 and beyond sounds and its good to keep higher speaker count options open for when you get the upgrade "itch".

How would I add Dolby Atmos into a home theater? There are no consumer processors or consumer media that support it (unless I am wrong).
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post #23 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 03:39 PM
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How would I add Dolby Atmos into a home theater? There are no consumer processors or consumer media that support it (unless I am wrong).

Its coming possibly end of this year

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post #24 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 04:33 PM
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Hopefully the custom installer who designed the mega-dollar home theater described in this article got their math right. In any event, we might infer some "good practices" from the included graphics that are also applicable to somewhat more affordable installations:

Quote:


There are no direct references to either speaker (Azimuth|Elevation) angles or planned max SPL in this 1/9/2014 article in Residential Systems (link), "HomeTronics Designs First Home Theater for Voice of God Audio System", which includes some details of a "28.12" (speakers) high-end home setup for Auro-3D (and presumably with relevance to other future 3Daudio formats). However, the included 'Side Elevation' drawing (link) lets us infer some considerations which may have influenced speaker placement decisions:

  • All front and surround middle layer speakers lie in one flat plane (with the surrounds just above ear level?) tilted to accommodate the pitch of the stadium style seating.
  • Front height layer speakers are placed near the top of the display.
  • Side and rear surround height layer speakers all lie in one horizontal plane somewhat below the ceiling, and are tilted downward.
  • The 6 VOG speakers are centered approx half way between the front and rear walls.
  • You can never have too many sub woofers!

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post #25 of 33 Old 05-29-2014, 09:56 PM
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That plan in the last post is more or less what i have done...

Just duplicating the lower channels into the height layer channels has made a huge difference in envelopment. I am running a 11.1 dts neo x signal but through 19.4 speakers.

The surround experience is the best i have heard so far outside a true atmos setup.

Anyone wanting a great/superior surround experience, go for a 20+ speaker surround setup. This can now be done very affordably with crown XLS amps and half decent horn loaded efficient in-wall speakers.

DO NOT build a serious home theater custom job with anything less than 16 speakers today. The effect of more channels is SO good even on movies not recorded with more than 7 channels. Surround speakers do not need to be ultra-high end to get an amazing experience (i have 40k retail main speakers and can literally afford anything). The bg-radia and polk audio in-wall surrounds i have were VERY affordable. If I did it again, i would just use some klipsch or cheaper horn in walls (about 30 of them) and be done. Just crossover surrounds at 80hz and save the money for 3-4 very good subwoofers.

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post #26 of 33 Old 05-30-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Would it even be possible to setup Dolby Atmos in a room that is as small as mine?
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post #27 of 33 Old 05-30-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post

Would it even be possible to setup Dolby Atmos in a room that is as small as mine?
Yes anything is possible if you have the money and the budget and ability to properly mount the speakers. . . Doubt it would be worth it though
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post #28 of 33 Old 05-31-2014, 06:03 PM
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I have a 19.4 setup now and it sounds MUCH better than 11.4 did. This is no exageration. The work was VERY worth it. 90% of commercial theaters dont sound as good as it does for me now in my own room for a very reasonable budget.

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post #29 of 33 Old 06-01-2014, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I have a 19.4 setup now and it sounds MUCH better than 11.4 did. This is no exageration. The work was VERY worth it. 90% of commercial theaters dont sound as good as it does for me now in my own room for a very reasonable budget.

But how large is your room? Would a setup like yours even be possible/worthwhile in a room that is as small as mine?
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post #30 of 33 Old 06-01-2014, 03:30 AM
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If the rear speakers are too close to the listening position, they can be too distracting - making you think about the speakers rather than what's on the screen. In that case, raising them up higher can help with that.

This is less of a problem if they are further away, you have multiple sets of surround speakers, or if you have bipole/dipole surrounds.


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