are high-end speaker wires bunk? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 10:40 AM
 
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What college degree do you hold? What practical experience or training qualifies you to make these statements? I'm not refuting your comments, but rather would just like to know where you are getting your information.
BS- Industrial Psychology(1979), and 15 years in the pharmaceutical industry where I've been involved in designing and implementing clinical drug trials. Also, my wife is a published clinical investigator on several important NIH trials and who now is involved with coordinating clinical trials on Leukemia at a major cancer center. We live and die by the clinical trial. Hope that better explains my attention to detail with regard to designing and implementing a valid and reliable clinical trial.
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post #182 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 11:10 AM
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Ah, Bob, you took the bait. It was all too obvious that merc had those credentials when he first challenged my knowledge of clinical trials. But notice that he was happy to respond to your challenge but none of the rest of your post or the several preceding.

Unfortunately, I have seen this all too often. People who work in the sciences and yet have no flexibility in their thinking. They've learned a certain way of doing things, and that becomes gospel, and you're WRONG if you disagree with them, even if they are trying to apply what they know incorrectly or overzelously.

merc, please do not the term 'good science' as a cudgel with which to verbally beat people you disagree with. That's all I ask.

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post #183 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 01:12 PM
 
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Ah, Bob, you took the bait. It was all too obvious that merc had those credentials when he first challenged my knowledge of clinical trials. But notice that he was happy to respond to your challenge but none of the rest of your post or the several preceding.
I've addressed all of the points (?) Bob makes many times already in this thread. For those answers, just go back and re-read my other posts.

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Unfortunately, I have seen this all too often. People who work in the sciences and yet have no flexibility in their thinking. They've learned a certain way of doing things, and that becomes gospel, and you're WRONG if you disagree with them, even if they are trying to apply what they know incorrectly or overzelously.
It is not a matter of flexibility nor of disagreement at all. There is a right way to run a DBT and many wrong ways. Only the right way results in a valid and reliable result. All the wrong ways just are wasting your time and money.

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merc, please do not the term 'good science' as a cudgel with which to verbally beat people you disagree with. That's all I ask.
Sorry if I beat you. I thought I was trying to educate you? I give up trying to intelligently discuss how to correctly design and do a DBT. All I am gonna recommend is that you stop saying you are doing a DBT when you are not.

And back on original topic, IMO, most really expensive cables which do not actively modify the signal probably produce no better sound than their less expensive siblings on the vast majority of systems.
I'm done in this thread. Thanks for putting up with me.
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post #184 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 01:53 PM
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Merc, you have certainly distinguished yourself as being qualified, so I now pose this question:

Since you have shot down the DBT as explained, how would you conduct a DBT that would be completely fair and scientifically valid?

George Russel, in his book The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Harmony, listed many professions available in the music industry. He concluded with "If you have absolutely no talent for any of the above professions, you can always be a critic!" The point here is that it is very easy to criticize the clinical testing, but can you design a test that would be completely valid? What would it take to make the test "scientifically and statistically significant"? I'm not trying to single you out here, as you are only trying to point out the flaws in the testing. It just seems that everyone who criticizes the testing procedures NEVER suggests a procedure that they feel would provide valid results. I mean, c'mon, if you don't like my test, then design one that you do like! I'm not difficult to convince...I'd just like to see ANYONE pass ANY test!
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post #185 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 02:30 PM
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merc,

I will try this one more time. Excerpts from drjanson.com:

"A clinical trial is a prospective study in which the participants are placed into two groups based on a random division (to avoid bias in subject selection), and the subjects are not aware of which group they are in, the treatment or the control (a single-blind study). If the researchers also do not know which group is which before they break the code (they are coded for later evaluation) it is called a double-blind study. This is important because just knowing you are in treatment can influence the outcome – through the power of the mind to influence healing."

Who does the coding and labeling? A person who has no contact with the researchers.

"Even when the researchers know which group is which, they may pass subtle hints to the subjects, subconsciously or otherwise, that may influence the results. If the treatment is with medication, the control group is given an inactive pill called a placebo. Thus you will see references to "randomly-assigned, double-blind, placebo-controlled, clinical trials." (And some people refer to a triple-blind study where no one knows what is going on.)"

A-ha! So what you want is a triple-blind test. I'm sorry if you've been using the wrong terminology at work. Thanks for playing.

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post #186 of 492 Old 07-27-2002, 04:38 PM
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I'VE GOT A HEADACHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Information is only as good as the accuracy of the source"
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post #187 of 492 Old 07-28-2002, 09:21 AM
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It's all in your mind, John
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post #188 of 492 Old 07-28-2002, 03:07 PM
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The question is John,did you do a "proper" DBT to make sure you had a headache? :D
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post #189 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 01:51 AM
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I bought a pair of audioquest slate 10 ft full-range wire for $300 incl tax. I used to use and still use a monster 4 core biwire 14AWG standard cord which I bought cheap. I put the slates on but my denon 3801 won't accept spades so I hacked the connection using the banana plugs from the monster. The connection was not very good but worked. I used speaker wire to connect the two HF and LF binding posts instead of the metal plates that come with the speakers.

My girlfriend and I thought we heard a little increase in bass response and definition The sound stage was better. We wondered whether it was worth the money. I had to exchange the cables to get banana terminated ones.

I eventually twisted the two positive and negative cores on the monster to make them two core single wire and connected them and there was definitely a change in sound. The sound stage did change and the bass was less defined.

I do not have money to blow on speaker wires but I was looking for an inexpensive way to tweak my system. I am going to get a cheaper set of wires AQ cv-4 $250 and do a DBT with my gilfriend to see if we can perceive any difference between the three wires.

I was thinking of returning them anyway and felt bad purchasing them and was hoping that I would not hear any difference. But I think $300 is better than $2000 for a good 5 channel amp or $800 for a new CD player. So after I do my DBT I'll post a follow up. My Girlfriend is a trained musician with a very good ear and an audiophile in the making. So she is the prefect DBT participant. She could tell the difference between my biwired and non biwired setup (she didn't know what I changed or what biwiring was). This should be interesting.
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post #190 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 09:46 AM
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'bay,

I agree it will be interesting, please post your results. But since we've been arguing terminology ad infinitum in this thread, please use the correct term - if it's you switching wires and your GF listening, it's a 'single blind test'. The potential flaw in such tests is that you will transmit your knowledge of when the 'better' cable is in place in a very subtle way. Neither of you may be aware of it conciously, but it happens, hence the interest in 'double blind tests', which involve a third person (or the ABX box described earlier in the thread, which is a neat concept).

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post #191 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 10:10 AM
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So let me understand this - for a single blind test I need one aspirin for the headache and for the double blind one - two? And if the headache is only imagined, I take either the blue pill or the red pill as in the "Matrix" according to which reality I prefer?
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post #192 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 10:54 AM
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I've already conducted two DBTs using AudioQuest CV-4 vs #12, as I own lengths of both of these. One was into a $4000 pair of speakers and the other into an $8000 pair of speakers. I forget exactly how many people participated in those, something like 5 to 7 total. All of us failed to discern a difference.

However all of us, including me, perceived that the CV-4 made an audible difference in sighted tests. In three sighted comparisons, 1 before the first DBT, one in-between the two DBTs, and one after both, I thought the CV-4 improved the soundstage and had a bit more clarity on both highs and lows. It was a very pleasing effect. But, as I perceived no difference whatsoever in either DBT, I have to conclude there is something about the CV-4 that influences me to perceive an improvement. If I had never participated in the DBTs, I would be in this thread vigorously defending that CV-4 made a difference.

One other note, running a good DBT on speaker cables is very difficult. If you are swapping cables, it takes more time between trials than what is optimal for a DBT. In some of my speaker cable DBTs, I have used identical amps being driven by a single preamp with two outputs. These amps had a kill switch for disconnecting the outputs. So to swap, we kill the output, swap only the speaker connection and reactivate the amp. It was much faster than having to swap both ends of the cable.

All swapping has to be done from out of the sight of both the listener and the test administrator. Running a valid DBT on a speaker cable is a royal pain in the neck.

Tom B.

PS I ran the 2nd DBT on the CV-4 because after several weeks of using it and finding what I felt were significant differences between it and #12, I came to the belief that I hadn't given myself a fair chance in the first DBT. Now I was really clued into the differences. So we reran it and I think I got 6 out of 10 right the 2nd time. By the 3rd trial, I knew I was done for. All of those magical, distinct differences, that had been so apparent just minutes before, had somehow been wiped out. By some voodoo magic I suspect!!!:) :D
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post #193 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 11:30 AM
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Ok let me explain my position a little bit better. I do not prescribe to the belief that a $100 wire for 10 ft will be any less of a conductor than a $1000. I am going to buy 20ft of 12 AWG wire from home depot and get the AQ slate which is also 12AWG (the cv-4 is 15 AWG) and the monsters I have is 14AWG. Since the gauges are different I might have heard the difference. So I'll use same gauge wire for my tests.

The way I am going to do the test is have her go into the bedroom while I change the cable and have her close her eyes and sit and listen to a track. then have her eyes closed and either pretend to change the cable or change it. Her eyes will remain closed throughout. I don't want to use an ABX box because I can't afford one and I don't think putting an extra circuit is going to make the signal pure. I don't like those black boxes they put on expensive transparent cables. It think any extra circuit no matter what it does is causing distortion from the signal my Amp is outputting and my speaker is receiving.

Here is a site I stumbled upon check it out.
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...io/Analog.html

I think spending mucho dinero on cables is crap but I haven't done any listening tests and know the physics involved less, so I can't make any conclusions just yet. I do understand physics and plan on researching the physics behind this. The above website is a start.
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post #194 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 11:31 AM
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My experience has been the same as Tom's. We first did a sighted comparison of various cables (speaker and interconnect) on a high end system. After that we performed a DBT and the results were random. Below is our DBT setup for those who are interested:

- Sessions were tracked by number
- Each session could use the same cable or a different cable
- The person who switched the cables was never in the same room as the listeners and always took the same amount of time to perform a switch (i.e. we had 1 minute between each listening session).
- The person who switched the cables kept track of which cable = which session number
- no switch box was used
- results were not discussed by the listeners at any point
- There was never any visual evidence letting the listener know which cable was hooked up
- Final results were tallied and then discussed after the last listening session

Quote:
If you are swapping cables, it takes more time between trials than what is optimal for a DBT.
We felt that we could easily tell the difference, regardless of the time between swaps. We were wrong.
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post #195 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 01:14 PM
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This is an excellent thread. As a physicist, my thoughts/experiences are:

(1) Different speaker cables can affect bass performance a little, because bass drops off slightly if the cable is more resistive (most of the resistance is in the speaker, of course). Typically a speaker cable run is so short that it makes little or no discernible difference. On the other hand, with a 100 foot cable run most people would be able to hear the difference in bass between different manufacturer's cables.

(2) A looped cable, or a coiled cable, will make a difference to low frequency response as a loop or coil is inductive. If you don't lay your cables straight, that will make more of a difference in scientific terms than any internal 'inductance per unit length' characteristic of a cable. If conducting a DBT, all cables should be the same length and laid straight. A speaker cable should never be tested by passing the signal through the whole coil.

(3) With a digital signal, the cable quality should make no difference whatsoever until it reaches a point where there is a high error rate. That would need several miles of cable. If you think about a DSL internet connection (typically 2-3 miles of narrow-gauge copper wire between you and the nearest router, at 500kbps), you can see immediately that this point is correct. Obviously there is some error connection with internet transmissions, in the same way that there is some error connection on CDs and SACDs, so ultimately the user may not even know about errors unless they are so bad that the system does not work at all.

(4) With all cables, including digital, the terminations matter much more than the cable itself. A poorly terminated cable can lead to internal reflections (just like a piece of glass, or a mirror - have you ever stood close to a mirror and looked diagonally into it - you can count 5, maybe more, faint 'ghost' reflections because of internal reflections in the glass). Typically an expensive cable will be well terminated. A $20 cable should also be well terminated, however.

(5) Cable binding posts/banana plugs can have a surface layer of corrosion / dirt. (Even gold ones - the gold is not usually 24 carat.) If you change your cables over for a test, that will improve your electrical connection (or could make it worse) - either by scratching off some corrosion / dirt (improvement), or putting the new cable on over a place that has been more exposed to the air (worse).

That is why most people will notice an 'immediate improvement' if they upgrade their cables. They would also notice an 'immediate improvement' if they replaced their cables with a new version of the same one they already had.

(6) A very old cable can be oxidised internally, and can also have worn/broken strands where it has been bent in the past. 'Upgrading' to a new cable would have the same effect on the listener as in (5) above. It is not really because the cable is better.

(7) No speaker cables are shielded (OK, OK, some high end ones are sheielded, and braided/twisted cables have a shielded effect.) Although a speaker cable may pick up some RF interference, which may perhaps affect your amplifier's output stages by a microscopic amount, the point is that all unshielded unbraided speaker cables of the same length will be almost equal in this respect. The price of the cable will NOT affect how much RF interference it picks up.

(8) Cable quality can make a small difference to interconnects (where shielding from RF interference is important). Nevertheless it would be better to used balanced interconnects than to spend more than $20 on an unbalanced cable. Even with a $20 interconnect, the good quality termination of the cable is the single most important aspect (see above).

(9) Cable quality (or more specifically, termination quality) is very relevant to video cables. Internal reflections within the video cable can be of a speed/time delay that makes 1/2 pixel or 1 pixel difference, if the cable is several feet long. I recently bought a $100 VGA cable from Bettercables.com and it made a real difference to my projector-based system - previously with a standard cable I had several internal reflections leading to 'ghost images' of pixels, and the new cable reduced ghosting to about 25% of what was there before. Anybody who comes to my apartment can see that with their own eyes.

This time-delay effect mentioned here is not relevant at audio frequencies, which are about 1000 times slower than the frequencies of the signals carried by a video cable.

(10) Green ink can make no difference to the audio quality of a CD. Cleaning a CD (probably a pre-requisite before you apply the $50 green ink) can make an audible difference.
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post #196 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 01:37 PM
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Great thread, guys. Keep on trucking, Tom - I love it.

I would like to propose an alternate testing method that I have used to demonstrate the difference between receiver amps and outboard amps, biwiring or not, etc.

To test the effect of outboard amps vs. receiver amps, I take a mono source and "Y" it into both L and R receiver inputs. I then run one pre-out to an amp. One speaker is connected to the amp and one to the receiver. I then level balance the two channels. We all know what a mono image sounds like. Any difference between the amp and receiver will affect this imaging.

In order to do cable testing with this method, and assuming a two-channel outboard amp, you could have one speaker connected to L using Cable A and one connected to R using Cable B. Again, any differences should affect the mono image, deeper bass, airy highs, blah, blah, blah. The advantage to this method is that the aural evaluation occurs in real-time without relying on our audio "memory".

Food for thought.

Austin
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post #197 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 01:42 PM
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Like I pointed out before these sites are a good read and talk about this exact thread with the background transmission line physics.
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...io/Analog.html

This page is a particularly interesting read as it talks about skin-effect, audio and various types of cables.
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...ect/page1.html

This is a very neurtal website and does not make any claims. It is a link to the st andrews university, scotland's physics department.
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post #198 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 02:08 PM
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Clearly, at some level the wire matters, but not much. 24ga wire would probably be inferior on a long run. But, after that probably any 16ga wire or larger makes no difference.

I'm waiting for my HDTV ready speaker cables now.
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post #199 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 03:13 PM
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Those are good links. They show the calculations behind skin-effect and resistance loss. For example, they illustrate that the loss of power due to skin effect for a stranded #12 speaker cable is around 0.015dB at 20Khz, as compared to the same cable over the 100-1000Hz region (note: the 2mm cable used in some of the calculations is a bit thinner than a #12 cable). At 10Khz, it is around 0.007dB.

Thus if you are playing music at 91.569dB at 1000Khz, then your 10Khz notes are "rolling off" all the way down to 91.562dB. At least that's the power curve difference being delivered to your speakers. Now you speakers may vary by 3 to 5dB over the same range, so you are going to have a difficult time picking up on the 1/140th of a dB loss from the wire's skin effect. Golden ears indeed!

Tom B.
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post #200 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 03:20 PM
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Interesting thread but in the end it all seems to come down to those using cheaper cables bashing those who buy high end cables, In the end I think it comes down to what makes you happy and goes with your system and also what YOU hear not what the dealer hears or tells you..or regardless what you hear people say within this thread I think its a personal decision.

People buy 1-2 Million dollar homes while a $250k home likely would suit them just as well, People buy $70K vehicles when in reality a $25k one would also do just as well, People buy expensive diamonds and jewelry costing thousands while the average person who see's the jewelry would have no idea your wearing a $6k watch versus a $250 watch bought from the exhibition, it all comes down to buy what makes you happy and what you can afford and of course what you can hear in the audio world.

I was trained in Recording engineering many years ago and had alot of studio time during my training but can tell you one thing...they didn't seem to have fancy cables and most cables were nothing more than your average everyday balanced XLR cables, no braiding, no gold and no hype and I suspect most recording studios are the same.

I bought my cables after extensive listening through my system which consists of all Krell Audio Components and Wilson Audio for the speakers, I settled on NBS cables and it had nothing to do with the cost or the look but from what I heard and what I perceived to be quality sound, my dealer didn't talk me into buying cables and I made my own decisions and in the end the #1 thing is....They make me happy, they sound good.

BTW...after I noticed this thread I thought I would try with some radio shack cable I had a spool of and made a 6 foot pair with spades for each side, I connected these RS cables from a pair of Krell FPB 650's Mono Blocks to my set of Wilson Maxx and thought lets give this an honest try, I'll admit they work and sound okay but there is no way in hell they sound at all or even remotely close to my NBS cables up front of the same length and I would be more than willing to let anybody come and spend an afternoon listening to audio through my system with whatever cables you have....once again there is no way the RS cable sounds even close to my current cables so for those who make those claims, I for one know your full of it :)

The way I see it if you can't hear the difference then fine, be happy with the RS or lampcord stuff your using but don't knock the guy who buys what makes him happy and what he can truly hear a difference in...it is obvious RS cable makes many happy, so be it.

What's next will people be saying are high-end projectors bunk? Then again we will see people claiming those spending 12k for a projector are getting ripped when they can buy something that does the same for $3k...I guess that's would be the same as saying buying a Cadillac is stupid and instead you should just buy a Neon because in the end they both get you to the same place, same speed if you drive the limit.


This thread could go on forever and I enjoy the debate and the words but sometimes people go just a bit overboard almost to the point of calling people stupid for their purchases, once again its what makes you happy that counts and what impresses you.
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post #201 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 03:28 PM
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Alesis,

Your analogy has a few faults. You are talking in terms of premium versus what is required. The real argument is if there is even any difference.

This would be like me saying you were an idiot for buying a Corvette to commute to work when a Honda Civic would work fine. No one can argue that the Civic wouldn't get you to work, but the Corvette would be a more interesting drive.

This argument is more like me saying you are stupid for driving to work in a Civic with a Corvette body glued around it. It simply looks different while performing the same. That would be truly stupid, while I wouldnt' fault anyone for buying a Corvette if they could afford it :)
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post #202 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 04:03 PM
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Well then as my post said, there is indeed a difference and I offer anybody in my area to come by and HEAR the difference :)

Guess I could also counter by saying RS wire do the job, but I think my cables are more interesting otherwise you wouldnt have replied.

And of course you mention you wouldnt fault anybody for buying a Corvette if they could afford it, well I got the cables so obviously I could afford them.

What it comes down to is simply a topic to argue about and no real winner or answer, there will always be naysayers and those who claim this and that about high end cables and equipment also but I was simply giving my response to the topic "are high-end speaker wires bunk?" , I'd have to strongly disagree they are bunk, overpriced...well I guess that depends on how much money you have. My reply was in response to all the other posts which seemed to say RS wire sounded just as good, perhaps it does on some equipment but it surely doesnt on mine and I have tested it.

You mention "You are talking in terms of premium versus what is required" , Who sets the standard for what is required and what is "overkill or a waste of money"? You could probably get away with even cheaper than RS cable and make "sound" but would it be the sound you desire? Once again I think its a personal preference and something each person decides on his own, A look through the AVS picture gallery shows many people with "Home Theaters" sporting a 27" TV while others have 120"...personal preference or are the guys with 120" inch projections screens idiots when they can see the same picture on a 27"?
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post #203 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 04:19 PM
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Edmonton, Canada...and yes it's still warm here for couple months :)

BTW if you can bring some spare lamp cord just in case it is superior to the RS wire I tried.
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post #204 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 05:05 PM
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Alexis,

DON'T DO IT! Have CCRA turn 'em back at the border! If you let some zip cord loose on your megabuck cables, you're going to be crying for a month. Just sit back and enjoy the heck out of your NBSs. And please avoid threads like this one. You just might scare up an Edmontonian, Edmonter, Eddie? just dying to "zip" you up!

All in fun,

Austin

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Originally posted by Alesis404
Edmonton, Canada...and yes it's still warm here for couple months :)

BTW if you can bring some spare lamp cord just in case it is superior to the RS wire I tried.
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post #205 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 05:42 PM
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Alesis,

I don't see anyone implying others are stupid here. On the other hand, you are implying that people who have taken the time to do careful tests, which you have not, are liars. Not very nice (even with the smiley).

What this thread comes down to, is that these people have _proven_ that they can't hear the difference, whereas you just feel that you can hear a difference. If you go back and read their posts, these same people felt the same way before they did an unsighted test.

What's more, as has been described in detail, there is just no physical basis for the high end cables to sound 'better'. It's not about snobs vs slobs, it's about reality and psychology.

M
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post #206 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 06:38 PM
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Alexis' analogies aren't even close to hitting the mark. Clearly no one here is going to dispute that a 120" screen is not the same as a 27" screen. Nor it is the same as a 27" screen with a magnifying glass that makes it 120" wide.

Nor is it like comparing a $2M home vs a $250K home, unless they are identical homes excepting one has solid gold plumbing. The ABX test would consist of flushing the toilet and seeing if you could tell the difference.

I'm not going to Alexis' house to take him on, however I will say that some of the audiophiles who have participated along with me in DBTs have been far more adamant about the differences between wires than what Alexis has thus far displayed. And they all went down in flames. One way to quickly put someone to the test is to sit them down in the listening position and go through a swap of their expensive cable vs the cheap stuff. They will point out so many differences. Then do it again, but this time tell them the cheap stuff is the expensive cable. I've done this a number of times and the listener has fallen for it every time, going on to describe the fantastic qualities of the expensive cable.

Still, I haven't run so many comparisons with so many subjects in so many systems to say with absolute finality that it is impossible to tell a difference. Maybe Alexis can tell a difference. It would be a first for me for someone to actually do it, but it is possible.

BTW: Here's a link to some of the thoughts on this subject by John Dunlavy. Dunlavy was the designer of two Stereophile Speaker of the Year speakers and landed multiple speakers into the Stereophile Class A list over the years.

http://www.verber.com/mark/cables.html

Tom B.
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post #207 of 492 Old 07-30-2002, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HighEndWire
So let me understand this - for a single blind test I need one aspirin for the headache and for the double blind one - two? And if the headache is only imagined, I take either the blue pill or the red pill as in the "Matrix" according to which reality I prefer?
What if you take the red pill and the blue pill and you can't tell the difference (!) OK, just take the asprin. Or is it really a placebo? :)

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post #208 of 492 Old 07-31-2002, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
And they all went down in flames
Instead of being one of them...I'll be happy with my cables :)

I did my tests and am confident with my purchase, in the future I will avoid threads like this knowing the results, gee I should have known better when I seen people arguing over D-VHS and going back to tape.

And *moore* the reality and psychology of it all is some people can hear what others cant, others just can't accept this as being possible.

Have a fun time anyone that continues on with this thread hoping to help those of the "Lampcord Cult", you'll never sway them and instead be made out to be the bad guy who knows nothing and has been duped.

All in fun guys, I'll sit on the side and watch knowing the way this thread will go...LoL
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post #209 of 492 Old 07-31-2002, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alesis404

And *moore* the reality and psychology of it all is some people can hear what others cant, others just can't accept this as being possible.
Sure it's possible. It's been proven many times with different kinds of equipment, and stands to reason that some people have better and more attuned ears. But cable differences haven't been proven to be significant even among audiophiles.

Some people are willing to test equipment and accept the results - including myself. Others would rather cling to their beliefs and get angry and defensive and assume there is a hidden agenda - including you. Which one sounds more like a cult?

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post #210 of 492 Old 07-31-2002, 04:45 PM
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Ok did the tests as I had written earlier.

Test setup: I connected both wires to the speakers. I used the LF portion for the Monsters and the HF posts for the AQ slates. This allowed me to only quickly change the banana plugs in the back of the reciever and since both he cables were in plain sight and going to the speakers, the listener wouldn't know which is connected. Both my GF and I listened and administered the test. And the protocol was that we would always unplug and plug the cables even if we did not change them teh cables just to make sure we heard the sound. After a few runs I switched the connection on the back of the speakers the HF now to the monsters and the LF to the AQ. Then did some more tests.

Results: We could reliably tell that the wire had changed but could not tell which was which. My GF would be able to say this is the same soundstage and I would not have changed the cables. I could reliably tell that a change was made and my GF would reveal that she had changed the cables.

We felt that the soundstage receeded with the AQ slates and both of us somehow prefered the sound of my old cables.

I am going to do tests two more times on different days. I think mood and physiological conditions make music systems sound different. I know some days I just love my speakers on some days I am not happy with them. so two more trials to reduce the errors (science major speaking).

The beauty is that we percieved a difference but there was no better cable just a little different. It could be that the gauges were different. I am going to return the $300 cables once I have tested them with a 12 AWG cable from home depot my old cables are 2x14AWG twisted together (Biwire cables with 4 14AWG cores mereged to be two).

It could be that my tests were flawed or that there were differences. But I am going to test again. will post the results.
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