New Erskine home theater -- Need advice on Klipsch vs. Procella - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
This is high performance home theater, we are talking about. I don't like compromising
I honestly don't think any of us here like to compromise and I agree with your sentiment, but not the reality. Should the upgrade bug ever bite, I'd love to have any new speakers fully optimized with all new treatments and professional calibration....but then there's the reality of personal budgets (in most cases, present company included!!).
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post #122 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 01:54 PM
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@Doug Blackburn and @psgcdn

I think you both are right, but for different reasons. .

I think of home theater as a middle-class home where the owner (often a husband) is allowed a fairly limited amount of space to setup a projector or large panel display and a 5.1 or 7.1 sound system. These rooms are typically 13x20 up to maybe 15 or 16x30. I know this because when we have been house hunting, there simply are NO middle-class homes with rooms larger than this (basement or otherwise). Rooms in this size range certainly do NOT require horns for any application. Though horns could be used. And these rooms don't support large distances from screen to viewers. It's all about viewing angle, not screen size. There is ZERO reason to have a 12-foot screen and sit 16 feet from it if your theater is going to have 1-4 people watching movies at any given time. A 6-foot screen with a viewing distance of 8 feet provides the same (41 degree) viewing angle and makes it FAR simpler to setup the audio. I'd go as far as saying MASSIVELY simpler. Too often, custom theater rooms are way way way over-damped when a mix of reflective and absorptive surfaces is more appropriate. If you have to "kill" the room with damping to make an audio system sound good in a home theater, something is very wrong.


Rooms with large dimensions are typically found only in custom designed homes (I've seen homes costing 1.5 million and more that had no room in the entire home that was larger than about 18x20 (barely big enough for a 7.1 system). Large theater rooms are more common in the custom design/install world because the typical middle-class home owner just isn't going to have the budget or room size that you find in the "big" homes that are more commonly using the services of custom installers.


My guess would be that there are 15 to 20 projectors in the $3000-$5000 range sold for every projector sold in the $10,000+ range because there are simply more midrange home theater rooms in smaller spaces than there are large theater rooms where the advantages of horns become more important.


7-10 feet distance from conventional loudspeakers is where they perform their best. If your room size supports the front row being 7 or 8 feet from the screen, if there's a second row of seats (and no more than 3 seats per row at those distances, conventional speakers make a whole heck of a lot of sense. The farther you are from that compact area, the more advantageous horns become, but there is a zone in the middle where there's a lot of overlap and it can be very difficult to choose between one tech vs the other.


A lot if even mid-priced home theater system owners seem to think they MUST have a big screen, to the point that their big screen leaves no room to place speakers beside the screen so they use an acoustically transparent screen that further compromises sound. They'd be much better off with a smaller screen allowing speakers to be placed to the sides and a better center channel speaker above or below the screen combined with a closer seating distance. I've measured theater rooms like these where the owner thought everything was great... except he was getting 7 fL for 100% white in 2D mode in "high" lamp mode.which also made the projector fan pretty loud in that small room.


There are SO many things to consider in a theater room that there are simply no absolutes. But building a big theater room will ALWAYS be worse than a smaller room because of the acoustic issues that come into play with larger distances and reverb times. There's a (WRONG) feeling that a big theater room is somehow better than a smaller room... and custom installers will be happy to take the bigger project versus a more modest project every time, even if the more modest project would produce the same viewing angle, better sound and brighter picture for a lot less money.


Ever notice that the only time live music sounds better than recorded music is when the live music is performed unamplified in a space no larger than a big home living room? Especially if that room isn't filled with hard surfaces, but has a mixture of reflective and absorptive surfaces.


I found the description of the room for the stereo system being full of hard surfaces to be incorrect in the extreme. In fact, the worst-sounding rooms for music I've ever heard were all hard surfaces. A properly designed room for stereo music is going to have a mixture of reflective and absorptive surfaces so that there aren't harsh echoes. Glass surfaces are particularly nasty sounding for music playback. Just as bad, too many of the custom-designed home theater rooms I've seen have so much sound deadening material in them that there's no way they will EVER sound as good as they should. Using the right amounts of absorptive material without over-doing it produces better overall sound in theater rooms than totally dead rooms.
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post #123 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
These rooms are typically 13x20 up to maybe 15 or 16x30....

I found the description of the room for the stereo system being full of hard surfaces to be incorrect in the extreme.
Doug - I agree...we cannot save the world from bad audio and video. And we've all seen gonzo-sized screens and poor setups (i.e. center channel sitting on the floor, for example) that do far more to harm the home theater experience than the owner realizes.

I am also not disputing the fact that conventional speakers in smaller rooms are a great fit. But I clearly was not talking about these types of systems in smaller rooms with relatively short distances between speaker and listener....in fact I probably have the same preference as you for the conventional speaker setup in the typical family / converted bedroom / bonus rooms. What I was talking about was full-on dedicated theaters like Tnedator wants to put together. His room is 17'x30' (mine is even smaller at 17' x 23') and seating is pegged at 12.5' and 18', which is well beyond the distance these traditional speakers with dome tweeters should operate because of the HF degradation over these distances. Throw a screen in front of these speakers (no matter how acoustically transparent the manufacturer claims), and the problem is compounded a bit further. As a side note, Stewart even made a special THX-approved "high frequency compensation" device to basically jack up the high frequency to compensate for the HF loss and reflection on the back of the screen. I think there is little argument that conventional speakers are ill-suited for deep theaters with multiple rows of seating, even if the room is somewhat "smallish" by your standards.

Regarding your feedback on the two channel system....my comment was incomplete by mistake. I had typed other verbiage but I think I meant to cut/paste and forgot to paste! The point I intended to make is that, properly designed, a 2-channel room is far more 'live' than a properly designed theater room. That's not to say a theater room is dead....because it shouldn't be. But it is designed to be more absorptive than a music-only room. Again, there should be no argument here.

I would disagree with your assertion that there is zero reason to have a large screen and sit far away when you can have the same viewing angle sitting closer to a smaller screen. If I had my couch 8 feet away from a 6 foot wide screen in my family room, I wouldn't know what to do with the other 8 feet behind me, let alone the huge WTF look my wife would give me for having the couch pulled into the middle of the room (almost the center, actually) to hit the same viewing angle as with a large screen.
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post #124 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
If I had my couch 8 feet away from a 6 foot wide screen in my family room, I wouldn't know what to do with the other 8 feet behind me, let alone the huge WTF look my wife would give me for having the couch pulled into the middle of the screen to hit the same viewing angle as with a large screen.

Surround sound is SO MUCH BETTER when there is a fair bit of space behind the main seats. It takes a good 5-6 feet from smaller loudspeakers for the sound to "peak" so you really don't want your side or rear surrounds to be closer than that if there's any way to avoid having them that close. Space behind the seats works great for me... rear surrounds back there along with wife's china cabinet and storage for other infrequently used dining accessories. And because I review equipment, I use a tall rack for projectors and that sits well back in the room keeping the projector fan noise farther from the main seats. I don't get having the projector right overhead... much farther back is seriously preferable if the projector/screen combo support that.


My wife gets the whole house to do what she wants to do with EXCEPT the living room/dining room and garage are MY spaces to do what I want to do with them. Fortunately there's still a family room she can take over as well as an unused bedroom that's her secondary "sitting room". In the previous larger home, I got a big room in a finished basement - but that was a whole different real estate market! In the San Francisco area, real estate prices are insane and basements are almost non-existent.


By the way, if you MUST have the rear surround or side surround speakers closer than optimum, it is much better to use point-source loudspeakers in those locations... up to a point. I'd say if your speaker to listener distance is 3-6 feet, point source speakers are the best choice. If you have to sit even closer than that to the side or rear surrounds, dipoles may be best because they don't radiate straight at listeners. I've seen one very small theater room with only 2 or 3 feet behind the 2 seats in the theater work surprisingly well with dipoles for side and rear surrounds, but that's about the only time I'd use dipoles there... I think THX is completely wrong in continuing to recommend dipoles in reasonably sized rooms (if they are still doing that, they were 2 years ago). 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks have discrete and diffuse sounds in the soundtracks... and those are both abundantly clear over conventional monopole speakers... but dipoles convert the discrete, localized sounds to diffuse sounds in large rooms. Defeats one of the best things about 5 or 7 channel sound.

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post #125 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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While we all understand the concept of viewing angle, and that you can achieve 34* at 14' from a 118" screen or 8' from a 70" screen, but the experience is simply not the same. There is more than just viewing angle.

For the last 7 years or so (can't remember exactly how long, but I was on my seventh bulb I think, at around 20,000 hours), I've had a 118" projection setup in my living room. Since I was moving to a 2.35 screen in the new house, and at an increased viewing angle, I decided to move my couch forward (about 13') to get the 37* 16:9 viewing angle I will get in the HT when masked (~47* at 2.35). All was good, I decided that distance was good.

About six months ago, my IN-72 bit the dust. Because I'm building a new house, that will have a dedicated room, I decided to pass on getting a stop-gap projector, and instead get a 70" TV that I could use someplace in my new house.

Sitting 14' back from the 118" (1.78) screen was great. Bumping a bit closer to 13' was good. It was immersive watching HDTV and 1.85 movies, and even pretty good on 2.35 movies. When I got the 70" TV, I tried for a while moving the couch up to 8' (9' from the wall, because the TV is on a stand about 12" from wall). Not only did it wreck the living room, but it was just nowhere near the same experience. The viewing angle might have been the same, but it was nowhere near as immersive and had just a general claustrophobic feel being that close to everything.

Leaving audio aside for a bit, there is more to video than just viewing angle. Using that absolute, then you would have to argue that watching a movie on a tablet a foot in front of your face or on a laptop from two feet, is the same visual experience a 118" screen from 14 feet. It simply isn't the case, and nobody is really going to make that argument with a straight face.

Now, we all have constraints. My new HT will have a lot more flexibility than my living HT that started with a neutral grey painted screen with black felt tape border when the BenQ 6100 was released 11 or so years ago.

While too much size, too close can be an issue, and you can have a very good experience from 8' or 9' if you are limited to that, there are not many people that have a choice of 118" at 14' or 70" at 8' are going to choose 70" at 8' (assuming price, wife acceptance and other factors aren't determining factors).

On the sound side, if you take the position that you are willing to sacrifice immersiveness (both in screen size, and not having sound coming "from" the screen), and sacrifice the sound quality of the second row, and the only thing that matters is getting two seats to have the best sound (by sacrificing immersion and second row sound), then I can see your case for scooting up into the range of your domes. I don't agree with making those sacrifices, but from a two "prime" listening positions point of view, I kind of get it.
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post #126 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 07:08 PM
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Skip Procella. I'm guessing they are pushed heavily because the dealers and installers get a little cut on the recommendation. They sound real good to about -6dB in my experience in a medium sized room. After that they start to sound strained or outright distressed as you go towards reference volumes. If you never go above...say -10dB (give or take) in your theater they are a solid choice, and represent a great sounding home theater! A KC friend of mine (the same friend carp knows) has a Procella based theater with some professional treatments and EQ work done and it's one of my better experiences in home theaters visited all over the country --- that is until you turn it up towards reference. Then the Procella subs can't hang and the Procella speakers can't hang. I'd personally choose JTR, or Seaton Sound, or even a high end Klipsch (not mid level Klipsch) over Procella for home theater. But as usual - everyone has their own preferences.

If you want some opinions on the comparison the guys did in KC between Procella P8 and JTR 212HT and Klipsch RF-7 then you should contact Jedimastergrant (owns Klipsch - soon to own JTR), Randy Bessinger (owns Procella), Stitch1 (owns SVS), or carp (owns JTR 212HT) via PM and get their opinions outside of the public forum as they did the direct comparison last month. I didn't go to the direct comparison last month, but I've heard the Procella directly compared to the JTR at one of our speaker meets in the Park a couple years ago and I favored the JTR significantly there as well. Randy's room is most excellent. The treatments and EQ he has in place really make the Procella shine, but like carp said - I understood he walked away pretty impressed with the JTR after the a/b comparison in the netural party jedimastergrant's room.
I appreciate you going out on a limb with saying this stuff; and I appreciate your willingness to provide your opinion. Not too many people around here have heard the different speakers and are qualified to make such statements. The Procella has a cult following, and obviously a good speaker, but I always wondered if it was fluff or hype or how they really stacked up to some of the others.

Have you ever heard the DIY soundgroup stuff compared to them ? How does something like a FUSION 12 stack up ?

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post #127 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 07:28 PM
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I'm not taking it the wrong way. I think I probably came off more terse, and as an ______, because of my responses to Rabident.

Trust me, I'm not opposed to the concept of ID, I just have to be convinced that it's the right choice, not just a internet value love affair (we have all seen it far too many times on forums). I don't think that's the case with JTRs, I'm just not sure they have speakers that will fit my needs (outside of the LCRs and subs). i may have to wrap my head around not having timbre matched speakers and getting surrounds from a different company if I go this way (I'll get with Jeff at some point in near future -- call him if he doesn't return the email).

By the way, my friend, who had a HT build (designed by another HT guy, built, and then brought kinetics in for the room treatment), got JTRs in, it was about three years ago, and I think before the Noesis line, I think it was the triple 8's or triple 12s, would have been whatever his top end speaker was. He didn't like them. I suspect it might have been because he didn't have the room calibrated with them (room was treated, but calibrator came in after he got rid of the JTRs and switched to B&Ws). Unfortunately, I remember when he got them, but I never listened to them. His B&Ws, dome tweeters and all, sound great.

I'm seriously thinking about a Seymour screen (not sure if you guys consider that ID, since they also sell through dealers now, but he basically is), mostly because I can't afford the Stewart masking screen I want right now, and the XD material has a large fanbase on AVS that swear by it (it also has some fairly good independent reviews, which is much harder to find with JTRs).
It's all good

And yes calibration and room treatment is a Big part of of the equation.
I would rather have a so amount of $ speakers in an well done room with proper calibration than some speakers costing a lot more, with No calibration and some sort (even minimal) of room treatment.

Carpet and bookshelf can help a lot (or anything that can break the sound for direct reflecting).

Best of luck in your search and Happy Listening once you find what will work for you and your room.

Ray
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post #128 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 07:31 PM
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If you want some opinions on the comparison the guys did in KC between Procella P8 and JTR 212HT and Klipsch RF-7
Comparing a Procella P610 (or a bit unfairly to the others, the P815) to the JTR and Klipsch is a more likely and level comparison, not just the P8 speaker. It's like comparing one of the JTR surround speakers to a P610. Yes, the P8 can be used as an LCR speaker in small to mid-sized rooms and systems, but it should be in its full LCR configuration with crossover to be on level with the other comparative speakers.
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post #129 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 07:41 PM
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Comparing a Procella P610 (or a bit unfairly to the others, the P815) to the JTR and Klipsch is a more likely and level comparison, not just the P8 speaker. It's like comparing one of the JTR surround speakers to a P610. Yes, the P8 can be used as an LCR speaker in small to mid-sized rooms and systems, but it should be in its full LCR configuration with crossover to be on level with the other comparative speakers.

Except for the fact the Procella P610 costs $900 per speaker more then the JTR's and likely even more then the Klipsch speaker.


Does anyone know which compression drivers are used in the Procella speakers?

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post #130 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Except for the fact the Procella P610 costs $900 per speaker more then the JTR's and likely even more then the Klipsch speaker.


Does anyone know which compression drivers are used in the Procella speakers?
Not sure which Klipsch you are talking about, but the 650's (Ultra2's) street for far less than any JTR LCRs.

As to Procella drivers, when I was reading about the lower cost new P5 they are releasing, it said that the drivers were the same as the higher end speakers and made in Italy, but by which company, I don't know. They've reduced the cost of the P5 (and a lower cost sub), by going with a Chinese non-sealed enclosure and some other stuff, and then assemble it all in Sweden or wherever they are located.
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post #131 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 08:07 PM
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Not sure which Klipsch you are talking about, but the 650's (Ultra2's) street for far less than any JTR LCRs.

As to Procella drivers, when I was reading about the lower cost new P5 they are releasing, it said that the drivers were the same as the higher end speakers and made in Italy, but by which company, I don't know. They've reduced the cost of the P5 (and a lower cost sub), by going with a Chinese non-sealed enclosure and some other stuff, and then assemble it all in Sweden or wherever they are located.
That's what I meant, the Klipch would be even less then the JTR's. You can get any of the Ultra 2 stuff right from the AVS store for 50% off of list price.

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post #132 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 08:25 PM
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Except for the fact the Procella P610 costs $900 per speaker more then the JTR's and likely even more then the Klipsch speaker.
Not talking price....talking about a comparison of full LCR vs. LCR. Comparing just the head unit of Procella's full LCR without any crossover as it was intended and needs to have and declaring it incompetent isn't exactly a level comparison among speakers. It was easy to conclude without even testing that the larger speaker would have higher power handling and greater low-end than the smaller speaker.

Not exactly 'splitting atoms' with those conclusions.

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post #133 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 08:26 PM
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That's what I meant, the Klipch would be even less then the JTR's. You can get any of the Ultra 2 stuff right from the AVS store for 50% off of list price.
At 50% off the Klipsch (for movie watching) gets better and better. Now, if you wanted a smoother, more refined sound IMHO you would definitely want to look at Triads. Seriously, I don't think the OP has a big enough room to justify large compression drivers, let alone playing at reference volumes without being in a large auditorium. Do they want to lose their hearing??

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post #134 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 08:47 PM
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Surround sound is SO MUCH BETTER when there is a fair bit of space behind the main seats. It takes a good 5-6 feet from smaller loudspeakers for the sound to "peak" so you really don't want your side or rear surrounds to be closer than that if there's any way to avoid having them that close. Space behind the seats works great for me... rear surrounds back there along with wife's china cabinet and storage for other infrequently used dining accessories. And because I review equipment, I use a tall rack for projectors and that sits well back in the room keeping the projector fan noise farther from the main seats. I don't get having the projector right overhead... much farther back is seriously preferable if the projector/screen combo support that.


My wife gets the whole house to do what she wants to do with EXCEPT the living room/dining room and garage are MY spaces to do what I want to do with them. Fortunately there's still a family room she can take over as well as an unused bedroom that's her secondary "sitting room". In the previous larger home, I got a big room in a finished basement - but that was a whole different real estate market! In the San Francisco area, real estate prices are insane and basements are almost non-existent.


By the way, if you MUST have the rear surround or side surround speakers closer than optimum, it is much better to use point-source loudspeakers in those locations... up to a point. I'd say if your speaker to listener distance is 3-6 feet, point source speakers are the best choice. If you have to sit even closer than that to the side or rear surrounds, dipoles may be best because they don't radiate straight at listeners. I've seen one very small theater room with only 2 or 3 feet behind the 2 seats in the theater work surprisingly well with dipoles for side and rear surrounds, but that's about the only time I'd use dipoles there... I think THX is completely wrong in continuing to recommend dipoles in reasonably sized rooms (if they are still doing that, they were 2 years ago). 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks have discrete and diffuse sounds in the soundtracks... and those are both abundantly clear over conventional monopole speakers... but dipoles convert the discrete, localized sounds to diffuse sounds in large rooms. Defeats one of the best things about 5 or 7 channel sound.
I went through the THX training a dozen years ago when it was a full week of fire hose in the face education and "lab" work in Marin and at The Ranch, taught mostly by Tony Grimani, but also John Dahl. Despite what many folks think, THX has always encouraged THX-certified designers/installers to be creative with non-ideal rooms and configurations. The training manual depicts a number of variations.

As you point out, surround has to be both enveloping and direct as content requires. That has forced a far more open approach to surrounds. IIRC, the Klipsch KS-525-THX surrounds were the first non-dipole surrounds to get THX certification.

Further, there are changes in how mixes are recorded that affect dipole performance. Just this week I got an interesting email about this from an industry colleague guru.

"With modern 5.1 and 7.1 mixes, it's very important not to put any listeners in the negative lobe of a dipole. Many stems "wrap" these days, with phase-correlated material coming from the front, surround, and back channels simultaneously. If you're in a negative lobe, it will partially cancel what the other channels are doing and wreak havoc on the sound field. This augments the requirement that the positive lobe always face the screen, meaning that a dipole should always be behind the listeners.

(Sitting in) the positive lobe or null is fine, as long as the null leans toward positive phase, not negative." Interesting.

But your comment to get seating away from that back wall is essential, dipole or whatever!
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post #135 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I went through the THX training a dozen years ago when it was a full week of fire hose in the face education and "lab" work in Marin and at The Ranch, taught mostly by Tony Grimani, but also John Dahl. Despite what many folks think, THX has always encouraged THX-certified designers/installers to be creative with non-ideal rooms and configurations. The training manual depicts a number of variations.
It sounds like you and I went through THX Certification about the same time. It was quite the experience and a very intensive week, that's for sure. I've always been impressed with THX and how they are constantly evolving in their recommendations as technology advances and how the results of their audio research efforts are translated into practical application.
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post #136 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 09:49 PM
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The room itself, while not huge, isn't tiny either. 27' x 17' and a 10' ceiling.

While the hallway is a bit tight, and the surrounds maybe a little closer than ideal, this is compensated by having them a bit higher (and I believe slightly angled down), not to mention the fact it is a surround array that will be calibrated using DSPs. Based on everything I've read about Erskine theaters, I'm not too worried about him creating a design with a hot spotting problem.

In fact early on, when I pointed out that the middle two seats in the front row should be the sweet spot, he quickly pointed out there will be no sweet spot in the theater, that all seats will sound equally good. Either way, 98% of the time it will just be my wife and I in there.

If I do opt for the Procellas and want to go for a 7.1.4 setup, I wonder if I could use the newly announced P5's in the ceiling coffers, pointed down, treating them like in ceiling speakers. That way they would still all be timbre matched, unlike if I went with Triad or some other in ceiling speakers.

I can't say I agree with all of Doug's opinions in his posts here. Lots of good stuff, but some stuff that I don't agree with. One in particular is large room verses small room regarding ease of design. One is no easier than the other. Both have their issues, and once addressed, will result in terrific performance. It comes down to scale; the quality of the sound over x number of seats. The smaller the room, the tougher it is to deliver a uniform experience, especially with regards to low frequency acoustic response. It's a matter of math. The math helps a larger room in the LF range.


Tnedator, listen to Dennis. This is a room of very good size and proportions. You can get a good-sized screen in there, and at least two rows with very good low frequency acoustic response.

Dennis is totally right to suggest horn designs in this room ... for one reason. As rooms get larger, they have more influence. To know which type of speaker to use, you must be able to anticipate or design for "critical distance." If your LCRs to primary/reference seat distance reaches or exceeds critical distance, you will have an imprecise front stage at that seat. Since home-sized theaters can be so easily over-absorbed with treatments, it becomes advantageous to choose speakers with higher directivity index (some call it controlled directivity) in rooms this size and larger. Horn designs (and good waveguides) have higher directivity therefore it is easy to keep the listener inside "critical distance." The challenge can be covering the primary seats smoothly with speakers with high directivity (especially smaller rooms with shorter throws). Those LCRs must be aimed (including KL-650-THX).

The theater in the attached photos is almost exactly the size of yours. I designed the basics, but used Dennis as a consultant, and to generate the plans. I chose the speakers and designed the acoustic treatments with another colleague to have broadband absorption but retain acoustic life and have a low noise floor. Klipsch KL-650-THX LCRs, KS-7800 THX surrounds (two on each side wall, and two on the back wall), and the two subs from that line. All were concealed behind fabric.

I've used that Klipsch line a lot and still have them at home (a much larger family room). They sound great for all types of sound. I'm sure the big 212s and such will out scream them, but that's not my benchmark in any room.


The Procellas would also be awesome, but pricey.

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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
The JBL 8320 are THX Certified and only 8.8" deep, which is over an inch less than the JTR 8HT, meaning it should work for you. I agree though JTR would be an excellent choice, and it's hard to beat the performance/dollar.
If it's a big room, these are okay. They have the ISO roll-off ("SMPTE/ISO2969 Curve X high frequency de-emphasis")... which is inappropriate for a smaller acoustic environment. That is not a problem in a large volume and/or acoustically lively room.
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post #137 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 09:49 PM
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My own speaker selection odyssey took two years and spanned four continents. I ended up with Procella.

Would I claim they are the best speaker known to man ... no, that's just not me, however I think it's significant that I have absolutely no regrets and they continue to thrill me every time I use my theatre.

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post #138 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 10:40 PM
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How is it that installers who make a living off this hobby don't make it strong intent to go to audio G2G meets and hear what's out there? Honestly.
There are several of us on these boards who travel to several meets per year all over the states and never made a dime off this hobby.

If there's a new speaker or sub out I'm interested in I make it my business to hear it. Write the vendor, meet the local community, host a G2G, ask owners for a demo.
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post #139 of 220 Old 07-16-2014, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
How is it that installers who make a living off this hobby don't make it strong intent to go to audio G2G meets and hear what's out there? Honestly.
There are several of us on these boards who travel to several meets per year all over the states and never made a dime off this hobby.

If there's a new speaker or sub out I'm interested in I make it my business to hear it. Write the vendor, meet the local community, host a G2G, ask owners for a demo.
Maybe they'll be afraid of what they hear....lol


Might make their job of pushing 4grand speakers a little tougher knowing that there's something out there that's half the price that sounds just as good and they won't make anything off of them if their customer decides to go that route.


Let's not forget the old quote of "ignorance is bliss" might also have something to do with it too....lol

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post #140 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 07:04 AM
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Reading through this thread, it really seems like you are putting most of your budget into the room and are going to be on a budget with regards to the speakers. My opinion is that Klipsch often gets a bad reputation here, and while I am not a huge fan of their more budget Reference series and lower gear, I have heard the Ultra2 stuff and it is on another level. I don't doubt that Procella and JTR Neosis (I have heard the JTR Triple 8's years ago and they were good, but not great) and Triad Gold are better (I love the Triad Gold series and hope to upgrade to that lineup down the road myself). But with the budget in mind, the Ultra2 gear is nothing to sneeze at. In a properly setup room they should sound quite good, especially since you are not trying to push reference levels constantly. There is always a later date to upgrade to something better (there will always be something better). In 3-5 years there will be some amazing new home theater speaker that will blow away the (insert speaker company name and model here). Just the way it works in AV.

I would probably lean towards going ID with the subwoofers if you can, you should be able to get more bang for your buck vs Klipsch subs. There is really no benefit of matching Klipsch subs with Klipsch speakers.

You have gotten some great advice here, but my point is that budget is budget and the Klipsch speakers you are considering are going to sound very good in your room. As in life with all things, you have to consider the price and also diminishing returns. Sure you could spend 2-3 times more than the Klipsch speakers, but the question is, do you think you will get 2-3 times more performance based on your budget?

The fact that Dennis has no issues with installing these speakers in the room and he is not a dealer tells me a lot as well. Dennis is an opinionated guy and not afraid to speak his mind. If he thought these speakers were not right for your room, he would tell you directly
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post #141 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 08:08 AM
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Fact is the room and the OP's preferences will determine satisfaction with the sound more than the specific speaker brands being discussed here. The performance delta is relatively small for good quality speakers at "normal" listening levels. I have heard a good number of the products being discussed and would be reluctant to make a specific recommendation.

Funny that someone who heard my previous system once ... checked in with his recommendations partially based upon that rather poorly focused demo (my bad). I guess what I'm saying is take all of this advice with a grain of salt and go with what the designer of your Theater recommends. The hard part is standing pat with all of the product love that is willingly shared here.

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post #142 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
How is it that installers who make a living off this hobby don't make it strong intent to go to audio G2G meets and hear what's out there? Honestly.
There are several of us on these boards who travel to several meets per year all over the states and never made a dime off this hobby.

If there's a new speaker or sub out I'm interested in I make it my business to hear it. Write the vendor, meet the local community, host a G2G, ask owners for a demo.
Many don't, but a lot of us do ... or accomplish the same using their own theater/room as a lab. Many go to CEDIA to get some experience with new technology and training. The many who don't do either may fit into the category mentioned in the next quote.

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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Maybe they'll be afraid of what they hear....lol

Might make their job of pushing 4grand speakers a little tougher knowing that there's something out there that's half the price that sounds just as good and they won't make anything off of them if their customer decides to go that route.

Let's not forget the old quote of "ignorance is bliss" might also have something to do with it too....lol
When I began to semi-retire from the movie making career, and shift into the HT design/installation field, I did a ton of research observing other companies. What I saw was what I regarded as the wrong approach. I saw business models driven by retail sales of more and better boxes (products) ... and, frankly, NOT doing the right thing with the "boxes." I knew pretty soon that I had to be in business for myself. I was/am of the opinion that boxes are important, but how they are chosen and implemented is critical to successful installation.

As you mention/imply, money might be much better spent on things that make speakers a third of the 4K price sound VERY good. I am also a firm believer that size/scope of the room is a big driver of the total investment. Bigger rooms need speakers able to do the job of making enough sound/moving enough air with low distortion. Yes, you can choose huge esoteric speakers if you wish, but if you plan a larger room and you do have a budget, then the decision process deserves careful consideration.

It's tough to find providers with that philosophy for many reasons. Many companies have so much overhead (labor, lease, debt, etc) that they must deal in volume and big margin products. A lot of such companies are no longer in business. IMHO, small businesses who stay lean and provide a high level of service have the ability to retract/adapt with the changes in the market. Find one of those with a strong dedication to "doing it right" but responsive to client custom factors, and you have a winner.

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Reading through this thread, it really seems like you are putting most of your budget into the room and are going to be on a budget with regards to the speakers. My opinion is that Klipsch often gets a bad reputation here, and while I am not a huge fan of their more budget Reference series and lower gear, I have heard the Ultra2 stuff and it is on another level. I don't doubt that Procella and JTR Neosis (I have heard the JTR Triple 8's years ago and they were good, but not great) and Triad Gold are better (I love the Triad Gold series and hope to upgrade to that lineup down the road myself). But with the budget in mind, the Ultra2 gear is nothing to sneeze at. In a properly setup room they should sound quite good, especially since you are not trying to push reference levels constantly. There is always a later date to upgrade to something better (there will always be something better). In 3-5 years there will be some amazing new home theater speaker that will blow away the (insert speaker company name and model here). Just the way it works in AV.

I would probably lean towards going ID with the subwoofers if you can, you should be able to get more bang for your buck vs Klipsch subs. There is really no benefit of matching Klipsch subs with Klipsch speakers.

You have gotten some great advice here, but my point is that budget is budget and the Klipsch speakers you are considering are going to sound very good in your room. As in life with all things, you have to consider the price and also diminishing returns. Sure you could spend 2-3 times more than the Klipsch speakers, but the question is, do you think you will get 2-3 times more performance based on your budget?

The fact that Dennis has no issues with installing these speakers in the room and he is not a dealer tells me a lot as well. Dennis is an opinionated guy and not afraid to speak his mind. If he thought these speakers were not right for your room, he would tell you directly
All excellent advice. Triad makes great products, and Dennis has used a ton of them over the decades. The Triad subs with their DSP amps (with EQ, etc) would be a great choice with either the Klipsch THX or Procella speakers.

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post #143 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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All excellent advice. Triad makes great products, and Dennis has used a ton of them over the decades. The Triad subs with their DSP amps (with EQ, etc) would be a great choice with either the Klipsch THX or Procella speakers.
Dennis has mentioned dual Triad (in room Gold I think) subs as a good option for me, that costs far less than the Procella P18 (out of my reach).
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post #144 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 08:54 AM
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Dennis has mentioned dual Triad (in room Gold I think) subs as a good option for me, that costs far less than the Procella P18 (out of my reach).
Great minds...

You would be well served to read Todd Welti's Harman White Paper on multiple subs. If your budget and design can handle it, four in your room in the configuration suggested in the White Paper would render the smoothest LF acoustic response.

Keep us informed on your progress.
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Great minds...

You would be well served to read Todd Welti's Harman White Paper on multiple subs. If your budget and design can handle it, four in your room in the configuration suggested in the White Paper would render the smoothest LF acoustic response.

Keep us informed on your progress.
Thanks. I'll see if I can find it. Definitely something I would be interested in reading.

Ultimately, the plan is for two powered subs up front, and three smaller balancing subs in three locations around the room, but since I can't swing the separate, amps, DSPs and calibration in phase I, I'm probably just going to go with two subs up front, and then in 12-18 months, finish out the speaker/DSP build.
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post #146 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 09:17 AM
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Thanks. I'll see if I can find it. Definitely something I would be interested in reading.

Ultimately, the plan is for two powered subs up front, and three smaller balancing subs in three locations around the room, but since I can't swing the separate, amps, DSPs and calibration in phase I, I'm probably just going to go with two subs up front, and then in 12-18 months, finish out the speaker/DSP build.
With two solid subs up front, you may find you don't need the balancing subs.

I have four 15's that I custom built myself running off a DSP amp and I could honestly gotten away with two of them and been happy (my room is larger than yours).
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post #147 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 09:28 AM
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Dennis has mentioned dual Triad (in room Gold I think) subs as a good option for me, that costs far less than the Procella P18 (out of my reach).
I feel your pain on this. Would love to have....checks wallet....has to consider other options. By no means am I trying to talk you out of Triad Gold subs as they are very good when paired with their DSP amps. But if you are looking at 'bang for your buck' performance value, then I'd give the DIY subwoofer route some very serious consideration for your LFE.

In the end, this is the route I chose by purchasing four 4cu ft. sealed subwoofer flat packs from the DIY Soundgroup and will be fitting them with four IST UXL-18 18" subwoofer drivers, all powered by a single Peavy IPR2 7500 DSP 7500 watt amplifier with integrated DSP, driving one pair per channel. The speaker and subwoofer building part of this forum is chocked full of extremely knowledgeable members whose skills rank right up there with the best speaker designers. And sometimes they ARE professional speaker designers who freelance their help and assistance in various threads. I only mention this option because you are on a budget and the total cost of this system for me came in at just under $2850. With building materials (glue, paint, screws, speaker terminals, polyester stuffing) adding another $125. Something to give serious consideration and thought.

I'll be interested to see where you land.
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I feel your pain on this. Would love to have....checks wallet....has to consider other options. By no means am I trying to talk you out of Triad Gold subs as they are very good when paired with their DSP amps. But if you are looking at 'bang for your buck' performance value, then I'd give the DIY subwoofer route some very serious consideration for your LFE.

In the end, this is the route I chose by purchasing four 4cu ft. sealed subwoofer flat packs from the DIY Soundgroup and will be fitting them with four IST UXL-18 18" subwoofer drivers, all powered by a single Peavy IPR2 7500 DSP 7500 watt amplifier with integrated DSP, driving one pair per channel. The speaker and subwoofer building part of this forum is chocked full of extremely knowledgeable members whose skills rank right up there with the best speaker designers. And sometimes they ARE professional speaker designers who freelance their help and assistance in various threads. I only mention this option because you are on a budget and the total cost of this system for me came in at just under $2850. With building materials (glue, paint, screws, speaker terminals, polyester stuffing) adding another $125. Something to give serious consideration and thought.

I'll be interested to see where you land.
Yea, as even since I last talked to Dennis about the subs and he recommended the Triads (which based on reviews seem pretty good), I think I'm going to go cheaper on this first go around.

The body blows from both building a house and EG home theater keep coming. It's funny to think a few weeks ago I was debating about whether or not to go with a Kaleidescape and whether to go Cinema one or server/Vault w/player. Now, for phase I, it's going to be an Oppo and Roku.

I did take advantage of Vudu's 50% off on disc to digital, so I switched all of my Blu-rays (that participate with UV) to Ultraviolet to $1 a piece, and my regular DVDs to HD Ultraviolet for $2.50. That way, even if I go with Kaleidescape or something else that lets you download Ultraviolet movies, I'll have a ton of content ready to load up with no additional cost.

I will also say that from when I started this thread, and was deciding whether or not it was worth the extra money for Procellas to now, my budget has changed, so in the short term, the Procellas aren't an option.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to go the Ultra2 route, because I can get those at a really good price (even better than some of the x% off numbers thrown out) through a source I have. So, I've read/heard enough positive about the 650's to decide that's the way to go. Will just have to decide if I go with the KA-1000 subs, which are smaller, but in reviews have gotten good reviews when paired with Ultra2 setup, or go another route for subs.

I know most people mix and match, but part of me wonders if the subs were created/tested to work with the 650's as a unit, will they better than just getting bigger subs from another source. I'm guessing it doesn't really matter. On a separate note, I can get the KA-1000 far below the ID subs thrown around.
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post #149 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 10:18 AM
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I feel your pain on this. Would love to have....checks wallet....has to consider other options. By no means am I trying to talk you out of Triad Gold subs as they are very good when paired with their DSP amps. But if you are looking at 'bang for your buck' performance value, then I'd give the DIY subwoofer route some very serious consideration for your LFE.

In the end, this is the route I chose by purchasing four 4cu ft. sealed subwoofer flat packs from the DIY Soundgroup and will be fitting them with four IST UXL-18 18" subwoofer drivers, all powered by a single Peavy IPR2 7500 DSP 7500 watt amplifier with integrated DSP, driving one pair per channel. The speaker and subwoofer building part of this forum is chocked full of extremely knowledgeable members whose skills rank right up there with the best speaker designers. And sometimes they ARE professional speaker designers who freelance their help and assistance in various threads. I only mention this option because you are on a budget and the total cost of this system for me came in at just under $2850. With building materials (glue, paint, screws, speaker terminals, polyester stuffing) adding another $125. Something to give serious consideration and thought.

I'll be interested to see where you land.
Well said ^

With bass more than speakers it's more a matter of physics, and less about crossover design and other intricate things that can distinguish and differentiate the sound of one speaker from another. Distortion free bass is distortion free bass for the most part, and the things you worry about are extension down low in frequency response and SPL output. The room and the location and set up has more to do with proper bass response at the LP than what brand driver you use. If you are looking for an area to save $$ DIY subwoofers are a great place. High end drivers like the UXL18 are as good or better than drivers you'll find in expensive MFG made subs anyways. The better designs for DIY are actually probably better than MFG made subs, even if you spot them 200% price increases. The most impressive subwoofer systems I know about are all DIY creations, and replicating them with MFG made seems impossible under $10,000. How many and what model MFG made subs would it take to equal 4 of the UXL18's ? What's the cost difference? It's crazy when you break it down. MFG made subwoofers are a dead end destination if you have any budget restrictions at all.

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post #150 of 220 Old 07-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Yea, as even since I last talked to Dennis about the subs and he recommended the Triads (which based on reviews seem pretty good), I think I'm going to go cheaper on this first go around.

The body blows from both building a house and EG home theater keep coming. It's funny to think a few weeks ago I was debating about whether or not to go with a Kaleidescape and whether to go Cinema one or server/Vault w/player. Now, for phase I, it's going to be an Oppo and Roku.

I did take advantage of Vudu's 50% off on disc to digital, so I switched all of my Blu-rays (that participate with UV) to Ultraviolet to $1 a piece, and my regular DVDs to HD Ultraviolet for $2.50. That way, even if I go with Kaleidescape or something else that lets you download Ultraviolet movies, I'll have a ton of content ready to load up with no additional cost.

I will also say that from when I started this thread, and was deciding whether or not it was worth the extra money for Procellas to now, my budget has changed, so in the short term, the Procellas aren't an option.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to go the Ultra2 route, because I can get those at a really good price (even better than some of the x% off numbers thrown out) through a source I have. So, I've read/heard enough positive about the 650's to decide that's the way to go. Will just have to decide if I go with the KA-1000 subs, which are smaller, but in reviews have gotten good reviews when paired with Ultra2 setup, or go another route for subs.

I know most people mix and match, but part of me wonders if the subs were created/tested to work with the 650's as a unit, will they better than just getting bigger subs from another source. I'm guessing it doesn't really matter. On a separate note, I can get the KA-1000 far below the ID subs thrown around.
There are definitely much better subs out there in the price vs. performance category than the KA-1000's. This comes up time and time again. The ID approach is definitely your friend here. You do not have to have matching brands of speakers and subs (speakers, yes, as you want to timbre match)... unless the subs happen to be killer for the price.

I would, however, stay away from the Klipsch THX Ultra2 KS-525 surrounds since dipoles and object surround formats don't really go together at all (their overly diffuse sound smears the cues embedded in the mixes). Perhaps all KL-525's for the wall and ceiling surrounds (if your columns can handle their size) since you can get such a good deal on the Klipsch's. They may need to be angled just like in a commercial theater, though maybe Dennis has more information on proper speaker installation given Dolby Atmos' requirements than us lay people.

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Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 07-17-2014 at 10:38 AM.
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