New Erskine home theater -- Need advice on Klipsch vs. Procella - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 10:18 AM
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Yes, but that XTZ sub has "high speed drivers"! hahaha
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post #182 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 10:29 AM
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Plus they don't list the xmax of the drivers, so I wonder what they call "high excursion".
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post #183 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
If you have an Erksine design, taking into account SPL and sound leakage with properly balanced speakers and subs for the room (not too much, not too little... just right), and the contractor doesn't muck it up, and you still disturb your neighbors... then you will be playing movies loud enough to have permanent hearing damage. And that would be just plain stupid.

Some of these bass heads will rue the day they chased the "nth degree" of bass response and reference levels. They'll be practically deaf come retirement age. Home theater rooms are not large commercial auditoriums.
I don't think having it means you need to always play it that loud. It's nice for a short burst to show off, or just make yourself smile, then you turn it down.

It's more about headroom, and dynamics, and low distortion.

A system that can do full reference plus is likely to sound great 10db below reference, with great dynamic range, plenty of headroom, and low distortion. Pushing a driver or a theater system to it's limits never sounds good, so backing off is the best way to get good sound. If you want to be able to do reference at clean volume, with good dynamic range and without compression you need good stuff.

I don't think a lot of guys with powerful systems always listen 10db+ over reference. That's 115db. Quite loud.

I can't even stand my FUSION 8's in my garage from an 80watt HK stereo AVR, they are already way louder than I can listen to. A good theater system IMO sounds good around 100db but if you go too loud it stops being pleasant. Having output capability doesn't mean you apply it all the time.

Keep in mind a lot of the guys want ULF and "flat to single digits" so they boost the bottom on their sealed systems which reduces output and SPL to get that ruler flat response at the LP. So having a powerful system is one thing, but it doesn't play or get configured for max SPL. It gets set up for best response at LP, which is usually at a calibrated reference level you listen at, and not at system volume limits. Subs have more distortion when they are played hard and loud too, so the headroom of a basshead system means it sounds better at "normal" listening levels.
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post #184 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 10:36 PM
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I'm using a Hsu Research VTF-3 Mk, 4 sub ($700 in black). In 2 different rooms, one a little smaller than the room of the OP, the other about the same volume, the VTF-3 Mk4 has achieved low frequency extension "flat" to 16 Hz (perhaps lower, but I don't have a test tone below 16 Hz). Measured bass response in both rooms is/was 16 Hz to 80 Hz +/- 2.5 dB and that was achieved using ONLY the tuning capabilities built-in to this subwoofer (there are 2 ports that can be configured with both open, both closed, or 1 open and 1 closed. In addition there is a variable Q control. There is an adjustable crossover in the sub, but like all subs using the LFE input from a surround processor, the subwoofer crossover should be eliminated. Yes, you can disable the crossover in the VTF-3 Mk4. Surprisingly, there is just a single 12 inch driver to achieve the rather remarkable bass response this sub can produce. If you fear 12" just isn't a large enough driver there are several models with 15" drivers (starting at $880) and the top of the line VTF model with dual 15" drivers at $1709. But I can produce more bass SPL than I need with the VTF-3 Mk4.


The sub has the driver firing from 1 side, the 2 ports are on the back (other models vary, the 15" VTF models fire forward and back and may not fit your space well). But with the sib behind your screen, any side of the sub can be "the back" so you could orient it with one side towards the wall, the driver firing towards the room and the ports firing to the right. It will fit in your space in that orientation.


This sub is capable of playing remarkably loud if you insist on doing that. It will vibrate every piece of furniture in the room, to say nothing of the walls.


This sub is so capable because it is physically larger than most subs (those cheaper or more expensive). There is no substitute for cabinet volume when it comes to powerful bass with excellent low frequency extension.


There aren't many subs under $3000 that will go down to 16 Hz flat and there aren't that many over $3000 that can achieve that benchmark. To get that sort of performance for $700 is remarkable. In fact, it pretty much puts everything else on the trailer.


That said, I use a second (not the same brand) sub in the back of the room, not so much because I need it, but I already had it and it does help smooth bass response even more than the +/- 2.5 dB I get from the Hsu sub by itself.


+/- 2.5 dB may not sound that impressive unless you have done a lot of bass measurements... trust me, +/- 2.5 dB is remarkably good bass response.
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post #185 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, how would you guys rank these choices for my 4800 cu foot or so room:

Two Rythmik FV15HP
One Seaton Submersive HP+ (with the benefit that I could add second slave HP+ in a year or so for only $1200)
One JTR Captivator 2400
One JTR Captivator S1

From a price perspective, if I started with a single JTR or Seaton, the later move up to dual would be cheapest for the Seaton, because of their slave option using the amp on the first unit ($800-1000 less than JTR options).

It would seam that the JTR or Seatons would be better once I move up to "dual" subs, the question is running them as a single for a while in my room.
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post #186 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
I'm using a Hsu Research VTF-3 Mk, 4 sub ($700 in black). In 2 different rooms, one a little smaller than the room of the OP, the other about the same volume, the VTF-3 Mk4 has achieved low frequency extension "flat" to 16 Hz (perhaps lower, but I don't have a test tone below 16 Hz). Measured bass response in both rooms is/was 16 Hz to 80 Hz +/- 2.5 dB and that was achieved using ONLY the tuning capabilities built-in to this subwoofer (there are 2 ports that can be configured with both open, both closed, or 1 open and 1 closed. In addition there is a variable Q control. There is an adjustable crossover in the sub, but like all subs using the LFE input from a surround processor, the subwoofer crossover should be eliminated. Yes, you can disable the crossover in the VTF-3 Mk4. Surprisingly, there is just a single 12 inch driver to achieve the rather remarkable bass response this sub can produce. If you fear 12" just isn't a large enough driver there are several models with 15" drivers (starting at $880) and the top of the line VTF model with dual 15" drivers at $1709. But I can produce more bass SPL than I need with the VTF-3 Mk4.


The sub has the driver firing from 1 side, the 2 ports are on the back (other models vary, the 15" VTF models fire forward and back and may not fit your space well). But with the sib behind your screen, any side of the sub can be "the back" so you could orient it with one side towards the wall, the driver firing towards the room and the ports firing to the right. It will fit in your space in that orientation.


This sub is capable of playing remarkably loud if you insist on doing that. It will vibrate every piece of furniture in the room, to say nothing of the walls.


This sub is so capable because it is physically larger than most subs (those cheaper or more expensive). There is no substitute for cabinet volume when it comes to powerful bass with excellent low frequency extension.


There aren't many subs under $3000 that will go down to 16 Hz flat and there aren't that many over $3000 that can achieve that benchmark. To get that sort of performance for $700 is remarkable. In fact, it pretty much puts everything else on the trailer.


That said, I use a second (not the same brand) sub in the back of the room, not so much because I need it, but I already had it and it does help smooth bass response even more than the +/- 2.5 dB I get from the Hsu sub by itself.


+/- 2.5 dB may not sound that impressive unless you have done a lot of bass measurements... trust me, +/- 2.5 dB is remarkably good bass response.

Hehe

The rabbit hole goes so much deeper than the vtf-3 mk 4.

Hehe

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #187 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Ok, how would you guys rank these choices for my 4800 cu foot or so room:

Two Rythmik FV15HP
One Seaton Submersive HP+ (with the benefit that I could add second slave HP+ in a year or so for only $1200)
One JTR Captivator 2400
One JTR Captivator S1

From a price perspective, if I started with a single JTR or Seaton, the later move up to dual would be cheapest for the Seaton, because of their slave option using the amp on the first unit ($800-1000 less than JTR options).

It would seam that the JTR or Seatons would be better once I move up to "dual" subs, the question is running them as a single for a while in my room.
My opinion:
If this is it and you won't buy more, get the pair of rythmiks. Fantastic subs! If you plan to buy one more later get the Seaton if you like music better and the JTR 2400 if you like tactile feedback more for movies better, just plan on buying a second one of either in the future. Seat to seat frequency response is much better with a pair of subs. If there's a chance you'll only buy one of the JTR or Seaton but you want to step up now to the top tier sub options for sure, then buy the Seaton. Dual opposed drivers typically can have a bit better frequency response across multiple seating positions in my measurement experience than just a single driver sub. Two subs (or more) is almost universally the best and preferred configuration to a single of the same capability, for purposes of headroom, smoother seat to seat frequency response, localization, etc, etc, etc.

If two, I'd prefer two JTR caps over a pair of submersives, but that's personal and both are incredible.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #188 of 228 Old 07-18-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Hehe

The rabbit hole goes so much deeper than the vtf-3 mk 4.

Hehe
So what? There's nothing in movies below 16 Hz (if there is, it's likely an accident because their monitoring equipment can't reproduce anything below 20 Hz in many cases.


And you can't hear anything below 16 Hz anyway... frequencies lower than 16 Hz will move walls and furniture, but you can't hear it.


Besides that, the OP doesn't want a DIY project.
Besides that, Hsu started out making subs with sonotube and sales were, at best, very modest. cube-style subs were Hsu's first big sales breakthrough,
Besides that you can't get a DIY sonotube sub to achieve 16-80 Hz +/- 2.5 dB in real rooms (not in an anechoic chamber or some other controlled test condition) without custom tuning the whole project (a TON of trial and error).
And as I said, the VTF-3 Mk4 may go lower than 16 Hz but I don't have a microphone calibration or test tones that go below 16 Hz so I can't tell for sure... that does not mean the VTF-3 Mk4 can't go below 16 Hz, I just can't confirm or deny it. Hsu's specs are VERY conservative also. I consistently get more low bass extension than their specs would lead you to believe for each configuration option of the sub.

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post #189 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
So what? There's nothing in movies below 16 Hz (if there is, it's likely an accident because their monitoring equipment can't reproduce anything below 20 Hz in many cases.


And you can't hear anything below 16 Hz anyway... frequencies lower than 16 Hz will move walls and furniture, but you can't hear it.


Besides that, the OP doesn't want a DIY project.
Besides that, Hsu started out making subs with sonotube and sales were, at best, very modest. cube-style subs were Hsu's first big sales breakthrough,
Besides that you can't get a DIY sonotube sub to achieve 16-80 Hz +/- 2.5 dB in real rooms (not in an anechoic chamber or some other controlled test condition) without custom tuning the whole project (a TON of trial and error).
And as I said, the VTF-3 Mk4 may go lower than 16 Hz but I don't have a microphone calibration or test tones that go below 16 Hz so I can't tell for sure... that does not mean the VTF-3 Mk4 can't go below 16 Hz, I just can't confirm or deny it. Hsu's specs are VERY conservative also. I consistently get more low bass extension than their specs would lead you to believe for each configuration option of the sub.
Tell that too "IRENE" from 'Blackhawk Down".....lol
Oh ya and the "War of the Worlds" pod scene too....lol


Your argument would have been a little more valid 5yrs or more ago, but more and more movies have content below 15hz in them.


Sounds like you really like your HSU products.
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post #190 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
So what? There's nothing in movies below 16 Hz (if there is, it's likely an accident because their monitoring equipment can't reproduce anything below 20 Hz in many cases.


And you can't hear anything below 16 Hz anyway... frequencies lower than 16 Hz will move walls and furniture, but you can't hear it.


Besides that, the OP doesn't want a DIY project.
Besides that, Hsu started out making subs with sonotube and sales were, at best, very modest. cube-style subs were Hsu's first big sales breakthrough,
Besides that you can't get a DIY sonotube sub to achieve 16-80 Hz +/- 2.5 dB in real rooms (not in an anechoic chamber or some other controlled test condition) without custom tuning the whole project (a TON of trial and error).
And as I said, the VTF-3 Mk4 may go lower than 16 Hz but I don't have a microphone calibration or test tones that go below 16 Hz so I can't tell for sure... that does not mean the VTF-3 Mk4 can't go below 16 Hz, I just can't confirm or deny it. Hsu's specs are VERY conservative also. I consistently get more low bass extension than their specs would lead you to believe for each configuration option of the sub.
I've heard a lot of subs, man. No offense, the HSU subs are nice subs for the money and I agree with what you say about the most pertinent content being above 15 or 16Hz -- I've long said that too. But your vtf-3 mk4 sub is a toy compared to some of the stuff I've heard and others on this board own ---- your comment sounded as if you thought it to be absolutely all anyone could ever use. That was my chuckle. I'm glad it makes you happy. Don't listen to JTR or Seaton or Rythmik or a big DIY array of subs - keep happy!

My audition list:
The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread.
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post #191 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 07:47 AM
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I used a box I built based on an LMS-5400 and 4000 watts for my old setup. Having said that, I believe most of this super sub, ULF stuff is a case of "mine is bigger than yours".

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post #192 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Ok, how would you guys rank these choices for my 4800 cu foot or so room:

Two Rythmik FV15HP
One Seaton Submersive HP+ (with the benefit that I could add second slave HP+ in a year or so for only $1200)
One JTR Captivator 2400
One JTR Captivator S1

From a price perspective, if I started with a single JTR or Seaton, the later move up to dual would be cheapest for the Seaton, because of their slave option using the amp on the first unit ($800-1000 less than JTR options).

It would seam that the JTR or Seatons would be better once I move up to "dual" subs, the question is running them as a single for a while in my room.
Sorry......not trying to be rude or insensitive......but you are making no sense at all. Erskine Group designed room and considering one sub in 4800 cf room?

Sorry, one wont cut it...........
Two wont cut either......

You should be looking at a MINIMUM of three or four subs whatever brand you choose to go with.
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post #193 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Sorry......not trying to be rude or insensitive......but you are making no sense at all. Erskine Group designed room and considering one sub in 4800 cf room?

Sorry, one wont cut it...........
Two wont cut either......

You should be looking at a MINIMUM of three or four subs whatever brand you choose to go with.
I think the OP said he would be adding subs (and more speakers for Atmos) as funds became available.

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post #194 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Sorry......not trying to be rud insensitive......but you are making no sense at all. Erskine Group designed room and considering one sub in 4800 cf room?

Sorry, one wont cut it...........
Two wont cut either......

You should be looking at a MINIMUM of three or four subs whatever brand you choose to go with.
This is a 12-18 month stop gap solution. After that time, I would move to two large subs up front, and three smaller subs spread around the room (in columns, one on each side, one on back wall - limited to < 7" in depth). The primary subs up front would still do the lions share low content, the smaller balancing subs around the room would improve the above 35-40 Hz bass.

The issue with going to plan B right now isn't even just the cost of the three extra subs, but the complexity of trying to calibrate two large subs and three balancing subs using just Audissey Pro. When I move to plan B, I will also switch to DSPs and let Erskine's group do the calibration.

So, I'm looking for a 12-18 month stop gap solution that will also hopefully be the front subs i can use for the long-term (along with the additional subs I add later).

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post #195 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 09:24 AM
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I've heard a lot of subs, man. No offense, the HSU subs are nice subs for the money and I agree with what you say about the most pertinent content being above 15 or 16Hz -- I've long said that too. But your vtf-3 mk4 sub is a toy compared to some of the stuff I've heard and others on this board own ---- your comment sounded as if you thought it to be absolutely all anyone could ever use. That was my chuckle. I'm glad it makes you happy. Don't listen to JTR or Seaton or Rythmik or a big DIY array of subs - keep happy!

I am not interested in DIY subs, nor is the OP. I am paid to review equipment, including subwoofers. The Hsu subs compared to every under-$3000 sub out there is likely the cost/performance leader. The OP has budget constraints and is not going to build a DIY project. Any sub that can do 105 dB at 20 Hz is no toy and the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 will do that AND has enough tuning options to allow you to achieve much more linear bass response than typical commercial (or DIY) subs (provided you have the measurement gear and knowledge to use measurements to get accurate room response measurements). Commercial subs often cannot produce 105 dB at 20 Hz, even at prices much higher than Hsu prices. I've used (not just heard), $4500 subwoofes that can't do 105 dB at 20 Hz. Not that I recommend 105 dB at 20 Hz! That's not usually necessary or even desirable. But it does speak to the capabilities of the product. Because of the prodigious output and low cost, both of which meet the objectives of the OP, that's why the Hsu was recommended.

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post #196 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 09:42 AM
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If you are on a budget you could easily go the DIY route and get it all at once and under budget without compromise or stop gap 18 months plans. If you can build a theater, you can build a sub box. There's plenty of plans out there, any home depot can cut your wood. Doing something simple like 2'x4' handi panels isn't all that hard. I guess it's personal opinion so neither is wrong, but personally I would rather a full sub solution up front done right for the price I had available rather than waiting 18+ months and compromising for a higher price. Calibrating 4 high quality subs is easier than one anyways, the more you have the more they tend to fix themselves; calibration shouldn't be an excuse.
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post #197 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 10:02 AM
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I am not interested in DIY subs, nor is the OP. I am paid to review equipment, including subwoofers. The Hsu subs compared to every under-$3000 sub out there is likely the cost/performance leader. The OP has budget constraints and is not going to build a DIY project. Any sub that can do 105 dB at 20 Hz is no toy and the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 will do that AND has enough tuning options to allow you to achieve much more linear bass response than typical commercial (or DIY) subs (provided you have the measurement gear and knowledge to use measurements to get accurate room response measurements). Commercial subs often cannot produce 105 dB at 20 Hz, even at prices much higher than Hsu prices. I've used (not just heard), $4500 subwoofes that can't do 105 dB at 20 Hz. Not that I recommend 105 dB at 20 Hz! That's not usually necessary or even desirable. But it does speak to the capabilities of the product. Because of the prodigious output and low cost, both of which meet the objectives of the OP, that's why the Hsu was recommended.
Care to share any measurement graphs showing the VTF-3 Mk4 hitting 105dB @ 2M ground plane? I'll be shocked if have them considering the VTF-15H doesn't even hit 105dB.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=100&mset=110


HSU product will have with subs under $1000, but that's about it. Once you go over that $1500 threshold they won't hold a candle to a $2000 sub.

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post #198 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 10:09 AM
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Man, you must review the wrong subs.
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post #199 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are on a budget you could easily go the DIY route and get it all at once and under budget without compromise or stop gap 18 months plans. If you can build a theater, you can build a sub box. There's plenty of plans out there, any home depot can cut your wood. Doing something simple like 2'x4' handi panels isn't all that hard. I guess it's personal opinion so neither is wrong, but personally I would rather a full sub solution up front done right for the price I had available rather than waiting 18+ months and compromising for a higher price. Calibrating 4 high quality subs is easier than one anyways, the more you have the more they tend to fix themselves; calibration shouldn't be an excuse.
As mentioned previously, the room won't support four identical subs spread around the room.

Instead, the setup will be something like two JTR captivators up front, behind the screen, and then three thin, passive subs mounted in the basees of 7" deep columns on the side walls and back wall, like Triad Silver in wall, klipsch in wall, etc, or something like procella P10Si thin, passive subs.


Maybe I'm wrong, but using Audissey pro, I assume it will be much easier to calibrate two powered subs up front, hooked to sub1 and sub2, compared to calibrating two full range powered subs up front (presumably hooked to sub1 With a y cable) and three smaller, less capable passive subs (presumably connected to sub2 with a three way pigtail).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think calibration is a non issue.

In my room, the only place full sized, powered subs can be located is behind the screen wall.
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post #200 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Care to share any measurement graphs showing the VTF-3 Mk4 hitting 105dB @ 2M ground plane? I'll be shocked if have them considering the VTF-15H doesn't even hit 105dB.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=100&mset=110


HSU product will have with subs under $1000, but that's about it. Once you go over that $1500 threshold they won't hold a candle to a $2000 sub.

My measurement results closely replicated the results on Hsu's web site. With fairly conventional placement in a real room... sitting on the floor, close to the wall behind the projection screen, slightly off-center in the room. I do NOT attempt to determine the maximum SPL as I'm not particularly interested in damaging review products. If a sub reaches 105 dB at 20 Hz momentarily, that's PLENTY of bass power for any REASONABLE amount of bass in any reasonably sized room. I've had as many as 5 subwoofers in a room the size of the OPs room (in volume) and there was no real benefit in doing that versus the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 plus one more sub in the back of the room, placed similarly.


Hsu's measurement results for the VTF-3 Mk4 indicate a little more than 110 dB at 20 Hz with 1 or 2 ports open. I achieved 105 without trying to go any higher than that.


Measurement conditions are a HUGE factor in subwoofer measurements. A measurement database can be useful for comparisons, but not for ABSOLUTE guarantees/prediction of in-room performance. If you look at the bass database link, it shows the VTF-15 exceeding 105 dB short term and there's little need to sustain that high of an SPL for any length of time with real-world content. So to my way of thinking, your database link confirms that the VTF-15 is fully capable of 20 Hz at 105 dB (or more) short term. And AGAIN... that level of bass SPL isn't something people with normal expectations of bass performance would be unhappy with... and it's better than the capabilities of may subs that sell for much more.


And once again, I don't see ANYBODY offering the OP a better option for a commercially produced sub selling for $829 (VTF-15 in black, right now at a reduced price at the Hsu web site) or $639 (VTF-3 Mk4, also at a reduced price right now). If you have a better NON-DIY option for the OP's particular application, let's hear it instead of trying to downplay the actually excellent performance of two very modestly priced subwoofers. He has clearly stated he can only deal with 1, maybe 2 moderately priced subwoofers right now so stop trying to shove 4 or 5 expensive subwoofers (not necessarily you, but some are) down his throat when he's simply not going to do that right now. It's also silly to claim that 1 or 2 subwoofers can't produce satisfying bass in a room the size of the OPs room... I've done it before. 1 sub will give perfectly satisfactory bass at NORMAL (non-reference, reference level is too loud for most people, most of the time) listening levels in the room that size. I would RATHER have 2 subs in a room that size, but if only 1 sub is in the budget, movies are still going to be quite enjoyable since 99% of the soundtrack won't have any information below 50 Hz. That means about 1 minute 20 seconds of bass content below 50 Hz over the course of an entire movie. Most events where bass is present below 50 Hz will last less than 15 seconds for any single event. Sure it's nice to hear 16 Hz at decent levels but it is completely unnecessary to have 4 or 5 subs emitting 100 dB or more every time SOMETHING in the soundtrack happens below 50 Hz... in fact it is TEDIOUS in the extreme when deep bass has too much energy in any given room.


Finally, the OP is certainly free to try a single VTF-15 in his large-ish room and if bass seems too wimpy, a VTF-3 Mk2 or a second VTF-15 can be added later. Nobody says you must have everything ideal/perfect from day 1.

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Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post
My measurement results closely replicated the results on Hsu's web site. With fairly conventional placement in a real room... sitting on the floor, close to the wall behind the projection screen, slightly off-center in the room. I do NOT attempt to determine the maximum SPL as I'm not particularly interested in damaging review products. If a sub reaches 105 dB at 20 Hz momentarily, that's PLENTY of bass power for any REASONABLE amount of bass in any reasonably sized room. I've had as many as 5 subwoofers in a room the size of the OPs room (in volume) and there was no real benefit in doing that versus the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4 plus one more sub in the back of the room, placed similarly.


Hsu's measurement results for the VTF-3 Mk4 indicate a little more than 110 dB at 20 Hz with 1 or 2 ports open. I achieved 105 without trying to go any higher than that.


Measurement conditions are a HUGE factor in subwoofer measurements. A measurement database can be useful for comparisons, but not for ABSOLUTE guarantees/prediction of in-room performance. If you look at the bass database link, it shows the VTF-15 exceeding 105 dB short term and there's little need to sustain that high of an SPL for any length of time with real-world content. So to my way of thinking, your database link confirms that the VTF-15 is fully capable of 20 Hz at 105 dB (or more) short term. And AGAIN... that level of bass SPL isn't something people with normal expectations of bass performance would be unhappy with... and it's better than the capabilities of may subs that sell for much more.


And once again, I don't see ANYBODY offering the OP a better option for a commercially produced sub selling for $829 (VTF-15 in black, right now at a reduced price at the Hsu web site) or $639 (VTF-3 Mk4, also at a reduced price right now). If you have a better NON-DIY option for the OP's particular application, let's hear it instead of trying to downplay the actually excellent performance of two very modestly priced subwoofers. He has clearly stated he can only deal with 1, maybe 2 moderately priced subwoofers right now so stop trying to shove 4 or 5 expensive subwoofers (not necessarily you, but some are) down his throat when he's simply not going to do that right now. It's also silly to claim that 1 or 2 subwoofers can't produce satisfying bass in a room the size of the OPs room... I've done it before. 1 sub will give perfectly satisfactory bass at NORMAL (non-reference, reference level is too loud for most people, most of the time) listening levels in the room that size. I would RATHER have 2 subs in a room that size, but if only 1 sub is in the budget, movies are still going to be quite enjoyable since 99% of the soundtrack won't have any information below 50 Hz. That means about 1 minute 20 seconds of bass content below 50 Hz over the course of an entire movie. Most events where bass is present below 50 Hz will last less than 15 seconds for any single event. Sure it's nice to hear 16 Hz at decent levels but it is completely unnecessary to have 4 or 5 subs emitting 100 dB or more every time SOMETHING in the soundtrack happens below 50 Hz... in fact it is TEDIOUS in the extreme when deep bass has too much energy in any given room.


Finally, the OP is certainly free to try a single VTF-15 in his large-ish room and if bass seems too wimpy, a VTF-3 Mk2 or a second VTF-15 can be added later. Nobody says you must have everything ideal/perfect from day 1.
I don't disagree that the Hsu sub you mentioned is a great sub for the money, especially when compared against your typical subwoofer that an installer or dealer will sell you. The subs that are being recommended here are not those subs. Also, you are talking about in-room measurements. We are talking about ground plane measurements using the CEA-2010 standard. The subs mentioned here would take 2-3 VTF3-MK4 subs to match output-wise and the Hsu will be more limited in terms of extension. Most of this just comes down to the size of the box and driver. It (VTF 3 MK4) is a more limited sub vs a dual 15" sub box that is larger and has a more powerful amplifier. Or a sub in a larger enclosure with an 18" driver. All of these drivers are high quality drivers and there is nothing magical that Hsu is doing vs these other subs. If you measured the VTF3-MK4 using CEA-2010 standards it would not stack up to many of the subs measured here.
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
As mentioned previously, the room won't support four identical subs spread around the room.

Instead, the setup will be something like two JTR captivators up front, behind the screen, and then three thin, passive subs mounted in the basees of 7" deep columns on the side walls and back wall, like Triad Silver in wall, klipsch in wall, etc, or something like procella P10Si thin, passive subs.


Maybe I'm wrong, but using Audissey pro, I assume it will be much easier to calibrate two powered subs up front, hooked to sub1 and sub2, compared to calibrating two full range powered subs up front (presumably hooked to sub1 With a y cable) and three smaller, less capable passive subs (presumably connected to sub2 with a three way pigtail).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think calibration is a non issue.

In my room, the only place full sized, powered subs can be located is behind the screen wall.
I would talk to Dennis about calibrating the passive smaller subs with the larger subs. It can be done, but will certainly be more complicated. You will want to do lots of measuring and tweaking I have personally had mixed results trying to incorporate large and small subs in my room. I finally settled on 4 identical subs to get the bass I wanted throughout the seating area with EQ.
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
We are talking about ground plane measurements using the CEA-2010 standard.

I understand, that's why I specified I was using real in-room measurement results and comparing those to Hsu's published measurements on their web site. The CEA standard is fine for comparing subs to each other because you have a standardized measurement protocol. But that protocol doesn't necessarily translate to real in-room results. I'm really ONLY interested in what the sub does in real rooms... that's the bottom line. And once again, the OP wants a commercially available product, not something that has to be assembled from parts (either as a kit or by creating everything from scratch). That's why I specified that my measurements are done in real rooms, sub on the floor, one side of the sub relatively close (1 foot or so) from the front wall of the room (reinforcement from floor and 1 wall vs. corner placement which provides even more reinforcement. Also, the 2 rooms I've measured the VTF-3 Mk4 in have both had cement slab floors... 100% cement slab in the first, larger room, a basement with concrete block walls mostly "underground" with 3 large egress windows. The smaller room is 2/3 on a slab and 1/3 on a 1-foot raised floor with 1.5-inch plywood subfloors under carpet (yes, 1.5 inch subfloor plywood... I never knew it even existed but it's in this 1969-built house and it is stiff as all get-out (portions of the 1st floor are on slabs (family room and living room) while the rest of the first floor is raised a foot from the slabs..


Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
It (VTF 3 MK4) is a more limited sub vs a dual 15" sub box that is larger and has a more powerful amplifier. Or a sub in a larger enclosure with an 18" driver. All of these drivers are high quality drivers and there is nothing magical that Hsu is doing vs these other subs.

Of course. A Bentley Continental Speed is a nicer ride than a Jag or Cadillac sedan too, but stating the obvious really isn't helping the OP decide what to do with his predicament. The OP has the budget for 1 or 2 modestly priced subs... nothing more. My recommendation isn't for the "ultimate sub" --- it's simply a recommendation for the best or one of the best possible options at his budget point.


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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
If you measured the VTF3-MK4 using CEA-2010 standards it would not stack up to many of the subs measured here.

Once again, the database results indicate that the VTF-15 will exceed 105 dB short term (the most important criteria). That is not a result you get from a "toy" subwoofer expecially when compared to COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED SUBS SOLD AT RETAIL either via the internet or via dealers. My results indicate that 105 dB in a real room is quite easily achieved if you have measurement gear, know how to use it, and can compare the various tuning options on the VTF subs to optimize bass for the room in question. Most commercial (and DIY subs for that matter) lack the tuning options the VTF subs have. Sure you can tune the DIY sub while you are making it, but if you miss, you typically have to do something more than just turn a knob or plug or unplug a port to get more tuning options that keep you from having to modify the DIY sub in some physical or electronic/electrical way.


If you aren't going to listen to your home theater sound at anything higher than 95 dB or maybe 98 dB peaks (pretty typical and lower than reference level), you don't need to overkill to get good bass. You can do FINE with carefully selected commercial products. What is a shame is how many commercially manufactured subs are so much worse than the Hsu subs at much higher prices.


So the point here isn't what the most ungodly sub is for $X-thousand, it's what can the OP buy commercially to get the best results with a modest budget.


I know it may be difficult to stay focused on what fits the OP's needs right now... I'm just trying to stay in that mode and not worry about the fact that a $4000 DIY project can be used as a pile driver to sink posts for beach houses or boat docks many feet into the ground just from vibrating the post at very low frequencies.

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post #204 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I would talk to Dennis about calibrating the passive smaller subs with the larger subs. It can be done, but will certainly be more complicated. You will want to do lots of measuring and tweaking I have personally had mixed results trying to incorporate large and small subs in my room. I finally settled on 4 identical subs to get the bass I wanted throughout the seating area with EQ.
Bingo. I have talked to Dennis and since in phase I of my equipment plans I won't be going the DSP route and having his guys come in to calibrate it, but instead will be doing Audissey, his recommendation is to stick to 7.1 our 7.2 in short term.

Going four identical subs is not an option in the room. Hence I'm looking for my best single or dual sub option that will fit behind my screen wall.

The more I look at dimensions and my space available behind screen wall, I think i have to stick with sealed subs.

Best choices right now appear to be:

two Ryhtmic F25's
two PSA XV30Fse
Two SVS SB13 Ultra
One Seaton HP+ (add a slave in 6-12 months)
One JTR S2 (add a second in 6-12 months)

Phase I, will be calibrated Werth Audissey Pro by a local integrator or me (can probably buy the pro kit for just a little more than one calibration by them).

Then, in 12-18 months I'll add the passive subs around the room and have Erskine's group come in to set it all up and properly calibrate it.
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post #205 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
This is a 12-18 month stop gap solution. After that time, I would move to two large subs up front, and three smaller subs spread around the room (in columns, one on each side, one on back wall - limited to < 7" in depth). The primary subs up front would still do the lions share low content, the smaller balancing subs around the room would improve the above 35-40 Hz bass.

The issue with going to plan B right now isn't even just the cost of the three extra subs, but the complexity of trying to calibrate two large subs and three balancing subs using just Audissey Pro. When I move to plan B, I will also switch to DSPs and let Erskine's group do the calibration.

So, I'm looking for a 12-18 month stop gap solution that will also hopefully be the front subs i can use for the long-term (along with the additional subs I add later).

Fair enough......and makes sense.

BTW, I've owned S2..........fine sub but you'e much better off going with a pair of Submersives for similar money ie. Master/slave configuration.

Just so you know, a pair of my DIY UXL's performed better than my JTR S2............quads are unbelievable!

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post #206 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 07:24 PM
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@ Doug Blackburn


You state 105dB at 20hz is sufficient for most everyone.


Because this is an enthusiast forum - you find many of us would say 105dB at 20hz is insufficient.
Here's why: I'd wager most audio enthusiasts - with home theater systems run their subs at LEAST 6dB hot from the mains. Heck some of these guys run their subs 20dB hot in the 20hz frequency range with some pretty serious house curves. But let's keep the conversation just 6dB hot because I'd wager it's VERY typical of most enthusiast home theaters (not all).


Reference level audio calls for 115dB peaks. Running your subs 6dB hot means you are already taxing the sub (you say if it can hit 105dB at 20hz it's sufficient) at -16dB from reference level main audio. I personally watch most of my movies at -12dB from reference with the subs (give or take) about 6dB hot - just any old casual throw in a movie and watch it. It's my preference. Even at -16dB for kid/family viewing I don't want my subs at their absolute limits, compressing, high levels of distortion, borderline port noise, etc.


Also when you start saying the HSU beat most any sub under $3k - it's just patently untrue. I don't even know how to figure how many VTF-3 MK4 it'd take to equal one JTR Oorbit Shifter. --- perhaps eight? The Rythmik FV-15HP is a superior sub, the SVS PB13 ultra is a superior sub. The Seaton Submersive HP is a superior sub, the PSA Triax is a superior sub. The Funk Audio subs based on the LMS-5400 or in house 18" driver are superior, and any of the JTR subwoofer offerings are a superior offerings. All are under $3k, all are internet direct. All are HSU competitors. The HSU VTF-15H is a great sub. It's actually the sub that really revved up my interest in this hobby - but the HSU subs are not where it ends.

--- Even in the same price ballpark Outlaw makes a sub that is pretty much an equivalent sub for an equivalent price as the HSU VTF-3 MK4. Epic is no more - but the Epic Empire was an equivalent sub for the same money. HSU is pretty par for the course with Internet Direct offerings in my opinion. Good solid choice, reliable company, quality product, no problem recommending them --- but best for $3k? ..... No way.




When I do demos at my place for enthusiasts who pass through --- I run the subs about 4-6dB hot and I like to play quick demos at reference levels. That requires 120ish dB subwoofer levels at the seats.-- I don't want my subs compressing at the lowest frequencies, making bad sounds, or ducking out. I want that tactile, hard hitting, smile inducing bass that makes the guest go WOW! I like comments from my guests like one I received about the growling bear in Brave "My fight or flight reaction kicked in - I'm all sweaty and my heart is racing" A female guest, in a group of three strangers (avsforum members who wanted to come check out the equipment) who came to demo my theater last night asked if I had fans in my subwoofer boxes -- or what was making all the air movement? Many of my guest just smile or involuntarily giggle when they hear what the the JTR Captivators will do in a movie (20hz native tuned ported 18"s).


I will admit to always enjoying the air movement, or pant shaking comments. I received both last night in my guest's demo.


Here is an example demo video to show a bit of what i'm talking about with my JTR Captivators.


Here is another:


Here is another:
Mfusick, craig john and GetGray like this.

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post #207 of 228 Old 07-19-2014, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Fair enough......and makes sense.

BTW, I've owned S2..........fine sub but you'e much better off going with a pair of Submersives for similar money ie. Master/slave configuration.

Just so you know, a pair of my DIY UXL's performed better than my JTR S2............quads are unbelievable!
I've read through some of your posts when you were trying to get the S2 lined out and then deciding it wasn't enough for the room. Your room is looking good by the way.
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Bingo. I have talked to Dennis and since in phase I of my equipment plans I won't be going the DSP route and having his guys come in to calibrate it, but instead will be doing Audissey, his recommendation is to stick to 7.1 our 7.2 in short term.

Going four identical subs is not an option in the room. Hence I'm looking for my best single or dual sub option that will fit behind my screen wall.

The more I look at dimensions and my space available behind screen wall, I think i have to stick with sealed subs.

Best choices right now appear to be:

two Ryhtmic F25's
two PSA XV30Fse
Two SVS SB13 Ultra
One Seaton HP+ (add a slave in 6-12 months)
One JTR S2 (add a second in 6-12 months)

Phase I, will be calibrated Werth Audissey Pro by a local integrator or me (can probably buy the pro kit for just a little more than one calibration by them).

Then, in 12-18 months I'll add the passive subs around the room and have Erskine's group come in to set it all up and properly calibrate it.
If you're going sealed don't rule out the XS30se, I had two of the original XS30's and they were awesome subs. Two would definitely have more output then a single SubM HP. Which ironically was one of the subs that I looked at buying before getting my PSA XS30's. And now the PSA has upgraded the drivers used in XS30 it's even a better sub now IMO. A single XS30 is on par with a SVS SB13-U for output while still costing $350 less.
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post #209 of 228 Old 07-20-2014, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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If you're going sealed don't rule out the XS30se, I had two of the original XS30's and they were awesome subs. Two would definitely have more output then a single SubM HP. Which ironically was one of the subs that I looked at buying before getting my PSA XS30's. And now the PSA has upgraded the drivers used in XS30 it's even a better sub now IMO. A single XS30 is on par with a SVS SB13-U for output while still costing $350 less.
That's the PSA sub I meant to list, but listed the vented one by mistake. The XS30se is on my short list.

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Sorry......not trying to be rude or insensitive......but you are making no sense at all. Erskine Group designed room and considering one sub in 4800 cf room?

Sorry, one wont cut it...........
Two wont cut either......

You should be looking at a MINIMUM of three or four subs whatever brand you choose to go with.
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