The OFFICIAL Pioneer Dolby Atmos Speaker Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 07:11 PM
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Ok guys here's all the info we have been waiting on...........

http://www.cnet.com/news/pioneer-deb...tarts-at-4750/
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post #32 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 07:45 PM
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I am not encouraged by that press release. Intrinsic in Atmos is equalization that corrects for room and speaker placement. How is Atmos' room correction and Pioneer's MCACC going to function side-by-side? Also what about Pioneer's recent buyout from an equity firm, which is simultaneous with this Atmos stuff? It looks like it could get real messy. Is this version of Atmos going to EQ multiple subs like the cinema version? What are "Atmos enabled speaker modules"? and how are they going to be anywhere near as good as real ceiling speakers? This is all very worrisome for someone who was hoping to get a genuine Atmos system. How neutered is this consumer system?
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post #33 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 09:15 PM
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Are these new Pioneer Dolby-Atmos speakers considered to be low-sensitivity speakers (86 for floorstanders and 85 for bookshelves and center)? Also, does one see many 4 Ohm speakers like these new Pioneer speakers for HT these days?
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post #34 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
The number of speakers is getting a bit daft.
Just 7 speakers: 3 fronts, 2 surrounds, 2 heights.

That will let you separate sounds in front of you vs sound around you vs sounds above you.

Sanjay
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post #35 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 09:42 PM
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Exclamation

Here are the corrected prices:

SP-EBS73-LR Bookshelf Speakers - $699 (Each)

SP-EFS73 Floorstanding Speaker - $749 (Pair)

SP-EC73 Center Channel Speaker - $399

SW-E10 Subwoofer - $599
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post #36 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
I am not encouraged by that press release. Intrinsic in Atmos is equalization that corrects for room and speaker placement. How is Atmos' room correction and Pioneer's MCACC going to function side-by-side? Also what about Pioneer's recent buyout from an equity firm, which is simultaneous with this Atmos stuff? It looks like it could get real messy. Is this version of Atmos going to EQ multiple subs like the cinema version? What are "Atmos enabled speaker modules"? and how are they going to be anywhere near as good as real ceiling speakers? This is all very worrisome for someone who was hoping to get a genuine Atmos system. How neutered is this consumer system?
Hi,

Atmos does not include room correction. We have updated MCACC (MCACC Pro) to include room calibration for either ceiling mount speakers or the Dolby Enabled speakers that we announced today. The Equity firms investment does not affect these products, it allows Pioneer to create new categories of products that we are currently not in. As far as multiple subs, our new MCACC Pro does allow for two independent subwoofers be used in the same room, each with it's own EQ settings.

As far as the Atmos Enabled top firing speakers, hearing is believing, I have heard dozens of demos comparing in-ceiling speakers compared to the Dolby Enabled top firing drivers. In the proper room ( Room with a flat ceiling that is between 8 to 15 feet tall), I would choose the Atmos Enabled speakers every time. I know that people are not going to just believe me on this one, however after you hear I think you will agree with me (I was very skeptical before I heard it as well). I will have Andrew post his impressions of the two methods when we get back to Long Beach.

In mid to late July we will host an open house at our office in Long Beach for people to listen to the Dolby Enabled speakers compared to the AJ ceiling speakers.

Don't worry too much... Wait until you can get a proper demonstration and I believe you will be a happy camper.....

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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post #37 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Here are the corrected prices:

SP-EBS73-LR Bookshelf Speakers - $699 (Each)

SP-EFS73 Floorstanding Speaker - $749 (Pair)

SP-EC73 Center Channel Speaker - $399

SW-E10 Subwoofer - $599

You have the Bookshelf and Floorstanding speaker prices reversed.

The Bookshelf speakers are $750 a pair and the Floor Standing speakers at $700 each.

Thanks,

Chris Walker

Last edited by Walkamo; 06-25-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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post #38 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post
MiGosh! Talk about cheapening a brand. I'm writing about the Dolby Atmos brand, not Pioneer in this case.

Usually it takes a little while for a technological innovation like Atmos to work its way into the consumer market, first at the high end then eventually to the bottom, but this seems to be a direct leap to the bottom.

Atmos systems are installed in carefully sized and treated environments with a lot of technical expertise, but hey! now I can buy an "Atmos" system-in-a-box so to speak and stick it in my living room. Somehow I'm not seeing the "bounce the heights off the ceiling" as part of the original design.

Sorry if that assessment seems harsh, but...
Hi Filecat,

I had the same concerns about the bouncing the sound off of the ceilings as you did, however after I heard it I was quite surprised how well it worked. I then ran off to grab Andrew so he could hear the same demo (This was about a year ago at a Dolby Meeting). He scoffed when I told him about it, however he was just as impressed as I was.

I know people won't just believe me on this one, however don't dismiss the idea until you have had a chance to hear it. I really surprised me. To the point that we (Myself and Andrew) decided to build products based on this idea. I can honestly tell you that after the demo we did not see a reason for the ceiling speakers if your room met the requirements for the top drivers (Flat Ceiling with a height of 8 to 14 feet).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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post #39 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi Filecat,

I had the same concerns about the bouncing the sound off of the ceilings as you did, however after I heard it I was quite surprised how well it worked. I then ran off to grab Andrew so he could hear the same demo (This was about a year ago at a Dolby Meeting). He scoffed when I told him about it, however he was just as impressed as I was.

I know people won't just believe me on this one, however don't dismiss the idea until you have had a chance to hear it. I really surprised me. To the point that we (Myself and Andrew) decided to build products based on this idea. I can honestly tell you that after the demo we did not see a reason for the ceiling speakers if your room met the requirements for the top drivers (Flat Ceiling with a height of 8 to 14 feet).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Did it matter what sounds/frequency range you were bouncing off the ceiling?

For example, did you have a demo where a male/female voice was panned from a direct-firing speaker to a sound-bouncing speaker and back again? If so, did it maintain timbre match?

Also, what about music? Or will mixers never put music through the ceiling speakers?
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post #40 of 715 Old 06-25-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi,

Atmos does not include room correction. We have updated MCACC (MCACC Pro) to include room calibration for either ceiling mount speakers or the Dolby Enabled speakers that we announced today. The Equity firms investment does not affect these products, it allows Pioneer to create new categories of products that we are currently not in. As far as multiple subs, our new MCACC Pro does allow for two independent subwoofers be used in the same room, each with it's own EQ settings.
I am glad to hear Pioneer is finally getting serious about bass management, too bad it is decades late to that game. Please tell me you guys are finally doing something for frequencies below 63 Hz! As for Atmos and room calibration, my source for that. Perhaps it is not being implemented in the consumer Atmos, which is further evidence of it being watered down from the real thing.

I will have to hear the Pioneer speakers to be convinced of the technology, until then I will remain skeptical.

As for the equity firm buyout, we shall see how it affects the home audio segment of Pioneer. Given Pioneer's share values since 2012 and the timing of both this buyout and the Atmos announcement, you can understand the cause for concern. A few searches on Baring Private Equity Asia does nothing to reassure me, but I do hope you are right about merely expanding product lines.

Sorry if I sound harsh, I am a fan of Pioneer and have two of your Elite receivers.
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post #41 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 02:37 AM
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Although I am generally enthused about the possibilities Atmos and object-oriented audio tech may offer in the home environment, the proof will be in the implementation pudding--and whether any given implementation will surmount the financial cost/sonic benefit hump. (I'll just ignore the Spousal Acceptance Factor metrics, eh?)

Accordingly, it's appropriate to look at Pioneer's just-announced candidates, in a few possible configurations that may be problematic, particularly to the consumer pocketbook.

Assuming one buys the basic 5.1.4 system, with a center, L+R (whether floorstanders or bookshelves), and SL + SR (whether floorstanders or bookshelves)--jibing with historically similar adoption rates for "yesterday's" (literally!) surround sound systems whereby 5.1 systems vastly outnumber 7.1, let alone 9.x or 11.x (e.g. via Audyssey DSX, etc.)--then Pioneer Elite offers a simple plug-n-play solution for most.

But what if you want a 5.1.4 system, but don't want to use the center speaker--preferring three identical speakers across the front (whether floorstanders or bookshelves)? One is forced to pay extra for the top-mounted concentric drivers. Or, come to think of it, even more with the bookshelf-as-center option, as one would have to spring for a whole pair while just needing one unit...and one without an extra midrange-tweeter module, at that.

Similarly, 7.1.x systems using the Pioneer products offered force one to buy two pairs of the bookshelves or floorstanders for surround duty, when the top-mounted drivers of one pair are unnecessary--unused but paid-for. And paid-pretty- dearly-for, at that; they surely leverage Mr. Jones' considerable engineering expertise (see below), but undoubtedly are relatively costly to manufacture, compared to non-concentric driver pairs This all assumes one wants to use only speakers from this new line in a complete system, for obvious timbre-matching and dispersion benefits.

A simple solution would be to also offer versions of the floorstanders and bookshelves without the top-mount Atmos concentric pairs--and singly, in the case of the bookshelves. Of course, these presumably would be cheaper--and also would be fantastic for those looking for non-Atmos surround sound options: because it's the lure of the new concentric drivers that's the BIG news, today--and REALLY should float our boats around here.

I've agreed with several commenters here at AVS over the years, who've longed wistfully for Mr. Jones to apply his considerable expertise, from his stints at KEF and TAD, to making a Pioneer concentric-driver-based speaker. That time's arrived, and I'm excited to hear them.

However, I'm not so enthused about having to pay for extra (expensive) drivers. Also, I do assume I'll find them wonderful, sound-wise, and'll want to see this driver system employed ubiquitously through the line to the bottom! Anyone else? So just make versions without the top Atmos drivers, guys!

A further observation: yes, these are "Elite" in engineering design...but look like the same bargain-bin "black-oak" vinyl wrap over MDF as the current AJ/Pioneer designs--at a relatively huge price premium. I don't know that the retail price points match the aesthetics, given the huge competition at this price level.

Maybe some different vinyl wraps? White? (My first choice, as otherwise I'm gonna have to break out the white vinyl automotive paint and make a mess...) Cherry? Oak? Teak? It's all colored, textured vinyl. Shouldn't break the bank...aside from the "costs" of compelling/coercing retailers/distributors to stock multiple SKUs...

Just my latenight insomniac first thoughts/miscellaneous ramblings after stumbling upon this news...it'll be interesting to see how other speaker manufacturers present Atmos designs, as there clearly will be room for different interpretations/products--some perhaps radically new. Meanwhile, if Pioneer's Atmos interpretation is what has helped AJ get this concentric driver unit into initial production--perhaps, rather a Trojan Horse?--(and assuming we love what we now can only anticipate) we all should rejoice for Pioneer speakers in general, oblivious to the overall fate of Dolby Atmos in the home.

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post #42 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 02:55 AM
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P.S. A further thought occurs: Will/how will systems using Audyssey DSX integrate, processing-wise and speaker-setup-wise? Can Dolby Atmos and DSX processing be cascaded? And/or: Can the up-firing Pioneer units be used as "height" channels in other processing schemes such as DSX?

Questions for first reviewers, as presumably anyone who's invested in 9.x or 11.x systems will be ideal customers of Atmos--i.e. they already own high-multi-channel SS systems--but surely WON'T want to have, say, a 15.x.4 system dispersed around the room, just to get Heights and/or Wides when DSX processing is wanted, and then only to leave them idle with Atmos...ah, questions, questions!
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post #43 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi,

Atmos does not include room correction. We have updated MCACC (MCACC Pro) to include room calibration for either ceiling mount speakers or the Dolby Enabled speakers that we announced today. The Equity firms investment does not affect these products, it allows Pioneer to create new categories of products that we are currently not in. As far as multiple subs, our new MCACC Pro does allow for two independent subwoofers be used in the same room, each with it's own EQ settings.

As far as the Atmos Enabled top firing speakers, hearing is believing, I have heard dozens of demos comparing in-ceiling speakers compared to the Dolby Enabled top firing drivers. In the proper room ( Room with a flat ceiling that is between 8 to 15 feet tall), I would choose the Atmos Enabled speakers every time. I know that people are not going to just believe me on this one, however after you hear I think you will agree with me (I was very skeptical before I heard it as well). I will have Andrew post his impressions of the two methods when we get back to Long Beach.

In mid to late July we will host an open house at our office in Long Beach for people to listen to the Dolby Enabled speakers compared to the AJ ceiling speakers.

Don't worry too much... Wait until you can get a proper demonstration and I believe you will be a happy camper.....

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Unless I could find a way to raise the ceiling in my apartment by 16" It's going to have to be ceiling speakers. My ceiling is 6'8" so that rules out pioneer speakers.
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post #44 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 08:10 AM
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***I had the same concerns about the bouncing the sound off of the ceilings as you did, however after I heard it I was quite surprised how well it worked. I then ran off to grab Andrew so he could hear the same demo *** He scoffed when I told him about it, however he was just as impressed as I was. *** [D]on't dismiss the idea until you have had a chance to hear it. I really surprised me.***
First, it's nice to see another player using concentric drivers in a speaker priced in reach of "normal people." (And also a reasonably priced center channel that's not one of those risible toppled-MTM kludges!) I look forward to hearing the Atmos stuff when I get a chance.

But I have a technical question for you (or Andrew, if he has the time/inclination to jump in).

It appears from pictures at least that the concentric MF/HF in the mains channel is the same part as the concentric up-firing height channel. One thing I've noticed about previous (TAD, Pio EX) concentrics is that you've targeted a fairly wide pattern. For example, here is the normalized horizontal off-axis response of the TAD Evolution One as measured by Stereophile:


(I could've used Stereophile’s normalized horizontal off-axis plot for the TAD CR1 or Pio S-1EX as well. The E1 was just the first search hit.)

Compare that to KEF's speakers, which generally target a narrower pattern exemplified by the normalized horizontal off-axis response from the KEF LS50 measured under like conditions:


(I could've used Stereophile’s normalized horizontal off-axis response plot for any of their speakers; this one was just the most recently measured.)

Did you target the same wide pattern as on previous Pioneer EX and TAD concentric drivers for the Atmos speakers, or in your view is a narrower pattern better suited for Atmos HT use? I ask because it intuitively seems to me that for the upfiring speaker to work as intended, it should have narrow enough pattern control to make the first arrival very quiet compared to the ceiling reflection.

(Also, as an aside, these multiple-channel-in-one box speakers seem to me like the perfect opportunity for consumeer-marketed speakers to ditch antiquated binding posts for the modern 4-pole Speakon terminal!)

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post #45 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 08:49 AM
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I'm glad this thread got started. We've been having speaker discussion in the SC-LX88 thread it belongs here now

Steve
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post #46 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
I can honestly tell you that after the demo we did not see a reason for the ceiling speakers if your room met the requirements for the top drivers (Flat Ceiling with a height of 8 to 14 feet).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Chris

Can the new speakers be used as an add-on module just by connecting the top driver to the ht terminals? The digitaltrends.com writeup yesterday implied that the top driver was a separate connection. Could this be another option for some folks using existing speakers they may not want to part with, or planar & e-stats for example.

I could see placing 2-4 on them on stands along side walls just for the overhead component.

Can you elaborate when you get the chance?

Thanks!
Steve

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post #47 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 09:59 AM
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Well now to get Atmos we need to get a new receiver and now new speakers in order to have it work correctly. That isn't happening for me.
You obviously have to get additional speakers for a system that relies on additional speakers. But the spec caters for just 2 on-ceiling or in-ceiling top speakers, so the additional cost is reasonable for the benefits of Atmos IMO.
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post #48 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 11:23 AM
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You obviously have to get additional speakers for a system that relies on additional speakers. But the spec caters for just 2 on-ceiling or in-ceiling top speakers, so the additional cost is reasonable for the benefits of Atmos IMO.
And most likely a new AVR. A higher end model at that. Its not as if its as cheap as just going out and spending $50 on a pair of speakers.
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post #49 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 11:29 AM
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Nobody is quite sure yet. There is some consensus that monopoles all around would be best for Atmos and object based audio because you are supposed to localize the sounds. Dipole surround speakers were intended to make the surround effects harder to localize (aka diffuse) on purpose to help simulate cinema surround (which are typically several monopoles down each side of the auditorium) in the home environment. After discrete 5.1 formats became available (DD & DTS) the lines blurred on the topic of surround speakers. Depending on who you ask you will get different answers as to what type of speaker was best for surrounds. Some people like it staying diffuse, and others like to be able to pinpoint where the sounds are coming from. When the 5.1 audio formats hit the market (SACD & DVD-Audio) the general consensus from my experience was that most people preferred monopoles as the surround speaker. The bigger problem there was that while 'typical' positioning for side surrounds for movies is 90-110 degrees, a lot of people (myself included) liked going out to about 135 degrees when listening to 5.1 music. Then you add in surround back speakers for 7.1 audio (Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA) and again depending on who you talk to as to what is recommended for those. In my experience again, while I have seen people use dipoles and/or bipoles for both side and back surrounds, the majority of the people I know use dipoles for side surrounds and monopoles for rear surrounds (this is what I personally have). So I too am very curious how dipoles will fit into the Atmos equation. If you have the ability to select which method your surround speakers play back, you should be golden, but best GUESS at this point would be monopole. Hopefully we get these answers soon.
Thank you for that explanation. I run my speakers right now the way you do dipole on the sides and monopole in the rears. Nice to see someone take the time to give a good answer besides a wise a-- one. Thanks again.
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post #50 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 11:31 AM
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You obviously have to get additional speakers for a system that relies on additional speakers. But the spec caters for just 2 on-ceiling or in-ceiling top speakers, so the additional cost is reasonable for the benefits of Atmos IMO.
Agreed 100% especially since I have already two in-ceiling speakers VOG

I just need two extra so I can do 9.2.2
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post #51 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 11:33 AM
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Agreed 100% especially since I have already two in-ceiling speakers VOG

I just need two extra so I can do 9.2.2
You already have an Atmos capable AVR?
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post #52 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You obviously have to get additional speakers for a system that relies on additional speakers. But the spec caters for just 2 on-ceiling or in-ceiling top speakers, so the additional cost is reasonable for the benefits of Atmos IMO.
Well if I take my back surrounds and use them as heights I can change my sides and then the heights to monopole and be good to go Right?
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post #53 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 12:25 PM
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You already have an Atmos capable AVR?
Nope just getting ready
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post #54 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 12:53 PM
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Agreed 100% especially since I have already two in-ceiling speakers VOG

I just need two extra so I can do 9.2.2
Correction, 9.1.2 No such thing as .2 or above for LFE. It doesn't matter if you have 10 subs, there is still only one LFE channel

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post #55 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 01:02 PM
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And most likely a new AVR. A higher end model at that. Its not as if its as cheap as just going out and spending $50 on a pair of speakers.
Higher end model? The Onkyo 636 is $699 MSRP, street prices will be lower. And going from 5 speakers to 7 (adding a pair of heights) isn't unreasonable.
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post #56 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 01:37 PM
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Newbie here with a quick question for Mr. Walker (AKA Walkamo). Are there future plans for non-Atmos versions of the SP-EFS73 and SP-EBS73? These speakers look great but I'd love to have a slightly lower price point version without the top speaker for music listening in stereo and not for AV.

Thank you,
Beau
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post #57 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 02:20 PM
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And another question to Mr. Walker (AKA Walkamo), if I may.

How does a room correction system like MCACC set distance for the up-firing speakers? Second question will be how are levels set? Care to elaborate on these issues? Thanks in advance.
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post #58 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
And most likely a new AVR. A higher end model at that. Its not as if its as cheap as just going out and spending $50 on a pair of speakers.
No need to buy a high end AVR to get Atmos. Onkyo, for one, has an Atmos unit that comes in for less than $700. I can't recall the model number but it will be easily found.
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post #59 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TCARCIO View Post
Well if I take my back surrounds and use them as heights I can change my sides and then the heights to monopole and be good to go Right?
Not entirely sure what you are asking me. For Atmos you will need at least 2 top speakers (in or on-ceiling) assuming you don't opt for the 'Atmos-enabled' speakers. Monopoles seem to be looking better for Atmos than dipoles or bipoles.
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post #60 of 715 Old 06-26-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Higher end model? The Onkyo 636 is $699 MSRP, street prices will be lower. And going from 5 speakers to 7 (adding a pair of heights) isn't unreasonable.
Perhaps not higher end but certainly not entry level.
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