The OFFICIAL Pioneer Dolby Atmos Speaker Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
This is mostly a non-issue. The actual problem is what your room does to the signal...
...In rooms the ideal "transient" response goes from this...



...to something like that...

I get your point, and it's a good one. But given that the room affects the output so significantly, wouldn't you still want the cleanest signal outputted before that process occurs?

One of the arguments for a sealed enclosure is better transients.

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post #242 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 10:23 AM
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Andrew will be on next week's Home Theater Geeks.
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post #243 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
My intuition is that if there is any effect at all it would be small compared to the time domain effects from modal ringing in the room, but I'm sure Mr. Jones could give you a more complete answer.
The idea of small subwoofer drivers being "faster" than large ones is often stated, but is not true.
If by fast we mean greater acceleration, then this is certainly not true. Acceleration is governed by force and mass. Higher mass means more force needs to be applied to achieve a certain acceleration. This is not rocket science (well, actually this principle is used in rocket science, but...!). It simply reflects the obvious issue that higher mass drivers are less efficient in their passband.
The frequency response in the passband of a driver, before cone breakup, is governed only by force and mass, so with sufficient force you can get identical response. The transient or impulse response is simply a reflection of the frequency response, related by the Hilbert transform. A fast impulse response simply means that you have an extended frequency response. Now it may be easier to engineer a smaller woofer to have a better high frequency response, but this is irrelevant, because the high frequency response is of no concern, it's a subwoofer!! It will get filtered so that it does not reproduce high frequencies.
By definition then, the system defined as subwoofer and filter, will have a transient response limited by the bandwidth of the applied filter.
Of course, there is a further factor that effects "perceived" transient response, and why bigger woofers appear to be slower. Its because they nearly always go down lower in frequency, as it is often easier to get extended low frequency response out of a large woofer in a larger box, than from a small woofer in a small box.
The additional low frequencies will alter your perception of bass, and often make it appear to sound slower. This is a simple psychoacoustic effect, and is nothing to do with the subwoofer per se.
Music signals contain both fundamentals and harmonics in certain relationships. However, the relationships are not static with time. The fundamental may take longer to reach it's maximum level once excited than will some of the higher harmonics. The tonality will change in a complex manner with time. Now, if you reduce the level of the fundamental with respect to the harmonics, you will change this characteristic tonality signature, and often the music will sound faster and more upbeat as a result. You can do the same by filtering off the bass signals.
In fact, musicians recognize this phenomenal, of bass notes taking longer to "explode" relative to the plucking of the string on a string bass for example, and will alter their timing to compensate, the alteration changing as they go down to lower notes.
Add to all of this the effect of the room modes, and "fast bass" is not something to put at the top of your worry list!


Regards


Andrew
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post #244 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 12:21 PM
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Andrew, what about the center channel - how much better is it, let's say compared to your entry level speaker SC22? As you know for some of us everything begins with a good center...while the rest follows
Does the new design offer anything uniquely, besides a smooth seamless blend with Atmos? If I happen to use a different Atmos-enabled receiver which relies on crossovers, is there an optimal setting that you suggest...and placement height, as well, without having objects coming from the top dimesnsional space, interfere too much? thanks.

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post #245 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
The idea of small subwoofer drivers being "faster" than large ones is often stated, but is not true.
If by fast we mean greater acceleration, then this is certainly not true. Acceleration is governed by force and mass. Higher mass means more force needs to be applied to achieve a certain acceleration. This is not rocket science (well, actually this principle is used in rocket science, but...!). It simply reflects the obvious issue that higher mass drivers are less efficient in their passband.
The frequency response in the passband of a driver, before cone breakup, is governed only by force and mass, so with sufficient force you can get identical response. The transient or impulse response is simply a reflection of the frequency response, related by the Hilbert transform. A fast impulse response simply means that you have an extended frequency response. Now it may be easier to engineer a smaller woofer to have a better high frequency response, but this is irrelevant, because the high frequency response is of no concern, it's a subwoofer!! It will get filtered so that it does not reproduce high frequencies.
By definition then, the system defined as subwoofer and filter, will have a transient response limited by the bandwidth of the applied filter.
Of course, there is a further factor that effects "perceived" transient response, and why bigger woofers appear to be slower. Its because they nearly always go down lower in frequency, as it is often easier to get extended low frequency response out of a large woofer in a larger box, than from a small woofer in a small box.
The additional low frequencies will alter your perception of bass, and often make it appear to sound slower. This is a simple psychoacoustic effect, and is nothing to do with the subwoofer per se.
Music signals contain both fundamentals and harmonics in certain relationships. However, the relationships are not static with time. The fundamental may take longer to reach it's maximum level once excited than will some of the higher harmonics. The tonality will change in a complex manner with time. Now, if you reduce the level of the fundamental with respect to the harmonics, you will change this characteristic tonality signature, and often the music will sound faster and more upbeat as a result. You can do the same by filtering off the bass signals.
In fact, musicians recognize this phenomenal, of bass notes taking longer to "explode" relative to the plucking of the string on a string bass for example, and will alter their timing to compensate, the alteration changing as they go down to lower notes.
Add to all of this the effect of the room modes, and "fast bass" is not something to put at the top of your worry list!


Regards


Andrew
I'm sorry, Andrew. Could you repeat that?

But seriously, I wasn't saying that a smaller speaker by definition was faster. My comment was in response to another poster's idea of using two subwoofers, and in that regard I brought up excursion.

Obviously if a system depended on a single (small) subwoofer for its bass output, you could have a small sub with significant excursion, which could impact transient response.

Conversely, I would think you could divide the output between smaller subs, producing its effect with lesser excursion.

I am no expert by any means, just an inquisitive mind asking questions, and it is great to have your input on this thread.
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post #246 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Nope... These are all developed and engineered in our Long Beach office. In my opinion these are much better speakers that the S-71 series...

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Thank you for your reply Chris. I looked up the S-71s after someone recommended them in another forum, He was located in Scotland. The few comments I found about them are very positive, so if the new Elite speakers are even better, you surely will have a winner on your hands!

Best regards,
Mike
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post #247 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
... musicians recognize this phenomenal, of bass notes taking longer to "explode" relative to the plucking of the string on a string bass for example, and will alter their timing to compensate, the alteration changing as they go down to lower notes...
In musician circles it's often referred to as "playing on the top of the beat" (i.e. same tempo but slightly ahead of the beat) or "on the bottom of the beat (i.e. slightly behind). Being very good at this is part of what defines the better bass players, both acoustic and electric.

Every once in a while my errant youth as a musician rears it's ugly head
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post #248 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
In musician circles it's often referred to as "playing on the top of the beat" (i.e. same tempo but slightly ahead of the beat) or "on the bottom of the beat (i.e. slightly behind). Being very good at this is part of what defines the better bass players, both acoustic and electric.

Every once in a while my errant youth as a musician rears it's ugly head
That's pretty interesting.

Nothing errant about being a musician...
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post #249 of 690 Old 07-05-2014, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I'm sorry, Andrew. Could you repeat that?

But seriously, I wasn't saying that a smaller speaker by definition was faster. My comment was in response to another poster's idea of using two subwoofers, and in that regard I brought up excursion.

Obviously if a system depended on a single (small) subwoofer for its bass output, you could have a small sub with significant excursion, which could impact transient response.

Conversely, I would think you could divide the output between smaller subs, producing its effect with lesser excursion.

I am no expert by any means, just an inquisitive mind asking questions, and it is great to have your input on this thread.
Remember the BG Radia BGX subwoofer system? http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...bwoofer-system

4 modules of 4" subwoofers with 1100 watts per pair achieving THX Ultra2 certification and having a -6db point of 20hz. Pretty impressive in my book. $7000 for the system! Also impressive in my book. For the right amount of money, you can get any size subwoofer to do what you want and get as many as you want.

I always wanted to hear this setup.

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post #250 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I get your point, and it's a good one. But given that the room affects the output so significantly, wouldn't you still want the cleanest signal outputted before that process occurs?

One of the arguments for a sealed enclosure is better transients.
Yes but you have to EQ a sub anyway so in the end it all comes down to your specific room, setup and SPL requirements.

Markus

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post #251 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 09:00 AM
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Remember the BG Radia BGX subwoofer system? http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...bwoofer-system...

...I always wanted to hear this setup.
Didn't Paradigm do a sub with four drivers at one time? I can't find it this morning, as the caffeine has not yet kicked in.
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post #252 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 09:06 AM
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Yes but you have to EQ a sub anyway so in the end it all comes down to your specific room, setup and SPL requirements.
I shouldn't have used the term clean. What I was referring to was the clarity of a crisp transient. My point (right or wrong) was that even if the room acoustics impact the signal, wouldn't you still want the original output to be as pure (or clean in terms of transient response) as possible?
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post #253 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I shouldn't have used the term clean. What I was referring to was the clarity of a crisp transient. My point (right or wrong) was that even if the room acoustics impact the signal, wouldn't you still want the original output to be as pure (or clean in terms of transient response) as possible?
I've already said "yes"

But you're focusing on a secondary variable. It's like trying to get the temperature of your grill as close as possible to a certain value while the steak has already some strange smell to it from laying in the sun for too long.

Markus

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post #254 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 10:18 AM
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By the way, always a good read regarding (multiple) subs:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...80&name=harman
...and small room acoustics in general:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...86&name=harman

Markus

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post #255 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 10:46 AM
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I've already said "yes" ....
I wasn't aware you'd said yes.
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post #256 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
By the way, always a good read regarding (multiple) subs:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...80&name=harman
...and small room acoustics in general:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...86&name=harman
Thanks for posting that, as I get tired of doing it.

We see it posted and reposted in discussions like this, so we assume it doesn't need another link, but I was thinking maybe there should be a link, and... Voila, there it is!

Thanks!

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post #257 of 690 Old 07-06-2014, 10:45 PM
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The mass production begins in the next couple of weeks. We are still tweaking some final items, however as I mentioned our goal is to have an open house towards the end of the month and let those who can make it come by listen to the speakers and a proper atmos demonstration...

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
I'm looking forward to hearing more info about an open house in Long Beach!
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post #258 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 10:35 AM
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Thank you Mr.Walker and the almighty Mr. Jones for taking the time to be a part of this forum, that in its self is a fulltime job. And thanks for providing the details that rarely come from a creator or designer. You [are] fine engineers don't have to explain yourselves or anything to us but you both choose to do so. You both have turned this world upside down with the 22 series and once again will do the same.
As others have said, Thank you Chris and Andrew!


The 21/22 series of Speakers are just awesome. Great sound, great price!
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post #259 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 12:01 PM
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Man, it sure looks nice. Too bad I just got my 4 x FS52 + Center + VSX-1123K setup less than a year ago. Wife would kill me if I attempted to upgrade so soon afterwards.

Andrew, have you ever thought about working with automotive OEMs for a factory Andrew Jones car setup? The current factory, even premium systems in the compact and mid-size are usually terrible, and typically overrun by Bose.
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post #260 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 01:47 PM
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Man, it sure looks nice. Too bad I just got my 4 x FS52 + Center + VSX-1123K setup less than a year ago. Wife would kill me if I attempted to upgrade so soon afterwards.

Andrew, have you ever thought about working with automotive OEMs for a factory Andrew Jones car setup? The current factory, even premium systems in the compact and mid-size are usually terrible, and typically overrun by Bose.
Yes, think about it every day that I am stuck in LA traffic...;-)

Andrew
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post #261 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 04:15 PM
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Yes, think about it every day that I am stuck in LA traffic...;-)

Andrew
I'm glad I don't have to sit through traffic everyday. That should be your next target . You've managed to put Pioneer's home audio division on the map. I honestly never considered Pioneer speakers until the Andrew Jones speakers came out, now I have my full HT setup and two DLNA/Airplay speakers for the kids rooms and have been very happy. I think you would be able to take on the higher end German car B&O systems, in a compact or mid-size vehicle. The expensive B&O car systems are awful.
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post #262 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 07:06 PM
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Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. From pix I have seen it looks like the edges of the tweeter and midrange are connected. This is what led to significant concerns, and I presume you understand why. So, my concern level is down...still not sold on the speakers as they seem more like an attempt to leverage the Atmos name than anything else. And, I'm not yet sold on Atmos. I mean, they may be fine speakers, but adding "Atmos" to them doesn't add huge value to me and in fact - raises my BS meter.


To those who took pot shots at my queries...see how easy my concern was to address? No need for personal attacks...just help me learn. OK?
Dude, just go listen to the LS50, I got a pair for close to a year now, and I still can not believe how good they sound...

A bit more on topic: when will Pioneer come out with a LS50 competitor? hahaha.
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post #263 of 690 Old 07-07-2014, 07:33 PM
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I'm glad I don't have to sit through traffic everyday. That should be your next target . You've managed to put Pioneer's home audio division on the map. I honestly never considered Pioneer speakers until the Andrew Jones speakers came out, now I have my full HT setup and two DLNA/Airplay speakers for the kids rooms and have been very happy. I think you would be able to take on the higher end German car B&O systems, in a compact or mid-size vehicle. The expensive B&O car systems are awful.
In aftermarket car audio the Pioneer head units and speakers have typically been in the "best bang for your buck" category.
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post #264 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 08:07 AM
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In aftermarket car audio the Pioneer head units and speakers have typically been in the "best bang for your buck" category.
I was thinking more of OEM Premium Audio. The car audio market has shrank to just bang for buck products, which is sad. However, the premium factory systems range anywhere from tolerable with a aftermarket sub, to overpriced for cool looking tweeters, or Bose.
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post #265 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 08:10 AM
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Hi Andrew and Chris.

I just wanted to comment about future products in this range as to stand alone reflective speaker modules. (I am sure you have heard too many ideas and are already decided upon directions you wish to take with these speakers but I felt it was best to still make mention of this and to get other members of this forums comments). I have seen some photos and drawings of probable modules from some manufacturers (not Pioneer) and I think that most wives will consider these as not acceptable in appearance. I would like to suggest that you consider packaging you 4" coaxial speaker in a well finished sphere that can sit on top of a speaker or furniture and not look (as) ugly as a stand alone box. I would also suggest that it come with a pair of grills that can be selected for narrow or wide dispersion (with a built in lens) and that options be made available for table/speaker top mount, wall mount, or ceiling mount. This could give you one speaker that could serve multiple uses.

Just an idea...
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post #266 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 08:42 AM
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Hi Andrew and Chris.

I just wanted to comment about future products in this range as to stand alone reflective speaker modules. (I am sure you have heard too many ideas and are already decided upon directions you wish to take with these speakers but I felt it was best to still make mention of this and to get other members of this forums comments). I have seen some photos and drawings of probable modules from some manufacturers (not Pioneer) and I think that most wives will consider these as not acceptable in appearance. I would like to suggest that you consider packaging you 4" coaxial speaker in a well finished sphere that can sit on top of a speaker or furniture and not look (as) ugly as a stand alone box. I would also suggest that it come with a pair of grills that can be selected for narrow or wide dispersion (with a built in lens) and that options be made available for table/speaker top mount, wall mount, or ceiling mount. This could give you one speaker that could serve multiple uses.

Just an idea...
If we are talking about putting things on top of speakers to make it domestically acceptable, then I think it will probably have to look like a plant pot...;-)

Andrew
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post #267 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 09:00 AM
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If we are talking about putting things on top of speakers to make it domestically acceptable, then I think it will probably have to look like a plant pot...;-)

Andrew
Now if only we could get plant pedals to act like MF/LF drivers and leaves to act like LF drivers.
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post #268 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 09:11 AM
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The problem with premium audio, as end users it's not easy to change the system anymore. Lexus, for example, the car's ECU is inside the HU. Thank God the HU is actually manufactured by Pioneer

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post #269 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 09:25 AM
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The problem with premium audio, as end users it's not easy to change the system anymore. Lexus, for example, the car's ECU is inside the HU. Thank God the HU is actually manufactured by Pioneer
ECU=Engine Control Unit?
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post #270 of 690 Old 07-08-2014, 09:33 AM
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ECU=Engine Control Unit?
Electronic Control Unit.
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