Internet Direct Speaker/amp Companies - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 46Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:19 AM
Member
 
Speaker Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
You beat me to it Giegar. That was the link I found when I was researching to upgrade my Sunfire Super Junior that I had for about 9 years. I ended up going with an SVS SB-2000. It is probably the best upgrade I've made in years. Never heard of them until a few months ago thanks to this forum. I tend to not search or research any new items/companies after I make a purchase so I am not tempted again!

I've always went with a local dealer that I've dealt with since high school as I have received good deals on demo models, used items, open box items, etc. It is a two hour drive now and not as convenient and I am also perfectly comfortable buying online.

One key factor that I would like to emphasize is the return policy if you are not satisfied. I think many audio enthusiasts are often smitten with the "never satisfied" bug. Costs can escalate quickly when returning an item due to restocking fees/return shipping costs.

I also contacted Outlaw Audio when I was considering an upgrade for one of my AV receivers. I called them over the phone and thought they were very pleasant and helpful. In the end I felt that an extra power amp was unnecessary for how I use my receiver so I didn't order anything. I still wouldn't hesitate to try them out in the future for other products. I thought their retro looking stereo receiver was pretty interesting too.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/

Isn't it great that we have all of these options for audio equipment?
darthray likes this.
Speaker Robert is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
I understand, that's why I said " most " of us would agree with me.


If you think that buying from "dealer" only companies guarantee's a products performance, then you are mistaken.


The dealer's need to make profit....that results in a markup of around 15-30%. A speakers performance is not based on the brand or the price. That's just a silly as saying, " you get what you pay for ". Simply not true.
I would not say "most" people think ID brands are more cost effective. I would say "some" people.

We already saw 2 examples of B&M brands that are very cost effective - Infinity & Pioneer. The P363 goes on sale for $99 each. Which ID tower speaker goes on sale for $99 that beats the P363 or the Pioneer?

If someone buys a pre-owned Revel Salon2 that is 1-2 years old in like-new condition for $11K and someone buys an ID brand for $11K pre-owned or brand new, which one is more cost effective?

It all comes down to the final price, resale value, aesthetic, pride of ownership, preference of sound quality, and availability of speaker measurements. There may be other factors. But price isn't the only factor.

I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.

Subwoofers may be the only area where I will concede that ID brands are more cost effective.

Some of us will only buy passive subs for various reasons. There aren't many options here. Funk Audio and JTR offer both active and passive subs. Kudos to them. But most ID brands are more limited and only offer active subs.

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective. It just depends on various factors.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #33 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
This is an ultra-rare occasion where I have to agree with commsysman. ID does not absolutely necessitate better value. The sound of high end speakers are a subjective preference, period. Aesthetics are a big subjective factor as well. If you want to talk about objective measurements, well some high-end store speakers measure good and some do not, but the same is true with ID brands. And FMW, you did assert an absolute:

I would say this is only partially true for subwoofers, but definitely not speakers or electronics.
Call it denial, but even if I agree with Commsysman, I refuse to admit it.

Yeah, nothing is unequivocal, inexorable, absolute, black and white, carved in stone, every time.

If you are happier with B&M, then that is the right purchase and vice versa. There is a speaker, sub, and amp for everyone.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #34 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I'm absolutely absolute about that point. I understand that the sound of speakers is a matter of personal preference. What I said was that manufacturer direct provides better value every time.
So are you saying that for the same "price", ID brands sound better?

Who determine which sound "better"?

Who say everyone pays 100% retail price for B&M?

If you buy a Revel Salon2 for $11K and someone buys a Salk Soundscape 12 for $18K, which one is better value?

Do ID brands have "better value" if people "prefer" the sound of the B&M brands over ID brands?

"Value" is related to preference in sound, preference in aesthetic, and all other subjective feelings.

Every case is different.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #35 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I guess I should throw in the ones I use - EMP
That's a grey area. EMP is owned by RBH, which is a B&M brand.

I think we will see more and more B&M brands go dual mode and cater both B&M and ID.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #36 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 08:55 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
So are you saying that for the same "price", ID brands sound better?

No, I said the opposite. Sound is a matter of preference, not value. I said manufacturer direct provides better value.

Quote:
Who determine which sound "better"?

Obviously, the end user.

[quote]Who say everyone pays 100% retail price for B&M?{/quote]


I don't know. It wasn't I.

Quote:
If you buy a Revel Salon2 for $11K and someone buys a Salk Soundscape 12 for $18K, which one is better value?

How would I know? All I'm saying is that if they are the same price and one is manufacturer direct, the manufacturer direct will give you more - more enclosure, better drivers, nicer finish, better crossover components. It's just a matter of dollars and cents.

Quote:
Do ID brands have "better value" if people "prefer" the sound of the B&M brands over ID brands?

You are confusing value with sound, I'm not. I'll answer your question with another. By people do you mean all people, some people? What?

Quote:
"Value" is related to preference in sound, preference in aesthetic, and all other subjective feelings.

Every case is different.

And your point is what?
Deckard97 likes this.
FMW is offline  
post #37 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 09:00 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
That's a grey area. EMP is owned by RBH, which is a B&M brand.

I think we will see more and more B&M brands go dual mode and cater both B&M and ID.

Yes and it imports Chinese made speakers directly and sells them directly to end users. EMP speakers are not sold in stores. Because they have no dealer markup, they are a better value than speakers sold in stores for the same prices.


I assume RBH does the design work but I don't know that. If RBH speakers were sold manufacturer direct they could and likely would be sold at lower prices to consumers.


I agree with your prediction. My own view is that the internet will eventually replace most B&M retail.
FMW is offline  
post #38 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I would not say "most" people think ID brands are more cost effective. I would say "some" people.

We already saw 2 examples of B&M brands that are very cost effective - Infinity & Pioneer. The P363 goes on sale for $99 each. Which ID tower speaker goes on sale for $99 that beats the P363 or the Pioneer?

If someone buys a pre-owned Revel Salon2 that is 1-2 years old in like-new condition for $11K and someone buys an ID brand for $11K pre-owned or brand new, which one is more cost effective?

It all comes down to the final price, resale value, aesthetic, pride of ownership, preference of sound quality, and availability of speaker measurements. There may be other factors. But price isn't the only factor.

I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.

Subwoofers may be the only area where I will concede that ID brands are more cost effective.

Some of us will only buy passive subs for various reasons. There aren't many options here. Funk Audio and JTR offer both active and passive subs. Kudos to them. But most ID brands are more limited and only offer active subs.

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective. It just depends on various factors.



Thanks,


What speakers have you owned and what do you own right now? What amps and subs are you using? Do you own an OPPO?


Perhaps I'll start a poll here at AVS...and we can see just how unpopular ID brands are. It would give us a better idea of who buy's ID, and who buys from an authorized dealer.

Last edited by Deckard97; 07-06-2014 at 09:08 AM.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #39 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 09:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
My own view is that the internet will eventually replace most B&M retail.
I think they have already. That's why we hardly see any stores showcasing speakers for people to audition anymore. It may be a phone order and the speakers are shipped to the "store" and delivered to the client. But it's really a "direct" sale in disguise.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #40 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 10:08 AM
Member
 
Speaker Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I think they have already. That's why we hardly see any stores showcasing speakers for people to audition anymore. It may be a phone order and the speakers are shipped to the "store" and delivered to the client. But it's really a "direct" sale in disguise.
I agree to that. When I first started buying audio equipment in the 90's there were several stores around to buy equipment. Now, the only ones remain are the ones that diversified and focus on home theater installs, service, and equipment. There is money to be made in home theater installations, not necessary someone coming in to buy a receiver or some speakers. Obviously, dealers need to have a few brands to sell (Integra, Anthem, Rotel, Paradigm, PSB, etc) when doing installs.

I've seen a number of financially well off, but not necessarily technically savvy people go to local B&M stores (not talking Best Buy) for advice and to help them draw up their dream audio/theater room plans for a new home or renovation. There is definitely a market for that and the convenience of getting all of the items in one package. Plus having direct support (not just email or phone) goes a long way too for some.

There is obviously a good market for internet direct. I love the convenience of buying something online. Plus, I don't have to hear some salesman try to sell me a $100 power cord or a $60 HDMI cable to make it sound "better."

It all comes down to personal preference within one's given budget. The OPPO players, in my humble opinion, are not a good value as I prefer my PS3 for its versatility. There really shouldn't be any arguments regarding whether internet direct or B&M are better....

Last edited by Speaker Robert; 07-06-2014 at 10:35 AM.
Speaker Robert is offline  
post #41 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 10:20 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Perhaps I'll start a poll here at AVS...and we can see just how unpopular ID brands are. It would give us a better idea of who buy's ID, and who buys from an authorized dealer.

This debate hasn't been about popularity. It has been about value.
FMW is offline  
post #42 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 11:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
***Direct internet sales only work well for a certain type of buyer, not for the majority, which is why the majority don't utilize that option.***
I suspect that assertion no longer true. Audio parts dealers are failing everywhere (or converting into CI shops) because intelligent people actively shun them. We don't want to go in to potentially buy a speaker and have to put up with a spiel about some magic wire scam, or magic pucks, etc.

When I bought my Anthem AVR, I sent out a broadcast email to every authorized local dealer on their website. I asked two questions: 1) what do you think of cables, and 2) what's your best price on an MRX 300 dropped on my doorstep. Anyone who answered the first question in the hopes that I was deaf and/or gullible lost the opportunity to earn my business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
Also, the assertion that internet direct companies offer better VALUE is obviously only a subjective opinion that is totally impossible to substantiate.
Discussions of "value" are invariably subjective. Someone may think a Tesla is a great deal because it's has the most "car of the future" vibe of any since the venerable Citroën DS, and is beautiful, practical, and green in addition to being fast. Someone else may think it's a rotten deal because s/he parks in the street and her/his employer doesn't have charging stations in their parking deck either. Or that it's a poor value because it's just too much car; a Golf/A3/CT200h sized model would be a better value even at the same price. (I personally would've happily bought a Tesla a few months ago at current prices if they had a model similar in size to the CT200h I ended up buying, but I can't fathom why I'd want a car as gigantic as a Tesla Model S.)

It's true ID generally has a lower cost structure (one less markup level, cheaper real estate, etc.). What any given firm does with a lower cost structure is a matter of business strategy, of course. Some prefer to capture the efficiencies in higher profits, others prefer to gain market share by lowering prices. Others are more sophisticated, and use price to modulate their growth in a sustainable manner (e.g. Seaton). Interestingly, the products of the firms in that last category tend to be more refined, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
The logical implication of your position would seem to be that if you set a price point, some internet-direct speaker will always turn out to be the best-sounding for that price. My experience with many many speakers at many price points leads me to a very different conclusion.
Often the ID one will have more expensive parts inside. Whether or not that translates into better performance depends on the quality of the design. I'd say both ID and direct are hit-and-miss there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I visit both site (AVS and Audioholic).
This should be a list of ID company that can be trusted for value and customer service if a problem occur, so other enter this great hobby.
The problem there is that what's true right now may be entirely different 5 minutes from now. IMO it's better to presume a higher level of risk when of dealing with new companies offering lower prices for equivalent parts and/or finish quality.

Furthermore, the best indicator of future performance is there is simple longevity. That is to say, dealing with an SVS/Oppo/Seaton Sound is inherently less risky than dealing with a firm who introduced their first products last May.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
***
I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.***
I disagree. The internet is a great place to buy commodity parts. Amps are commodity parts. One can pretty much tell everything one needs to tell about an amp by reading a list of features (12V trigger, signal-sensing turn-on, etc.), looking at the faceplate, seeing if it has fans inside, and measuring one's cabinet to ensure it'll fit. (Yes, there are exceptions, such as tubes and Class D amps that are not load invariant.)

Speakers are far more subjective not only because of sonic differences that exist in speakers but do not exist in competent amps, but also because their placement as a focal point in a room makes their look much more important. That's also why crap speakers that have fetching and expensive-looking industrial design are often preferred over excellent speakers that look cheap in sighted listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I think they have already. That's why we hardly see any stores showcasing speakers for people to audition anymore. It may be a phone order and the speakers are shipped to the "store" and delivered to the client. But it's really a "direct" sale in disguise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaker Robert View Post
***The OPPO players, in my humble opinion, are not a good value as I prefer my PS3 for its versatility.***
I look at it the opposite way. The Oppo plays DVD-As and the video game box does not. When they first released their Blu-Ray player they were the only game in town that played all multichannel music formats. Perhaps now there are better value players; I'm only interested in commodity parts when I need a new one, so I'll find out when my trusty BDP-83 dies.

Also, I don't understand how people can stand to keep video game machines in their listening rooms, because they have such loud fans.
darthray likes this.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 

Last edited by DS-21; 07-06-2014 at 11:29 AM.
DS-21 is offline  
post #43 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 11:42 AM
Member
 
cranster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Add Ascend Acoustics, Salk and Philharmonic Audio as 3 speaker companies that make incredible sounding speakers. I admit being partial to Ascend.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com
http://www.salksound.com
http://philharmonicaudio.com
my 3 sierra 2's and rythmik lv12r arive Monday. I can't wait.
cranster is online now  
post #44 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
Perhaps the future of audio sales is somewhere in between ID & B&M.

Like a custom installer/dealer. He may not have most of the speakers or amps to demo, except his own system. But if you need to buy something specific or require installation, he is just a phone call away and can provide a discount not normally seen with B&M stores. At the same time, he can provide a more immediate and personal local service not possible by an ID brand 1,000 miles away.

But whether ID or B&M or hybrid, I think the best value is in pre-owned equipment.


That's very true in my opinion as well. I was able to score big in the used market ( audiogon ).
Of course you must be assured that the used gear is fully functional, but if you do a little homework, thousands can be saved. ( I'd steer clear of the Ebay when it comes to used speakers )


Back in the day I bought a " like new " pair of paradigm studio 100's. The speakers were lightly used and mint with the original boxes. The end result is that I landed the pair for around $1500.


They retailed at $2400 at the time...so the $900 savings was pretty significant.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #45 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 02:54 PM
Member
 
Speaker Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I look at it the opposite way. The Oppo plays DVD-As and the video game box does not. When they first released their Blu-Ray player they were the only game in town that played all multichannel music formats. Perhaps now there are better value players; I'm only interested in commodity parts when I need a new one, so I'll find out when my trusty BDP-83 dies.

Also, I don't understand how people can stand to keep video game machines in their listening rooms, because they have such loud fans.
Thanks for sharing your opinion! Much appreciated! I think that Oppo makes some great quality electronics. Flashback to 2010, my wife & I wanted a simple all in one entertainment box. Overall, it has functioned well for mostly video streaming, occasional blu-rays/dvds, & light gaming. I only download music or buy CDs and have never owned a DVD audio or SACD disc. The PS3 is the slim model so it runs cooler and much quieter. I can't hear it from my seating position, unless when I place it on a shelf directly above the receiver (dumps heat to it).

Overall, I think that over the past several years more & more people are less scared of buying products online. I mix and match internet direct and dealer products now based on price/performance and lots of researching. If a dealer is a few hour drive away, it is also a good idea to estimate the cost of fuel into the overall cost too. For internet direct, shipping.
Deckard97 likes this.
Speaker Robert is offline  
post #46 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 04:09 PM
Newbie
 
Nealkot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Manchester, Michigan
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I too have a mix of ID and dealer products. This is the first system that I had to buy with my own money. My uncle worked at a local hifi retailer and would give me his old stuff. I've had NAD, B&O, Phase Tech, Yamaha brands from him just to name a few. When it came time to replace some older and or broken equipment, I started my research. Long story short, I ended up buying an Outlaw RR2150 stereo amp, Marantz CD6005 CD player, SVS SB1000 sub, and Kef Q100 bookshelves. Cost me about $2k, and I feel that I got a great value out if the kit. It's a great sounding 2.1 kit, and it does everything I wanted it to. I would buy ID brands again, I would buy dealer brands again. And being hooked on this hobby, I probably will. Just my $.02.
darthray and Deckard97 like this.
Nealkot is offline  
post #47 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I would not say "most" people think ID brands are more cost effective. I would say "some" people.

We already saw 2 examples of B&M brands that are very cost effective - Infinity & Pioneer. The P363 goes on sale for $99 each. Which ID tower speaker goes on sale for $99 that beats the P363 or the Pioneer?

If someone buys a pre-owned Revel Salon2 that is 1-2 years old in like-new condition for $11K and someone buys an ID brand for $11K pre-owned or brand new, which one is more cost effective?

It all comes down to the final price, resale value, aesthetic, pride of ownership, preference of sound quality, and availability of speaker measurements. There may be other factors. But price isn't the only factor.

I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.

Subwoofers may be the only area where I will concede that ID brands are more cost effective.

Some of us will only buy passive subs for various reasons. There aren't many options here. Funk Audio and JTR offer both active and passive subs. Kudos to them. But most ID brands are more limited and only offer active subs.

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective. It just depends on various factors.


So you think Revel, B&W, and Kef are of better value than my Factory Direct Speakers? Possibly, if you plan to sell, since the resale would probably be higher on those well known ( heavily marketed ) brands.


But the brands you mentioned are honestly inferior to mine. What other low echelon Hi-fi brands have you heard?...or claim to have heard?

Last edited by Deckard97; 07-06-2014 at 07:32 PM.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #48 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I would not say "most" people think ID brands are more cost effective. I would say "some" people.

We already saw 2 examples of B&M brands that are very cost effective - Infinity & Pioneer. The P363 goes on sale for $99 each. Which ID tower speaker goes on sale for $99 that beats the P363 or the Pioneer?

If someone buys a pre-owned Revel Salon2 that is 1-2 years old in like-new condition for $11K and someone buys an ID brand for $11K pre-owned or brand new, which one is more cost effective?

It all comes down to the final price, resale value, aesthetic, pride of ownership, preference of sound quality, and availability of speaker measurements. There may be other factors. But price isn't the only factor.

I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.

Subwoofers may be the only area where I will concede that ID brands are more cost effective.

Some of us will only buy passive subs for various reasons. There aren't many options here. Funk Audio and JTR offer both active and passive subs. Kudos to them. But most ID brands are more limited and only offer active subs.

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective. It just depends on various factors.



I'll take that bet, we'll set up a poll. I'll wager 500 favoring the ID brands. Do you accept?


All these people? Now you can read everyone's mind too? Lots of people use a combination of name brands as well as ID.....so you speak for 100% of them? Ridiculous

Last edited by Deckard97; 07-06-2014 at 07:27 PM.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #49 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 07:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 117
One more thing about Oppo
Great customer service.

A few years back my BD83 started to freeze.
So I send them an e-mail for sugestion.
They reply to me that they will send me a shipping label.
I replied back mentioning the unit was 2 weeks out of warranty.
They replied back it will be taken care as under warranty.
It went to California and back to Northern Alberta within a week ($50 shipping each way and they paid for it)

When I ask upon the return of my unit what was wrong, they said smoking tar since the design suck the air from the front to the back (all my electronics are in-wall).

So it was totally my fault and not theirs, but still took care of me when my warranty was over.

Now I own the BD103 since the player is now seal and my smoking issue as been removed.

I just tought to share a great experience with them.

Ray
Deckard97 likes this.

Birthdays are good for you
The more you have
The longer you live
darthray is offline  
post #50 of 71 Old 07-06-2014, 07:18 PM
Senior Member
 
SMHarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
So you think Revel, B&W, and Kef are of better value than my Factory Direct Speakers? Possibly, if you plan to sell, since the resale would probably be higher on those well known ( heavily marketed ) brands.


But the brands you mentioned are honestly inferior to mine. What other low echelon Hi-fi brands have you heard?
But I'd KEFdirect.com an internet direct offering?

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
SMHarman is offline  
post #51 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 02:25 AM
Senior Member
 
ien2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Oahu
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
ien2 is offline  
post #52 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Oppo

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
One more thing about Oppo
Great customer service.

A few years back my BD83 started to freeze.
So I send them an e-mail for sugestion.
They reply to me that they will send me a shipping label.
I replied back mentioning the unit was 2 weeks out of warranty.
They replied back it will be taken care as under warranty.
It went to California and back to Northern Alberta within a week ($50 shipping each way and they paid for it)

When I ask upon the return of my unit what was wrong, they said smoking tar since the design suck the air from the front to the back (all my electronics are in-wall).

So it was totally my fault and not theirs, but still took care of me when my warranty was over.

Now I own the BD103 since the player is now seal and my smoking issue as been removed.

I just tought to share a great experience with them.

Ray

OPPO has been great, every time I need a firmware update they promptly accept my call, and mail me the firmware disc without delay. No issues at all.
darthray likes this.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #53 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Kef

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
But I'd KEFdirect.com an internet direct offering?

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


KEF does sell some gear online, for those who live far way from the nearest dealer. They have over 300 authorized dealers.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #54 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
MIX of popular brands and ID

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
KEF does sell some gear online, for those who live far way from the nearest dealer. They have over 300 authorized dealers.

Everyone take note of the brands within the attached system:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6133301531_36aa3b59ae_b.jpg (251.4 KB, 30 views)
Deckard97 is offline  
post #55 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 05:27 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective.

I agree with that statement. My answer would be that they don't understand basic business very well. Your point is well made about the Infinity and Pioneer. In those two cases we have economies of scale. If I were a manufacturer direct seller I wouldn't compete in their price range either. I'm not aware of any manufacturer direct sellers at those price points but, if there are, I would still think their products represent better value.
darthray likes this.
FMW is offline  
post #56 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 05:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Transmaniacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,150
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 363
I think ID offers great value at the lower level of the spectrum. Most big store brands and dealer-only brands do not fall in the entry level category because of the markups. I would wager the majority of customers spend less than more on audio, and this is why the majority find better value in the ID brands. It is definitely beneficial buying from a dealer, you get to audition your speakers in person, have a direct contact for support, and do not need to ship them. Obviously you pay more for that additional convenience, but that kind of system applies to most all products in life.

I think it would be a good idea to have a master list, perhaps with links to the owners threads for each brand so people can be directed to the speakers they are interested in.

Entry Level Sound:

Andrew Jones Pioneer
Infinity Primus
Polk Monitor
JBL ES/Studio 1

Solid performers:

Ascend
Arx
EMP
HTD
NHT
Axiom
Aperion
HSU
Polk RTi
KEF Q
DefTech Studio
JBL 5
Klipsch Reference

Upper End:

Salk Sound
Asend Sierra
Polk LSiM
SVS Ultra
Philhamonic Audio
Axiom
Funk Audio

High Efficiency Theater:

Chane Home Cinema
Pi Speakers
JBL Cinema
JTR


These are just the ones that come to mind, there are lots more, and brands/models to cover all preferences and budgets. As you move up in price, the value benefit with ID becomes less apparent. Additionally, as you move up in price, the law of diminishing returns becomes more apparent. It is important for each person to find the sweet spot in terms of price and performance that suits them. The whole point of this forum is to give people sound advice and options for their needs, more options and information leads to a better decision and a happier person.
darthray, Deckard97 and Pentothal like this.

Living Room
Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon DBP-1611 | Roku 3
Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | BIC F-12

Computer
Topping TP23 | NHT SuperZero 2.0 | Velodyne DEQ-8R
Transmaniacon is offline  
post #57 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
I would not say "most" people think ID brands are more cost effective. I would say "some" people.

We already saw 2 examples of B&M brands that are very cost effective - Infinity & Pioneer. The P363 goes on sale for $99 each. Which ID tower speaker goes on sale for $99 that beats the P363 or the Pioneer?

If someone buys a pre-owned Revel Salon2 that is 1-2 years old in like-new condition for $11K and someone buys an ID brand for $11K pre-owned or brand new, which one is more cost effective?

It all comes down to the final price, resale value, aesthetic, pride of ownership, preference of sound quality, and availability of speaker measurements. There may be other factors. But price isn't the only factor.

I bet there are a lot more people who own Revel, B&W, and KEF than all Internet Direct brands put together. Obviously all these people don't agree that ID brands are more cost effective.

Same way with amplifiers.

Subwoofers may be the only area where I will concede that ID brands are more cost effective.

Some of us will only buy passive subs for various reasons. There aren't many options here. Funk Audio and JTR offer both active and passive subs. Kudos to them. But most ID brands are more limited and only offer active subs.

In summary, I don't think that "most" people believe ID brands are unequivocally more cost effective. It just depends on various factors.



Check out the system in my post # 54. If what you say is true, then why would this guy buy $30k in speakers only to be powered by ID amplifiers???
darthray likes this.

Last edited by Deckard97; 07-07-2014 at 06:47 AM.
Deckard97 is offline  
post #58 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 07:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
What speakers have you owned and what do you own right now? What amps and subs are you using? Do you own an OPPO?


Perhaps I'll start a poll here at AVS...and we can see just how unpopular ID brands are. It would give us a better idea of who buy's ID, and who buys from an authorized dealer.
Speakers I've owned:
Revel Salon2
B&W 802D2
KEF Reference 201/2
TAD 2201
Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1
Focal 826V
Dynaudio X32
ATC SCM7
Philharmonic 3
NHT SuperZero
Infinity P362 & P162
JBL JRX212

Subs I've owned:
RBH SX-1010
Funk 18.0
Rythmik D15SE
NHT SW2P
Definitive Technology SuperCube Trinity
Velodyne SC600
BIC PL-200

Amps I've owned:
ATI AT3005, AT3002, AT2005, AT6012
Acurus 200X3
Emotiva MPS2 200WPC x 7CH amp

I own an Oppo SACD/DVDA player.

And we'll see how many people (population) will participate in the poll. Obviously, the data will be skewed if only ID speaker owners participate.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #59 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 07:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
Check out the system in my post # 54. If what you say is true, then why would this guy buy $30k in speakers only to be powered by ID amplifiers???
Does one guy or even group of guys represent everyone else?

You buy the equipment that sound the best to you or suite your need the best. That is the salient point, not which is the cheapest.

If you compared the B&M vs ID and you prefer the B&M speakers better, then you are going to buy the B&M speakers and vice versa.

If they all suite your needs equally and all sound equally great to you, then it comes down to whichever gives you the best deal. If you can get a better deal with B&M, then you buy B&M. If you can get a better deal with ID, then you buy ID.
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
post #60 of 71 Old 07-07-2014, 07:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 235
I think the question of this thread is about "value".

But there needs to be a clear definition of "value".

Does value tie into preference or performance?

If you don't like something, does it have great "value" to you, even if it is cheaper?

If a speaker doesn't sound good to me, then it has ZERO value to me regardless of price.

If a speaker is too ugly for me to look at, then it has ZERO value to me regardless of price.

So what is the clear definition of better "value"?
AcuDefTechGuy is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off