Need speaker advice (upgrading my old 5.1 setup, fronts first) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-08-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Need speaker advice (upgrading my old 5.1 setup, fronts first)

I had an old JBL northridge 5.1 setup (pretty decent for the price, hefty sized satelites with a center channel, I think the sub was seperate but that didn't hold up).

Anyway, I already replaced the only 12" downfiring woofer with a new Sunfire subwoofer that has been pretty solid.

As for the rest, I figured at the very least new fronts would be in order first (the rears dont work as much anyway, and perhaps the current fronts could be augmented into a 7.1 setup..).

So the goal now is to get some nice fronts (and perhaps a channel for when I'm not watching stereo content and I want the voice stuff to match up).

I have always been enamored with both the sound and design of the upper level B&W speakers. My brother got a used pair of wood towers with the black domes on top, which I always liked. Beyond that though I've found it hard to really differentiate all the different brands of towers and the different lines, some of which have much more cones and whatnot.

The room isn't huge, so it's less about power and more about quality/fidelity.

Price point wise, a sweet spot would be nice. I dont want to cheap out, but I dont want to spend an arm and a leg either. I want something nice and good for the money, before those potential diminishing returns kick in. Also keeping in mind that with what I'm upgrading from, just about anything will likely be a step up anyway.
spincut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-08-2014, 01:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvrgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bowie, MD.
Posts: 2,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I always tell people to go listen to Vanderstein 2Ce's. They are the do-no-wrong champ. From there, yo know what a neutral speaker sounds like and can then go listen to others. I find the B&W's a bit hot on the top. As I build my own speakers, I don't know a lot of the current market. PSB, Boston, Polk, Difinative, GoldenEar, Paradigm, Totem. Lots out there.
tvrgeek is offline  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
I always tell people to go listen to Vanderstein 2Ce's. They are the do-no-wrong champ. From there, yo know what a neutral speaker sounds like and can then go listen to others. I find the B&W's a bit hot on the top. As I build my own speakers, I don't know a lot of the current market. PSB, Boston, Polk, Difinative, GoldenEar, Paradigm, Totem. Lots out there.
Polk? I always had thought they were more on the lower end brand wise, or perhaps they have gotten better in recent years?

And yeah, speaking of the current market, it seems like when it comes to speakers, they don't always necessarily improve year to year? Maybe it would open the door to get something nicer akin to how my brother snagged those higher end BW's (he got them used)?

But yeah, aside from the vague certainty that I want my fronts to be towers now (easier than finding an extra pair of stands for bookshelfs), I am not otherwise sure what I want to get aside from something good (and yeah the room isn't huge...although I will admit that towers that don't have anything more than a single cone seem odd and stripped down to me).
spincut is offline  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Take a look at the Focal Chorus towers and center, on good closeout pricing
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...results/1.html

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-08-2014, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Take a look at the Focal Chorus towers and center, on good closeout pricing
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...results/1.html
Not bad. Looks alright anyway (a little exagerative on the hard edges but otherwise spiffy). Of course my ongoing issue is that I am not familiar with Focal, much like a lot of other brands mentioned (I'm lucky to know about Kef or BW, but actually snagging one of their better performing and looking models at a decent price would probably be hard I imagine). It's a shame it's hard to really know quality from just eyeballing them.

And yes, the idea of going somewhere and listening would be a good idea, but I am not sure I know of a place outside of a best buy (plus if I dont intend to buy from them, I hate feeling like I am wasting their time).
spincut is offline  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Not bad. Looks alright anyway (a little exagerative on the hard edges but otherwise spiffy). Of course my ongoing issue is that I am not familiar with Focal,
Focal is good and can hold their own - a nice/good step up, from your JBL Northridge system.

The decisions are never easy - no one can speak for your ears - enjoy the adventure search.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-08-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Focal is good and can hold their own - a nice/good step up, from your JBL Northridge system.

The decisions are never easy - no one can speak for your ears - enjoy the adventure search.
Maybe a better question would be, who cant hold their own?

And yeah, I'm guessing just about any tower I get (even something not highly reccomended) would out do my north ridge speakers. But yeah, I figure if I do do it, might as well do it right. But yeah, don't have a lot of venues to go "adventuring" really except well informed reccomendations.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-08-2014, 04:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvrgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bowie, MD.
Posts: 2,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Polk, Definitive and now the more recent split, Golden Ear are "value" but don't laugh unless you hear them. Focal well respected. Canton maybe. Higher line Kef, higher end Warfdale. I quite like Martin Logan ES and if done well, Maggies. I remember Quads quite fondly. Now, here I tread on thin ice as I have not heard them, but there has been a lot of discussion about Behringer. Not kidding. If I had the bucks, I would love to hear GedLee. Like I said, listen to the Vandersteins. I like my last set of SEAS based 2-ways sitting on top of my Peerless 12 inch subs. PSB, Monitor, Theil. I loved Snell, but they are gone. Your choice may be limited to what you can actually get out to hear. At least in my area, high end is dead and we are stuck with pretty generic stuff.
tvrgeek is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 01:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,214
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 333
Thumbs up

How do these grab you @spincut ?

Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower

These are a very highly regarded speaker from a US manufacturer. The RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade ($700) is said to be well worth it and the published measurements look outstanding. (You won't find measurements like that on B&W's website. )

Another thing I love is that the matching Sierra Horizon centre channel has an identical complement of drivers.
GIEGAR is online now  
Old 07-09-2014, 08:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ClarkeBar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tea Party Central
Posts: 3,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 22
There's a nice selection of speakers with a fairly varied price range in either Bookshelf or Towers at AudioAdvisor.com

My personal choice would be the Monitor Audio Silver 8 towers ... but there's lots to pick from and all of them sound excellent for the money. You spend more, you usually get that for which you paid more. Without a known budget, it's hard to point in any one direction. But I suspect, if you're like me, you are willing to spend a little more if the value and SQ is worth it.

If building the 5.1 do-over in stages, take your time and especially consider the available Center channels with each speaker. A good one can be quite expensive as the more you spend on the fronts, the likelier the matching CC cost will be an ouch! Once you're at 3.1, you will know better what you paid for. The Sunfire should do well in any case.

IMHO, the Golden Ear Sevens are unreal value for the money.
ClarkeBar is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
How do these grab you @spincut ?

Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower

These are a very highly regarded speaker from a US manufacturer. The RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade ($700) is said to be well worth it and the published measurements look outstanding. (You won't find measurements like that on B&W's website. )

Another thing I love is that the matching Sierra Horizon centre channel has an identical complement of drivers.
Those look alright, but I would say those are quite a bit more than a little upgrade in price? Especially with this ribbon attachment thing which I dont really understand in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post
There's a nice selection of speakers with a fairly varied price range in either Bookshelf or Towers at AudioAdvisor.com

My personal choice would be the Monitor Audio Silver 8 towers ... but there's lots to pick from and all of them sound excellent for the money. You spend more, you usually get that for which you paid more. Without a known budget, it's hard to point in any one direction. But I suspect, if you're like me, you are willing to spend a little more if the value and SQ is worth it.

If building the 5.1 do-over in stages, take your time and especially consider the available Center channels with each speaker. A good one can be quite expensive as the more you spend on the fronts, the likelier the matching CC cost will be an ouch! Once you're at 3.1, you will know better what you paid for. The Sunfire should do well in any case.

IMHO, the Golden Ear Sevens are unreal value for the money.
Choices are good! Choices that are all definitely vetted and reccomended are even better. I will take a look.

As for pricing, as I vaguely quantified earlier, I definitely dont want bottom of the barrel, but would shell out a little more to get something nice (I do feel at a certain point you're getting diminishing returns though for ridiculously high costs).

For a solid pair of towers I was hoping to stay under 1000, but I have to assume there is a decent cross section of design and quality at a price point somewhere around there, it certainly is a bit above bottom of the barrel. Also the idea of getting something a little nicer but getting a price cut on it being used seemed like an appealing idea, that maybe I could get something really good. I just would need to know what I'm looking for specifically first.

As for the center? I'm not exactly sure what a good range for that is as I havent looked in a while (And my last one came with the set), but I seem to recall prices for a lower end one going from 300-500? So perhaps grabbing one at 700-900 could be doable?

But yeah, it would have to be a tight field narrowing to truly figure out what would be a solid and ideal bang for ones back around that.

*I thought audio advisor was a review website at first. They didnt have a ton to really look at, and given the pricing was "per tower" it really was pretty pricey? I didn't see the Golden Ear models you recommended either?

Last edited by spincut; 07-09-2014 at 02:17 PM.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Honestly, I may have to adjust my budget now, because I think I found a veritable "sweet spot":

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/en-us/our...roducts/venere

I have seen a few people in the forum talking about Sonus Faber, specifically this new Veneer line (even trying to find those Olympica things used at a decent price sounds like a challenge).

But yeah, at that price point, I want to feel they are definitely do no wrong good. Still, I've seen at least a few good reviews and they certainly look sexy.

Anyone have any thoughts (or stuff people feel is comparable?).

Last edited by spincut; 07-09-2014 at 03:17 PM.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 03:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvrgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bowie, MD.
Posts: 2,146
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Respected. At least they seem to understand diffraction!

One of the really good news things is that unless they are terrible, you will "learn" them pretty quick. So small variances in response are not really that important. Your brain fixes it. If the crossover is right, no big dips or humps, good directivity index, yo will be most happy.
tvrgeek is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Respected. At least they seem to understand diffraction!

One of the really good news things is that unless they are terrible, you will "learn" them pretty quick. So small variances in response are not really that important. Your brain fixes it. If the crossover is right, no big dips or humps, good directivity index, yo will be most happy.
Who's respected and understands diffraction?

Did you mean I'd "learn" them as in grow accustomed to and like them whatever they are, or learn to key on on sound differences if I was actually lucky to hear the speakers I'd want to select from in a store (I doubt I will)?

Oh yeah, I hadn't really caught you earlier post before. Yeah Polk always seemed like a solid, ever present, generic widely available brand, but I always kind of strayed from them and the few others I knew of a decade or so ago when I picked up my JBL's that they were sort of compared alongside of.

Goldenear seems to keep coming up, and review after review seems to not underestimate them, but they ARE kind of gaudy, I DONT need such a full packed tower (as I feel like it could be overkill if I am supplanting them with sats and a sub), and I did hear they're fussy about placement (I live in an old concret-y loft space, so it would be nice to know it will harmoniously work without perfected room acoustics).

Honestly, the more I look at them and read about them, stuff like the Sonus Faber or the Martin Logan 40's (or whatever the non pricey, more traditional ones they have) seemed really slick and good performing, but yeah both have some question marks still. But yeah comparable stuff or just weighing on those could help!

I checked out Warfdales briefly, and they seem cool, but I had too many issues whether it be price or something else I already forget (I think I remember thinking that if I was going to go that route to just get BW's...granted I was surprised to read that people don't seem to like them as much anymore? Or at least the lower-mid range of them?).
spincut is offline  
Old 07-09-2014, 04:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Honestly, I may have to adjust my budget now, because I think I found a veritable "sweet spot":

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/en-us/our...roducts/venere
I would for sure listen to them first - and make sure you like the midrange and lower treble
of the 2.5 tower (if that is the one you are thinking about)
With the towers they should sound a little better with the grills off.
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-10-2014, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
I would for sure listen to them first - and make sure you like the midrange and lower treble
of the 2.5 tower (if that is the one you are thinking about)
With the towers they should sound a little better with the grills off.
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
Well, I would surely like to listen to a lot of speakers I look at, sadly I may not get to listen to any, so I really do have to make the best approximation I have (consistently good pro and user level reviews certainly help, leaving a lot less room for error....also again, don't forget I AM coming from a 15 year old 5.1 JBL system, so just about anything should sound better, yes?).

Is the veener's not sounding as good with the grills on a thing specifically for them or something? I mean, sure, most speakers look a lot cooler with the grills off, but I usually prefer keeping them on to keep stuff protected.

But yeah, if I do get the tower I would likely get the 2.5 (not sure which of the bookshelf ones I would get, but I could feasibly do it, given they come with stands attached. Probably the 2.0 though).

Actually my biggest concern in regards to these is the center. I would almost like to get a different one in such a case because this one seems a little underwhelming to me for some reason I cant really quantify, but I know that's not the smartest idea, so I hope it's a solid performer just like the other speakers are said to be.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 12:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Honestly, I may have to adjust my budget now, because I think I found a veritable "sweet spot" ... Anyone have any thoughts (or stuff people feel is comparable?).
A budget of $2500 for just the front L/R mains is certainly a different sweet spot that I thought you were looking for. The rest of the system isn't inexpensive either. I know that they make very high end "warm" audiophile speakers - never had the chance to hear them myself.

Review of $5500 Sonus Faber 2.5 system: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...speaker-system

Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Actually my biggest concern in regards to these is the center. I would almost like to get a different one in such a case because this one seems a little underwhelming to me for some reason I cant really quantify, but I know that's not the smartest idea, so I hope it's a solid performer just like the other speakers are said to be.
I share your concern with the center channel speaker - I don't even like the Mid-Tweeter-Mid D'Appolito array on its side design - this design has a lot of known issues like lobing with too high of a crossover frequency to the mids - bad design for off-axis listening and for dialog intelligibility.

I have listened to the JBL Northridge speakers and I would consider them "slightly bright" and "forward", even a little harsh at the high end - definitely not anything like the laid back or "warm" which the Sonus Faber speakers are famous for - that sound that most audiophiles prefer.

Have you ever listened to that kind of "warm" speaker? Do you like the way they sound? You will need to listen and decide for yourself.

Personally, I like the sound of "slightly bright" speakers and the more modern ones tend to be a lot less harsh at the high frequencies. For the amount of money you are talking here, you could get a pair of Paradigm Studio 60s and a Studio CC-590 center (which I have - I love mine). This center channel speaker has a vertical mid-tweeter array flanked by woofers with a quite low crossover point (400Hz) - crystal clear sound even off-axis and exceptional dialog intelligibility. These are not as bright as your JBLs but also not "warm" like the Sonus Faber either. At $3800 for the front three these aren't cheap - I bought mine used.

http://www.paradigm.com/products-cur...590/page=specs


Regardless, I would suggest finding a line of speakers that has an EXCELLENT center channel speaker and going to listen to them.

If you think you want some speakers that are just a little warmer, try listening to NHT speakers - the Classic Three and Center Three and your capable sub might sound just right to you - $1500 for the front three plus stands.

http://www.nhthifi.com/Three?sc=12&category=3772
http://www.nhthifi.com/Three-C?sc=12&category=3774


2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
A budget of $2500 for just the front L/R mains is certainly a different sweet spot that I thought you were looking for. The rest of the system isn't inexpensive either. I know that they make very high end "warm" audiophile speakers - never had the chance to hear them myself.

Review of $5500 Sonus Faber 2.5 system: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...speaker-system



I share your concern with the center channel speaker - I don't even like the Mid-Tweeter-Mid D'Appolito array on its side design - this design has a lot of known issues like lobing with too high of a crossover frequency to the mids - bad design for off-axis listening and for dialog intelligibility.

I have listened to the JBL Northridge speakers and I would consider them "slightly bright" and "forward", even a little harsh at the high end - definitely not anything like the laid back or "warm" which the Sonus Faber speakers are famous for - that sound that most audiophiles prefer.

Have you ever listened to that kind of "warm" speaker? Do you like the way they sound? You will need to listen and decide for yourself.

Personally, I like the sound of "slightly bright" speakers and the more modern ones tend to be a lot less harsh at the high frequencies. For the amount of money you are talking here, you could get a pair of Paradigm Studio 60s and a Studio CC-590 center (which I have - I love mine). This center channel speaker has a vertical mid-tweeter array flanked by woofers with a quite low crossover point (400Hz) - crystal clear sound even off-axis and exceptional dialog intelligibility. These are not as bright as your JBLs but also not "warm" like the Sonus Faber either. At $3800 for the front three these aren't cheap - I bought mine used.

http://www.paradigm.com/products-cur...590/page=specs


Regardless, I would suggest finding a line of speakers that has an EXCELLENT center channel speaker and going to listen to them.

If you think you want some speakers that are just a little warmer, try listening to NHT speakers - the Classic Three and Center Three and your capable sub might sound just right to you - $1500 for the front three plus stands.

http://www.nhthifi.com/Three?sc=12&category=3772
http://www.nhthifi.com/Three-C?sc=12&category=3774

As I made clear already, listening to all these (any of these, really) will not likely be doable, I just dont have places like that around here with those products available I don't think.

Furthermore, I never really said I was looking to match the unique sounds of my 15 year old budget speakers. I don't really even have a quantification for their sound. I DO imagine there will be a "different" sound depending on the speakers, but "warm" doesn't totally frighten me. Will they still work well for games and movies (And yes music)? Because as long as they truly do sound great and will not seem worse than my JBL's (differences aside, this is a major quality bump), then I am interested. Sure, too sharp or too soft may not appeal, balanced is probably best since I dont have any real focused goal in mind, just all around rich and quality sound.

I wasnt entirely sure how to put together my budget. I knew I didn't want to spend "too much", but not too little if there was something within reaching worth grabbing. I wasn't really seeing it though (with what limited perception I had anyway); something a small amount more that really hits the "sweet spot." It just appeared that the Sonos Fabers were that proper reach (or perhaps those traditional Martin Logans?). The center channel was more of an afterthought, but yeah I slowly realized it would be important to take care of that at the same time. Given the initial budget I had, I don't really think this is a lot more, again, if it's worth the extra reach.

As for the rest, why you felt the center channel for the Sonus was indeed not as good, or why the others you recommended were...a lot of that went over my head admittedly. I still am trying to figure out these ribbon tweeter things (at least I know what people are talking about now though, noticed the Martin Logan's have em, kind of neat looking, not sure if they are automatically considered better or not?).

While the Sonus system (keeping in mind I am not going to be getting the whole system) isn't "inexpensive" it certainly isn't a ton. Seems like the perfect marriage of quality at a somewhat more affordable price? (key word is somewhat, but I wasn't seeing much of anything that really grabbed me in the tier right under that). And yeah, the Sound And Vision review of them seemed very glowing and positive (if not one of their favorite products ratings wise, it seems. Keep in mind I already have upgraded the sub to a Sunfire so I wont be getting one of those any time soon regardless).

*As for the Paradigms, it's funny, I was looking at the one rung down, glancing up at the referenced collection (wonder what made it better), and oddly, balking at the price (even though it indeed isn't really far off from where the Sonus towers are..especially if I cave and spring for the real wood...).

Last edited by spincut; 07-10-2014 at 12:45 PM.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 01:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Is the veener's not sounding as good with the grills on a thing specifically for them or something? I mean, sure, most speakers look a lot cooler with the grills off, but I usually prefer keeping them on to keep stuff protected.

But yeah, if I do get the tower I would likely get the 2.5 (not sure which of the bookshelf ones I would get, but I could feasibly do it, given they come with stands attached. Probably the 2.0 though).

Actually my biggest concern in regards to these is the center. I would almost like to get a different one in such a case because this one seems a little underwhelming to me for some reason I cant really quantify, but I know that's not the smartest idea, so I hope it's a solid performer just like the other speakers are said to be.
Yes, look at the top purple line - from 1.5 khz on, it has a sinking midrange and lower treble.
http://www.soundandvision.com/images/413sonus.meas.jpg

These were measured with the grills on - I would not buy a Sonus Faber before listening to it.

It is best to timbre (tone color) match the front 3 channel speakers - for good overall balance
sound - so the center is important when choosing the front speakers.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-10-2014, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Yes, look at the top purple line - from 1.5 khz on, it has a sinking midrange and lower treble.
http://www.soundandvision.com/images/413sonus.meas.jpg

These were measured with the grills on - I would not buy a Sonus Faber before listening to it.

It is best to timbre (tone color) match the front 3 channel speakers - for good overall balance
sound - so the center is important when choosing the front speakers.
I dont understand what tone color is...but the idea of matching the speakers that do the most work together does at least make sense. I would not ideally want to buy 'any' speakers before listening to them, but I also don't want to get ones that I may like less (but cost a little less) just because of that. I still dont understand if "grills on" is a common hindrance for speakers (I was never aware of this) or if I may not even care/notice this perceived sound difference due to something that in my mind should be purely aesthetic and have no affect on sound.

Actually, if I read this review correctly http://www.stereophile.com/content/s...speaker-page-2 , this guy willingly and happily paired the Vener 2.5's with the aforementioned paradigm studio center and seemed extremely happy with it? Understandably it's an endeavor who's results you can never be too certain of depending on the mix of speakers, but given where this convo has gone thus far, a very intriguing coincidence..unless he meant there was a paradigm tower in the center he was comparing them to rather than a paradigm center?
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 01:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gecko85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 95
I recently went through the same thing - upgrading my fronts, eventually going to move old fronts to 7.1 (but don't have room yet...)

My best advise: be sure to listen/demo several speakers in your home, with your equipment. No amount of listening at a store is going to help. Too many variables. I was looking for not-top-end ($1k range) fronts, and after listening to all the crap at the big box store, then listening to some B&W's, GoldenEar's, and Paradigm's, I was convinced the B&W 683's (towers) were the ones I wanted. Only problem: they sounded horrible in my listening space. Not at all how they sounded in the store. The problem was I couldn't give them enough room to breath in the tight space where I put them. So, I took them back and demo'd a few others (all bookshelfs this time, on my existing stands): B&W CM1's, GoldenEar Aon 3's, Definitive Technology SM55's. For me, in my space, with my equipment, the CM1's were the clear winner. A solid week of A/B listening, and I'm very happy with my decision...but I could not have possibly made the same decision based solely on in-store listening. Not even close. Eventually (maybe in a year or so), I plan to move the CM1's to the rear, and go up a step (again) in the front. I'll start by listening to their big brother, the CM5's, but will certainly audition others as well. Baby steps...

Panasonic TC-P60ST60, Pioneer SC-1523-K, Oppo BDP-103D, Pioneer PL-550 + Cambridge Audio Azur 640P, B&W CM1 (fronts), B&W CM Centre, Athena Point 5 Mk II (rears), Hsu VTF-2
----------------------------------------
Sony 34XBR960, Onkyo TX-NR414, Sony PS3, Athena Point 5 Mk II (center and fronts), Wharfedale WH-2 (rears), Polk PSW10
Gecko85 is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
I recently went through the same thing - upgrading my fronts, eventually going to move old fronts to 7.1 (but don't have room yet...)

My best advise: be sure to listen/demo several speakers in your home, with your equipment. No amount of listening at a store is going to help. Too many variables. I was looking for not-top-end ($1k range) fronts, and after listening to all the crap at the big box store, then listening to some B&W's, GoldenEar's, and Paradigm's, I was convinced the B&W 683's (towers) were the ones I wanted. Only problem: they sounded horrible in my listening space. Not at all how they sounded in the store. The problem was I couldn't give them enough room to breath in the tight space where I put them. So, I took them back and demo'd a few others (all bookshelfs this time, on my existing stands): B&W CM1's, GoldenEar Aon 3's, Definitive Technology SM55's. For me, in my space, with my equipment, the CM1's were the clear winner. A solid week of A/B listening, and I'm very happy with my decision...but I could not have possibly made the same decision based solely on in-store listening. Not even close. Eventually (maybe in a year or so), I plan to move the CM1's to the rear, and go up a step (again) in the front. I'll start by listening to their big brother, the CM5's, but will certainly audition others as well. Baby steps...
That's good advice (or at the very least, a good cautionary tale), but while it's bad enough that I can't even go to a store and listen to a lot of those, I certainly wont have the opportunity to test drive them in my space. It certainly would be a good idea, given I live in a 100 year old brick loft building with a lot of concrete. Also, even my system is not what it will be. I have a 5 year old Sony receiver that is more on it's way out (either for a new Sony receiver of the same level, or perhaps an upcoming higher mid range Denon/Pioneer), so that would change it a bit too.

In the end, I kind of just have to cross my fingers and hope that my space will not be a severlely variable and limiting factor on this one. On the upside, I don't exactly have the most awesome sound setup right now and I am cool with it (cool, but am definitely ready for better), so I at least feel optimistic that as long as I do my research and get something quality, that it wont sound totally different/terrible in my home. but yes, for more finicky preference and just getting a relative feel for the speakers, I do wish I could hear them somewhere, store limiting factors or no (and I do feel you get more from such an experience over checking a TV out in a store environment, at the very least).
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gecko85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
That's good advice (or at the very least, a good cautionary tale), but while it's bad enough that I can't even go to a store and listen to a lot of those, I certainly wont have the opportunity to test drive them in my space. It certainly would be a good idea, given I live in a 100 year old brick loft building with a lot of concrete. Also, even my system is not what it will be. I have a 5 year old Sony receiver that is more on it's way out (either for a new Sony receiver of the same level, or perhaps an upcoming higher mid range Denon/Pioneer), so that would change it a bit too.

In the end, I kind of just have to cross my fingers and hope that my space will not be a severlely variable and limiting factor on this one. On the upside, I don't exactly have the most awesome sound setup right now and I am cool with it (cool, but am definitely ready for better), so I at least feel optimistic that as long as I do my research and get something quality, that it wont sound totally different/terrible in my home. but yes, for more finicky preference and just getting a relative feel for the speakers, I do wish I could hear them somewhere, store limiting factors or no (and I do feel you get more from such an experience over checking a TV out in a store environment, at the very least).
That's too bad, but understandable.

Take this for what you will, since I'm sure it was largely affected by my equipment, room acoustics, etc., but here are my thoughts on the three bookshelfs I listened to. (These were played through a Pioneer SC-1523-K in a smallish sized room...)

* B&W CM1: very full sound. Surprising amount of low-end given their size, but it was also tight. Nice sound stage. Highs were very crisp and detailed without sounding shrill.

* GoldenEar Aon 3: no low-end to speak of. These speakers *need* a sub-woofer. Highs were very nice. Crisp and detailed. Midrange was a bit forward for my taste, but not bad. Paired with a good sub, they're nice...but definitely not as full or rich as the B&Ws, particularly on their own.

* Definitive Technology SM55: I ordered these from Amazon after reading some very good reviews. They were far and away the worst of the bunch. They sounded no better than my old Athena Point 5's, and possibly worse. They got boxed up and sent back after 1 day of listening. Cost me $30 in return shipping, but it was worth it to at least see if they'd work out...they were the least expensive of the bunch. Highs were shrill in parts, with far less detail than the other two. Low end existed more then the GoldenEar's, but was muddled. Nowhere near as tight and accurate as the B&Ws.

Panasonic TC-P60ST60, Pioneer SC-1523-K, Oppo BDP-103D, Pioneer PL-550 + Cambridge Audio Azur 640P, B&W CM1 (fronts), B&W CM Centre, Athena Point 5 Mk II (rears), Hsu VTF-2
----------------------------------------
Sony 34XBR960, Onkyo TX-NR414, Sony PS3, Athena Point 5 Mk II (center and fronts), Wharfedale WH-2 (rears), Polk PSW10
Gecko85 is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 02:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
I dont understand what tone color is...but the idea of matching the speakers that do the most work together does at least make sense. I would not ideally want to buy 'any' speakers before listening to them, but I also don't want to get ones that I may like less (but cost a little less) just because of that. I still dont understand if "grills on" is a common hindrance for speakers (I was never aware of this) or if I may not even care/notice this perceived sound difference due to something that in my mind should be purely aesthetic and have no affect on sound.
Read this from Bluray Forum
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...84&postcount=3

The final decisions and choices are always up to you >> however, do not perceive speaker
sound quality based on cost, or looks - however, what you get will be a nice step up for you.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-10-2014, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Read this from Bluray Forum
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...84&postcount=3

The final decisions and choices are always up to you >> however, do not perceive speaker
sound quality based on cost, or looks - however, what you get will be a nice step up for you.
I understand the looks/cost do not make the speaker, however, those have not been my only metrics. If the Sonus Faber were just pretty overpriced paper weights I wouldnt waste the time or money. However a thoughtful balance of design AND performance ultimately is desirable. It's not a requirement either, but I'm also not going to deliberately get something less sexy if I happened to come across a bevy of well appointed and good sounding (at least to a trained audiohphile reviewers ear) speakers, and that's what I feel I have with the Martin Logans or the Sonus Fabers. The good looks certainly help differentiate them from other similarly priced (and similarly well received critically) items I looked over.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 05:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 150
With a company like Sonus Faber, you are paying a LOT for things like reputation, presentation, company status, etc. I would not recommend buying anything like this without hearing it for yourself - even better hearing it in your room. Since there is no dealer for these near you I'm not sure how you are going to get them - most high end speaker manufacturers don't allow internet / mail order sales. Paradigm doesn't either.

Going in a completely different direction, why not try an internet direct company that will ship a 5.1 speaker setup to you and allow for 30 - 90 day in home audition and return policy - some even pay for shipping one way.

The one that comes to mind is SVS - great subs and a new line high performance HT speakers, in home 45 day audition, and free shipping both ways - five speaker package pricing:

http://www.svsound.com/speakers/syst...e#.U78ipPldV8E
http://www.svsound.com/speakers/syst...e#.U78jIvldV8E


2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 06:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
why you felt the center channel for the Sonus was indeed not as good, or why the others you recommended were...a lot of that went over my head admittedly. I still am trying to figure out these ribbon tweeter things (at least I know what people are talking about now though, noticed the Martin Logan's have em, kind of neat looking, not sure if they are automatically considered better or not?).

Quote:
I share your concern with the center channel speaker - I don't even like the Mid-Tweeter-Mid D'Appolito array on its side design - this design has a lot of known issues like lobing with too high of a crossover frequency to the mids - bad design for off-axis listening and for dialog intelligibility.
This is actually a very well known issue with most center channel speakers. This Mid-Tweeter-Mid design is a two way speaker that requires the crossover frequency to be very high - so the tweeter doesn't get any low frequencies (that part isn't very important) which puts most human voices (movie dialog) going to the two mid-range drivers (speaker cones) on the sides of the tweeter (that is the problem). The reason this is bad - sound is nothing more than waves of pressure - forward then backward, when your head is EXACTLY in the middle of those two mid-range drivers the waves of sound hit your ears at the exact same time and it sounds great. Problem is when you move 3" to the side, the pressure wave of sound from one driver arrives sooner than the other which is going backward at that time - and it actually causes some of the sound to cancel making it sound hollow - now you cannot understand the movie dialog.

When the tweeter-mid are vertically stacked, it doesn't matter where you move side to side - the sound never cancels. The two woofers on the side can now be designed to be true woofers giving you excellent mid-bass from the center speaker and it sounds even more full and loud - not hollow.

Whether you understand that or not, I will tell you that I will NEVER buy another center speaker with a M-T-M configuration - they are poor designs being sold because companies don't want to re-engineer their center channel speakers correctly - especially at that price there is no excuse for it. All the new center designs - the most important speaker in your room - now have a vertical stack of tweeter - mid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
As for the Paradigms, it's funny, I was looking at the one rung down, glancing up at the referenced collection (wonder what made it better), and oddly, balking at the price (even though it indeed isn't really far off from where the Sonus towers are..especially if I cave and spring for the real wood...).
Yes, the Paradigm Monitor series are also very good speakers - if you have the money for a Paradigm system you can't go wrong. Even the center channel speakers from the Monitor series have a vertical mid-tweeter design and will allow you to better hear movie dialog. People (like me) keep these things for 10+ years.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
spincut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
With a company like Sonus Faber, you are paying a LOT for things like reputation, presentation, company status, etc. I would not recommend buying anything like this without hearing it for yourself - even better hearing it in your room. Since there is no dealer for these near you I'm not sure how you are going to get them - most high end speaker manufacturers don't allow internet / mail order sales. Paradigm doesn't either.

Going in a completely different direction, why not try an internet direct company that will ship a 5.1 speaker setup to you and allow for 30 - 90 day in home audition and return policy - some even pay for shipping one way.

The one that comes to mind is SVS - great subs and a new line high performance HT speakers, in home 45 day audition, and free shipping both ways - five speaker package pricing:

http://www.svsound.com/speakers/syst...e#.U78ipPldV8E
http://www.svsound.com/speakers/syst...e#.U78jIvldV8E


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
This is actually a very well known issue with most center channel speakers. This Mid-Tweeter-Mid design is a two way speaker that requires the crossover frequency to be very high - so the tweeter doesn't get any low frequencies (that part isn't very important) which puts most human voices (movie dialog) going to the two mid-range drivers (speaker cones) on the sides of the tweeter (that is the problem). The reason this is bad - sound is nothing more than waves of pressure - forward then backward, when your head is EXACTLY in the middle of those two mid-range drivers the waves of sound hit your ears at the exact same time and it sounds great. Problem is when you move 3" to the side, the pressure wave of sound from one driver arrives sooner than the other which is going backward at that time - and it actually causes some of the sound to cancel making it sound hollow - now you cannot understand the movie dialog.

When the tweeter-mid are vertically stacked, it doesn't matter where you move side to side - the sound never cancels. The two woofers on the side can now be designed to be true woofers giving you excellent mid-bass from the center speaker and it sounds even more full and loud - not hollow.

Whether you understand that or not, I will tell you that I will NEVER buy another center speaker with a M-T-M configuration - they are poor designs being sold because companies don't want to re-engineer their center channel speakers correctly - especially at that price there is no excuse for it. All the new center designs - the most important speaker in your room - now have a vertical stack of tweeter - mid.



Yes, the Paradigm Monitor series are also very good speakers - if you have the money for a Paradigm system you can't go wrong. Even the center channel speakers from the Monitor series have a vertical mid-tweeter design and will allow you to better hear movie dialog. People (like me) keep these things for 10+ years.
But if I can get reputation, presentation, AND performance all in one package, why not?

I don't think the 5.1 setup approach really suits what I'm going for, given I already have a 5.1 I intend to downcycle as I get piece. Well, I guess the center channel would just be done though.

Speaking of, I think the center I currently have is M-T-M actually..so by that logic, a new higher end M-T-M would still sound better at least. The better question is, if it's such an obviously flawed design, why is it prolific exactly? Surely there are well received center channels that have that design out there? Also, is there perhaps an upside (just as there is a possible downside to the vertically stacked ones?)?

I actually AM having second thoughts about the Sonus Faber Venere center at least. Even fans of the setup cite it as a weak link. Of course that would pose a problem of getting a center channel that would go well (I'm looking into that though).

Anyway, given that I'd like some nice, good performing, not too budget, but not too overpriced, good looking, good sounding fronts (preferably tower, although a very good pre-done bookshelf with a tower attached like the 2.0's would also probably work well), I'd rather not just go ahead and do an ID 5.1 system instead. Not to mention I just aren't grabbed by SVS. I actually passed them up when I was going sub shopping (the PB12 actually died of an apparently widespread issue that affected a lot of them, oh well) in favor of the Sunfire I have.

In the end, unless someone is just going to gift me speakers for free, I am going to be spending some money on whatever I'm getting, so I feel like it's kind of important whether I focus on these Sonus Fabers, or something more affordable than those, so I figure might as well spend the money on something I feel will really be worth it. I do agree hearing them (not that I always know exactly what to look for) in person or in my place would be nice, but I also feel like across the board glowing reviews saying exactly what I want to hear can't be chopped liver, room and ear variables aside. But yes, comparing it to anything else or making an informed decision nonetheless has been a little difficult.

But as you said about the Paradigms, if I cannot go wrong getting those without hearing them, given that many of the reviews I read about the SF Veneres compared to and favored them over said Paradigms, kind of implies one could then say the same about the SF Veneres too . Not sure but I think the Paradigms actually would cost more in the end (if you factor on the pricier center/s).

Last edited by spincut; 07-10-2014 at 07:55 PM.
spincut is offline  
Old 07-10-2014, 08:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,326
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

Speaking of, I think the center I currently have is M-T-M actually..so by that logic, a new higher end M-T-M would still sound better at least. The better question is, if it's such an obviously flawed design, why is it prolific exactly? Surely there are well received center channels that have that design out there?
While many MTM centers are flawed - it does not mean that they all are.
There are some good ones out there - and they measure and perform well.
It all comes down to the design and engineering, and the completed product.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post
Speaking of, I think the center I currently have is M-T-M actually..so by that logic, a new higher end M-T-M would still sound better at least. The better question is, if it's such an obviously flawed design, why is it prolific exactly? Surely there are well received center channels that have that design out there? Also, is there perhaps an upside (just as there is a possible downside to the vertically stacked ones?)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
While many MTM centers are flawed - it does not mean that they all are.
There are some good ones out there - and they measure and perform well.
It all comes down to the design and engineering, and the completed product.
Well, you can believe that MTM centers sound good or can sound good, but I am telling you that any MTM speaker on its side with two-way crossover above about 500Hz has a basic engineering design flaw that cannot be "designed around" - just google it - there are many respected web sites discussing this flaw.

Believe what you want but I am telling you speaker companies are selling sub-par designs and as you can see the new designs are moving away from MTM center speakers.

Here is my first hand experience:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
I had three identical speakers in my previous setup - three identical Paradigm Reference LCR-450a speakers. When I would do channel balance testing and the white noise was being stepped around the room to each speaker the fronts sounded the same, but the center sounded different. First I swapped the center speaker with the RF speaker - no change. Then, I swapped the speaker wires thinking the sound being sent to the center was different - nope, the speaker on top of the TV (now playing the Right channel sound) still sounded different. Then I moved a couple of things and stood the center channel on end - now it sounded just like the R / L main - but I couldn't leave it that way for several reasons.

These were M-T-M (Mid-Tweeter-Mid) D'Appolito array design speakers and were claimed to be "designed" to be placed on end for L / R or on side for center - this was a pure marketing lie. Center channel speakers using the M-T-M design will never sound the same on end vs. on their side - lobing and the tweeter too close to the reflective surface of the TV screen are some of the issues to blame.

My new system has a completely different center and L / R mains - the center has a vertically stacked Mid-Tweeter three-way center design (Paradigm CC-590 v.4) and the L / R mains are a 2.5-way design with a tweeter above two woofers (Paradigm Studio 40 v.4) - now when I step through the channel setup tones to each speaker they sound very, very close. These speakers were designed to be placed on a particular side and were designed to work together. Not marketing, but real speaker design and engineering at work here.
Here are some of the sites discussing this design flaw - even DIY speaker builders discussing the correct design for center speakers:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...hannel-designs
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ontal-mtm.html
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/ar...?t-219979.html

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off