Need high WAF speakers for HT. (B&W, Def Tech, Focal, MartinLogan, or…) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 17Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 94 Old 07-11-2014, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Need high WAF speakers for HT. (B&W, Def Tech, Focal, MartinLogan, or…)

I’m about to move into a new house and I’m trying to plan my home theater. I need to speakers for a 5.1 setup. This will be used almost exclusively for movies.

I have a Denon 1910 AVR. The room is 18’ wide by 16’ deep, but there are open doorways on both sides (floor plan attached). I plan on getting a decent sub soon – a SVS PB-1000 or at least a BIC F12 –so for the sake of this exercise let’s pretend I already have one of those two.

There are two big things that make this a lot more difficult than it should be:
  1. I have a limited budget -- around $500 or $600. In a perfect world, I’d be able to buy all 5 speakers for this amount of money. But if I need to, I could just buy two or three speakers now and then add the remaining speakers later when I have some extra cash. Even if I piecemeal a system, I don’t want to spend much more than $1,200 total
  2. WAF. This is the biggie. From her perspective, if we have to have speakers then they need to be close to invisible. She thinks something like Bose cubes are big enough. And she’d much rather they be white to match the walls. Speaker stands won’t be allowed so I’ll need to use wall mounts.

From what I’ve read, in order for sub to disappear as it should the crossover point needs to be no higher than 100Hz and you just can’t do that with really tiny speakers. So basically I want something that is as small as I can get without leaving a frequency gap or having to turn the sub crossover up over 100Hz.

I know that auditioning is always ideal, but since I don’t have the new sub yet I don’t think it would be representative. Besides, not all the speakers I’m interested in are available locally. I’ve come up with four contenders.

Focal Sib. I’d love for these to be as awesome as their marketing says. They have 5.125” woofer and claim a frequency response down to 75Hz. If that’s true I could set the crossover at 95 or 100Hz. They come in white. High WAF. And the best part is that I can get a full set of them for $500. They are the only option I’ve come up with that I can afford all of them today. Sounds too good to be true.

Bowers & Wilkins M-1. B&W seems to be a well-liked brand. These come in white and look great. They claim a Frequency response down to 64Hz, but with a 4” woofer can they really deliver? These are $240/ea so I’d only be able to get a pair to start off with.

Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000. Claim a low frequency response of 42Hz, which I don’t believe even though they have a 5.25” woofer. They manual says to set the sub crossover at 100Hz, which is acceptable. These come in white and are $220/ea so I’d only buy 2 or 3 to start.

Martin Logan Motion 4. These have similar specs to the B&W’s, but they are in a much larger case. They don’t come in white, but I really like the look when they are wall mounted. Each speaker is $240. Their shape doesn’t lend them to being used as a center so a Motion 8 would be needed as well. The Motion 8 costs $380, which is probably a deal breaker unless these blow all the other options out of the water.

I’d love to know what you guys think of the speakers on my short list. I’m open to new suggestions as well.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	livingroom.JPG
Views:	27
Size:	26.5 KB
ID:	157113  
cu_shane is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
RayGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
I’m about to move into a new house and I’m trying to plan my home theater. I need to speakers for a 5.1 setup. This will be used almost exclusively for movies.

I have a Denon 1910 AVR. The room is 18’ wide by 16’ deep, but there are open doorways on both sides (floor plan attached). I plan on getting a decent sub soon – a SVS PB-1000 or at least a BIC F12 –so for the sake of this exercise let’s pretend I already have one of those two.

There are two big things that make this a lot more difficult than it should be:
  1. I have a limited budget -- around $500 or $600. In a perfect world, I’d be able to buy all 5 speakers for this amount of money. But if I need to, I could just buy two or three speakers now and then add the remaining speakers later when I have some extra cash. Even if I piecemeal a system, I don’t want to spend much more than $1,200 total
  2. WAF. This is the biggie. From her perspective, if we have to have speakers then they need to be close to invisible. She thinks something like Bose cubes are big enough. And she’d much rather they be white to match the walls. Speaker stands won’t be allowed so I’ll need to use wall mounts.

From what I’ve read, in order for sub to disappear as it should the crossover point needs to be no higher than 100Hz and you just can’t do that with really tiny speakers. So basically I want something that is as small as I can get without leaving a frequency gap or having to turn the sub crossover up over 100Hz.

I know that auditioning is always ideal, but since I don’t have the new sub yet I don’t think it would be representative. Besides, not all the speakers I’m interested in are available locally. I’ve come up with four contenders.

Focal Sib. I’d love for these to be as awesome as their marketing says. They have 5.125” woofer and claim a frequency response down to 75Hz. If that’s true I could set the crossover at 95 or 100Hz. They come in white. High WAF. And the best part is that I can get a full set of them for $500. They are the only option I’ve come up with that I can afford all of them today. Sounds too good to be true.

Bowers & Wilkins M-1. B&W seems to be a well-liked brand. These come in white and look great. They claim a Frequency response down to 64Hz, but with a 4” woofer can they really deliver? These are $240/ea so I’d only be able to get a pair to start off with.

Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000. Claim a low frequency response of 42Hz, which I don’t believe even though they have a 5.25” woofer. They manual says to set the sub crossover at 100Hz, which is acceptable. These come in white and are $220/ea so I’d only buy 2 or 3 to start.

Martin Logan Motion 4. These have similar specs to the B&W’s, but they are in a much larger case. They don’t come in white, but I really like the look when they are wall mounted. Each speaker is $240. Their shape doesn’t lend them to being used as a center so a Motion 8 would be needed as well. The Motion 8 costs $380, which is probably a deal breaker unless these blow all the other options out of the water.

I’d love to know what you guys think of the speakers on my short list. I’m open to new suggestions as well.
Add Minx to the list ........ but you'll need a sub.
RayGuy is offline  
post #3 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Add Minx to the list ........ but you'll need a sub.
Thanks. I love the size of the Minx, but those say they only go down to 120Hz. I'm worried that they won't be full enough to provide a really good experience even with a SVS sub. Do you disagree? Or do you know anything about the speakers I listed that do go lower?
cu_shane is offline  
post #4 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 05:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 279
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
I’m about to move into a new house and I’m trying to plan my home theater. I need to speakers for a 5.1 setup. This will be used almost exclusively for movies.

I have a Denon 1910 AVR. The room is 18’ wide by 16’ deep, but there are open doorways on both sides (floor plan attached). I plan on getting a decent sub soon – a SVS PB-1000 or at least a BIC F12 –so for the sake of this exercise let’s pretend I already have one of those two.

There are two big things that make this a lot more difficult than it should be:
  1. I have a limited budget -- around $500 or $600. In a perfect world, I’d be able to buy all 5 speakers for this amount of money. But if I need to, I could just buy two or three speakers now and then add the remaining speakers later when I have some extra cash. Even if I piecemeal a system, I don’t want to spend much more than $1,200 total
  2. WAF. This is the biggie. From her perspective, if we have to have speakers then they need to be close to invisible. She thinks something like Bose cubes are big enough. And she’d much rather they be white to match the walls. Speaker stands won’t be allowed so I’ll need to use wall mounts.
From what I’ve read, in order for sub to disappear as it should the crossover point needs to be no higher than 100Hz and you just can’t do that with really tiny speakers. So basically I want something that is as small as I can get without leaving a frequency gap or having to turn the sub crossover up over 100Hz.

I know that auditioning is always ideal, but since I don’t have the new sub yet I don’t think it would be representative. Besides, not all the speakers I’m interested in are available locally. I’ve come up with four contenders.
Focal Sib. I’d love for these to be as awesome as their marketing says. They have 5.125” woofer and claim a frequency response down to 75Hz. If that’s true I could set the crossover at 95 or 100Hz. They come in white. High WAF. And the best part is that I can get a full set of them for $500. They are the only option I’ve come up with that I can afford all of them today. Sounds too good to be true.

Bowers & Wilkins M-1. B&W seems to be a well-liked brand. These come in white and look great. They claim a Frequency response down to 64Hz, but with a 4” woofer can they really deliver? These are $240/ea so I’d only be able to get a pair to start off with.

Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000. Claim a low frequency response of 42Hz, which I don’t believe even though they have a 5.25” woofer. They manual says to set the sub crossover at 100Hz, which is acceptable. These come in white and are $220/ea so I’d only buy 2 or 3 to start.

Martin Logan Motion 4. These have similar specs to the B&W’s, but they are in a much larger case. They don’t come in white, but I really like the look when they are wall mounted. Each speaker is $240. Their shape doesn’t lend them to being used as a center so a Motion 8 would be needed as well. The Motion 8 costs $380, which is probably a deal breaker unless these blow all the other options out of the water.
I’d love to know what you guys think of the speakers on my short list. I’m open to new suggestions as well.

Hi there, A happy wife,...is a happy life! I'm sure we can help you out here..
Deckard97 is offline  
post #5 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 06:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
SMHarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Add the KEF e305's to that list.
http://www.eisa.eu/award/11/european...2013-2014.html

http://www.kefdirect.com/e305-system.html

Their T range is also a good choice.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
SMHarman is offline  
post #6 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
Add the KEF e305's to that list.
http://www.eisa.eu/award/11/european...2013-2014.html

http://www.kefdirect.com/e305-system.html

Their T range is also a good choice.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
I can't find the KEF E305 center for sale individually, which means I would need to buy the whole package, which is too expensive. The T101's look like a good option. I'll put them on the list.

So the list is getting longer, not shorter. Does anyone think any of these speakers stand out above the others? Is one of them sub-par and should be scratched off?
cu_shane is offline  
post #7 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 10:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 4,745
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 409
The PB-1000 and F12 are not in the same league, so that's probably your fist decision. The latter is a well regarded budget subwoofer, but the former is just a well regarded subwoofer. That's a critical distinction - there will be an audible difference between them.

Assuming your room has 8 foot ceilings you're looking at a minimum of 2300 ft^3, which is a sword that cuts both ways. Really small speakers will struggle to provide sufficient output and realism because of the volume of space. On the plus side, you can get larger speakers because the room will help make them look smaller.

Take the lower frequency response numbers in the speaker specifications with a grain of salt (a tablespoon full in the case of DefTech's). All of those speakers might actually be able to produce output at the frequencies they say, but at what SPL level? Just making a sound is far different then making a usable sound at a specific frequency.

Although they won't peg the WAF meter you might want to investigate the Wave Crest Audio HVL-1. They're a lot of speaker for the money. Wave Crest doesn't make a dedicated center but when I wrote that review I was using one horizontally and it worked beautifully.
oneeyeblind and dsrussell like this.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
JimWilson is online now  
post #8 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 10:19 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,192
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
I can't find the KEF E305 center for sale individually, which means I would need to buy the whole package, which is too expensive. The T101's look like a good option. I'll put them on the list.

So the list is getting longer, not shorter. Does anyone think any of these speakers stand out above the others? Is one of them sub-par and should be scratched off?
No one can guarantee which is the best - however, Focal makes good stuff
They can work-out nice for you.

Definitive is decent - and no, they do not go to 42 hz - and their bass begins to
roll off above 100 hz - (however, it has a slow roll-off) >> one reason why the
100 hz crossover is recommended.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #9 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elihawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 2,551
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 174
The Minx will go about as low as any speaker that size! Simple laws of physics...The Bose cube won't produce much under 200hz...

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
Elihawk is online now  
post #10 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 10:31 AM
Member
 
Fant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I picked up an energy take 5 ($350 delivered) and a refurbished marantz nr1403 from a4l for $265 delivered. I now have a good system that has a great WAF and good sound for $615 delivered. I've already accepted that I won't be upgrading this system since it's for a room that I just want clearer sound so I'm not too concerned that the sub is not the best. WAF was more important for this room. I already have a family room that has a denon / nht / velodyne setup for serious movie watching. I agree it's hard for those of us that do not have the time to check out all the speakers in a store.
Fant is offline  
post #11 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked: 460
cu_shane: I'll give some input on the bookshelf speakers I have auditioned.

StudioMonitor 55: Definitive Technology is notorious for their exaggerated specs. It's hard to understand why they place value in bogus marketing. It's really too bad because I auditioned a couple of Def Tech bookshelf speakers and enjoyed one in particular, the SM-55. They have surprising bass, performed very well on the music I brought with me, and are an attractive speaker in piano black. Def Tech foolishly states 32Hz, which would give anyone a good chuckle. In one of the reviews, the reviewer states down 3 dB at 44 Hz, which is a lot more believable, and quite surprising performance for a speaker this size. Plus they match your price range for two speakers. Here are a couple of reviews (I seem to be posting these URLs a lot these days):

http://hometheaterreview.com/definit...r-55-reviewed/
http://www.stereophile.com/content/d...55-loudspeaker

Motion 4: I've always been a huge fan of Martin Logan ESLs for decades, and thought one day I'd own a pair. I didn't know how a small ML bookshelf would fair, but was curious enough to audition them. What a disappointment. I stopped the audition within 30 seconds. I didn't need to listen any longer.

Of course, everyone is different in what they like in a speaker. That's why you need to audition them and see and hear for yourself. There is nothing more important than the mains (and center for a 3.1 or greater), other than a good subwoofer. So do not scrimp money on your main speakers (nor the sub).

End of advice.
dsrussell is offline  
post #12 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for all the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
The PB-1000 and F12 are not in the same league, so that's probably your fist decision.
Fair point. I'm planning on the PB-1000

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Although they won't peg the WAF meter you might want to investigate the Wave Crest Audio
I read your review and they are certainly appealing. I'll keep them in mind in case I end up going with bookshelf speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
The Minx will go about as low as any speaker that size! Simple laws of physics...The Bose cube won't produce much under 200hz...
I agree. That's one of the reasons that I all the speakers I'm looking at are 3 or 4 times the size of the Minx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Motion 4: I've always been a huge fan of Martin Logan ESLs for decades, and thought one day I'd own a pair. I didn't know how a small ML bookshelf would fair, but was curious enough to audition them. What a disappointment. I stopped the audition within 30 seconds. I didn't need to listen any longer.
I read a similar review somewhere else. These are coming off the list and the KEF T series are going on.
cu_shane is offline  
post #13 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
RayGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
Thanks. I love the size of the Minx, but those say they only go down to 120Hz. I'm worried that they won't be full enough to provide a really good experience even with a SVS sub. Do you disagree? Or do you know anything about the speakers I listed that do go lower?
And they BARELY get to 120 ..... that's the trade-off of incredibly small speakers. I only recommend them when folks express a need for high-WAF speakers, as they are similar to BOSE in form factor but are a lot better speaker. In a room of that size, with all the adjoining spaces, the Minx (and the SVS for that matter) will have trouble filling the room with sound. If you want it LOUD, neither of these choices will be adequate.

If you can live with moderate volume, you would be best to cross those over at 140 or 150. I suspect that the SVS would adequately handle the 150 crossover point , but you would have to position your sub up in the front very near the speakers, otherwise you will have sounds coming from the sub that are not integrated with the speakers.

FYI, the same limitation would apply to the Focal Sib ... small speakers are limiting, it's the nature of the beast. If it were me, I'd prefer larger mains that can cross over at a lower frequency, but I'm not the one who has to sleep on the couch ...

As to the speakers listed, you will have the best luck with Def Tech as far as crossover point and fuller sound from the main speakers. The issue then becomes the WAF, as these are also quite a bit larger. That said, the proof is ALWAYS in the hearing, So go listen to as many speakers as you can. Even good speakers that measure similarly will often have very different sonic signatures. What you like may differ very much from what I may like (or what your wife may like).

Doing your homework will actually save you money in the long run, as you will not be rushing out to change the speakers you bought, sight-unseen, on some recommendation you got from a stranger on a forum.

Last edited by RayGuy; 07-12-2014 at 12:44 PM.
RayGuy is offline  
post #14 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Right now the Focal Sibs and the KEFs are my front runners. I read some reviews where people said they like the KEF E301s better than the T301s so both are up for consideration.

Everything I have read on the Sibs has been positive, but most of the reviews I've found are old from when they first came out and cost 3 times as much (not that that matters, but $ can effect perception).

Most of the reviews I've read on the T301's have been very positive. Some have dismissed them along with all thin wall mount speakers -- I wonder how much of that is just a preconceived bias. And some said they like the T series, but they like the E series even better.

I'm assuming that these all sound pretty good for what they are. So maybe I should decide based on bass response? Meaning, which of these three (Sibs, T301s, E301s) would give me the most flexibility positioning a PB-1000 sub without having to worry about localization?

Given the limitations that I have, do you guys think that is a reasonable way to make my decision and if so, which of these do you think would prevail over the others?
cu_shane is offline  
post #15 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
As to the speakers listed, you will have the best luck with Def Tech as far as crossover point and fuller sound from the main speakers.
This is great info. Does these stay true even against the KEF E301 or T301 speakers


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Doing your homework will actually save you money in the long run, as you will not be rushing out to change the speakers you bought, sight-unseen, on some recommendation you got from a stranger on a forum.
Of course, you are right. Maybe if I can get it narrowed down to two options with the help from you stranger , then I can figure out a way to audition those...
cu_shane is offline  
post #16 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:48 PM
Senior Member
 
niccolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 38
In these kind of severely WAF-constrained situations, I'm struck on-wall speakers don't get mentioned more. Presumably there are lots of folks who don't want to put holes in their walls for in-wall speakers, but want something mounted as much out of the way as possible. There seem to be a number of on-wall speakers from reputable companies, but they don't get mentioned much on here as best I can tell. Given WAF and kid-constraints, that seems a bit surprising. Just something I've been thinking about as I try to advise a friend with serious space and kid constraints.

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
niccolo is offline  
post #17 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 12:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
RayGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
Right now the Focal Sibs and the KEFs are my front runners. I read some reviews where people said they like the KEF E301s better than the T301s so both are up for consideration.

Everything I have read on the Sibs has been positive, but most of the reviews I've found are old from when they first came out and cost 3 times as much (not that that matters, but $ can effect perception).

Most of the reviews I've read on the T301's have been very positive. Some have dismissed them along with all thin wall mount speakers -- I wonder how much of that is just a preconceived bias. And some said they like the T series, but they like the E series even better.

I'm assuming that these all sound pretty good for what they are. So maybe I should decide based on bass response? Meaning, which of these three (Sibs, T301s, E301s) would give me the most flexibility positioning a PB-1000 sub without having to worry about localization?

Given the limitations that I have, do you guys think that is a reasonable way to make my decision and if so, which of these do you think would prevail over the others?
You will need to have the sub in the front of the room with the sibs. Do the sibs specify the crossover point? If it is any higher than 80 (and I suspect it is, given the size of the speakers)... you WILL have localization issues. In fact, even at 80, depending on the room, position, and your ears, there may still be some occasional localization issues.
RayGuy is offline  
post #18 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked: 460
cu_shane: As has been stated by several, only you know what you want in a speaker. When you audition, have fun. Bring your favorite music (several genres if you can) that you know by rote, and above all, bring a dB meter. If you don't have one, a good audio store should provide one for you to use. A lot of unsuspecting buyers get fooled because the sales staff will either up the volume a couple of dBs on a competing speaker or the speaker is a bit more efficient. The perceived loudness difference, which can be minor, can lead one to gravitate to that speaker, when in reality it may actually be inferior. A dB meter makes it a level playing field.
dsrussell is offline  
post #19 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 01:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
LowTech1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
In these kind of severely WAF-constrained situations, I'm struck on-wall speakers don't get mentioned more. Presumably there are lots of folks who don't want to put holes in their walls for in-wall speakers, but want something mounted as much out of the way as possible. There seem to be a number of on-wall speakers from reputable companies, but they don't get mentioned much on here as best I can tell. Given WAF and kid-constraints, that seems a bit surprising. Just something I've been thinking about as I try to advise a friend with serious space and kid constraints.
+1 Why not find something like this.. Most brands carry wall mount speakers. You can find them used a lot cheaper also I'm sure.
Plus if your tv is wall mounted and you have these speakers surrounding them,you wife will love it. Nice clean look. I know my girlfriend could care less. She loves My martin logan ESL's,she helped me pick them out after trying many different speakers. She loves watching movies at my place. I was going to sell my butt kicker a while back and she said she would buy it and put it right back under the couch..lol
LowTech1 is offline  
post #20 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 01:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 3,890
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Liked: 202
http://monolith-theater.net/hal/wp-c..._3632t_993.jpg

+ white paint haha

Seriously though soon as she said Bose....get divorced. That is a large room, I'd look into standmount speakers at the very least. Ignore your wife, get what you want.

Do you tell her what and not what to wear? No. So don't let her boss you around.
oneeyeblind and cesar123 like this.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

fatbottom is offline  
post #21 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 02:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
RayGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
This is great info. Does these stay true even against the KEF E301 or T301 speakers


Of course, you are right. Maybe if I can get it narrowed down to two options with the help from you stranger , then I can figure out a way to audition those...
See this:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...speaker-system

They say that you must crossover at 120 to not have a hole in the frequency response. Not to mention they are a lot more expensive than the e301 and your crossover point is no better .... So, I would eliminate those from consideration.

Generally, small main speakers mean a high crossover point and the sub at the front of the room. That said, if you are willing to go $700 for your main pair that opens up another level of quality/extension. But, can you go with something that isn't white? If so, you might look at Def Tech Mythos Gem XL.

This is a very high quality speaker in a pretty small form factor. I have heard the Gems (not the XL) and they are a really fine sounding speaker with good apparent bass extension. The XLs are even better in this regard, and should allow you to crossover at 80 (the recommendation on their site) to reduce your sub localization issues (I'm assuming your wife is against the sub being in the front of the room?).

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/mythos-gem-xl

Are you really upping your budget (T301 Kefs are 750/pair retail)?

Last edited by RayGuy; 07-12-2014 at 02:51 PM.
RayGuy is offline  
post #22 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 02:22 PM
Newbie
 
toonontherun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Have you looked at Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE? You can get five of those with a Rythmik LV12R for just under $1,200.
oneeyeblind likes this.
toonontherun is offline  
post #23 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 02:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
LowTech1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 44
The problem with this whole situation is she doesn't care about home theater. She knows nothing about it or wants to. Watching a movie thru tv speakers is good enough for her. So,this guys is screwed. He will end up with bose. I hope not,but sounds like she gets her way more often than not. I obviously don't know his wife,and maybe she is great and he is happy,but there are so many things that make me stay single..To me its just not worth the trade off's.
oneeyeblind likes this.
LowTech1 is offline  
post #24 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 06:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 4,745
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
http://monolith-theater.net/hal/wp-c..._3632t_993.jpg

+ white paint haha

Seriously though soon as she said Bose....get divorced. That is a large room, I'd look into standmount speakers at the very least. Ignore your wife, get what you want.

Do you tell her what and not what to wear? No. So don't let her boss you around.
This thread seems to be a magnet for knuckleheads who feel compelled to post useless drivel like this. Unbelievable...
laulau, RayGuy and GIEGAR like this.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
JimWilson is online now  
post #25 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
cu_shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
and above all, bring a dB meter.
I'm a little embarrassed to show my ignorance, but what should I be looking for with the dB meter? It's not simply higher = better is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
Seriously though soon as she said Bose....get divorced. That is a large room, I'd look into standmount speakers at the very least. Ignore your wife, get what you want.

Do you tell her what and not what to wear? No. So don't let her boss you around.
Just to clarify, she didn't bring up Bose..I did as a size reference. I will not be buying Bose. And no, I don't tell her what to wear, but she doesn't tell me what to wear either so that is a non sequitur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
That said, if you are willing to go $700 for your main pair that opens up another level of quality/extension. But, can you go with something that isn't white? If so, you might look at Def Tech Mythos Gem XL.

This is a very high quality speaker in a pretty small form factor. I have heard the Gems (not the XL) and they are a really fine sounding speaker with good apparent bass extension. The XLs are even better in this regard, and should allow you to crossover at 80 (the recommendation on their site) to reduce your sub localization issues (I'm assuming your wife is against the sub being in the front of the room?).

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/mythos-gem-xl

Are you really upping your budget (T301 Kefs are 750/pair retail)?
I'm not upping my budget that much. I found the T301's open box on accessories4less for $550/pair. But I found the Gem XL's online for about the same price. They don't come in white, which isn't ideal, but they are only 4.5" deep and wall mountable so I'll put them on the list and start reading up on them. 80Hz recommended crossover is very appealing.

So right now my list is:
- Def Tech Mythos Gem XLs
- Def Tech Promonitor 1000's (although it sounds like the Gem XLs should probably knock these off the list)
- KEF E301s...this post indicates I should be able to set the crossover at < 100Hz KEF Owners Thread

- The Focal Sibs are still on the list mainly because of the price. I can't find anywhere that says what the crossover should be set to though. They have 5 1/8" woofers so maybe it is 100Hz or less? **EDIT: accessories4less spec page says crossover @ 120 Hz. Crutchfield specs say crossover at @110 Hz. Bummer.

Last edited by cu_shane; 07-12-2014 at 07:39 PM.
cu_shane is offline  
post #26 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 09:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,192
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
- The Focal Sibs are still on the list mainly because of the price. I can't find anywhere that says what the crossover should be set to though. They have 5 1/8" woofers so maybe it is 100Hz or less? **EDIT: accessories4less spec page says crossover @ 120 Hz. Crutchfield specs say crossover at @110 Hz. Bummer.
That is the fixed crossover for the sub, when you use the red and white RCA inputs

When you use the coaxial LFE input, you bypass the sub crossover - and then you
can use the receiver to set a lower crossover. The sub starts rolling off at 120 hz.

However, I would not go lower than 100 hz with the sats - the speaker placement
and the room, will be the deciding factor for 100 or 120 hz crossover.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30

Last edited by zieglj01; 07-12-2014 at 10:58 PM.
zieglj01 is offline  
post #27 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 09:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
SMHarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
I can't find the KEF E305 center for sale individually, which means I would need to buy the whole package, which is too expensive. The T101's look like a good option. I'll put them on the list.

So the list is getting longer, not shorter. Does anyone think any of these speakers stand out above the others? Is one of them sub-par and should be scratched off?
Contact KEFdirect.com. I believe they sell the parts. I know some have bought a 5.0 set. Others a set with part white and part black etc e.g White 5 and black .1

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
SMHarman is offline  
post #28 of 94 Old 07-12-2014, 10:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,192
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
But I found the Gem XL's online for about the same price. They don't come in white, which isn't ideal, but they are only 4.5" deep and wall mountable so I'll put them on the list and start reading up on them. 80Hz recommended crossover is very appealing.
I would not hold my breath on that - the XL bass begins to roll off quickly at 100 hz
Definitive tends to be optimistic.

You may find with a lot of these speakers, regardless of size - that they may sound
better with a 120 hz crossover.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is offline  
post #29 of 94 Old 07-13-2014, 02:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
RayGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
I would not hold my breath on that - the XL bass begins to roll off quickly at 100 hz
Definitive tends to be optimistic.

You may find with a lot of these speakers, regardless of size - that they may sound
better with a 120 hz crossover.
I have searched for test results of the Gem XL and could not find a single example of the actual frequency response of the speaker. Clearly the Def Tech claimed low end fr (50) is EXTREMELY liberal, and does not stand up to scrutiny. That said, I found a few reviews by folks that crossed it over at 80 and were satisfied with the results. Other reviewers thought the speaker sounded better crossed over at 100. So, it seems that a crossover of 80 is at the very limit of the speaker's ability to perform, and 100 might be the better selection ...

Last edited by RayGuy; 07-13-2014 at 02:09 AM.
RayGuy is offline  
post #30 of 94 Old 07-13-2014, 02:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by cu_shane View Post
I'm a little embarrassed to show my ignorance, but what should I be looking for with the dB meter? It's not simply higher = better is it?
cu_shane: I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. My apologies. I bring a dB meter along when I am auditioning several different speakers systems. I play a piece of music that I know extremely well and have them turn up the volume to the listening level I prefer. When a dynamic part of the music comes along, I check the dB meter and give a mental note to where the dB meter peaked. I make mental notes throughout for different dynamic areas (loud and quiet) in the music. I do this so the next speaker system I try out is played as closely to the same loudness level as the first.

The reason for doing this, I already explained. It's human nature to perceive a speaker as being better if it is played a couple of dBs louder. Add one's own perception (or I should say, misperception) to the sales person grinning from ear-to-ear and saying words such as, "Doesn't this speaker feel more open, more refine and powerful?", and you get the idea. It happens all the time. The dB meter is there to help level the playing field and stop sales people from steering you wrong, either unknowingly or on purpose. One can't properly judge the merits of two different speakers systems if they are not played at the same SPLs.
GIEGAR likes this.
dsrussell is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
b&w , bowers & wilkins , Definitive Technology , Focal , Martin Logan

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off