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post #61 of 89 Old 07-17-2014, 02:21 PM
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From your pictures, it looks like you have a medium-sized domestic room on a slab with tiles on the floor.

At a $1000 budget, I would look for some used largish (big boxes beat small boxes) loudspeakers for a couple hundred bucks. 1960's JBL, ALTEC, E-V, University, etc. will be a good score, but don't overlook Klipsch of the pre-mid-1980's. Big boxes that you need a pickup truck to move are often fantastic deals, because people underestimate to cost of replacement and how good they sound.

Sealed box design. Sealed box will give you the smoothest, lowest-extending, lower-distortion bass. 15" driver is optimum. Not the loudest, which will be provided by a high-distortion smaller driver with "killer X-Max" in a tuned vented box with a plate amplifier bolted on. You said that you listen to music, which is why sound quality matters. I'm assuming that you don't want to build the speakers into the walls (which has advantages). I really like co-axial drivers like Tannoy, Altec 604x, and some KEF.
Bi-amp capable loudspeakers are worth researching and extra amp channels and crossover can give a lot of good results (including driver protection that a passive crossover in a full-range box cannot do).

Treating the room will make everything sound better, and will not be expensive, especially when considering the audible benefit. I would get some foam and roll it up in open weave cloth to make a cylinder about 18" diameter to place in the corners of the room. All 4 vertical corners, floor to ceiling. Next step: all 4 ceiling horizontal corners get the same rolled cloth covered tubes (more of a PITA because of horizontal attachment). Don't do this on the floor corners because it uses too much floor space and attracts lots of hard to clean dirt. Still under budget, if you DIY with a sewing machine.

Best wishes.
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post #62 of 89 Old 07-17-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivermacias View Post
I'll be going to best buy today with the Magnolia center and listen at different bookshelfs, hopefully they have a good selection. After that I'll be going to my friends house to listen to the KEF's, but I also have in mind that the KEF's are in a home theater which will be calibrated very well and in an ideal situation.


What I want to listen for is crisp sound (such as in a movie when glass shatters that crisp sound of individual glass pieces hitting the ground) but again I also want them to sound good with music. Hey I'm being picky but when dropping good money why not right, after all its a hobby.
That's great that you are going out and auditioning speakers. And it's important to be picky.

While auditioning several speakers at one facility, I recommend taking along a dB meter in order to level match the speakers you are auditioning (I've recommended this several times in the past weeks). It will present you with a more level playing field. Why? It's human nature to prefer a speaker that is just a bit louder than another that you've listened to. If each speaker system is being played at the same sound levels, one can concentrate more on the speaker's quality -- articulation, sound stage, smoothness, etc. If you don't have a dB meter, ask that they provide you with one. If they can't do that, you'll have to do the best you can with your ears. Also, bring the music you extremely familiar with and enjoy yourself. Also, at your friend's house, see if he can't demonstrate the KEF's without a subwoofer or other speakers going at the same time.

Let us know how it went.
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post #63 of 89 Old 07-17-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by drivermacias View Post
I'll be going to best buy today with the Magnolia center and listen at different bookshelfs, hopefully they have a good selection. After that I'll be going to my friends house to listen to the KEF's, but I also have in mind that the KEF's are in a home theater which will be calibrated very well and in an ideal situation.


What I want to listen for is crisp sound (such as in a movie when glass shatters that crisp sound of individual glass pieces hitting the ground) but again I also want them to sound good with music. Hey I'm being picky but when dropping good money why not right, after all its a hobby.
You should listen to the Sony Core's while you are there.
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post #64 of 89 Old 07-17-2014, 03:42 PM
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I've owned some Infinity Interludes (IL-40, IL-10 and one of the IL center channels), which are a decent step up from the Primus line, and they were ok, but they are long gone. I sold them within a few months of getting them. I bought them used, and sold them for the same exact amount I paid, no loss, and I got to play around with them.
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post #65 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
That's great that you are going out and auditioning speakers. And it's important to be picky.

While auditioning several speakers at one facility, I recommend taking along a dB meter in order to level match the speakers you are auditioning (I've recommended this several times in the past weeks). It will present you with a more level playing field. Why? It's human nature to prefer a speaker that is just a bit louder than another that you've listened to. If each speaker system is being played at the same sound levels, one can concentrate more on the speaker's quality -- articulation, sound stage, smoothness, etc. If you don't have a dB meter, ask that they provide you with one. If they can't do that, you'll have to do the best you can with your ears. Also, bring the music you extremely familiar with and enjoy yourself. Also, at your friend's house, see if he can't demonstrate the KEF's without a subwoofer or other speakers going at the same time.

Let us know how it went.

Ok so the trip to best buy was "ok" (way better setup than frys) and the tech there had me listen to these...http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-and-wilkins-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speakers-pair-painted-gloss-black/1279177.p?id=1218246671747&skuId=1279177&st=catego ryid$abcat0205000&cp=6&lp=4 he said they were the best they had there. He played some music and yes they sounded loud and the highs were really good. He said in order to get the best out of them I would need a sub which I knew. I told him I was looking at getting the Denon e400 and he said no that you want to buy a receiver priced about the same as the speaker. So he showed me a pioneer receiver priced at $1600 which was powering the speakers. I had a hard time believing that you need a receiver that crazy. I asked him to play the Energy speaker but he didn't he just say if I liked the high tones (not loud but bright) sound from these I wouldn't like the energy's since they play lower. I was there he should have just played them. He also played some Martin Logans but I wasn't very impressed. Another customer entered so I pretty much was done.


I then went to my friends house to try out the Kef ls50, WOW!, he had me sit in front and center of his theater, turned off the center speaker only had the 2 ls50's on and a subwoofer. I got up about three times to make sure the center wasn't on. The way the sound dispersed thoughtout the room was amazing. He was playing some raw recorded music and some sade. I moved from sitting in front of the speaker to the side a bit and I could still hear the same amount of highs. Looks like how the tweeter is set in the middle of the mid woofer, it helps to disperse the sound. The sound was so crisp and you can hear the symbols so clearly. When the keynotes played on the piano you can almost picture the person playing it. He didn't blast the sound either. I think he had it at 60. The room was about 30-40 feet in length so we went to the back of the room, he put it up to about 80 and it got very loud, I could just see his mouth moving but I couldn't hear him because of the loudness. It wasn't a bad loud, you can still hear very clear voices and the highs were not distorted at all. He told me it wasn't really fair because he has a very good subwoofer and good subwoofer can make an average speaker sound great. He has a Denon receiver (forgot to ask the model) that was pushing the speakers but then he purchased an Anthem (forgot to ask the model) and he said it sounded a lot better. He was telling me speakers will sound different with receivers so you have to keep trying until you find a match you like. He also said to use Kimber Kable to wire the speakers as this will make a big difference as well. He also mentioned he purchased an $80 power plug for his receiver and that increased the quality of sound believe it or not. Based on how his system sounded I had to believe everything he said.


Sucks I didn't get to audition a lot of speakers but he told me finding these I took a big short cut and even if they were $5000 they would be a good buy. I guess stereophiles review were right on point...


Now I gotta start looking for these speakers on sale lol. He also mentioned to get the KEF R600c as a center if I felt like I needed it since it has the same type of driver/tweeter.


Your thoughts....
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post #66 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 12:30 AM
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No arguing that the KEF ls50's are excellent speakers, you won't go wrong should you decide on them. I won't open the can of worms regarding special cables and power cords other than saying it's snake oil for the most part. The ideal center for the ls50 is another ls50 (they are available separately). They are a good deal over your $1k budget though. B&W are also fine speakers. I have a pair of 684 floorstanders as my l&r in my 5.1 system and like them a lot. You should be able to find a pair of those for around your $1k budget. Go back to Magnolia and listen to everything they have, hopefully with a better salesman. His telling you the receiver should cost the same as the speakers is a crock. Whatever you do, try and buy from someplace that has a good return policy should you get the speakers home and not like them. Look at someone like Aperion who has a great return policy and free shipping. There's many other ID brands out there, most with liberal return policies.

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post #67 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post
No arguing that the KEF ls50's are excellent speakers, you won't go wrong should you decide on them. I won't open the can of worms regarding special cables and power cords other than saying it's snake oil for the most part. The ideal center fro the ls50 is another ls50 (they are available separately). They are a good deal over your $1k budget though. B&W are also fine speakers. I have a pair of 684 floorstanders as my l&r in my 5.1 system. You should be able to find a pair of those for around your $1k budget. Try and buy from someplace that has a good return policy should you get the speakers home and not like them. Look at someone like Aperion who has a great return policy and free shipping.

I've pushed up my budget to about $2k now after listening to these 2 speakers. I wonder if at a $2k budget, would the KEF's be the best LRC or if I should look at a different set?
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post #68 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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He mentioned also that I couldn't go wrong with HSU or Energy or any Canadian brand since the country funds them for audio research so they have very good quality stuff.
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post #69 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 02:31 AM
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I have been doing this a long time - and one thing you will learn, is to eat the fish and spit out the bones.

You do not need to spend the same amount on the receiver as the speakers.
Also Kimber cable has no special magic, where it will transfigure/transform the sound.

You only need clean power to drive the speakers - and the proper awg speaker wire to transmit the sound.

Be careful about all that snake-oil, there is no magic in that > I can drive $200 speakers and $2,500 ones
with The Same Receiver and the Same speaker Cable!!!!!

Now there are a lot of good speakers out there - and $2000 can get you a nice system - and most of that
should be put towards the speakers - the speakers make the biggest difference in sound - and the key is
to place them properly.
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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30

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post #70 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been doing this a long time - and one thing you will learn, is to eat the fish and spit out the bones.

You do not need to spend the same amount on the receiver as the speakers.
Also Kimber cable has no special magic, where it will transfigure/transform the sound.

You only need clean power to drive the speakers - and the proper awg speaker wire to transmit the sound.

Be careful about all that snake-oil, there is no magic in that > I can drive $200 speakers and $2,500 ones
with The Same Receiver and the Same speaker Cable!!!!!

Now there are a lot of good speakers out there - and $2000 can get you a nice system - and most of that
should be put towards the speakers - the speakers make the biggest difference in sound - and the key is
to place them properly.
What setup would you recommend?
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post #71 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivermacias View Post
What setup would you recommend?
Since you like KEF - from KEF Direct
Bookshelf speakers
http://www.kefdirect.com/q300-booksh...udspeaker.html

Center channel
http://www.kefdirect.com/q300-booksh...udspeaker.html

Outlaw subwoofer on sale - LFM-1 EX
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #72 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 03:36 AM
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Now for a tight budget - (open box) KEF speakers, mainly minor cosmetic blemish > and most
people say the speakers do look good when they get them.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...results/1.html

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30

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post #73 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 04:08 AM
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However my preference for your budget is the JBL Studio 530
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-530...jbl+studio+530

Studio 520 center
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-520...jbl+studio+520

Outlaw LFM-1 EX sub

Denon X2000 receiver
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AVX2...9273265&awdv=c

Or, the E400
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AVRE...9273025&awdv=c

Speaker cable
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Enha...+speaker+cable

Banana plugs - if you desire
http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Direct-...s=banana+plugs

Subwoofer cable
http://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-Se...ubwoofer+cable

This meets your raised $2000 budget - Your call

Nothing wrong if you want to aim for the KEF LS50 speakers.
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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30

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post #74 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
I have been doing this a long time - and one thing you will learn, is to eat the fish and spit out the bones.

You do not need to spend the same amount on the receiver as the speakers.
Also Kimber cable has no special magic, where it will transfigure/transform the sound.

You only need clean power to drive the speakers - and the proper awg speaker wire to transmit the sound.

Be careful about all that snake-oil, there is no magic in that > I can drive $200 speakers and $2,500 ones
with The Same Receiver and the Same speaker Cable!!!!!

Now there are a lot of good speakers out there - and $2000 can get you a nice system - and most of that
should be put towards the speakers - the speakers make the biggest difference in sound - and the key is
to place them properly.
+1

Accessores4less has the Denon X2000 (factory refurbished/factory warrantied) for under $300. That receiver would be a great pairing with any speakers in your budget range and let you put more money toward better speakers.

Then go ahead and order either the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus or LFM-1 EX while they are on sale. They absolutely cannot be beat at their current prices, and you really will appreciate what they can do for your setup.

Your questions are answered:
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post #75 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivermacias View Post
I'll be going to best buy today with the Magnolia center and listen at different bookshelfs, hopefully they have a good selection. After that I'll be going to my friends house to listen to the KEF's, but I also have in mind that the KEF's are in a home theater which will be calibrated very well and in an ideal situation.

What I want to listen for is crisp sound (such as in a movie when glass shatters that crisp sound of individual glass pieces hitting the ground) but again I also want them to sound good with music. Hey I'm being picky but when dropping good money why not right, after all its a hobby.
I am seeing a lot of different suggestions and a lot of different types of speakers. There are some basic questions besides budget that make a big difference in the types of speakers that you might be interested in:

1) What is the primary use? Home theater or music?

Normally, those who are primarily interested in home theater look for speakers with more impact, sensitivity, and greater maximum SPL (sound pressure level) capabilities. For music, things like tonal accuracy, detail, and imaging are more important at the sacrifice of lower sensitivity and max SPL. It is very hard (and very expensive) to get both of these things.

2) What type of speaker "sound" do you like? Only you can answer this question - there are many different types of speaker sound:

Forward / slightly bright (Paradigm, Polk), Warm (KEF, Mordaunt-Short), high efficiency horn (Klipsch, JBL), electrostatic panel (Martin Logan), etc

When you say "crisp" that usually means that you prefer a Forward / slightly bright speaker. Warm speakers will have less emphasis on the highs and will be less fatuiging to listen to for long periods but would probably not be referred to as "crisp". On the other side, high efficiency horn / compression drivers will give you a lot more sound and will be very crisp but may cause listening fatigue after some time - again you have to listen to them yourself to see what you like.

I've had several of these over the years (KEF, Paradigm, NHT) and as my tastes (and probably my hearing) have changed I've ended up liking mostly Forward / slightly bright speakers. The exception is probably the NHT which is a little less bright (but still not "warm"), I still like their sound and the new Classic line is even better - more neutral. My newest Paradigms are also a little less bright - more toward neutral.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
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post #76 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 10:24 AM
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Agree with others - the KEFs are excellent speakers and have great imaging and detail but as others have also said they are low sensitivity and will need a great sub to achieve full range sound - certainly a different class of speakers but in a whole different price range. With low sensitivity and limited bass response (compared to a cheaper tower speaker) comes the requirement of more needed amplifier power and bass management for movies (this is standard) AND music (which is not always standard in all AVRs).

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
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post #77 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 10:26 AM
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Agreed.

Spending a lot of money on expensive cable wires and a power plug like your friend has is not the way to go for best SQ. Audio science does not provide evidence that supports that they will improve sound quality, but it has repeatedly proven that people can talk themselves into believing that the sound is better.

As for the JBLs that zieglj01 is recommending, I have not heard them. But I do trust his recommendations. He always gives good advice

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If you get a chance to hear the JBL's, you should, they really are fantastic speakers, that to me do very well with both music and theater, but my main focus is on music.
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post #79 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so I'll be ordering the LFM-1 EX tonight. Now for receiver, Denon E400 vs X2000, is there a difference?
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post #80 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
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Ok, so I'll be ordering the LFM-1 EX tonight. Now for receiver, Denon E400 vs X2000, is there a difference?
Here you go
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vloCuDK...N-Command.html

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #81 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
That comparison doesn't point out a primary difference. E400 has MultEQ vs the better MultEQ XT in the X2000.

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post #82 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 03:04 PM
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That comparison doesn't point out a primary difference. E400 has MultEQ vs the better MultEQ XT in the X2000.
That is why we have you here.

I am not one for Audyssey and the likes (competitors).

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #83 of 89 Old 07-18-2014, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone heard the Infinity Reference.
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post #84 of 89 Old 07-19-2014, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
Not sure how it compares to the PB1000, but this Outlaw sub is also apparently on sale:

http://outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html
Thanks, I just ordered the EX ($599) pretty good deal, no tax, free shipping. Still on the hunt for speakers!
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post #85 of 89 Old 07-19-2014, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post

The Infinity Primus are a good value, but limited. I highly recommend moving up to something with a 6" woofer and a 1" dome tweeter (not the tiny "balanced dome" like in the Primus). That will give you MUCH better sound than the cheaper stuff. So start with 2 speakers and upgrade later.
Your product knowledge appears to be deficient. The Primus P163 has a 6 1/2" woofer, and the Primus P363 has two of them. I've used P160s and P163s in several audio systems in public places and it seems to work out very well.

http://www.cnet.com/products/infinit...us-p163/specs/


I own a pair of 363s. but for reasons of matching to my listening room's layout, I replaced them with 3 PC351 in LCR configuration. This has worked out very well.




This system has pretty good dynamic range, and has been measured developing peak SPLs in excess of 110 dB SPL in conjunction with 2 12 inch subwoofers (one Paradigm). In conjunction with Audyssey XT in the Denon AVR that powers them, this has turned out to be a very natural sounding system, and in many cases it makes human voices sound like their source is a person standing in the room below the speakers. On good recordings it is very natural, but with poor recordings it tends to demonstrate the failings of the recording.

The Primus series has been around for quite a while and there have been a series of upgrades to most of the models in it. For example there has been a P160, a P161, a P162 and P163 that are very similar with small upgrades, some perhaps only cosmetic.

One of the interesting comparisons that can be made is between the P363 and the highly regarded Paradigm Studio 60. They are very similar in terms of construction and published technical tests suggest that their performance is similar. Of course the Paradigm has finer workmanship in its cabinet and it may also have better QC.
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Last edited by arnyk; 07-19-2014 at 03:37 AM.
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post #86 of 89 Old 07-19-2014, 02:13 PM
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Mmm, the Primus I looked at did not, but I was quickly browsing from low price to high. My bad for not looking more…but bad on Infinity for mixing features within the same lineup.

My main point was for the OP to get something really good, not just something "decent" that so often never gets upgraded. Therefore my insistence on 6.5" woofer and true 1" dome tweeter (or maybe ribbon or Air Motion Transformer etc etc).

An Infinity model meeting that would be well engineered within the limits of $$$; I know some of those guys and they are very smart.
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post #87 of 89 Old 07-25-2014, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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So for everyone dying to know I ended up going with the following:


Denon X2000
KEF LS50
Outlaw EX sub
Transdeco stands


i'll be upgrading receiver during Christmas time. I'll post pics once its set up, probably late next weeks since everything is getting shipped. The Outlaw sub came in, looked likes a beast!!, Told my gf its a corner table to put a little plant on top Then I took her to olive garden, she knows something is up...
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post #88 of 89 Old 08-05-2014, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
That's great that you are going out and auditioning speakers. And it's important to be picky.

While auditioning several speakers at one facility, I recommend taking along a dB meter in order to level match the speakers you are auditioning (I've recommended this several times in the past weeks). It will present you with a more level playing field. Why? It's human nature to prefer a speaker that is just a bit louder than another that you've listened to. If each speaker system is being played at the same sound levels, one can concentrate more on the speaker's quality -- articulation, sound stage, smoothness, etc. If you don't have a dB meter, ask that they provide you with one. If they can't do that, you'll have to do the best you can with your ears. Also, bring the music you extremely familiar with and enjoy yourself. Also, at your friend's house, see if he can't demonstrate the KEF's without a subwoofer or other speakers going at the same time.

Let us know how it went.
So here is how it turned out, going to order a single ls50 for the center and eventually the surrounds.
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post #89 of 89 Old 08-05-2014, 11:57 PM
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Congratulations, drivermacias! I'm really happy for you. You've made some outstanding selections. We'll be anxious to hear from you once everything is set up.
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